But how can you get on that 3rd fumble when he was hit from behind after Solder got beat bad. He also fumbled when he was hit as he threw which is not something you can just blame him for
You asked "what can Manning do for the Giants that Jones can't?" I think there are three things. He still looks to have a stronger arm. He has the brains and experience to recognize what's happening when defenses open the bag of tricks they haven't used in preseason. And he has shown the ability to win real NFL games which Jones has so far only promised.
I like Jones (duh) and I understand he promises mobility that has never been Manning's strength. I can also see reasons to start Manning til his performance behind an actual NFL calibre line shows he needs to make way for the next guy. I think too there are negative consequences to starting Jones too early t hat are more long-lasting and serious than those associated with giving Manning the spot.
Let the rookie watch awhile. I really don't understand the rush.
Starting him the first game with a two-time Superbowl MVP one the bench? So what happens to his carefully nurtured confidence (which Shurmur has been doing a great job with btw) after he inevitably shits the bed in a game or two and the media starts asking him, and DG, and Mara, and Eli questions about the wisdom of picking a rookie over Eli?
It is necessary and natural for Eli to get his shot to open the season under center. If Eli can't produce, then you have the answer and justification to any questions from anybody, Eli included, about the switch.
There is no harm in waiting. No rookie has ever won a Super Bowl. The last rookies to win multiple playoff games were Flacco and Sanchez. Jones will not lead us to the promised land this season. No way. No how.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logocal assesment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other trhead? You said on that thread I was blastign Jones or laways blasting Jones on tha thread. In fact I have been very upbeat wiht him in thatI said he is playing good. I aksed you to show me in that trhread in which you accused me of blastign Jomes -- I asked oyu to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te deosn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: SY - Regarding Manning vs Jones Â
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logical assessment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other thread? You said on that thread I was blasting Jones or always blasting Jones on that thread. In fact I have been very upbeat with him in that I said he is playing good. I asked you to show me in that thread in which you accused me of blasting Jones -- I asked you to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te doesn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
No. WHat I;'m saying is he is fumbling too much right now.
You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that;s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie. ELi a HOF's he gets a good OL - he won;t make the same early season mistakes. Right now Jones is showing you what rookies do.
You ever hear of a guy named Jimmy Johnson? He never liked Randall Cunningham. He had a saying that you can apply to any facet of football. He said "I dont judge a player by the plays he makes. Rather I judge him by the plays he doesn't make."
Further, what you call "experience" I call in part "making less mistakes."
You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.
fan friends ask why Jones isn't starting over Eli. Sometimes we are too close and too loyal to our own players, especially our HoF players.
I personally think Eli still gives them a better chance to win, right now. I also think by mid-season Jones will be ready.
that there will still be problems this season. Kudos to DJ in shaking those hits off and continuing to fire the ball downfield.
Maybe its the competition, but I kind of like what Anderson and Tauaefa are showing at backup LB. All the others look like what we have had on the field for years...nothing. Move them up in Game 4 and see if they can impress.
A young developing roster like these Giants also need special teams to make plays this season...that was a nice return/blocking.
Regarding your point - I don’t think I can remember a year where so many rookies are in line to start OR be major pieces to the rotation puzzle on defense - I have to think it’s more on the lack of talent on D. If we don’t get a few surprises to the upside, the D will hold this team back this year.
With regard to rookie starting/playing.....it is a combo Â
At this point I am thinking that Perkins is looking like the second best back on the roster.
I also don’t see the logic in waiting to lose before playing Daniel Jones. It is a great question as to just what does Eli add, a legitimate question, which is why so many others have picked up on it.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Your remarks about our O-line performance reminds me of a recurring thought I keep having:
The Giants need to devote premium Draft picks to their offensive line, and not just in 2020!
Nate Solder is 31 and has trouble with speed.
Remmers is 30 and who knows how long his body will hold up?
Kevin Zeitler is the real deal, but even he is no longer a spring chicken at 29.
Jon Halapio has looked OK so far, but he still has to prove it / show it when the bullets start flying for real.
And our youngest guy Will Hernandez shows lots and lots of promise, but he is by no means a finished product, and as you point can get beat to the inside.
Giants must continue the search for young talent across the front line.
thanks for that about XMan,rather than he is playing cause someone else is not worthy. In football you have your legs and hands to get you where you want to go. He is great with his hands.
Dickerson--thought his blocking deserved a mention Â
appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
How can anyone ignore 3 fumbles in not even a complete game- a rookie at that - for a guy that has yet to start even one game over a guy who is going to the HOF?
It is just mind-blowing how some think you put on a NYG jersey as a Giant and all of sudden you ignore any of the bad you see - and just KNOW it will be alright as a rookie. Mind-blowing.
In the limited time he has played- a communication error between he and the center- yet it's not his fault. The ball slips from his hand it is not his fault. He fumbles while getting hit by a lineman it's not his fault. Jones would be averaging about 4 fumbles a game. Right now Jones fumbling is "off-the-charts" but let's ignore all of that. SUre buddy. Let's just turn a blind eye on all the fumbles and high rate of fumbles with Jones. Yeah okay.
How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable.
SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Usually only fumbles lost count.
If a player is putting the ball on the ground -- you mean that wouldn't be a stat to worry about? You would only worry about the end result?
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts.
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
RE: RE: Dickerson--thought his blocking deserved a mention Â
appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
Ya think? At 27, Simonson is what he is, which is not very good, and he most likely won't get any better. In the Spring I described the 24-year old Dickerson as a slower, less athletic version of Evan Engram, which might be correct on its face, but also might be a massive undersell. He's done very well for himself this summer.
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever...
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever... because we can't risk that he might fumble in a game that counts.
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever...
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager and people will be more considerate of whatever you're trying to argue.
Did you not say "Eli does not fumble in the manner that Jones does" ?
How can you know that? Eli has been a turnover machine for almost his entire career. Jones has played 3 preseason games.
You are drawing conclusions based on inadequate info.
If you want to post another wacky diatribe about it with random caps lock and asterisks all over the place, feel free.
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
He DID NOT have that problem in college and he won't have it here. Because he's been so great so far folks need to find SOMETHING to complain about. Enough.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.
Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.
Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...
1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games
You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
I wouldn't doubt if Jones was told not to run, meanwhile Lauletta is running all over the place. And no screens or fancy stuff, so rushers get to pin their years back. Also no Barkley.
This is the wrong question. Its the wrong goal. Its slightly cart before horse
The question is not Eli vs Jones. The goal is not a transition, the goal is a successful transition
Its when will the OL play enough so that we can see it is good enough against first tier NFl line and blitzing concepts?
When do the right mix of WR's show consistent route running and separation?
When those are as "roughly right" as they are going to be this year, then the foundation for a successful transition is present and the clock can begin ticking.
that if he never took snaps under center and those are muscle memory tasks that we all assume he will master why not give him more time to accumulate unthinking consistency?
if where to look and how to mask where the ball is going has to be faster and more subtle at NFl speed...keep doing it
if he is on a tremendous learning curve...get to whatever plateau he is getting to
Another month while the OL and Wr jell is not going to hurt
Nor ...nor...nor is the value of the opposing DC's seeing that you have to respect and plan for SB and EE and that the inner OL does very well against the run and the pass.
No Giants Qb has had a DC who had to account for a running game or a TE mismatch or a Giants OL that was competent.
Let him transition when the Defenses are guessing more about the 2019 Giants playbook, a half second and a step back. And while the Ol provides a half second more (and they will need to do that for we don't have a quick separating WR crew beyond SS and Tate).
imo every edge counts in a transition...lets get those first
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
You are twisting his comments.
Am I? BTW thanks for replying in a civil manner.
Where am I wrong? Please don't take my question wrong-- I am not being hostile with you. I have so many posters telling me I'm miserable. I'm not - and I am not angry in asking this. -- What am I twisting? I don't see what I'm twisting. He's ripping me for the fumbles yet I have also added that I believe rookies tend to make more mistakes. I made that comment before his initial rip into me.
This is what I said when I replied to eric at 12:29am:
"BUT IN THE INTERIM-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past."
JAY ON THE ISLAND-- - so arc is focusing on the fumbles. But I used more than fumbles, didn't I? I mean look at my 12:29 am post. I I am using more than fumbles and speaking of a rookie-- then isn't he ignoring what I said he was ignoring (History of the NFL with rookie QB's) if he is so focused on fumbles and not inclduing rookie mistakes?
**At 1:41 am I rpelied to deejboy the follwoing: - Beofr earc psoted ot me:
"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
Where am I in the wrong here? I've read arc before -- I've always thought he was respectful. Now I think he went off the depend. From what I've just replied to you here-- I'm speaking of fumbles AND also overall rookie performance. He keeps coming back at me "literally" with fumbles. He is responding to me. SO he thinks my view is wrong, right? My view was a reply to SY when he spoke of "Why not Jones?" SY spoke of the 3 games. The three games were enough of a concern that SY made a special note to remark upon the fumbling issue. We're not going to gloss over it, are we? We're not ignroing his fine performances, are we? We can remark that he is accurate. But yet we can't remark -- even as sy suggests- there is a concern with fumbles right now.// along with concern all the time for rookies? ANd now I'll be bitched at by other posters again "for being a hater."
Thanks for the effort, looking forward to reading this!
I like Jones (duh) and I understand he promises mobility that has never been Manning's strength. I can also see reasons to start Manning til his performance behind an actual NFL calibre line shows he needs to make way for the next guy. I think too there are negative consequences to starting Jones too early t hat are more long-lasting and serious than those associated with giving Manning the spot.
Jones replacing Eli at some point....is the circle of life.
Eli needing to replace Jones.....would be a disaster.
Starting him the first game with a two-time Superbowl MVP one the bench? So what happens to his carefully nurtured confidence (which Shurmur has been doing a great job with btw) after he inevitably shits the bed in a game or two and the media starts asking him, and DG, and Mara, and Eli questions about the wisdom of picking a rookie over Eli?
It is necessary and natural for Eli to get his shot to open the season under center. If Eli can't produce, then you have the answer and justification to any questions from anybody, Eli included, about the switch.
There is no harm in waiting. No rookie has ever won a Super Bowl. The last rookies to win multiple playoff games were Flacco and Sanchez. Jones will not lead us to the promised land this season. No way. No how.
But Eli actually might.
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/profile - ( New Window )
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
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In comment 14543254 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logocal assesment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other trhead? You said on that thread I was blastign Jones or laways blasting Jones on tha thread. In fact I have been very upbeat wiht him in thatI said he is playing good. I aksed you to show me in that trhread in which you accused me of blastign Jomes -- I asked oyu to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te deosn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
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In comment 14543304 giantstock said:
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In comment 14543254 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
And then you wonder why people think you're negative. Eli has a 15 year career of fumbling...a lot. Jones fumbles a couple of times in the preseason of his rookie year and he already fumbles more than Eli. You'll probably be the first people to tell people it's only preseason.
Yeah I'm "negative." I want the Hof'r who has won 2 championships to start because I think he gives us the best chance of winning. Sure okay buddy.
At least this time you didn't lie on your reply to me like you did last time accusing me that I said Jones has not been good.
You're negative because you latch on to his one weakness so far and blow it out of proportion.
But please continue with these dramatic posts. "Lie" lol.
What you call "I blwo out of proportion" I call a logical assessment not prone to be a cheerleader.
You didnt lie on that other thread? You said on that thread I was blasting Jones or always blasting Jones on that thread. In fact I have been very upbeat with him in that I said he is playing good. I asked you to show me in that thread in which you accused me of blasting Jones -- I asked you to provide the link. You didn;t. SO I'm to assume that you didnt lie?
YOU ACCUSED ME of saying bad things about Barkley on that thread so you could bash away ta me. I asked you to show me what I said that was os bad -- and you all of sudden stopped posting. SO it's okay for you to attack me by calling me miserable. And say things like I'm blasting Jones yet I can't call you a liar if what you are posting is not true asyou personally attakc me? I'm blwoing thigns up out or porportion as you insultme???? C'mon.
I'll add this. When the GMen get good for a consistent amount of time -- you're gonna read posts from me ripping those that are nitpicking. But what you don't seem to grasp is that I expect a 6-10 team. I've seen lousy football a lot lately just as you have. If it was 1 year or two within a good run it would be no big deal. But what if you don't trust DG? It's not like I'm the only who doesn't trust him. For example David Te doesn't. Yet the majority of this board does. Great! My voice is in a big minority. WHy you get your panties twisted over I'm "all negative" while most posts on here are positive? -- to me it shows you want to hear only one voice- positive. One poster gets you twisted that much vs the majority of positive? And it's not like me predicting 6-10 is some outrageous thing. And if you are 6-10 -- not everything is positive.
I meant Jones not Barkley.
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There are games where Eli has fumbled when nobody from the other team has touched him. Remember that terrible fumble against the Eagles?
More than the INTs in recent years, Eli has had a problem holding onto the ball when touched.
Beyond all of that, regarding Daniel Jones, one fumble was a botched exchange, one he had the ball slapped out of his hand, and the last one no QB in the League would have held onto the football.
Yes you can always point to a game where any QB (not Tom Brady) was deficient. But in this case Jones - has he even played a toal of 4 quarters yet? ANd he has already 3 fumbles? SO you are going to isolate only the bad from Eli while Jones has this many fumbles?
Those are fumbles. They count. He hasn't even played an entire game.
He's gotten a pass rush and he's fumbled. He has had a sloppy play in which the ball slipped out of his hand - it a fumble. He has had a botched play between him and the center -- it's a fumble. I'm not saying Jones stinks -- I'm saying Eli won;t average 3 fumbles per game in the limited time Jones has shown.
These are rookie mistakes not caused other than the sack. These type of mistakes are common for rookies. They need repetition. SO far have you sen Eli make these mistakes this preseason? We havent Not to the degree of Jones. Jones is doing fine. But he is rookie. These mistakes are inherent for a rookie. If Jones were to play a full game - and we prorate his current minutes to a full game, how many fumbles will he have averaged? That's hwy Eli early on is better. --
ANd yes just ;like everyone else on here I expect Jones to take over for Eli. And the way he is looking so far our future looks bright. We don't have Barkley playing.
But in the interim-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past.
And just a fyi in case bestfeature and bigblueshock and any of the "bills" are reading this -- I'm am extremely happy with Jones so far. AND AND AND for the 1,000 time if Jones is as good as he is showing we're all going to watch our team be awesome -- which imo would probably be in 2020. To me-- Barkley is unreal. He gets a good Jones and an OL -- we're going to be super to watch. I didn;t get a chance to watch much of Payton or Sanders in their prime but Barkley could surpass these great guys (I didn;t say he would! Now after I said this I fear I'll be called a Barkley hater by some.).
You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
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You really think Jones is going to average 1 fumble a game???? He is not going to average 1 fumble a game anymore than he is going to have an 83% completion percentage based on the preseason. Jones doesn't have Eli's experience. But he does have a better arm and is a far superior athlete. So other than experience Eli offers nothing over Jones.
No. WHat I;'m saying is he is fumbling too much right now.
You want to ignore what rookies normally do - which is a make mistakes that;s fine. But if you think there is some magic that "our rookie" won't be highly prone to make more mistakes that a a seasoned vet to start things off- I think you are grossly mistaken. These type of mistakes are inherent for a rookie. ELi a HOF's he gets a good OL - he won;t make the same early season mistakes. Right now Jones is showing you what rookies do.
You ever hear of a guy named Jimmy Johnson? He never liked Randall Cunningham. He had a saying that you can apply to any facet of football. He said "I dont judge a player by the plays he makes. Rather I judge him by the plays he doesn't make."
Further, what you call "experience" I call in part "making less mistakes."
You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi.
I personally think Eli still gives them a better chance to win, right now. I also think by mid-season Jones will be ready.
Thanks Sy.
Maybe its the competition, but I kind of like what Anderson and Tauaefa are showing at backup LB. All the others look like what we have had on the field for years...nothing. Move them up in Game 4 and see if they can impress.
A young developing roster like these Giants also need special teams to make plays this season...that was a nice return/blocking.
If Connerly, Xmen plays....it is due to lack of quality on roster.
At this point I am thinking that Perkins is looking like the second best back on the roster.
I also don’t see the logic in waiting to lose before playing Daniel Jones. It is a great question as to just what does Eli add, a legitimate question, which is why so many others have picked up on it.
Thanks again.
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Usually only fumbles lost count.
...for informative, insightful review.
Your remarks about our O-line performance reminds me of a recurring thought I keep having:
The Giants need to devote premium Draft picks to their offensive line, and not just in 2020!
Nate Solder is 31 and has trouble with speed.
Remmers is 30 and who knows how long his body will hold up?
Kevin Zeitler is the real deal, but even he is no longer a spring chicken at 29.
Jon Halapio has looked OK so far, but he still has to prove it / show it when the bullets start flying for real.
And our youngest guy Will Hernandez shows lots and lots of promise, but he is by no means a finished product, and as you point can get beat to the inside.
Giants must continue the search for young talent across the front line.
Excellent point
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
How can anyone ignore 3 fumbles in not even a complete game- a rookie at that - for a guy that has yet to start even one game over a guy who is going to the HOF?
It is just mind-blowing how some think you put on a NYG jersey as a Giant and all of sudden you ignore any of the bad you see - and just KNOW it will be alright as a rookie. Mind-blowing.
In the limited time he has played- a communication error between he and the center- yet it's not his fault. The ball slips from his hand it is not his fault. He fumbles while getting hit by a lineman it's not his fault. Jones would be averaging about 4 fumbles a game. Right now Jones fumbling is "off-the-charts" but let's ignore all of that. SUre buddy. Let's just turn a blind eye on all the fumbles and high rate of fumbles with Jones. Yeah okay.
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career.
SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable.
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In comment 14543289 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 14543242 giantstock said:
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SY - I'm surprised you asked the question "what does Eli do that Jones doesn't."
Eli doesn't fumble in the manner Jones is.
You're right Jones can replace ELi at any time but I think most have said - if team is winning but ELi isn't playing well - then you can go to Jones."
But right now out of the gate you've even acknowledged Eli is better by mentioning Jones fumbling, haven't you? SO at least 1st few games we should see how things transpire. ANd at the moment ELi is struggling - depends on the situation ofc-- then yes go with Jones.
I'm a big fan of Manning, but he's had fumbling issues from the beginning.
I got to disagree in context. With protection he's been shown to be a HOF'r. In 3 games Jones has had 3 fumbles. Eli is not that bad. QB's fumble but Jones is averaging one per game.
Usually only fumbles lost count.
If a player is putting the ball on the ground -- you mean that wouldn't be a stat to worry about? You would only worry about the end result?
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
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appears more stout and powerful than Simonson, with some YAC running ability as you do mention. For a vet, that drop by Simonson with no defender within 5 yards was I think killer for his chances. Dare I say it? Dickerson seems to have some of the ability that JR told the world the Giants were getting in, first AR the JPP of TEs, and then Jerell Adams. OK, now I've jinxed him with JR TE curse.
I am definitely of the opinion that Dickerson is a better TE than Simonson and that he is going to beat Simonson out this year. I also think Dickerson has way more upside.
Ya think? At 27, Simonson is what he is, which is not very good, and he most likely won't get any better. In the Spring I described the 24-year old Dickerson as a slower, less athletic version of Evan Engram, which might be correct on its face, but also might be a massive undersell. He's done very well for himself this summer.
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Eli Manning has fumbled 122 times in his career - including 7 times last year and 11 the year before.
So, according to you - we know, based on a 3 game preseason sample size (the first Jones has played in his entire career, mind you..) that he will continue to fumble at the same rate - and will pace 16+ fumbles per season.
Jones essentially had zero experience under center in college. The only way to work through this is reps and experience. Drawing conclusions that Jones has some sort of major fumbling problem based on this tiny sample size, and then expressing confidence in Manning to be a guy we won't need to worry about - when he's led the NFL in turnovers multiple times in his career - is just a completely nonsensical take. Sorry, it's garbage. Do better.
This is spot on.
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Good call. So, we should just keep Jones on the bench forever...
You see this type of bullshit is the type of nonsense you never seem to have problem blasting anyone when they blast the Giants -- you go after them for exaggerating.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
SO here you are with your crap that my comments imply we should keep Jones on the bench forever. Yeah -- I said it's fine and at some point if GMEN lose or if ELi struggles then replace him.
But yeah go ahead and misreprsent what I said by implying I meant "forever" EVEN THOUGH MY PRIOR POSTS INDICATES START ELI EARLY ON IN REPLY TO SY.
Read all the posts and read what I initially replied ot in that context instead for flapping your mouth picking off a sentence of mien and twisting it to your narrative. You are doing exactly the same shit you are accusing others that have blasted the Giants or Jones which you feel unfairly.
**And it's apparent YOU choose to ignore my point about rookie QB's. It goes in one ear and out the other, doesn't it? You are choosing to look at ELi's career but yet ignore the point that rookie QB's -- HISTORY OF THE NFL TRUMPS the ELi stats you are using -- the history of the NFL tells us rookie QB's will be highly prone for more errors.
Again read my posts in context and read that I say use Jones once ELi stumbles for a bit or GMen lose. But go ahead with twisting my comments ot fit your narrative.
Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager and people will be more considerate of whatever you're trying to argue.
Did you not say "Eli does not fumble in the manner that Jones does" ?
How can you know that? Eli has been a turnover machine for almost his entire career. Jones has played 3 preseason games.
You are drawing conclusions based on inadequate info.
If you want to post another wacky diatribe about it with random caps lock and asterisks all over the place, feel free.
Your argument still sucks.
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Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager
I love it.
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
You are twisting his comments.
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In comment 14543766 giantstock said:
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Maybe stop posting like an angry teenager
I love it.
Now it's all my fault that posters like you misreprsent mypost. If you'll notice I have been non-angry toward those that show respect.
Blowhards like you just look in your own narrow view. You're the one that started this crap with me. You misrrepresent my post and yet "I'm the angry teenager."
I'm all for being respectful. But when posters like you act like an ass-0 you're going to get a hostile reply back.
If you think what I said sucks -- fine. But trying to misreprsent what I said -- it was apparent that was your speed.
I took an exact quote from your post and argued it.
Did you not say what I quoted? I'm not misrepresenting anything. You flew off the rails because several people pointed out your shitty and pointless premise.
Again - how could you possibly know that Daniel Jones is going to have more of a fumbling issue than Manning when...
1. Manning has had issues with it through his ENTIRE career spanning a decade and a half, and...
2. Jones did not have notable fumbling issues @ Duke
3. Jones has played a whopping 3 preseason games
You're desperately reaching to create issues that likely aren't issues and can't argue your way out of a paper bag without acting like an unhinged lunatic, so.. here we are.
The question is not Eli vs Jones. The goal is not a transition, the goal is a successful transition
Its when will the OL play enough so that we can see it is good enough against first tier NFl line and blitzing concepts?
When do the right mix of WR's show consistent route running and separation?
When those are as "roughly right" as they are going to be this year, then the foundation for a successful transition is present and the clock can begin ticking.
imo
if where to look and how to mask where the ball is going has to be faster and more subtle at NFl speed...keep doing it
if he is on a tremendous learning curve...get to whatever plateau he is getting to
Another month while the OL and Wr jell is not going to hurt
Nor ...nor...nor is the value of the opposing DC's seeing that you have to respect and plan for SB and EE and that the inner OL does very well against the run and the pass.
No Giants Qb has had a DC who had to account for a running game or a TE mismatch or a Giants OL that was competent.
Let him transition when the Defenses are guessing more about the 2019 Giants playbook, a half second and a step back. And while the Ol provides a half second more (and they will need to do that for we don't have a quick separating WR crew beyond SS and Tate).
imo every edge counts in a transition...lets get those first
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WHy don';t you read ALL what I said and the CONTeXT of my initial reply to SY? Instead of COMPLETELY COMPLETELY misreprsenting my post?
I said Jones is doing FINE. I said it mroe thna once. The point I replied ot was SY asked / implied why not start Jones right away.
You're doing the same thing here replying to arc. "SO we're supposed to IGNORE the entire "rookies tend to make mistakes" an ENTIRE HISTORY of teh NFL regarding rookies -- because it just soo happens OUR GUY won;t be so bad. Unbeleivable."
This is what arc said "How can someone seriously use fumbles as the case for Eli over Jones when it has been an issue for Eli literally his ENTIRE career?
Some takes around here are just mind-blowing. Suddenly a 3 game preseason sample size trumps a 15 year career."
You are twisting his comments.
Am I? BTW thanks for replying in a civil manner.
Where am I wrong? Please don't take my question wrong-- I am not being hostile with you. I have so many posters telling me I'm miserable. I'm not - and I am not angry in asking this. -- What am I twisting? I don't see what I'm twisting. He's ripping me for the fumbles yet I have also added that I believe rookies tend to make more mistakes. I made that comment before his initial rip into me.
This is what I said when I replied to eric at 12:29am:
"BUT IN THE INTERIM-- we can agree to disagree. I think these fumbles are the type of mistakes rookies do more often than the vet. The frequency in which Jones is doing these at this moment in time far surpassed what ELi has done in the past."
JAY ON THE ISLAND-- - so arc is focusing on the fumbles. But I used more than fumbles, didn't I? I mean look at my 12:29 am post. I I am using more than fumbles and speaking of a rookie-- then isn't he ignoring what I said he was ignoring (History of the NFL with rookie QB's) if he is so focused on fumbles and not inclduing rookie mistakes?
**At 1:41 am I rpelied to deejboy the follwoing: - Beofr earc psoted ot me:
"You are taking the number of fumbles too literal. The number of fumbles highlights that a rookie is more apt to commit more mistakes rather than a HOF player like ELi."
Where am I in the wrong here? I've read arc before -- I've always thought he was respectful. Now I think he went off the depend. From what I've just replied to you here-- I'm speaking of fumbles AND also overall rookie performance. He keeps coming back at me "literally" with fumbles. He is responding to me. SO he thinks my view is wrong, right? My view was a reply to SY when he spoke of "Why not Jones?" SY spoke of the 3 games. The three games were enough of a concern that SY made a special note to remark upon the fumbling issue. We're not going to gloss over it, are we? We're not ignroing his fine performances, are we? We can remark that he is accurate. But yet we can't remark -- even as sy suggests- there is a concern with fumbles right now.// along with concern all the time for rookies? ANd now I'll be bitched at by other posters again "for being a hater."
Put that on NFL tape in 2019 then talk transition