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Sy'56's Giants-Bengals Game Review Now Available

Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/24/2019 8:54 pm
FYI...



Preseason Game Review: New York Giants 25 – Cincinnati Bengals 23 - ( New Window )
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RE: RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 8/25/2019 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14543766 giantstock said:
Quote:

WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?

I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.

You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."

This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?

Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."

You are twisting his comments.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14543807 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14543777 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14543766 giantstock said:


Quote:





Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager



I love it.

Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.

Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."

I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.

If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.


I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.

Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.

Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...

1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games

You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
Not overly concerned about fumbles  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/25/2019 12:59 pm : link
I wouldn't doubt if Jones was told not to run, meanwhile Lauletta is running all over the place. And no screens or fancy stuff, so rushers get to pin their years back. Also no Barkley.
imo  
Bill2 : 8/25/2019 1:00 pm : link
This is the wrong question. Its the wrong goal. Its slightly cart before horse

The question is not Eli vs Jones. The goal is not a transition, the goal is a successful transition

Its when will the OL play enough so that we can see it is good enough against first tier NFl line and blitzing concepts?

When do the right mix of WR's show consistent route running and separation?

When those are as "roughly right" as they are going to be this year, then the foundation for a successful transition is present and the clock can begin ticking.

imo
I would add  
Bill2 : 8/25/2019 1:13 pm : link
that if he never took snaps under center and those are muscle memory tasks that we all assume he will master why not give him more time to accumulate unthinking consistency?

if where to look and how to mask where the ball is going has to be faster and more subtle at NFl speed...keep doing it

if he is on a tremendous learning curve...get to whatever plateau he is getting to

Another month while the OL and Wr jell is not going to hurt

Nor ...nor...nor is the value of the opposing DC's seeing that you have to respect and plan for SB and EE and that the inner OL does very well against the run and the pass.

No Giants Qb has had a DC who had to account for a running game or a TE mismatch or a Giants OL that was competent.

Let him transition when the Defenses are guessing more about the 2019 Giants playbook, a half second and a step back. And while the Ol provides a half second more (and they will need to do that for we don't have a quick separating WR crew beyond SS and Tate).

imo every edge counts in a transition...lets get those first
RE: RE: RE: .  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14543835 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14543766 giantstock said:


Quote:



WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?

I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.



You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."

This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?

Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."

You are twisting his comments.


Am I? BTW thanks for replying in a civil manner.

Where am I wrong? Please don't take my question wrong-- I am not being hostile with you. I have so many posters telling me I'm miserable. I'm not - and I am not angry in asking this. -- What am I twisting? I don't see what I'm twisting. He's ripping me for the fumbles yet I have also added that I believe rookies tend to make more mistakes. I made that comment before his initial rip into me.

This is what I said when I replied to eric at 12:29am:

"BUT IN THE INTERIM-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past."

JAY ON THE ISLAND-- - so arc is focusing on the fumbles. But I used more than fumbles, didn't I? I mean look at my 12:29 am post. I I am using more than fumbles and speaking of a rookie-- then isn't he ignoring what I said he was ignoring (History of the NFL with rookie QB's) if he is so focused on fumbles and not inclduing rookie mistakes?

**At 1:41 am I rpelied to deejboy the follwoing: - Beofr earc psoted ot me:

"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."

Where am I in the wrong here? I've read arc before -- I've always thought he was respectful. Now I think he went off the depend. From what I've just replied to you here-- I'm speaking of fumbles AND also overall rookie performance. He keeps coming back at me "literally" with fumbles. He is responding to me. SO he thinks my view is wrong, right? My view was a reply to SY when he spoke of "Why not Jones?" SY spoke of the 3 games. The three games were enough of a concern that SY made a special note to remark upon the fumbling issue. We're not going to gloss over it, are we? We're not ignroing his fine performances, are we? We can remark that he is accurate. But yet we can't remark -- even as sy suggests- there is a concern with fumbles right now.// along with concern all the time for rookies? ANd now I'll be bitched at by other posters again "for being a hater."
uggh  
Bill2 : 8/25/2019 1:16 pm : link
no Giants QB since 2010 had the luxury of a good interior OL, good blitz pick up and a running game that had to be respected.

Put that on NFL tape in 2019 then talk transition
Bill2 makes a good point, but to the fumbling issue  
ColHowPepper : 8/25/2019 1:19 pm : link
and w/o parsing the verbiage of who argued what, I'm firmly in arc's camp simply because it it clear to my eyes--and from everything we've heard about his prowess on the basketball court as well as on the football field--that DJ is a vastly better athlete, quicker, more coordinated throughout his body than Eli, from whom we've seen mind boggling feats of stumble-itis, ball slipping from hands w/o a touch, etc.

Doesn't mean DJ won't be a fumbler, but the three he has had:
i) snap from C, arguably he pulled out early, lost the handle (even though someone said the C began his move too soon
ii) ball batted from his hands on the rush: yes, another lesson in learning to take care of the ball when bullets are flying, but the ball was swatted from his hand; that Slade blew his blocking assignment is a factor, but it wasn't as if Jones lost his grip
iii) DJ was shitwhaled from both sides. What QB doesn't lose that ball?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14543846 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14543807 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14543777 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14543766 giantstock said:


Quote:






I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.

Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.

Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...

1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games

You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.


Really? You didn't misrepresent my post? My 1st post on this thread was below. I responded to SY. What did SY say? He said teh follwoing: "However, we are now looking at 3 fumbles in 3 games. He has to clean that up."

SY identified a concern, did he not? I agreed with his concern. If it means totally nothing then don't think ti should even be mentioned? You took the 1st sentence of my post and didn't read little else, didn;t you?

***Read the post I replied to Jay on the Island. Then read the ENTIRE post of mine and don't get so wrapped up into "number of fumbles" vs SY's comment "WHy not Jones?

**I am talking more than fumbles. Yes my 1st sentence was just fumbles but I elaborated before you replied to me to include rookie mistakes. You keep fighting me on literal # of fumbles while I bring up also being a rookie. Rookies are gonan make a ton of mistakes INCLUDING fumbles. That;'s hwy "No Jones" was my response to SY when he asked "Why not Jones?"


Fro Giantstock:
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.

You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."

But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
ARC- when you said  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 1:33 pm : link

"So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts."

We're getting into a circular fight but where did I ever suggest "bench him forever?"

I'm interested to hear what Jay on the Island has to say. At some point our argument has to slow down. But I aks this honestly-- what you said above in quotes--

How is that NOT mis-representing my posts? I don't mean to be mean but where did I say this?????
Looks..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/25/2019 1:35 pm : link
like I'll have to try a different cereal.

I'm striking out on the decoder ring....
Thought this was a fascinating stat Eli v Jones in the preseason  
PhilSimms15 : 8/25/2019 1:37 pm : link
All preseason it was clear Jones was comfortable throwing long. And whether it’s his OL or not, Eli has become more tentative in that area.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Thought this was a fascinating stat Eli v Jones in the preseason  
BestFeature : 8/25/2019 1:38 pm : link
In comment 14543946 PhilSimms15 said:
Quote:
All preseason it was clear Jones was comfortable throwing long. And whether it’s his OL or not, Eli has become more tentative in that area. Link - ( New Window )


But something something intended yards something something game manager.
RE: Bill2 makes a good point, but to the fumbling issue  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14543919 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and w/o parsing the verbiage of who argued what, I'm firmly in arc's camp simply because it it clear to my eyes--and from everything we've heard about his prowess on the basketball court as well as on the football field--that DJ is a vastly better athlete, quicker, more coordinated throughout his body than Eli, from whom we've seen mind boggling feats of stumble-itis, ball slipping from hands w/o a touch, etc.

Doesn't mean DJ won't be a fumbler, but the three he has had:
i) snap from C, arguably he pulled out early, lost the handle (even though someone said the C began his move too soon
ii) ball batted from his hands on the rush: yes, another lesson in learning to take care of the ball when bullets are flying, but the ball was swatted from his hand; that Slade blew his blocking assignment is a factor, but it wasn't as if Jones lost his grip
iii) DJ was shitwhaled from both sides. What QB doesn't lose that ball?


coll-- let me ask you things please don;t take this like I'm mad or anything.You see SY's comments of he signaled out fumbles have to stop. You agree with that, right?

Then read SY's question -- comment "Why not Jones?" He is asking "why not Jones to start over Eli," is he not?

Then if you add the fumbles to Jones overall being a rookie (please read below and add being a rookie to the fumbles) - is what I'm saying below (which I said before ARC even responded to me) without merit? I made the below post at 1:41 am on this thread:

"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
Thank you Sy always appreciate what you bring to BBI  
Bluesbreaker : 8/25/2019 1:49 pm : link
I think we can say it is fair to point out the fumbles
and I am sure Jones learns from everyone .
The center snap exchange is one that Jones can and will solve
also the clock in his head is something that he will only
learn by playing but he has to protect the ball at all times.
I can't blame him for the hit thats on Soldier he had no
time to react to that . So he has lost only one fumble .
That matters as well .
I still think starting Eli is the correct approach and Jones
will likely get his chance sooner than later .
I think Sy's comments are being exaggerated  
Jay on the Island : 8/25/2019 1:49 pm : link
Sure 3 fumbles isn't going to cut it but if you want to evaluate Daniel Jones' ball security then I think looking back to his college performance is the best indicator.

Jones had 19 fumbles and lost 13 of them in 36 career games in college.

For comparison sake Sam Darnold had 21 fumbles with 14 lost in 27 games.

We also need to take into account the fact that Jones is working under center which he rarely if ever did in college. The first fumble against the Bears was just the second time that Jones had worked with Halapio. He didn't practice with the first team offensive line until the Jets preseason game. The next time he worked with them was the Bears game.

The second fumble was on Jones but the other two aren't really his fault. Most QB's would have fumbled just as he did if he is getting crushed from the blind side.
giants  
ColHowPepper : 8/25/2019 1:50 pm : link
with respect, I'm not going to characterize or arbitrate, as I mentioned. I will say that wrt innumerable posts I've written, commenters have heatedly disagreed with or mocked the post when, to me, it was apparent that they had not read, had mis-read, or deliberately twisted a reading. It's a BBI specialty, and I am NOT suggesting that either arc or you did this vis à vis each other. Not going there.

Let it go. I stand simply with the notion that Jones is a way better athlete, and I suspect if he is 'prone' to fumbles it will be because of the factors Bill2 is adducing and not because he inexplicably loses the handle, those 'Oh, Eli' moments.
RE: ARC- when you said  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14543941 giantstock said:
Quote:

"So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts."

We're getting into a circular fight but where did I ever suggest "bench him forever?"

I'm interested to hear what Jay on the Island has to say. At some point our argument has to slow down. But I aks this honestly-- what you said above in quotes--

How is that NOT mis-representing my posts? I don't mean to be mean but where did I say this?????


I didn't think I needed to explain that part of my post was supposed to be an exaggeration -

You keep saying Jones is fumbling too much. Isn't that the basis of your argument?

If you're scared to play him over Eli for that reason, it's not a good reason. We have a 15 year sample size of Eli turning the ball over more than a lot of other QB's. Ball security is not the reason you go with Manning over Jones now.

So, the obvious hyperbole in my post is meant to raise the general point that if you don't trust Jones to protect the football, how is he ever going to get better by standing on the sidelines? This wasn't an issue @ Duke, and a couple of then weren't even totally on him. You're projecting outward and drawing conclusions based on a tiny sample size - and then ignoring that we have a massive sample size where Eli has had issues turning the ball over.

I'm not even against starting Manning - which is the funny part.

I just won't pretend it has anything to do with ball security because it shouldn't, and it doesn't.
RE: I think Sy's comments are being exaggerated  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14543960 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Sure 3 fumbles isn't going to cut it but if you want to evaluate Daniel Jones' ball security then I think looking back to his college performance is the best indicator.

Jones had 19 fumbles and lost 13 of them in 36 career games in college.

For comparison sake Sam Darnold had 21 fumbles with 14 lost in 27 games.

We also need to take into account the fact that Jones is working under center which he rarely if ever did in college. The first fumble against the Bears was just the second time that Jones had worked with Halapio. He didn't practice with the first team offensive line until the Jets preseason game. The next time he worked with them was the Bears game.

The second fumble was on Jones but the other two aren't really his fault. Most QB's would have fumbled just as he did if he is getting crushed from the blind side.


Okay. It's over. If ARC wants to rip into me again or others on here - I'll let it go. I've said my peace.

I'll just conclude with as I've said before. As rookies- these type of mistakes don't go away. Year 1 it is inherent for a rookie to make these mistakes frequently. These fumbles highlight what a rookie is and the growing pains that you have to go through. It will be more than juts fumbles. It will be the whole package. That why we should say in week 1 "That's why you don't start Jones."

In week 1 as a team you still have aspirations for a successful season (as fans we can easily doubt it but imo the team/mgmt/ownership can never or with rare exceptions). You go with Eli imo because with a "potentially good OL" imo you would expect Eli would be less prone to errors due to his experience.

*Thus to highlight Jimmy Johnson's quote again from years ago while speaking of Randall Cunningham making a spectacular play he said to paraphrase- "I don't judge a QB by the plays he makes, but by the plays he doesn't make." IMo same goes with Jones potential vs Eli's experience. Give me the experience to start the year for THIS team.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2019 2:30 pm : link
I'm not going to rip into you or be a dick; I just simply disagree with the focus on fumbling as a reason to play Manning over Jones when we already know for a fact that Eli is as susceptible to losing the football or throwing a pick as any starter in the league. I just don't believe in that angle here.

Eli may well give us a better chance to win out of the gates. And that's why he's the starter for now. Because the org believes he's more ready to handle the games that count at this point in time.

If that turns out to not be the case, and we're not producing offensively and aren't winning - Eli should sit.

Of course Jones is going to make mistakes. But, taking 3 fumbles in 3 games and then proclaiming some nonsense about a 1 fumble per game average is just disingenuous nonsense. It doesn't mean that average is going to accelerate or even maintain. Based on Jones' performance in college, I really don't think this is going to be a major issue.

A lot of QB's are going to struggle to hold onto the ball when they get clocked from behind and then sandwiched on top of it.

The transfer was shoddy on the first one, too.

The only one that's really been all on Daniel so far is the one where he got stripped. Shit happens. He'll learn from it. But not by watching.

The only way to improve in many cases is to play.
Of course Jones will make mistakes, he's a rookie  
Jay on the Island : 8/25/2019 2:41 pm : link
There will be interceptions, fumbles, miscommunications, etc. There will be growing pains but that's the norm. However, suggesting that Jones will be a fumble machine based on those three preseason fumbles is a bit absurd.

Keep in mind both Eli and Jones  
Giantz_comeback : 8/25/2019 4:09 pm : link
Have been playing most of the time without our top 3-4 weapons in Tate, Shepard and Barkely as well as Engram. So we were essentially 2nd- 3rd string with our skill players from the opening whistle.

With Tate Shep Barkley and Engram and with the improved OL I think this O is going to play on levek or better than what we saw 2nd half last year when we averaged like 27 ppg (much without OBJ).

Shurmur's passing game puts pressure on all levels and we've seen 2nd and 3rd string receivers get consistently open both late in the year last year as well as preseason. I'm not really concerned about the O.

The D's youth at many critical starting spots (though there are signs of great talent potential) is the key factor especially early on.

They are likely going to be fooled by a lot of the little wrinkles teams will be throwing at us. Like we have seen in preseason already.

RE: Of course Jones will make mistakes, he's a rookie  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14544020 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
There will be interceptions, fumbles, miscommunications, etc. There will be growing pains but that's the norm. However, suggesting that Jones will be a fumble machine based on those three preseason fumbles is a bit absurd.


Fumbling is part of the mistakes that a rookie will do. Again the issue was SY asking "Why not Jones?" WHile Sy mentioned Jones has "fumbling to clean up," it is obvious that in the limited time Jones has played he;s had 3 fumbles. You can't ignore that in one breath then in the other praise how well his passing is and the rest of his game. That wreaks of gross homerism.

Here is the overall absurdity if you take this step by step:

1-- Daniel Jones Shouldn't start because of his lack of experience. However

2-- After the few games one can conclude the fumbles don;t matter.

3-- After a few games one can conclude that he has been so accurate he will throw so few interceptions.

4-- AFter a few games one can conclude he will be so accurate that he'll have a high completion rate.

5-- After a few games we can conclude he has as strong of an arm if not stronger than Eli.

6-- SO if we want to conclude 3,4 and 5 have merit -- because we've seen it with our won eyes, we are going to arbitrarily discount number2??????

****However if you don't agree with 3,4 and 5-- then it sort of proves my point that you go with the Eli which was my reply to SY, doesn't it? Yet we are still stuck on fumbles? SY brought up fumbles - then asked why Jones. If SY didn't think fumbles were such a big deal he wouldn't have had a special note. You say it was an exaggeration yet he specifically spiked it out on one of his 3 points. That doesn't smell like exaggeration to me otherwise he would not have specifically mentioned it..

Unless anyone thinks we have the perfect rookie QB-- between fumbles, interceptions, and completion % he is going to have some major flaw which factors into why you go with Eli. But fumbles IS A PART of experience. If he is NOT a fumbling machine -- great -- but in his rookie year he is then going to have other flaws.


****You have to go back to the context of the post-- "Why not Jones?" If he is not a fumbling machine in one game then another game interceptions then one game bad reads etc then he is a a QB without flaws which would be ridiculous for a rookie QB.
The fumble stuff  
Giantz_comeback : 8/25/2019 4:38 pm : link
Should get better with experience. Not worried at all.
You guys will argue for hours about anything  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/25/2019 4:44 pm : link
It's impressive.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2019 4:55 pm : link
No one thinks Jones is going to be a "perfect rookie QB" - the point is that you have to look at how the fumbles happened, how he handled this aspect of his game in college, and actually put a little critical thinking into it rather than just look at the stat sheet and say "3 games, 3 fumbles... that's 1 per game, and we can't have that!"

It doesn't work that way.

I don't think anyone realistically expects Jones to continue to complete over 80% of his passes in real games. No one does that.

If we extrapolate what he's done and pace full games out of it, his numbers would be absurd. Everything in each direction is going to settle somewhere in the middle. His fumble pace is not going to stay where it is - nor are his passing numbers.

Jones will make more mistakes and more bad throws when the games count and he's facing starters who aren't holding anything back. But, you can't take a 3 game sample and assume any sort of pace or average based on that.

There are fair reasons to believe Eli affords the Giants a better chance to win - but ball security just shouldn't be one of them. It doesn't make sense.
If dJ8 starts this year  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/25/2019 6:12 pm : link
He will throw for 83% 6000 yds 32/0 td/int and 46 fumbles. FACT.
RE: Thought this was a fascinating stat Eli v Jones in the preseason  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 8/25/2019 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14543946 PhilSimms15 said:
Quote:
All preseason it was clear Jones was comfortable throwing long. And whether it’s his OL or not, Eli has become more tentative in that area. Link - ( New Window )

Throwing long isn't necessarily dependent on throwing time. A short dig route often takes more time to develop than a go or seam route.
There's a certain inconsistency in gauging Jones:  
81_Great_Dane : 8/25/2019 7:13 pm : link
He's fumbled more than anyone would like. We can dismiss that because it's pre-season, I guess.

His stats so far have been undeniably stellar. But if we dismiss the fumbles because it's pre-season, shouldn't we dismiss the stellar stats for the same reason?

He's performed great in a bunch of ways, but he's got some things to fix and clean up. This would make him... ahead of schedule but still a rookie.

Sy wrote:
Quote:
Two thoughts I want to leave you with: What does Manning do that Jones cannot? And why does this team have to be losing, or out of the playoff picture, for Jones to take the job? Eli Manning took the job from Kurt Warner in 2004 when Big Blue was 5-4.
IIRC the Giants had lost two straight and Warner's play was a problem, so that was why they put in Eli. If the Giants are 5-4 and Eli's play is a problem, it's extremely likely that Jones will take Eli's job.

But IMO the more likely situation is: The Giants are 5-4 and Eli's play isn't the problem. If they're losing games 35-31 or winning 42-35, and the problem is the defense, then what? Bench Eli when he's playing well? That's going to be a difficult choice. Then what if Jones comes in and plays like a rookie, even a good rookie. Not as well as Eli. Then you really have a QB controversy.

Can you imagine Shurmur, Gettleman and/or Mara standing in front of a press conference and saying: "Eli is arguably our best quarterback today but Daniel is our future. We have to get him ready for next season, when we think we can really begin our run. So we're going to bite the bullet and maybe let go of a couple of wins for this season. We think this is our fastest route back to the Super Bowl and another Lombardi trophy. And if Daniel learns and improves as fast as he has so far, we don't think we're writing this season off at all." I think that is possible, but they'd have to be willing to stand in the fire for benching the guy who they admit gives them the best chance to win.
Ridiculous  
Bruner4329 : 8/25/2019 7:20 pm : link
Man this Board is getting hard to take with all these moronic comments. Eli has played exactly what 3 or 4 series the entire preseason and people are getting on his case already even though he has looked pretty good. lets see if he starts throwing down field when the season starts. Jones has played well but he has played against second and third stringers and plain vanilla defenses. You can't possibly rate him on the preseason. I like what I see but its not what he would see once the season starts. And please any QB playing in front of a crappy line like Eli has the last 3/4 years would be in the same boat. The amazing think is he wasn't killed.
RE: There's a certain inconsistency in gauging Jones:  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14544255 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
He's fumbled more than anyone would like. We can dismiss that because it's pre-season, I guess.

His stats so far have been undeniably stellar. But if we dismiss the fumbles because it's pre-season, shouldn't we dismiss the stellar stats for the same reason?

He's performed great in a bunch of ways, but he's got some things to fix and clean up. This would make him... ahead of schedule but still a rookie.





Yes yes yes!!!!
RE: .  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14544155 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
No one thinks Jones is going to be a "perfect rookie QB" - the point is that you have to look at how the fumbles happened, how he handled this aspect of his game in college, and actually put a little critical thinking into it rather than just look at the stat sheet and say "3 games, 3 fumbles... that's 1 per game, and we can't have that!"

It doesn't work that way.

I don't think anyone realistically expects Jones to continue to complete over 80% of his passes in real games. No one does that.

If we extrapolate what he's done and pace full games out of it, his numbers would be absurd. Everything in each direction is going to settle somewhere in the middle. His fumble pace is not going to stay where it is - nor are his passing numbers.

Jones will make more mistakes and more bad throws when the games count and he's facing starters who aren't holding anything back. But, you can't take a 3 game sample and assume any sort of pace or average based on that.

There are fair reasons to believe Eli affords the Giants a better chance to win - but ball security just shouldn't be one of them. It doesn't make sense.


Before we go any further as of right now -- who do you think should be starting as of right now?
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2019 7:58 pm : link
I am completely fine with Eli starting Week 1 - which is why this is all funny. I'm not even against it.

I just don't think it is or should be at all about ball security. I am no more confident in Eli protecting the ball than Daniel, really.

The difference is that I think Eli is better equipped to win games that matter right now. When the defenses are really scheming to beat us, the fronts are running stunts and twists, the starters are playing 4 quarters, and everything is happening faster than ever, it's all stuff Eli has countless experience with. Especially on the road, where it's going to be loud and distracting.

I am completely fine going with Eli until he just isn't winning games and isn't getting it done. I just don't want the leash to be so long that there's no change made until we're already out of it and there's only 4-5 games left to play. If we're losing early in the year and the offense isn't clicking - Jones needs to play.
Arc is right!  
Dave on the UWS : 8/25/2019 9:07 pm : link
And a well phrased, impressive rebuttal. I’ll add to it. Of the 3 fumbles. 1 happened on the center exchange (keep in mind this is brand new), one happened when he didn’t secure the ball ( got yelled at by Shurmur) and one happened when he got creamed from behind ( a play MOST QBs will fumble on). I hardly think, considering the circumstances, that he has a fumbling problem.
ARC  
giantstock : 8/25/2019 11:14 pm : link
SO let me get this straight:

SY made the following comment:
“However, we are now looking at 3 fumbles in 3 games. He has to clean that up.”

Then he asks later:
What does Manning do that Jones cannot? And why does this team have to be losing, or out of the playoff picture, for Jones to take the job?

This is the post I responded to. I did speak of the fumbles BUT I also said things not necessarily to you but either to you and others:

------------------------
“You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that’s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie.”

“You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.”
“Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie.”
----------------

In terms of who we want to see start it’s Eli. When you picked off my 1st sentence of fumbles – did you read the next two paragraphs? BELOW ARE THE NEXT TWO PARAGRAPHS I WROTE AFTER THE FUMBLE. SO we agree Eli should start, right?????????? SO when I replied to SY believing we should go with Eli (and you seem to agree with me on that) you felt a need to rip into me about the fumbling issue?????? SY IS SAYING to a degree “Be concerned about the fumbles,” is he not? And you felt a need to tear into me even though we agree on going with Eli? I say this respectfully—“HOLY SHIT!”
More quotes: THIS ITME IN FAVOR OF ELI JUST AS YOU SUGGEST, ISN'T IT???????

--------------

"You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."

"But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones."

DJ will fumble but it will be hard for him to out  
xman : 8/25/2019 11:22 pm : link
fumble Eli. Also will be tough for him to throw more interceptions. Just hope he can take the team to a SB without having a Strahan to anchor the D
How..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/26/2019 8:03 am : link
can anyone follow that drivel in all CAPS?
RE: How..  
arcarsenal : 8/26/2019 8:57 am : link
In comment 14544546 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
can anyone follow that drivel in all CAPS?


I can't anymore - it's like arguing with an out of control teenager. The hysterics and excessive caps lock, punctuation, random line breaks, etc... it's just exhausting.

I argued a shit take about Jones having a fumbling problem based on 3 preseason games. I said nothing about whatever other points were made.

I couldn't even make it through the last response without wanting to rip my hair out, so that's it for me.
Damn Arc  
crick n NC : 8/26/2019 9:06 am : link
I was gathering plenty of enjoyment from the unpredictable text from one side, and the hair pulling frustrating from your end.
arc..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/26/2019 9:08 am : link
the common theme with that moron is he always falls back on the premise that people are "twisting his words", even when he's directly quoted. I honestly can't even follow the arguments because of misplaced CAPS, terrible syntax and a horrific lack of putting together words that are readable.

It's everyone else's fault.

Until I get a decoder for EliteMobster-speak, I can't agree with or rebuke that which I can't understand
RE: arc..  
crick n NC : 8/26/2019 9:12 am : link
In comment 14544596 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the common theme with that moron is he always falls back on the premise that people are "twisting his words", even when he's directly quoted. I honestly can't even follow the arguments because of misplaced CAPS, terrible syntax and a horrific lack of putting together words that are readable.

It's everyone else's fault.

Until I get a decoder for EliteMobster-speak, I can't agree with or rebuke that which I can't understand


BUT....YOU COULD MIMIK??..RIGHT?? ofc THAT ***would BE YOUR CHOICE...HMM, HMM?!****
Crick..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/26/2019 9:14 am : link
LOL!!

It's funny because I looked up and saw this line:

Quote:
More quotes: THIS ITME IN FAVOR OF ELI JUST AS YOU SUGGEST, ISN'T IT???????


Who ever made the quote: THIS ITME IN FAVOR OF ELI JUST AS YOU SUGGEST, ISN'T IT???????

Confusion over quotes, using more CAPS than a Coke bottling facility, and unreadable shit.

Good times.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/26/2019 9:18 am : link
BELOW ARE THE NEXT TWO PARAGRAPHS I WROTE AFTER THE FUMBLE!!!!!

!!!*********

________________

HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!
I think what most are missing  
Rudy5757 : 8/26/2019 9:51 am : link
with regards to Eli and DJ is that it seems like the owners went to great lengths to say that Eli is the starter and will remain the starter until coach decides that its time to make a switch.

What I read from that is Eli will be given every opportunity to succeed. I don't think Shurmur really has a choice here, he has to play nice and start Eli. I get the sense that Shurmur is ready to play DJ as soon as Eli slips up. This is his opportunity to show he can develop a QB. I think he gets frustrated with Eli, especially last season but again his hands are tied at the moment imo.

I don't buy into the notion that the fumbles are a problem, too small of a sample size and the nature of the fumbles should be fixable. i think the one under center was just a lack of working together. The one where he got crushed is forgivable, I was happy that he bounced up. the one where he got it smacked out is the only one to be concerned about. he may need to hold it differently but even that one I am not sure about.

I wonder if there is any chance the Giants can trade Eli to the Colts? I mean it seems like the perfect match / opportunity and Eli can play out his career there. Not even for a windfall of picks but a fair deal for both sides. The Colts are a win now team and I think with the OL Eli can be the guy for the short term. If not I think the colts season is lost. they are staring 7-9 or 8-8 in the face. Just an interesting scenario to think about.
.  
Bill2 : 8/26/2019 11:30 am : link
When I see CAPS, endless hounding debate over whole days, small errors the other poster might make elevated to first world problems and self certainty that the poster has been demeaned and misunderstood; I think back to other famous BBI posters with some of the same common symptom clusters.

I don't know why they go together but they seem to often enough to notice
giantstock is unhinged  
BestFeature : 8/26/2019 11:58 am : link
He's really taking this way too seriously and I say this as someone that has thrown some tantrums regarding football in my time.
RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/26/2019 2:14 pm : link
In comment 14544809 Bill2 said:
Quote:
When I see CAPS, endless hounding debate over whole days, small errors the other poster might make elevated to first world problems and self certainty that the poster has been demeaned and misunderstood; I think back to other famous BBI posters with some of the same common symptom clusters.

I don't know why they go together but they seem to often enough to notice


Indeed, Bill... indeed.
question about the fumbles stat  
ron mexico : 8/26/2019 3:57 pm : link
do they get counted only if the other team recovers or anytime a player loses the ball?

Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious

RE: question about the fumbles stat  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/26/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14545139 ron mexico said:
Quote:
do they get counted only if the other team recovers or anytime a player loses the ball?

Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious


Fumbles are recorded regardless of who recovers. A lot of times you can also find a "FL" stat too.

The reasoning behind that is a fumble recovery is a somewhat random event, so capturing all the times the ball is free is a better indicator of ball security
RE: RE: question about the fumbles stat  
ron mexico : 8/26/2019 4:01 pm : link
In comment 14545141 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14545139 ron mexico said:


Quote:


do they get counted only if the other team recovers or anytime a player loses the ball?

Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious




Fumbles are recorded regardless of who recovers. A lot of times you can also find a "FL" stat too.

The reasoning behind that is a fumble recovery is a somewhat random event, so capturing all the times the ball is free is a better indicator of ball security


thanks - makes sense
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