He started off by saying QB stats were meaningless (okay, that's his opinion) and the eyeball test is the only true measure. Okay, his opinion. But then he goes on to USE stats to make his case against Jones.
is an example of how radio guys and guys on ESPN just say crap because its entertainment its not real analysis. There are some that know what they're talking about and give good analysis but most of these guys are just taking contrary positions to cause controversy and get ratings.
He started off by saying QB stats were meaningless (okay, that's his opinion) and the eyeball test is the only true measure. Okay, his opinion. But then he goes on to USE stats to make his case against Jones.
So he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Exactly what I was thinking. He is just trying to cover himself up after criticising Giants for choosing Jones over Haskins
How many of these comments would be more favorable to the guy Â
He seemed to have taken shots in some places and taken what the defense has given him in other places. He's hit on all of his longer throws. This stat also doesn't give him credit for hitting guys in stride and getting yards after the catch. Today's game is all about short and intermediate throws, so even if he's really good at that I don't see a problem.
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
I get the idea behind air yards but it seems like it next logical step would be to look at the deeper passes. You can either say preseason doesn't matter or things are looking way up. Dislocating both arms to reach for another scenario is just pathetic.
Left 0-10: 5/8 59 yards
Mid 0-10: 4/4 53 yards
Right 0-10: 9/9 106 yards
Left 11-20: 2/2 46 yards 1 TD
Right 11-20: 1/2 12 yards 1 TD
Left 20+: 2/2 67 yards
Middle 20+ 1/2 35 yards
Right 20+: 1/1 25 yards
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
What's bullshit is that I think he completed every long throw Â
he's made, but because he didn't have as many as some other guys he's a game manager? And once again short and intermediate throws are important parts of the game, why are we not giving him credit for those and giving him credit for hitting guys in stride and getting YAC?
But bear in mind that he put out a video titled "The Giants CANNOT afford to pass on Dwayne Haskins," and then absolutely destroyed them after the draft. Completely and utterly destroyed them.
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Is that he starts off saying that people will use stats that prove their point if they like the player and vice versa if they don't and that is a bad thing.
He then proceeds to do exactly the same thing by picking out a seldom used stat to make his point...LOL
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
I'm not a fan of this video because I have a feeling he's a) trying to be a contrarian b) trying to cover his own ass. What I meant that in general, the guy isn't a scrub is one of the better analysts out there. That's why it sounds like my opinions here are conflicted. In general, I like the guy but I think he's while not 100% off base here, has ulterior motives in this video.
If being a game manager is so easy and preseason doesn't matter, how comes no one in at least 13 years has been able to replicated Jones's numbers in preseason?
Is useless if you can't admit your mistakes. I certainly can't say for sure that is what is happening here, but it doesn't seem that unlikely given some of the feedback by posters I trust.
RE: How many of these comments would be more favorable to the guy Â
But bear in mind that he put out a video titled "The Giants CANNOT afford to pass on Dwayne Haskins," and then absolutely destroyed them after the draft. Completely and utterly destroyed them.
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Link - ( New Window )
That's probably what put me off the most about this video. He shit on other people for confirmation bias whereas here he clearly has it himself. Disappointing video from a guy that I really like. I thought he was above this nonsense.
There will be extended resistance to accepting Jones as a success... Â
Was “maybe we should be praising Shurmur..” as play calling yielded passes to wide open receivers. Of course that’s a stretch as DJ fit some really nice stuff in. But if he thinks we’ve got a bunch wide open now, wait till SB gets on the field.
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Also, if we're penalizing QBs for their coaches putting them in a position to succeed then Tom Brady is just an average quarterback.
Was “maybe we should be praising Shurmur..” as play calling yielded passes to wide open receivers. Of course that’s a stretch as DJ fit some really nice stuff in. But if he thinks we’ve got a bunch wide open now, wait till SB gets on the field.
Is useless if you can't admit your mistakes. I certainly can't say for sure that is what is happening here, but it doesn't seem that unlikely given some of the feedback by posters I trust.
Maybe one day he'll do a video like this for Daniel Jones:
Was “maybe we should be praising Shurmur..” as play calling yielded passes to wide open receivers. Of course that’s a stretch as DJ fit some really nice stuff in. But if he thinks we’ve got a bunch wide open now, wait till SB gets on the field.
Agreed. But a) I would have liked more examples vs just a quick mention and b) while I'm all about coaches making things simpler & cutting down decision trees esp for QBs, does a good play design detract from the QB's solid execution of it? So much that DJ isn't this good, but Murray & Haskins (who we didn't bother to watch tho it's a comparison) never run these kinds of plays? Maybe they suck at short-mid yardage accuracy? Or make bad decisions to check out of the 1st read due to hesitation / mis-reads, or a tendency to move in the pocket or run?
Really awful analysis. Not because it was anti-DJ, just poorly constructed
Tom Brady in 2018 averaged 7.7 yards per intended air yards which ranked him 24th.
Big Ben had 7.7
Drew Brees had 7.1
Luck had 7.6
Dude put out a good video last year showing how to stop the Saints because their offense is predicated on long drives full of short passes. Now it's a bad thing. He's contradicting himself. Outside of a season or 2, that's all Tom Brady has done himself. This is nonsense.
Also if Pat Shurmur IS putting him in a position to succeed Â
BB is phenomenal at this, even if Brady is so great (he is)
Cassell, Brissett, Garrapolo...IMO making it easier on your players doesn't make them worse players (tho I get what he's trying to say). Esp if you're watching them execute it correctly and w/ consistency
So he’s saying jones has made “easy” throws. How about timing accuracy and mechanics and manipulating the defense. That doesn’t matter? He says they are easy throws but let’s give him credit..... Very very stupid video and he contradicts himself throughout it.
I don't mind when critics say we should pump the brakes Â
But this is incomplete analysis. So Jones tends to throw "safer", shorter passes than Haskins, but we don't take into account his ability to place the ball nicely, giving his receivers opportunities to get YAC?
And the "coach is putting him in easy positions to succeed" argument is already getting old. Gee, isn't that the function of a coach?
This is the hill he's willing to die on? By my count only 7 of these QBs are even any good, out of the remaining 10, 8 were nothing special or young but didn't have amazing seasons and 2 were guys like Dalton and Smith who are meh. 5 QBs including career backup Fitzpatrick and mediocre Jameis Winston had better stats than Patrick Mahomes. As already mentioned, some of the best QBs in the NFL didn't make this list. This stat is nonsense. You might as well just pick random QB names out of a bag. Honestly, a disappointing video by a guy trying to put out edgy commentary and save face. He's a guy that as I said, I thought was above that. Too bad.
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
He never liked Jones to begin with. He will make excuses he's blue in the face.
Suggesting that Jones ball placement on the touchdown Â
was "the same" as Haskins on the INT is a joke. In one case, the ball was outside of coverage at the edge of the endzone and exactly on the receiver. In Haskins case, the ball was inside of the coverage and closer to the defender than the receiver.
I like this guy but to then base his entire argument on Jones' first professional drive is crap.
And the stat that he thinks is so telling: Jones maybe throwing it shorter than his gross yardage, but he is throwing it with enough accuracy and touch that his receivers are getting great yards after catch. That part of the play isn't just the receiver, it is the play of the QB.
to me is it mainly means a different thing - a negative-ish comment saying a QB doesn't have a big arm or gunslinger-esque plays in him. Which on it's own doesn't correlate to winning. Iirc, Cutler, George, guys like that...well they aren't game managers, but I bet you wish they managed the game better than just using the big arm
Mean time, the greats ALL are great game managers big arm or not. IMO most of them just do it automatically, if not have coaching staffs that handle it well. But to act like Brady, Brees, Montana those guys weren't efficient w/ clock, TOs, if not understanding game situations in general...
Game Manager is a funny label IMO. Few if any QBs or coaches win SBs without doing it well
As already mentioned Andy Dalton and Alex Smith were where Jones would have ended up. But they were better than Drew Brees and Tom Brady. Imagine if by happenstance Drew Brees and Tom Brady were BETTER than they were and in those spots this video wouldn't even exist. Randomly two of the bigger game managers ending up on a more or less random list proves his point. His point would have been a lot more difficult to make if he said: "This puts him in between Tom Brady and Drew Brees". So he's cherry-picking stats something fierce here. Exactly what he complained about people doing.
Average intended air yards is a useless stat. Mr "Fuck it I'm Going Â
Deep" Rex Grossman would be HOF bound. And while he is technically correct about the Jets TD pass in theory, he put the ball were the safety wasn't getting it on the field.
and Brady and Brees being not even in the picture shows you that this is a system stat more than anything. Horrible, horrible take.
Right because making accurate passes underneath to maximize Yac is where the game is at. Brees is probably dead fucking last. YPA and TD/Int ratio to me are clearly the most important stats when trying to look at stats and QB play. Everything else falls behind.
not sure that focusing in on "intended air yards" as the most important statistic is the best type of analysis, especially for the preseason. NFL coaches typically have rookie QBs throw shorter, safer, passes in order to understandably build their confidence. Those throws by definition will be for smaller "intended air yards."
Jones has also made extremely good decisions, as well as multiple reads on many throws. His ball placement has been fantastic. As far as his TD against the Jets, the DB almost certainly could have at least knocked it down if he had turned around. But it would have sailed over Fowler's head if Jones had thrown it all the way to the back pylon.
I understand and fully support tempering expectations because it is preseason. I also admit that I did not want Jones at #6 or #17. But his decision making, accuracy, toughness, and leadership have been outstanding.
RE: Average intended air yards is a useless stat. Mr Â
Deep" Rex Grossman would be HOF bound. And while he is technically correct about the Jets TD pass in theory, he put the ball were the safety wasn't getting it on the field.
Hahaha Zeke your comment about Grossman made me laugh, good one!
So he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
It works better for his point....he warned statistics can be used in providing points and did that exact thing
So he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Exactly what I was thinking. He is just trying to cover himself up after criticising Giants for choosing Jones over Haskins
No I didn't click the link
It works better for his point....he warned statistics can be used in providing points and did that exact thing
Yeah, that's the other point. He used his very first drive in his very first game. Sure, that was a relatively safe drive, but it was also his first.
And if it was favorable you would probably be one of the first to dismiss.
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Left 0-10: 5/8 59 yards
Mid 0-10: 4/4 53 yards
Right 0-10: 9/9 106 yards
Left 11-20: 2/2 46 yards 1 TD
Right 11-20: 1/2 12 yards 1 TD
Left 20+: 2/2 67 yards
Middle 20+ 1/2 35 yards
Right 20+: 1/1 25 yards
25-30 371 yards 2 TD
2 drops
Quote:
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Link - ( New Window )
He then proceeds to do exactly the same thing by picking out a seldom used stat to make his point...LOL
It works better for his point....he warned statistics can be used in providing points and did that exact thing
YUP
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Quote:
In comment 14542575 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
Do what you wish. Perhaps he has credentials to backup his analysis. But if he did call Jones a game manager isn't that a bit soon to declare as is declaring Jones a success?
I'm not a fan of this video because I have a feeling he's a) trying to be a contrarian b) trying to cover his own ass. What I meant that in general, the guy isn't a scrub is one of the better analysts out there. That's why it sounds like my opinions here are conflicted. In general, I like the guy but I think he's while not 100% off base here, has ulterior motives in this video.
If being a game manager is so easy and preseason doesn't matter, how comes no one in at least 13 years has been able to replicated Jones's numbers in preseason?
Based on the fact that Jones has been amazing this preseason, probably a lot more.
Strange comment.
So, there might be a bit of confirmation bias at play here.
The link below will take you to the Haskins video and his recap of the NFC East draft.
Link - ( New Window )
That's probably what put me off the most about this video. He shit on other people for confirmation bias whereas here he clearly has it himself. Disappointing video from a guy that I really like. I thought he was above this nonsense.
Big Ben had 7.7
Drew Brees had 7.1
Luck had 7.6
This guy starts with all this talk about being objective, not looking at stats (since people misread them). Then uses 'intended air yards' only, and basically somehow says because DJ's tend to be smaller, the other 2 are better somehow?
Then dissects one drive, a rook QBs first no less, and basically due to one shaky throw says it's not a good drive? Basically says 'it's good accuracy, decision-making, execution BUT..." and then says it's Shurmur & play design only? Yeah, he executed it...that's a good, not bad thing. So if that fade was a perfect throw, is DJ the best? Awful analysis
Then, after saying he's going to use tape...where's even ONE drive of Haskins or Murray? Literally contradicts himself, and makes very little sense as an overall argument. Honestly after saying he wanted to remove agendas...he clearly had one whether it's staying w/ his original scouting reports or just proving the preseason narratives are preemptive & small samples...didn't need 15 min of vid to know that
Also, if we're penalizing QBs for their coaches putting them in a position to succeed then Tom Brady is just an average quarterback.
This !
Maybe one day he'll do a video like this for Daniel Jones:
I was wrong - Patrick Mahomes is ridiculously good
Agreed. But a) I would have liked more examples vs just a quick mention and b) while I'm all about coaches making things simpler & cutting down decision trees esp for QBs, does a good play design detract from the QB's solid execution of it? So much that DJ isn't this good, but Murray & Haskins (who we didn't bother to watch tho it's a comparison) never run these kinds of plays? Maybe they suck at short-mid yardage accuracy? Or make bad decisions to check out of the 1st read due to hesitation / mis-reads, or a tendency to move in the pocket or run?
Really awful analysis. Not because it was anti-DJ, just poorly constructed
Big Ben had 7.7
Drew Brees had 7.1
Luck had 7.6
Dude put out a good video last year showing how to stop the Saints because their offense is predicated on long drives full of short passes. Now it's a bad thing. He's contradicting himself. Outside of a season or 2, that's all Tom Brady has done himself. This is nonsense.
Cassell, Brissett, Garrapolo...IMO making it easier on your players doesn't make them worse players (tho I get what he's trying to say). Esp if you're watching them execute it correctly and w/ consistency
And the "coach is putting him in easy positions to succeed" argument is already getting old. Gee, isn't that the function of a coach?
2) Jameis Winston
3) Ryan Fitzpatrick
4) Sam Darnold
5) Russell Wilson
6) Patrick Mahomes
7) Baker Mayfield
8) Jared Goff
9) Aaron Rodgers
10) Mitchell Trubisky
11) Deshaun Watson
12) Matt Ryan
13) Joe Flacco
14) Lamar Jackson
15) Josh Rosen
16) Andy Dalton
17) Alex Smith
This is the hill he's willing to die on? By my count only 7 of these QBs are even any good, out of the remaining 10, 8 were nothing special or young but didn't have amazing seasons and 2 were guys like Dalton and Smith who are meh. 5 QBs including career backup Fitzpatrick and mediocre Jameis Winston had better stats than Patrick Mahomes. As already mentioned, some of the best QBs in the NFL didn't make this list. This stat is nonsense. You might as well just pick random QB names out of a bag. Honestly, a disappointing video by a guy trying to put out edgy commentary and save face. He's a guy that as I said, I thought was above that. Too bad.
Can he still be a bust? Can he still suck? Sure.
But no one expected him to be THIS good.
Can he still be a bust? Can he still suck? Sure.
But no one expected him to be THIS good.
In a more "water downed" than ever preseason. Save the judgement for reg season games. Period..its not like years past .
Quote:
Linking people like this therefore giving them clicks?
No I didn't click the link
The guy is very good. I don't know what "people like this means". He's actually very good. I'm not happy that he didn't give Jones more credit, but we can't link people that don't agree with us 100%?
He never liked Jones to begin with. He will make excuses he's blue in the face.
I like this guy but to then base his entire argument on Jones' first professional drive is crap.
And the stat that he thinks is so telling: Jones maybe throwing it shorter than his gross yardage, but he is throwing it with enough accuracy and touch that his receivers are getting great yards after catch. That part of the play isn't just the receiver, it is the play of the QB.
Jones is making the guy look like he didn’t have a clue what he was talking about...not surprised the guy is trying to take shots at DJ.
Mean time, the greats ALL are great game managers big arm or not. IMO most of them just do it automatically, if not have coaching staffs that handle it well. But to act like Brady, Brees, Montana those guys weren't efficient w/ clock, TOs, if not understanding game situations in general...
Game Manager is a funny label IMO. Few if any QBs or coaches win SBs without doing it well
Right because making accurate passes underneath to maximize Yac is where the game is at. Brees is probably dead fucking last. YPA and TD/Int ratio to me are clearly the most important stats when trying to look at stats and QB play. Everything else falls behind.
Jones has also made extremely good decisions, as well as multiple reads on many throws. His ball placement has been fantastic. As far as his TD against the Jets, the DB almost certainly could have at least knocked it down if he had turned around. But it would have sailed over Fowler's head if Jones had thrown it all the way to the back pylon.
I understand and fully support tempering expectations because it is preseason. I also admit that I did not want Jones at #6 or #17. But his decision making, accuracy, toughness, and leadership have been outstanding.
Hahaha Zeke your comment about Grossman made me laugh, good one!