But how can you get on that 3rd fumble when he was hit from behind after Solder got beat bad. He also fumbled when he was hit as he threw which is not something you can just blame him for
You asked "what can Manning do for the Giants that Jones can't?" I think there are three things. He still looks to have a stronger arm. He has the brains and experience to recognize what's happening when defenses open the bag of tricks they haven't used in preseason. And he has shown the ability to win real NFL games which Jones has so far only promised.
I like Jones (duh) and I understand he promises mobility that has never been Manning's strength. I can also see reasons to start Manning til his performance behind an actual NFL calibre line shows he needs to make way for the next guy. I think too there are negative consequences to starting Jones too early t hat are more long-lasting and serious than those associated with giving Manning the spot.
Let the rookie watch awhile. I really don't understand the rush.
Starting him the first game with a two-time Superbowl MVP one the bench? So what happens to his carefully nurtured confidence (which Shurmur has been doing a great job with btw) after he inevitably shits the bed in a game or two and the media starts asking him, and DG, and Mara, and Eli questions about the wisdom of picking a rookie over Eli?
It is necessary and natural for Eli to get his shot to open the season under center. If Eli can't produce, then you have the answer and justification to any questions from anybody, Eli included, about the switch.
There is no harm in waiting. No rookie has ever won a Super Bowl. The last rookies to win multiple playoff games were Flacco and Sanchez. Jones will not lead us to the promised land this season. No way. No how.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logocal assesment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other trhead? You said on that thread I was blastign Jones or laways blasting Jones on tha thread. In fact I have been very upbeat wiht him in thatI said he is playing good. I aksed you to show me in that trhread in which you accused me of blastign Jomes -- I asked oyu to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te deosn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: SY - Regarding Manning vs Jones Â
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logical assessment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other thread? You said on that thread I was blasting Jones or always blasting Jones on that thread. In fact I have been very upbeat with him in that I said he is playing good. I asked you to show me in that thread in which you accused me of blasting Jones -- I asked you to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te doesn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
No. WHat I;'m saying is he is fumbling too much right now.
You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that;s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie. ELi a HOF's he gets a good OL - he won;t make the same early season mistakes. Right now Jones is showing you what rookies do.
You ever hear of a guy named Jimmy Johnson? He never liked Randall Cunningham. He had a saying that you can apply to any facet of football. He said "I dont judge a player by the plays he makes. Rather I judge him by the plays he doesn't make."
Further, what you call "experience" I call in part "making less mistakes."
You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.
fan friends ask why Jones isn't starting over Eli. Sometimes we are too close and too loyal to our own players, especially our HoF players.
I personally think Eli still gives them a better chance to win, right now. I also think by mid-season Jones will be ready.
that there will still be problems this season. Kudos to DJ in shaking those hits off and continuing to fire the ball downfield.
Maybe its the competition, but I kind of like what Anderson and Tauaefa are showing at backup LB. All the others look like what we have had on the field for years...nothing. Move them up in Game 4 and see if they can impress.
A young developing roster like these Giants also need special teams to make plays this season...that was a nice return/blocking.
Regarding your point - I don’t think I can remember a year where so many rookies are in line to start OR be major pieces to the rotation puzzle on defense - I have to think it’s more on the lack of talent on D. If we don’t get a few surprises to the upside, the D will hold this team back this year.
With regard to rookie starting/playing.....it is a combo Â
At this point I am thinking that Perkins is looking like the second best back on the roster.
I also don’t see the logic in waiting to lose before playing Daniel Jones. It is a great question as to just what does Eli add, a legitimate question, which is why so many others have picked up on it.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Your remarks about our O-line performance reminds me of a recurring thought I keep having:
The Giants need to devote premium Draft picks to their offensive line, and not just in 2020!
Nate Solder is 31 and has trouble with speed.
Remmers is 30 and who knows how long his body will hold up?
Kevin Zeitler is the real deal, but even he is no longer a spring chicken at 29.
Jon Halapio has looked OK so far, but he still has to prove it / show it when the bullets start flying for real.
And our youngest guy Will Hernandez shows lots and lots of promise, but he is by no means a finished product, and as you point can get beat to the inside.
Giants must continue the search for young talent across the front line.
thanks for that about XMan,rather than he is playing cause someone else is not worthy. In football you have your legs and hands to get you where you want to go. He is great with his hands.
Dickerson--thought his blocking deserved a mention Â
appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
How can anyone ignore 3 fumbles in not even a complete game- a rookie at that - for a guy that has yet to start even one game over a guy who is going to the HOF?
It is just mind-blowing how some think you put on a NYG jersey as a Giant and all of sudden you ignore any of the bad you see - and just KNOW it will be alright as a rookie. Mind-blowing.
In the limited time he has played- a communication error between he and the center- yet it's not his fault. The ball slips from his hand it is not his fault. He fumbles while getting hit by a lineman it's not his fault. Jones would be averaging about 4 fumbles a game. Right now Jones fumbling is "off-the-charts" but let's ignore all of that. SUre buddy. Let's just turn a blind eye on all the fumbles and high rate of fumbles with Jones. Yeah okay.
How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Usually only fumbles lost count.
If a player is putting the ball on the ground -- you mean that wouldn't be a stat to worry about? You would only worry about the end result?
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts.
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
RE: RE: Dickerson--thought his blocking deserved a mention Â
appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
Ya think? At 27, Simonson is what he is, which is not very good, and he most likely won't get any better. In the Spring I described the 24-year old Dickerson as a slower, less athletic version of Evan Engram, which might be correct on its face, but also might be a massive undersell. He's done very well for himself this summer.
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever...
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts.
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever...
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager and people will be more considerate of whatever you're trying to argue.
Did you not say "Eli does not fumble in the manner that Jones does" ?
How can you know that? Eli has been a turnover machine for almost his entire career. Jones has played 3 preseason games.
You are drawing conclusions based on inadequate info.
If you want to post another wacky diatribe about it with random caps lock and asterisks all over the place, feel free.
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
He DID NOT have that problem in college and he won't have it here. Because he's been so great so far folks need to find SOMETHING to complain about. Enough.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.
Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.
Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...
1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games
You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
I wouldn't doubt if Jones was told not to run, meanwhile Lauletta is running all over the place. And no screens or fancy stuff, so rushers get to pin their years back. Also no Barkley.
This is the wrong question. Its the wrong goal. Its slightly cart before horse
The question is not Eli vs Jones. The goal is not a transition, the goal is a successful transition
Its when will the OL play enough so that we can see it is good enough against first tier NFl line and blitzing concepts?
When do the right mix of WR's show consistent route running and separation?
When those are as "roughly right" as they are going to be this year, then the foundation for a successful transition is present and the clock can begin ticking.
that if he never took snaps under center and those are muscle memory tasks that we all assume he will master why not give him more time to accumulate unthinking consistency?
if where to look and how to mask where the ball is going has to be faster and more subtle at NFl speed...keep doing it
if he is on a tremendous learning curve...get to whatever plateau he is getting to
Another month while the OL and Wr jell is not going to hurt
Nor ...nor...nor is the value of the opposing DC's seeing that you have to respect and plan for SB and EE and that the inner OL does very well against the run and the pass.
No Giants Qb has had a DC who had to account for a running game or a TE mismatch or a Giants OL that was competent.
Let him transition when the Defenses are guessing more about the 2019 Giants playbook, a half second and a step back. And while the Ol provides a half second more (and they will need to do that for we don't have a quick separating WR crew beyond SS and Tate).
imo every edge counts in a transition...lets get those first
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
You are twisting his comments.
Am I? BTW thanks for replying in a civil manner.
Where am I wrong? Please don't take my question wrong-- I am not being hostile with you. I have so many posters telling me I'm miserable. I'm not - and I am not angry in asking this. -- What am I twisting? I don't see what I'm twisting. He's ripping me for the fumbles yet I have also added that I believe rookies tend to make more mistakes. I made that comment before his initial rip into me.
This is what I said when I replied to eric at 12:29am:
"BUT IN THE INTERIM-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past."
JAY ON THE ISLAND-- - so arc is focusing on the fumbles. But I used more than fumbles, didn't I? I mean look at my 12:29 am post. I I am using more than fumbles and speaking of a rookie-- then isn't he ignoring what I said he was ignoring (History of the NFL with rookie QB's) if he is so focused on fumbles and not inclduing rookie mistakes?
**At 1:41 am I rpelied to deejboy the follwoing: - Beofr earc psoted ot me:
"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
Where am I in the wrong here? I've read arc before -- I've always thought he was respectful. Now I think he went off the depend. From what I've just replied to you here-- I'm speaking of fumbles AND also overall rookie performance. He keeps coming back at me "literally" with fumbles. He is responding to me. SO he thinks my view is wrong, right? My view was a reply to SY when he spoke of "Why not Jones?" SY spoke of the 3 games. The three games were enough of a concern that SY made a special note to remark upon the fumbling issue. We're not going to gloss over it, are we? We're not ignroing his fine performances, are we? We can remark that he is accurate. But yet we can't remark -- even as sy suggests- there is a concern with fumbles right now.// along with concern all the time for rookies? ANd now I'll be bitched at by other posters again "for being a hater."
and w/o parsing the verbiage of who argued what, I'm firmly in arc's camp simply because it it clear to my eyes--and from everything we've heard about his prowess on the basketball court as well as on the football field--that DJ is a vastly better athlete, quicker, more coordinated throughout his body than Eli, from whom we've seen mind boggling feats of stumble-itis, ball slipping from hands w/o a touch, etc.
Doesn't mean DJ won't be a fumbler, but the three he has had:
i) snap from C, arguably he pulled out early, lost the handle (even though someone said the C began his move too soon
ii) ball batted from his hands on the rush: yes, another lesson in learning to take care of the ball when bullets are flying, but the ball was swatted from his hand; that Slade blew his blocking assignment is a factor, but it wasn't as if Jones lost his grip
iii) DJ was shitwhaled from both sides. What QB doesn't lose that ball?
I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.
Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.
Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...
1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games
You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
Really? You didn't misrepresent my post? My 1st post on this thread was below. I responded to SY. What did SY say? He said teh follwoing: "However, we are now looking at 3 fumbles in 3 games. He has to clean that up."
SY identified a concern, did he not? I agreed with his concern. If it means totally nothing then don't think ti should even be mentioned? You took the 1st sentence of my post and didn't read little else, didn;t you?
***Read the post I replied to Jay on the Island. Then read the ENTIRE post of mine and don't get so wrapped up into "number of fumbles" vs SY's comment "WHy not Jones?
**I am talking more than fumbles. Yes my 1st sentence was just fumbles but I elaborated before you replied to me to include rookie mistakes. You keep fighting me on literal # of fumbles while I bring up also being a rookie. Rookies are gonan make a ton of mistakes INCLUDING fumbles. That;'s hwy "No Jones" was my response to SY when he asked "Why not Jones?"
Fro Giantstock:
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
"So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts."
We're getting into a circular fight but where did I ever suggest "bench him forever?"
I'm interested to hear what Jay on the Island has to say. At some point our argument has to slow down. But I aks this honestly-- what you said above in quotes--
How is that NOT mis-representing my posts? I don't mean to be mean but where did I say this?????
All preseason it was clear Jones was comfortable throwing long. And whether it’s his OL or not, Eli has become more tentative in that area. Link - ( New Window )
RE: Thought this was a fascinating stat Eli v Jones in the preseason Â
All preseason it was clear Jones was comfortable throwing long. And whether it’s his OL or not, Eli has become more tentative in that area. Link - ( New Window )
But something something intended yards something something game manager.
RE: Bill2 makes a good point, but to the fumbling issue Â
and w/o parsing the verbiage of who argued what, I'm firmly in arc's camp simply because it it clear to my eyes--and from everything we've heard about his prowess on the basketball court as well as on the football field--that DJ is a vastly better athlete, quicker, more coordinated throughout his body than Eli, from whom we've seen mind boggling feats of stumble-itis, ball slipping from hands w/o a touch, etc.
Doesn't mean DJ won't be a fumbler, but the three he has had:
i) snap from C, arguably he pulled out early, lost the handle (even though someone said the C began his move too soon
ii) ball batted from his hands on the rush: yes, another lesson in learning to take care of the ball when bullets are flying, but the ball was swatted from his hand; that Slade blew his blocking assignment is a factor, but it wasn't as if Jones lost his grip
iii) DJ was shitwhaled from both sides. What QB doesn't lose that ball?
coll-- let me ask you things please don;t take this like I'm mad or anything.You see SY's comments of he signaled out fumbles have to stop. You agree with that, right?
Then read SY's question -- comment "Why not Jones?" He is asking "why not Jones to start over Eli," is he not?
Then if you add the fumbles to Jones overall being a rookie (please read below and add being a rookie to the fumbles) - is what I'm saying below (which I said before ARC even responded to me) without merit? I made the below post at 1:41 am on this thread:
"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
Thank you Sy always appreciate what you bring to BBI Â
I think we can say it is fair to point out the fumbles
and I am sure Jones learns from everyone .
The center snap exchange is one that Jones can and will solve
also the clock in his head is something that he will only
learn by playing but he has to protect the ball at all times.
I can't blame him for the hit thats on Soldier he had no
time to react to that . So he has lost only one fumble .
That matters as well .
I still think starting Eli is the correct approach and Jones
will likely get his chance sooner than later .
Sure 3 fumbles isn't going to cut it but if you want to evaluate Daniel Jones' ball security then I think looking back to his college performance is the best indicator.
Jones had 19 fumbles and lost 13 of them in 36 career games in college.
For comparison sake Sam Darnold had 21 fumbles with 14 lost in 27 games.
We also need to take into account the fact that Jones is working under center which he rarely if ever did in college. The first fumble against the Bears was just the second time that Jones had worked with Halapio. He didn't practice with the first team offensive line until the Jets preseason game. The next time he worked with them was the Bears game.
The second fumble was on Jones but the other two aren't really his fault. Most QB's would have fumbled just as he did if he is getting crushed from the blind side.
with respect, I'm not going to characterize or arbitrate, as I mentioned. I will say that wrt innumerable posts I've written, commenters have heatedly disagreed with or mocked the post when, to me, it was apparent that they had not read, had mis-read, or deliberately twisted a reading. It's a BBI specialty, and I am NOT suggesting that either arc or you did this vis à vis each other. Not going there.
Let it go. I stand simply with the notion that Jones is a way better athlete, and I suspect if he is 'prone' to fumbles it will be because of the factors Bill2 is adducing and not because he inexplicably loses the handle, those 'Oh, Eli' moments.
"So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts."
We're getting into a circular fight but where did I ever suggest "bench him forever?"
I'm interested to hear what Jay on the Island has to say. At some point our argument has to slow down. But I aks this honestly-- what you said above in quotes--
How is that NOT mis-representing my posts? I don't mean to be mean but where did I say this?????
I didn't think I needed to explain that part of my post was supposed to be an exaggeration -
You keep saying Jones is fumbling too much. Isn't that the basis of your argument?
If you're scared to play him over Eli for that reason, it's not a good reason. We have a 15 year sample size of Eli turning the ball over more than a lot of other QB's. Ball security is not the reason you go with Manning over Jones now.
So, the obvious hyperbole in my post is meant to raise the general point that if you don't trust Jones to protect the football, how is he ever going to get better by standing on the sidelines? This wasn't an issue @ Duke, and a couple of then weren't even totally on him. You're projecting outward and drawing conclusions based on a tiny sample size - and then ignoring that we have a massive sample size where Eli has had issues turning the ball over.
I'm not even against starting Manning - which is the funny part.
I just won't pretend it has anything to do with ball security because it shouldn't, and it doesn't.
Sure 3 fumbles isn't going to cut it but if you want to evaluate Daniel Jones' ball security then I think looking back to his college performance is the best indicator.
Jones had 19 fumbles and lost 13 of them in 36 career games in college.
For comparison sake Sam Darnold had 21 fumbles with 14 lost in 27 games.
We also need to take into account the fact that Jones is working under center which he rarely if ever did in college. The first fumble against the Bears was just the second time that Jones had worked with Halapio. He didn't practice with the first team offensive line until the Jets preseason game. The next time he worked with them was the Bears game.
The second fumble was on Jones but the other two aren't really his fault. Most QB's would have fumbled just as he did if he is getting crushed from the blind side.
Okay. It's over. If ARC wants to rip into me again or others on here - I'll let it go. I've said my peace.
I'll just conclude with as I've said before. As rookies- these type of mistakes don't go away. Year 1 it is inherent for a rookie to make these mistakes frequently. These fumbles highlight what a rookie is and the growing pains that you have to go through. It will be more than juts fumbles. It will be the whole package. That why we should say in week 1 "That's why you don't start Jones."
In week 1 as a team you still have aspirations for a successful season (as fans we can easily doubt it but imo the team/mgmt/ownership can never or with rare exceptions). You go with Eli imo because with a "potentially good OL" imo you would expect Eli would be less prone to errors due to his experience.
*Thus to highlight Jimmy Johnson's quote again from years ago while speaking of Randall Cunningham making a spectacular play he said to paraphrase- "I don't judge a QB by the plays he makes, but by the plays he doesn't make." IMo same goes with Jones potential vs Eli's experience. Give me the experience to start the year for THIS team.
I'm not going to rip into you or be a dick; I just simply disagree with the focus on fumbling as a reason to play Manning over Jones when we already know for a fact that Eli is as susceptible to losing the football or throwing a pick as any starter in the league. I just don't believe in that angle here.
Eli may well give us a better chance to win out of the gates. And that's why he's the starter for now. Because the org believes he's more ready to handle the games that count at this point in time.
If that turns out to not be the case, and we're not producing offensively and aren't winning - Eli should sit.
Of course Jones is going to make mistakes. But, taking 3 fumbles in 3 games and then proclaiming some nonsense about a 1 fumble per game average is just disingenuous nonsense. It doesn't mean that average is going to accelerate or even maintain. Based on Jones' performance in college, I really don't think this is going to be a major issue.
A lot of QB's are going to struggle to hold onto the ball when they get clocked from behind and then sandwiched on top of it.
The transfer was shoddy on the first one, too.
The only one that's really been all on Daniel so far is the one where he got stripped. Shit happens. He'll learn from it. But not by watching.
The only way to improve in many cases is to play.
Of course Jones will make mistakes, he's a rookie Â
There will be interceptions, fumbles, miscommunications, etc. There will be growing pains but that's the norm. However, suggesting that Jones will be a fumble machine based on those three preseason fumbles is a bit absurd.
Have been playing most of the time without our top 3-4 weapons in Tate, Shepard and Barkely as well as Engram. So we were essentially 2nd- 3rd string with our skill players from the opening whistle.
With Tate Shep Barkley and Engram and with the improved OL I think this O is going to play on levek or better than what we saw 2nd half last year when we averaged like 27 ppg (much without OBJ).
Shurmur's passing game puts pressure on all levels and we've seen 2nd and 3rd string receivers get consistently open both late in the year last year as well as preseason. I'm not really concerned about the O.
The D's youth at many critical starting spots (though there are signs of great talent potential) is the key factor especially early on.
They are likely going to be fooled by a lot of the little wrinkles teams will be throwing at us. Like we have seen in preseason already.
RE: Of course Jones will make mistakes, he's a rookie Â
There will be interceptions, fumbles, miscommunications, etc. There will be growing pains but that's the norm. However, suggesting that Jones will be a fumble machine based on those three preseason fumbles is a bit absurd.
Fumbling is part of the mistakes that a rookie will do. Again the issue was SY asking "Why not Jones?" WHile Sy mentioned Jones has "fumbling to clean up," it is obvious that in the limited time Jones has played he;s had 3 fumbles. You can't ignore that in one breath then in the other praise how well his passing is and the rest of his game. That wreaks of gross homerism.
Here is the overall absurdity if you take this step by step:
1-- Daniel Jones Shouldn't start because of his lack of experience. However
2-- After the few games one can conclude the fumbles don;t matter.
3-- After a few games one can conclude that he has been so accurate he will throw so few interceptions.
4-- AFter a few games one can conclude he will be so accurate that he'll have a high completion rate.
5-- After a few games we can conclude he has as strong of an arm if not stronger than Eli.
6-- SO if we want to conclude 3,4 and 5 have merit -- because we've seen it with our won eyes, we are going to arbitrarily discount number2??????
****However if you don't agree with 3,4 and 5-- then it sort of proves my point that you go with the Eli which was my reply to SY, doesn't it? Yet we are still stuck on fumbles? SY brought up fumbles - then asked why Jones. If SY didn't think fumbles were such a big deal he wouldn't have had a special note. You say it was an exaggeration yet he specifically spiked it out on one of his 3 points. That doesn't smell like exaggeration to me otherwise he would not have specifically mentioned it..
Unless anyone thinks we have the perfect rookie QB-- between fumbles, interceptions, and completion % he is going to have some major flaw which factors into why you go with Eli. But fumbles IS A PART of experience. If he is NOT a fumbling machine -- great -- but in his rookie year he is then going to have other flaws.
****You have to go back to the context of the post-- "Why not Jones?" If he is not a fumbling machine in one game then another game interceptions then one game bad reads etc then he is a a QB without flaws which would be ridiculous for a rookie QB.
No one thinks Jones is going to be a "perfect rookie QB" - the point is that you have to look at how the fumbles happened, how he handled this aspect of his game in college, and actually put a little critical thinking into it rather than just look at the stat sheet and say "3 games, 3 fumbles... that's 1 per game, and we can't have that!"
It doesn't work that way.
I don't think anyone realistically expects Jones to continue to complete over 80% of his passes in real games. No one does that.
If we extrapolate what he's done and pace full games out of it, his numbers would be absurd. Everything in each direction is going to settle somewhere in the middle. His fumble pace is not going to stay where it is - nor are his passing numbers.
Jones will make more mistakes and more bad throws when the games count and he's facing starters who aren't holding anything back. But, you can't take a 3 game sample and assume any sort of pace or average based on that.
There are fair reasons to believe Eli affords the Giants a better chance to win - but ball security just shouldn't be one of them. It doesn't make sense.
All preseason it was clear Jones was comfortable throwing long. And whether it’s his OL or not, Eli has become more tentative in that area. Link - ( New Window )
Throwing long isn't necessarily dependent on throwing time. A short dig route often takes more time to develop than a go or seam route.
There's a certain inconsistency in gauging Jones: Â
He's fumbled more than anyone would like. We can dismiss that because it's pre-season, I guess.
His stats so far have been undeniably stellar. But if we dismiss the fumbles because it's pre-season, shouldn't we dismiss the stellar stats for the same reason?
He's performed great in a bunch of ways, but he's got some things to fix and clean up. This would make him... ahead of schedule but still a rookie.
Sy wrote:
Quote:
Two thoughts I want to leave you with: What does Manning do that Jones cannot? And why does this team have to be losing, or out of the playoff picture, for Jones to take the job? Eli Manning took the job from Kurt Warner in 2004 when Big Blue was 5-4.
IIRC the Giants had lost two straight and Warner's play was a problem, so that was why they put in Eli. If the Giants are 5-4 and Eli's play is a problem, it's extremely likely that Jones will take Eli's job.
But IMO the more likely situation is: The Giants are 5-4 and Eli's play isn't the problem. If they're losing games 35-31 or winning 42-35, and the problem is the defense, then what? Bench Eli when he's playing well? That's going to be a difficult choice. Then what if Jones comes in and plays like a rookie, even a good rookie. Not as well as Eli. Then you really have a QB controversy.
Can you imagine Shurmur, Gettleman and/or Mara standing in front of a press conference and saying: "Eli is arguably our best quarterback today but Daniel is our future. We have to get him ready for next season, when we think we can really begin our run. So we're going to bite the bullet and maybe let go of a couple of wins for this season. We think this is our fastest route back to the Super Bowl and another Lombardi trophy. And if Daniel learns and improves as fast as he has so far, we don't think we're writing this season off at all." I think that is possible, but they'd have to be willing to stand in the fire for benching the guy who they admit gives them the best chance to win.
Man this Board is getting hard to take with all these moronic comments. Eli has played exactly what 3 or 4 series the entire preseason and people are getting on his case already even though he has looked pretty good. lets see if he starts throwing down field when the season starts. Jones has played well but he has played against second and third stringers and plain vanilla defenses. You can't possibly rate him on the preseason. I like what I see but its not what he would see once the season starts. And please any QB playing in front of a crappy line like Eli has the last 3/4 years would be in the same boat. The amazing think is he wasn't killed.
RE: There's a certain inconsistency in gauging Jones: Â
He's fumbled more than anyone would like. We can dismiss that because it's pre-season, I guess.
His stats so far have been undeniably stellar. But if we dismiss the fumbles because it's pre-season, shouldn't we dismiss the stellar stats for the same reason?
He's performed great in a bunch of ways, but he's got some things to fix and clean up. This would make him... ahead of schedule but still a rookie.
No one thinks Jones is going to be a "perfect rookie QB" - the point is that you have to look at how the fumbles happened, how he handled this aspect of his game in college, and actually put a little critical thinking into it rather than just look at the stat sheet and say "3 games, 3 fumbles... that's 1 per game, and we can't have that!"
It doesn't work that way.
I don't think anyone realistically expects Jones to continue to complete over 80% of his passes in real games. No one does that.
If we extrapolate what he's done and pace full games out of it, his numbers would be absurd. Everything in each direction is going to settle somewhere in the middle. His fumble pace is not going to stay where it is - nor are his passing numbers.
Jones will make more mistakes and more bad throws when the games count and he's facing starters who aren't holding anything back. But, you can't take a 3 game sample and assume any sort of pace or average based on that.
There are fair reasons to believe Eli affords the Giants a better chance to win - but ball security just shouldn't be one of them. It doesn't make sense.
Before we go any further as of right now -- who do you think should be starting as of right now?
I am completely fine with Eli starting Week 1 - which is why this is all funny. I'm not even against it.
I just don't think it is or should be at all about ball security. I am no more confident in Eli protecting the ball than Daniel, really.
The difference is that I think Eli is better equipped to win games that matter right now. When the defenses are really scheming to beat us, the fronts are running stunts and twists, the starters are playing 4 quarters, and everything is happening faster than ever, it's all stuff Eli has countless experience with. Especially on the road, where it's going to be loud and distracting.
I am completely fine going with Eli until he just isn't winning games and isn't getting it done. I just don't want the leash to be so long that there's no change made until we're already out of it and there's only 4-5 games left to play. If we're losing early in the year and the offense isn't clicking - Jones needs to play.
And a well phrased, impressive rebuttal. I’ll add to it. Of the 3 fumbles. 1 happened on the center exchange (keep in mind this is brand new), one happened when he didn’t secure the ball ( got yelled at by Shurmur) and one happened when he got creamed from behind ( a play MOST QBs will fumble on). I hardly think, considering the circumstances, that he has a fumbling problem.
SY made the following comment:
“However, we are now looking at 3 fumbles in 3 games. He has to clean that up.”
Then he asks later:
What does Manning do that Jones cannot? And why does this team have to be losing, or out of the playoff picture, for Jones to take the job?
This is the post I responded to. I did speak of the fumbles BUT I also said things not necessarily to you but either to you and others:
------------------------
“You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that’s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie.”
“You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.”
“Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie.”
----------------
In terms of who we want to see start it’s Eli. When you picked off my 1st sentence of fumbles – did you read the next two paragraphs? BELOW ARE THE NEXT TWO PARAGRAPHS I WROTE AFTER THE FUMBLE. SO we agree Eli should start, right?????????? SO when I replied to SY believing we should go with Eli (and you seem to agree with me on that) you felt a need to rip into me about the fumbling issue?????? SY IS SAYING to a degree “Be concerned about the fumbles,” is he not? And you felt a need to tear into me even though we agree on going with Eli? I say this respectfully—“HOLY SHIT!”
More quotes: THIS ITME IN FAVOR OF ELI JUST AS YOU SUGGEST, ISN'T IT???????
--------------
"You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
"But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones."
DJ will fumble but it will be hard for him to out Â
I can't anymore - it's like arguing with an out of control teenager. The hysterics and excessive caps lock, punctuation, random line breaks, etc... it's just exhausting.
I argued a shit take about Jones having a fumbling problem based on 3 preseason games. I said nothing about whatever other points were made.
I couldn't even make it through the last response without wanting to rip my hair out, so that's it for me.
the common theme with that moron is he always falls back on the premise that people are "twisting his words", even when he's directly quoted. I honestly can't even follow the arguments because of misplaced CAPS, terrible syntax and a horrific lack of putting together words that are readable.
It's everyone else's fault.
Until I get a decoder for EliteMobster-speak, I can't agree with or rebuke that which I can't understand
the common theme with that moron is he always falls back on the premise that people are "twisting his words", even when he's directly quoted. I honestly can't even follow the arguments because of misplaced CAPS, terrible syntax and a horrific lack of putting together words that are readable.
It's everyone else's fault.
Until I get a decoder for EliteMobster-speak, I can't agree with or rebuke that which I can't understand
BUT....YOU COULD MIMIK??..RIGHT?? ofc THAT ***would BE YOUR CHOICE...HMM, HMM?!****
with regards to Eli and DJ is that it seems like the owners went to great lengths to say that Eli is the starter and will remain the starter until coach decides that its time to make a switch.
What I read from that is Eli will be given every opportunity to succeed. I don't think Shurmur really has a choice here, he has to play nice and start Eli. I get the sense that Shurmur is ready to play DJ as soon as Eli slips up. This is his opportunity to show he can develop a QB. I think he gets frustrated with Eli, especially last season but again his hands are tied at the moment imo.
I don't buy into the notion that the fumbles are a problem, too small of a sample size and the nature of the fumbles should be fixable. i think the one under center was just a lack of working together. The one where he got crushed is forgivable, I was happy that he bounced up. the one where he got it smacked out is the only one to be concerned about. he may need to hold it differently but even that one I am not sure about.
I wonder if there is any chance the Giants can trade Eli to the Colts? I mean it seems like the perfect match / opportunity and Eli can play out his career there. Not even for a windfall of picks but a fair deal for both sides. The Colts are a win now team and I think with the OL Eli can be the guy for the short term. If not I think the colts season is lost. they are staring 7-9 or 8-8 in the face. Just an interesting scenario to think about.
When I see CAPS, endless hounding debate over whole days, small errors the other poster might make elevated to first world problems and self certainty that the poster has been demeaned and misunderstood; I think back to other famous BBI posters with some of the same common symptom clusters.
I don't know why they go together but they seem to often enough to notice
When I see CAPS, endless hounding debate over whole days, small errors the other poster might make elevated to first world problems and self certainty that the poster has been demeaned and misunderstood; I think back to other famous BBI posters with some of the same common symptom clusters.
I don't know why they go together but they seem to often enough to notice
do they get counted only if the other team recovers or anytime a player loses the ball?
Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious
Fumbles are recorded regardless of who recovers. A lot of times you can also find a "FL" stat too.
The reasoning behind that is a fumble recovery is a somewhat random event, so capturing all the times the ball is free is a better indicator of ball security
do they get counted only if the other team recovers or anytime a player loses the ball?
Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious
Fumbles are recorded regardless of who recovers. A lot of times you can also find a "FL" stat too.
The reasoning behind that is a fumble recovery is a somewhat random event, so capturing all the times the ball is free is a better indicator of ball security
Thanks for the effort, looking forward to reading this!
I like Jones (duh) and I understand he promises mobility that has never been Manning's strength. I can also see reasons to start Manning til his performance behind an actual NFL calibre line shows he needs to make way for the next guy. I think too there are negative consequences to starting Jones too early t hat are more long-lasting and serious than those associated with giving Manning the spot.
Jones replacing Eli at some point....is the circle of life.
Eli needing to replace Jones.....would be a disaster.
Starting him the first game with a two-time Superbowl MVP one the bench? So what happens to his carefully nurtured confidence (which Shurmur has been doing a great job with btw) after he inevitably shits the bed in a game or two and the media starts asking him, and DG, and Mara, and Eli questions about the wisdom of picking a rookie over Eli?
It is necessary and natural for Eli to get his shot to open the season under center. If Eli can't produce, then you have the answer and justification to any questions from anybody, Eli included, about the switch.
There is no harm in waiting. No rookie has ever won a Super Bowl. The last rookies to win multiple playoff games were Flacco and Sanchez. Jones will not lead us to the promised land this season. No way. No how.
But Eli actually might.
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/profile - ( New Window )
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
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In comment 14543254 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logocal assesment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other trhead? You said on that thread I was blastign Jones or laways blasting Jones on tha thread. In fact I have been very upbeat wiht him in thatI said he is playing good. I aksed you to show me in that trhread in which you accused me of blastign Jomes -- I asked oyu to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te deosn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
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In comment 14543304 giantstock said:
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In comment 14543254 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logical assessment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other thread? You said on that thread I was blasting Jones or always blasting Jones on that thread. In fact I have been very upbeat with him in that I said he is playing good. I asked you to show me in that thread in which you accused me of blasting Jones -- I asked you to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te doesn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
I meant Jones not Barkley.
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There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
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You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
No. WHat I;'m saying is he is fumbling too much right now.
You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that;s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie. ELi a HOF's he gets a good OL - he won;t make the same early season mistakes. Right now Jones is showing you what rookies do.
You ever hear of a guy named Jimmy Johnson? He never liked Randall Cunningham. He had a saying that you can apply to any facet of football. He said "I dont judge a player by the plays he makes. Rather I judge him by the plays he doesn't make."
Further, what you call "experience" I call in part "making less mistakes."
You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.
I personally think Eli still gives them a better chance to win, right now. I also think by mid-season Jones will be ready.
Thanks Sy.
Maybe its the competition, but I kind of like what Anderson and Tauaefa are showing at backup LB. All the others look like what we have had on the field for years...nothing. Move them up in Game 4 and see if they can impress.
A young developing roster like these Giants also need special teams to make plays this season...that was a nice return/blocking.
If Connerly, Xmen plays....it is due to lack of quality on roster.
At this point I am thinking that Perkins is looking like the second best back on the roster.
I also don’t see the logic in waiting to lose before playing Daniel Jones. It is a great question as to just what does Eli add, a legitimate question, which is why so many others have picked up on it.
Thanks again.
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Usually only fumbles lost count.
...for informative, insightful review.
Your remarks about our O-line performance reminds me of a recurring thought I keep having:
The Giants need to devote premium Draft picks to their offensive line, and not just in 2020!
Nate Solder is 31 and has trouble with speed.
Remmers is 30 and who knows how long his body will hold up?
Kevin Zeitler is the real deal, but even he is no longer a spring chicken at 29.
Jon Halapio has looked OK so far, but he still has to prove it / show it when the bullets start flying for real.
And our youngest guy Will Hernandez shows lots and lots of promise, but he is by no means a finished product, and as you point can get beat to the inside.
Giants must continue the search for young talent across the front line.
Excellent point
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
How can anyone ignore 3 fumbles in not even a complete game- a rookie at that - for a guy that has yet to start even one game over a guy who is going to the HOF?
It is just mind-blowing how some think you put on a NYG jersey as a Giant and all of sudden you ignore any of the bad you see - and just KNOW it will be alright as a rookie. Mind-blowing.
In the limited time he has played- a communication error between he and the center- yet it's not his fault. The ball slips from his hand it is not his fault. He fumbles while getting hit by a lineman it's not his fault. Jones would be averaging about 4 fumbles a game. Right now Jones fumbling is "off-the-charts" but let's ignore all of that. SUre buddy. Let's just turn a blind eye on all the fumbles and high rate of fumbles with Jones. Yeah okay.
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable.
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In comment 14543289 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Usually only fumbles lost count.
If a player is putting the ball on the ground -- you mean that wouldn't be a stat to worry about? You would only worry about the end result?
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
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appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
Ya think? At 27, Simonson is what he is, which is not very good, and he most likely won't get any better. In the Spring I described the 24-year old Dickerson as a slower, less athletic version of Evan Engram, which might be correct on its face, but also might be a massive undersell. He's done very well for himself this summer.
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
This is spot on.
Quote:
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever...
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager and people will be more considerate of whatever you're trying to argue.
Did you not say "Eli does not fumble in the manner that Jones does" ?
How can you know that? Eli has been a turnover machine for almost his entire career. Jones has played 3 preseason games.
You are drawing conclusions based on inadequate info.
If you want to post another wacky diatribe about it with random caps lock and asterisks all over the place, feel free.
Your argument still sucks.
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Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager
I love it.
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
You are twisting his comments.
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In comment 14543766 giantstock said:
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Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager
I love it.
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.
Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.
Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...
1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games
You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
The question is not Eli vs Jones. The goal is not a transition, the goal is a successful transition
Its when will the OL play enough so that we can see it is good enough against first tier NFl line and blitzing concepts?
When do the right mix of WR's show consistent route running and separation?
When those are as "roughly right" as they are going to be this year, then the foundation for a successful transition is present and the clock can begin ticking.
imo
if where to look and how to mask where the ball is going has to be faster and more subtle at NFl speed...keep doing it
if he is on a tremendous learning curve...get to whatever plateau he is getting to
Another month while the OL and Wr jell is not going to hurt
Nor ...nor...nor is the value of the opposing DC's seeing that you have to respect and plan for SB and EE and that the inner OL does very well against the run and the pass.
No Giants Qb has had a DC who had to account for a running game or a TE mismatch or a Giants OL that was competent.
Let him transition when the Defenses are guessing more about the 2019 Giants playbook, a half second and a step back. And while the Ol provides a half second more (and they will need to do that for we don't have a quick separating WR crew beyond SS and Tate).
imo every edge counts in a transition...lets get those first
Quote:
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
You are twisting his comments.
Am I? BTW thanks for replying in a civil manner.
Where am I wrong? Please don't take my question wrong-- I am not being hostile with you. I have so many posters telling me I'm miserable. I'm not - and I am not angry in asking this. -- What am I twisting? I don't see what I'm twisting. He's ripping me for the fumbles yet I have also added that I believe rookies tend to make more mistakes. I made that comment before his initial rip into me.
This is what I said when I replied to eric at 12:29am:
"BUT IN THE INTERIM-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past."
JAY ON THE ISLAND-- - so arc is focusing on the fumbles. But I used more than fumbles, didn't I? I mean look at my 12:29 am post. I I am using more than fumbles and speaking of a rookie-- then isn't he ignoring what I said he was ignoring (History of the NFL with rookie QB's) if he is so focused on fumbles and not inclduing rookie mistakes?
**At 1:41 am I rpelied to deejboy the follwoing: - Beofr earc psoted ot me:
"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
Where am I in the wrong here? I've read arc before -- I've always thought he was respectful. Now I think he went off the depend. From what I've just replied to you here-- I'm speaking of fumbles AND also overall rookie performance. He keeps coming back at me "literally" with fumbles. He is responding to me. SO he thinks my view is wrong, right? My view was a reply to SY when he spoke of "Why not Jones?" SY spoke of the 3 games. The three games were enough of a concern that SY made a special note to remark upon the fumbling issue. We're not going to gloss over it, are we? We're not ignroing his fine performances, are we? We can remark that he is accurate. But yet we can't remark -- even as sy suggests- there is a concern with fumbles right now.// along with concern all the time for rookies? ANd now I'll be bitched at by other posters again "for being a hater."
Put that on NFL tape in 2019 then talk transition
Doesn't mean DJ won't be a fumbler, but the three he has had:
i) snap from C, arguably he pulled out early, lost the handle (even though someone said the C began his move too soon
ii) ball batted from his hands on the rush: yes, another lesson in learning to take care of the ball when bullets are flying, but the ball was swatted from his hand; that Slade blew his blocking assignment is a factor, but it wasn't as if Jones lost his grip
iii) DJ was shitwhaled from both sides. What QB doesn't lose that ball?
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In comment 14543777 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14543766 giantstock said:
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I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.
Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.
Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...
1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games
You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
Really? You didn't misrepresent my post? My 1st post on this thread was below. I responded to SY. What did SY say? He said teh follwoing: "However, we are now looking at 3 fumbles in 3 games. He has to clean that up."
SY identified a concern, did he not? I agreed with his concern. If it means totally nothing then don't think ti should even be mentioned? You took the 1st sentence of my post and didn't read little else, didn;t you?
***Read the post I replied to Jay on the Island. Then read the ENTIRE post of mine and don't get so wrapped up into "number of fumbles" vs SY's comment "WHy not Jones?
**I am talking more than fumbles. Yes my 1st sentence was just fumbles but I elaborated before you replied to me to include rookie mistakes. You keep fighting me on literal # of fumbles while I bring up also being a rookie. Rookies are gonan make a ton of mistakes INCLUDING fumbles. That;'s hwy "No Jones" was my response to SY when he asked "Why not Jones?"
Fro Giantstock:
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
"So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts."
We're getting into a circular fight but where did I ever suggest "bench him forever?"
I'm interested to hear what Jay on the Island has to say. At some point our argument has to slow down. But I aks this honestly-- what you said above in quotes--
How is that NOT mis-representing my posts? I don't mean to be mean but where did I say this?????
I'm striking out on the decoder ring....
Link - ( New Window )
But something something intended yards something something game manager.
Doesn't mean DJ won't be a fumbler, but the three he has had:
i) snap from C, arguably he pulled out early, lost the handle (even though someone said the C began his move too soon
ii) ball batted from his hands on the rush: yes, another lesson in learning to take care of the ball when bullets are flying, but the ball was swatted from his hand; that Slade blew his blocking assignment is a factor, but it wasn't as if Jones lost his grip
iii) DJ was shitwhaled from both sides. What QB doesn't lose that ball?
coll-- let me ask you things please don;t take this like I'm mad or anything.You see SY's comments of he signaled out fumbles have to stop. You agree with that, right?
Then read SY's question -- comment "Why not Jones?" He is asking "why not Jones to start over Eli," is he not?
Then if you add the fumbles to Jones overall being a rookie (please read below and add being a rookie to the fumbles) - is what I'm saying below (which I said before ARC even responded to me) without merit? I made the below post at 1:41 am on this thread:
"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
and I am sure Jones learns from everyone .
The center snap exchange is one that Jones can and will solve
also the clock in his head is something that he will only
learn by playing but he has to protect the ball at all times.
I can't blame him for the hit thats on Soldier he had no
time to react to that . So he has lost only one fumble .
That matters as well .
I still think starting Eli is the correct approach and Jones
will likely get his chance sooner than later .
Jones had 19 fumbles and lost 13 of them in 36 career games in college.
For comparison sake Sam Darnold had 21 fumbles with 14 lost in 27 games.
We also need to take into account the fact that Jones is working under center which he rarely if ever did in college. The first fumble against the Bears was just the second time that Jones had worked with Halapio. He didn't practice with the first team offensive line until the Jets preseason game. The next time he worked with them was the Bears game.
The second fumble was on Jones but the other two aren't really his fault. Most QB's would have fumbled just as he did if he is getting crushed from the blind side.
Let it go. I stand simply with the notion that Jones is a way better athlete, and I suspect if he is 'prone' to fumbles it will be because of the factors Bill2 is adducing and not because he inexplicably loses the handle, those 'Oh, Eli' moments.
"So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts."
We're getting into a circular fight but where did I ever suggest "bench him forever?"
I'm interested to hear what Jay on the Island has to say. At some point our argument has to slow down. But I aks this honestly-- what you said above in quotes--
How is that NOT mis-representing my posts? I don't mean to be mean but where did I say this?????
I didn't think I needed to explain that part of my post was supposed to be an exaggeration -
You keep saying Jones is fumbling too much. Isn't that the basis of your argument?
If you're scared to play him over Eli for that reason, it's not a good reason. We have a 15 year sample size of Eli turning the ball over more than a lot of other QB's. Ball security is not the reason you go with Manning over Jones now.
So, the obvious hyperbole in my post is meant to raise the general point that if you don't trust Jones to protect the football, how is he ever going to get better by standing on the sidelines? This wasn't an issue @ Duke, and a couple of then weren't even totally on him. You're projecting outward and drawing conclusions based on a tiny sample size - and then ignoring that we have a massive sample size where Eli has had issues turning the ball over.
I'm not even against starting Manning - which is the funny part.
I just won't pretend it has anything to do with ball security because it shouldn't, and it doesn't.
Jones had 19 fumbles and lost 13 of them in 36 career games in college.
For comparison sake Sam Darnold had 21 fumbles with 14 lost in 27 games.
We also need to take into account the fact that Jones is working under center which he rarely if ever did in college. The first fumble against the Bears was just the second time that Jones had worked with Halapio. He didn't practice with the first team offensive line until the Jets preseason game. The next time he worked with them was the Bears game.
The second fumble was on Jones but the other two aren't really his fault. Most QB's would have fumbled just as he did if he is getting crushed from the blind side.
Okay. It's over. If ARC wants to rip into me again or others on here - I'll let it go. I've said my peace.
I'll just conclude with as I've said before. As rookies- these type of mistakes don't go away. Year 1 it is inherent for a rookie to make these mistakes frequently. These fumbles highlight what a rookie is and the growing pains that you have to go through. It will be more than juts fumbles. It will be the whole package. That why we should say in week 1 "That's why you don't start Jones."
In week 1 as a team you still have aspirations for a successful season (as fans we can easily doubt it but imo the team/mgmt/ownership can never or with rare exceptions). You go with Eli imo because with a "potentially good OL" imo you would expect Eli would be less prone to errors due to his experience.
*Thus to highlight Jimmy Johnson's quote again from years ago while speaking of Randall Cunningham making a spectacular play he said to paraphrase- "I don't judge a QB by the plays he makes, but by the plays he doesn't make." IMo same goes with Jones potential vs Eli's experience. Give me the experience to start the year for THIS team.
Eli may well give us a better chance to win out of the gates. And that's why he's the starter for now. Because the org believes he's more ready to handle the games that count at this point in time.
If that turns out to not be the case, and we're not producing offensively and aren't winning - Eli should sit.
Of course Jones is going to make mistakes. But, taking 3 fumbles in 3 games and then proclaiming some nonsense about a 1 fumble per game average is just disingenuous nonsense. It doesn't mean that average is going to accelerate or even maintain. Based on Jones' performance in college, I really don't think this is going to be a major issue.
A lot of QB's are going to struggle to hold onto the ball when they get clocked from behind and then sandwiched on top of it.
The transfer was shoddy on the first one, too.
The only one that's really been all on Daniel so far is the one where he got stripped. Shit happens. He'll learn from it. But not by watching.
The only way to improve in many cases is to play.
With Tate Shep Barkley and Engram and with the improved OL I think this O is going to play on levek or better than what we saw 2nd half last year when we averaged like 27 ppg (much without OBJ).
Shurmur's passing game puts pressure on all levels and we've seen 2nd and 3rd string receivers get consistently open both late in the year last year as well as preseason. I'm not really concerned about the O.
The D's youth at many critical starting spots (though there are signs of great talent potential) is the key factor especially early on.
They are likely going to be fooled by a lot of the little wrinkles teams will be throwing at us. Like we have seen in preseason already.
Fumbling is part of the mistakes that a rookie will do. Again the issue was SY asking "Why not Jones?" WHile Sy mentioned Jones has "fumbling to clean up," it is obvious that in the limited time Jones has played he;s had 3 fumbles. You can't ignore that in one breath then in the other praise how well his passing is and the rest of his game. That wreaks of gross homerism.
Here is the overall absurdity if you take this step by step:
1-- Daniel Jones Shouldn't start because of his lack of experience. However
2-- After the few games one can conclude the fumbles don;t matter.
3-- After a few games one can conclude that he has been so accurate he will throw so few interceptions.
4-- AFter a few games one can conclude he will be so accurate that he'll have a high completion rate.
5-- After a few games we can conclude he has as strong of an arm if not stronger than Eli.
6-- SO if we want to conclude 3,4 and 5 have merit -- because we've seen it with our won eyes, we are going to arbitrarily discount number2??????
****However if you don't agree with 3,4 and 5-- then it sort of proves my point that you go with the Eli which was my reply to SY, doesn't it? Yet we are still stuck on fumbles? SY brought up fumbles - then asked why Jones. If SY didn't think fumbles were such a big deal he wouldn't have had a special note. You say it was an exaggeration yet he specifically spiked it out on one of his 3 points. That doesn't smell like exaggeration to me otherwise he would not have specifically mentioned it..
Unless anyone thinks we have the perfect rookie QB-- between fumbles, interceptions, and completion % he is going to have some major flaw which factors into why you go with Eli. But fumbles IS A PART of experience. If he is NOT a fumbling machine -- great -- but in his rookie year he is then going to have other flaws.
****You have to go back to the context of the post-- "Why not Jones?" If he is not a fumbling machine in one game then another game interceptions then one game bad reads etc then he is a a QB without flaws which would be ridiculous for a rookie QB.
It doesn't work that way.
I don't think anyone realistically expects Jones to continue to complete over 80% of his passes in real games. No one does that.
If we extrapolate what he's done and pace full games out of it, his numbers would be absurd. Everything in each direction is going to settle somewhere in the middle. His fumble pace is not going to stay where it is - nor are his passing numbers.
Jones will make more mistakes and more bad throws when the games count and he's facing starters who aren't holding anything back. But, you can't take a 3 game sample and assume any sort of pace or average based on that.
There are fair reasons to believe Eli affords the Giants a better chance to win - but ball security just shouldn't be one of them. It doesn't make sense.
Throwing long isn't necessarily dependent on throwing time. A short dig route often takes more time to develop than a go or seam route.
His stats so far have been undeniably stellar. But if we dismiss the fumbles because it's pre-season, shouldn't we dismiss the stellar stats for the same reason?
He's performed great in a bunch of ways, but he's got some things to fix and clean up. This would make him... ahead of schedule but still a rookie.
Sy wrote:
But IMO the more likely situation is: The Giants are 5-4 and Eli's play isn't the problem. If they're losing games 35-31 or winning 42-35, and the problem is the defense, then what? Bench Eli when he's playing well? That's going to be a difficult choice. Then what if Jones comes in and plays like a rookie, even a good rookie. Not as well as Eli. Then you really have a QB controversy.
Can you imagine Shurmur, Gettleman and/or Mara standing in front of a press conference and saying: "Eli is arguably our best quarterback today but Daniel is our future. We have to get him ready for next season, when we think we can really begin our run. So we're going to bite the bullet and maybe let go of a couple of wins for this season. We think this is our fastest route back to the Super Bowl and another Lombardi trophy. And if Daniel learns and improves as fast as he has so far, we don't think we're writing this season off at all." I think that is possible, but they'd have to be willing to stand in the fire for benching the guy who they admit gives them the best chance to win.
His stats so far have been undeniably stellar. But if we dismiss the fumbles because it's pre-season, shouldn't we dismiss the stellar stats for the same reason?
He's performed great in a bunch of ways, but he's got some things to fix and clean up. This would make him... ahead of schedule but still a rookie.
Yes yes yes!!!!
It doesn't work that way.
I don't think anyone realistically expects Jones to continue to complete over 80% of his passes in real games. No one does that.
If we extrapolate what he's done and pace full games out of it, his numbers would be absurd. Everything in each direction is going to settle somewhere in the middle. His fumble pace is not going to stay where it is - nor are his passing numbers.
Jones will make more mistakes and more bad throws when the games count and he's facing starters who aren't holding anything back. But, you can't take a 3 game sample and assume any sort of pace or average based on that.
There are fair reasons to believe Eli affords the Giants a better chance to win - but ball security just shouldn't be one of them. It doesn't make sense.
Before we go any further as of right now -- who do you think should be starting as of right now?
I just don't think it is or should be at all about ball security. I am no more confident in Eli protecting the ball than Daniel, really.
The difference is that I think Eli is better equipped to win games that matter right now. When the defenses are really scheming to beat us, the fronts are running stunts and twists, the starters are playing 4 quarters, and everything is happening faster than ever, it's all stuff Eli has countless experience with. Especially on the road, where it's going to be loud and distracting.
I am completely fine going with Eli until he just isn't winning games and isn't getting it done. I just don't want the leash to be so long that there's no change made until we're already out of it and there's only 4-5 games left to play. If we're losing early in the year and the offense isn't clicking - Jones needs to play.
SY made the following comment:
“However, we are now looking at 3 fumbles in 3 games. He has to clean that up.”
Then he asks later:
What does Manning do that Jones cannot? And why does this team have to be losing, or out of the playoff picture, for Jones to take the job?
This is the post I responded to. I did speak of the fumbles BUT I also said things not necessarily to you but either to you and others:
------------------------
“You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that’s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie.”
“You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.”
“Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie.”
----------------
In terms of who we want to see start it’s Eli. When you picked off my 1st sentence of fumbles – did you read the next two paragraphs? BELOW ARE THE NEXT TWO PARAGRAPHS I WROTE AFTER THE FUMBLE. SO we agree Eli should start, right?????????? SO when I replied to SY believing we should go with Eli (and you seem to agree with me on that) you felt a need to rip into me about the fumbling issue?????? SY IS SAYING to a degree “Be concerned about the fumbles,” is he not? And you felt a need to tear into me even though we agree on going with Eli? I say this respectfully—“HOLY SHIT!”
More quotes: THIS ITME IN FAVOR OF ELI JUST AS YOU SUGGEST, ISN'T IT???????
--------------
"You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
"But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones."
I can't anymore - it's like arguing with an out of control teenager. The hysterics and excessive caps lock, punctuation, random line breaks, etc... it's just exhausting.
I argued a shit take about Jones having a fumbling problem based on 3 preseason games. I said nothing about whatever other points were made.
I couldn't even make it through the last response without wanting to rip my hair out, so that's it for me.
It's everyone else's fault.
Until I get a decoder for EliteMobster-speak, I can't agree with or rebuke that which I can't understand
It's everyone else's fault.
Until I get a decoder for EliteMobster-speak, I can't agree with or rebuke that which I can't understand
BUT....YOU COULD MIMIK??..RIGHT?? ofc THAT ***would BE YOUR CHOICE...HMM, HMM?!****
It's funny because I looked up and saw this line:
Who ever made the quote: THIS ITME IN FAVOR OF ELI JUST AS YOU SUGGEST, ISN'T IT???????
Confusion over quotes, using more CAPS than a Coke bottling facility, and unreadable shit.
Good times.
!!!*********
________________
HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!
What I read from that is Eli will be given every opportunity to succeed. I don't think Shurmur really has a choice here, he has to play nice and start Eli. I get the sense that Shurmur is ready to play DJ as soon as Eli slips up. This is his opportunity to show he can develop a QB. I think he gets frustrated with Eli, especially last season but again his hands are tied at the moment imo.
I don't buy into the notion that the fumbles are a problem, too small of a sample size and the nature of the fumbles should be fixable. i think the one under center was just a lack of working together. The one where he got crushed is forgivable, I was happy that he bounced up. the one where he got it smacked out is the only one to be concerned about. he may need to hold it differently but even that one I am not sure about.
I wonder if there is any chance the Giants can trade Eli to the Colts? I mean it seems like the perfect match / opportunity and Eli can play out his career there. Not even for a windfall of picks but a fair deal for both sides. The Colts are a win now team and I think with the OL Eli can be the guy for the short term. If not I think the colts season is lost. they are staring 7-9 or 8-8 in the face. Just an interesting scenario to think about.
I don't know why they go together but they seem to often enough to notice
I don't know why they go together but they seem to often enough to notice
Indeed, Bill... indeed.
Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious
Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious
Fumbles are recorded regardless of who recovers. A lot of times you can also find a "FL" stat too.
The reasoning behind that is a fumble recovery is a somewhat random event, so capturing all the times the ball is free is a better indicator of ball security
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do they get counted only if the other team recovers or anytime a player loses the ball?
Not that this has any bearing on the debate here, just curious
Fumbles are recorded regardless of who recovers. A lot of times you can also find a "FL" stat too.
The reasoning behind that is a fumble recovery is a somewhat random event, so capturing all the times the ball is free is a better indicator of ball security
thanks - makes sense