Excuse my earlier math. I meant 16 quarters of extra football.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
Excuse my earlier math. I meant 16 quarters of extra football.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
amen on the last point. The Eli excuse train is at end of the line. Im sure his apologists will invent another whipping boy or three to deflect blame (or play the same tired tune of pointing the finger at the legacy of Reese and Ross drafting (curiously omitting Coughlin who was a major stakeholder in talent evaluation and selection))
I respect and appreciate Manning's willingness to eat it the last 2 years as the Giants stumbled their way into finding a replacement.
Let's face it, he's been a crash test dummy as a whole line of people made mistakes since 2017: Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo, Gettleman, and Shurmur.
And he'll likely be called on to do it again before it's coat weather -- this time it will be his ego and not his body. I don't like watching it, and I am as critical as anyone of him.
He's got a rookie who so clearly belongs in the NFL, a team that's improving but not proven, and a coach and GM whose continued employment in the NFL is tied to the rookie not to him.
It's going to be a bummer hearing the boos, seeing the media turn, and Manning eventually holding the clipboard on his way out.
If the Giants don't start at least 2-2 it's time for Jones to play Â
If they can't win 2 games out of Buffalo, Tampa and Washington with 2 of them being home games it's time to start the Jones era. Whatever that will be. But it won't surprise me if the GM and HC will want to wait using Eli as a fall guy to try and save their jobs which knowing the Mara's are not in any jeopardy at all no matter what happens in 2019.
Got the feeling that Gettleman could only trade Eli with Mara's blessing.
It makes most sense when a starting QB goes down injured and is out for the season and the organisation is not confident in their backup.
As it stands, Indianapolis would be be delivering a big kick in the teeth to Brissett and if I were him, I would be furious if they brought in Manning. Not going to happen, especially when you consider the difference in the two players's salaries.
Excuse my earlier math. I meant 16 quarters of extra football.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
mirrored my thoughts on this exactly in another thread about when to play DJ. Daniel Jones should start when Daniel Jones is ready. Not a minute before he is ready, but also not a minute after either. He is the future, we have DJ for a limited time under a cost contained salary structure (basically four years) and he is our future. As soon as he is ready to handle it and we hold him back to play Eli, we are hurting the future of the franchise. It is the unfortunate truth of football these days, the rookie contract for a productive QB is so valuable that you want to get the ball moving in that direction so when year 2 runs around, DJ can help team while not learning all the ropes. People say look at the Chiefs--Mahomes came in and they almost won the Super Bowl, I get that. I also saw that the Eagles started Wentz year one and were on a tear before he got injured in year 2. So, it works both ways
With respect to trading Eli. I would obviously not want it to end like that--I love Eli, but if DJ is ready now and some team wants to compensate us for Eli (and Eli is willing to go along with it), we would have to be pretty stupid not to do it if it was good compensation. On the other hand, if DJ is not ready, then it is not even worth discussing.
Fatman you think after Mahomes threw for 50 tds literally last year Â
this sentiment would have died. I guess now that he has experience we are going to see 70 tds this year.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
Yep, and the "advantageous rookie QB contract" argument also does not apply this year - we're paying Eli still.
It will apply when we are no longer paying Eli.
Look, as soon as we kept Eli on the books @ 23M this year, he was going to be the starter. If the Giants didn't intend on playing Eli and trying to win games with him, they wouldn't be paying him.
As long as NYG don't continue to send Eli out there long after it becomes evident he's not the answer; what we're doing here isn't a big deal.
Either Eli wins games and the Giants are competitive this season, or Eli takes a seat and Daniel gets the bulk of the starts.
So many of the people here didn't even want Daniel Jones at all.... not 6th, not 17th... they didn't want him.
Now, it's a tremendous issue if he doesn't play as soon as humanly possible.
this sentiment would have died. I guess now that he has experience we are going to see 70 tds this year.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
When you step back and look at the entirety of a playing career, there's very little that points directly to experience having a huge part. While learning the difference in the speed from the college game to the pro game has to happen, it doesn't take years to master that.
If experience was such a crucial part of the game, you'd expect to see linear growth out of most players, yet the stats show otherwise. Statistically speaking, a starter in year 1-2 of a career has as much of a chance to regress in years 3-4 as they do to improve. And that continues throughout the career. WR's should hit their strides in years 4-6 if they gain the experience of route running and body positioning, but that isn't the case. Rookie RB's are as likely to have the same production in year 1 vs. years 3 or 5.
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
'didn't even want Daniel Jones at all...Now, it's a tremendous issue' Â
That's funny and ironic because it's true. Nice post.
Eli should start the season. Why? Because this team has a chance to flip the script on recent years and make the playoffs. It's a slim chance but it's there. The only way that happens is if we get off to a fast start. Eli gives this team the best chance to do that.
If and when that slim chance evaporates we'll all be ready to move on and give DJ the reins for what will hopefully be a long and successful career.
As far as the Indy scenario or any other Eli trade before this season plays out forget it. BBI can have as many 300+ post threads about it as it likes, it just isn't happening.
RE: RE: Fatman you think after Mahomes threw for 50 tds literally last year Â
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
RE: RE: RE: Fatman you think after Mahomes threw for 50 tds literally last year Â
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
if FMIC reads through this thread (which was actually a great conversation with you not around to fire bomb it), you will see that is not the case
I'm pretty confident a Jones led team for 16 games this year would win more games than a Manning team. I don't have any problems stating that. I'd guess Manning's ceiling is 7 wins and Jone's is 9.
All things equal if game experience doesn't expedite growth, and the only risk is "ruining" Jones, I don't think that applies to the Giants. They have an extraordinary RB, a veteran offensive line, a solid if not spectacular group of WRs, a speedy and versatile starting TE, and reliable blocking TE.
Gettleman has done a fine job fielding a supporting cast that doesn't mirror the typical situation a rookie QB walks into.
I'd say Jones fresher arm, better legs, and nice touch in the short to intermediate game is to his advantage.
Now imagine if the Giants would have acquired a much cheaper vet (another disproven boogie man from the offseason) to be the insurance if Jones hadn't have been ready.
(a month before preseason started) didn't even want Jones within a 100 mile radius of East Rutherford, now not only want him on the team, but want him to start NOW.
Guys, it's coming, relax. Whether it's later this season or 2020 Week 1, it's coming. Jones' career won't be damaged if he doesn't start until Week 1 2020. Relax.
...having an Iron Man QB is NOT par for the course.
Teams NEED 2 quality QB's.
Lauletta is completely unproven. So is Jones for that matter - yeah, looks LIGHTS OUT in preseason. It's preseason.
Like Phil Simms, Eli Manning is completely disrespected by his own fans, and like Phil Simms, he will be worshipped only when he is gone.
I've posted this before -- in addition to the on-the-field factors -- I also would like Manning spared the indignity and circus of being replaced mid season.
I wanted Manning to be spared the physical beating and ridicule of lining up behind a ridiculously bad line last year and getting beat like bag.
We have different definitions of "worship" maybe -- I'd rather respect and appreciate the guy on the way out, and not piss on his legacy.
I think Manning has accomplished plenty enough as a Giant, has been a fabulous representative of the franchise, and made a literal fortune.
Jay Glazer
@JayGlazer
Jay Gruden names Case Keenum starter, waiting for McCoy to heal, they’d like to redshirt Haskins for the year and not rush him
Haskins always needed a year to work on things away from live bullets. His feet are still a disgrace to the art of quarterbacking. He gets away with it because of his insane arm, but it definitely isn't sustainable in the NFL. Their offensive line is also a mess right now. I can't believe they are actually making the smart move here, but I give it till week 8 when they are 2-5 and Danny Boy wants to see his new toy.
Lets rephrase this to match the earlier discussion on this thread... Â
The idea that Giants will have their development stunted by not playing Jones early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced.
why would we wait to play him? If he is not ready, I get that. But if he DJ is ready, what is the upside to starting Eli at this point? It is not about getting rid of Eli, it is about embracing the future that the Giants have selected to go. Why delay it?
Why would anyone offer the Giants anything, they have zero leverage. Not sure Eli would be better than Brissett in their system anytime soon. I think Brissett has significant upside. I do think Manning is headed for a good year with the Giants. I don't see trade value though. None.
I'm not sold because I think Brissett is going to be good.
But a case can be made to go for an Eli type. The Colts have multitude of high round picks. Can you imagine if they called and offered a 2nd or 3rd for Eli?
Not saying he should start. I think Eli should be given the chance to win.
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
All of the QBs drafted have talent. They are the best in the entire world. Even if they could handle it in college, most of them, when they get to the pros, cannot handle the pressure. They just crumble. Jones is a fucking rock. Think about what would have happened should he have had a shitty preseason?
Under the microscope of every decision he makes in game being scrutinized, ever throw in practice, Jones has continued to exceed expectations. We got a good one, everyone who keeps saying put on the brakes. I'm saying get real excited. He can handle intense pressure and scrutiny, he throws with accuracy, touch and anticipation.
If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
RE: RE: it will be Eli who nixes it because he has a no trade clause. Â
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
Ultimately I think that's the most impressive thing about him, and is the foundation for the physical feats that have impressed us.
First game of preseason, after weeks of being referred to as among the (if not THE) worst top ten draft pick in decades or even all time, and he plays about as perfectly as a rookie QB can in his first appearance against an opponent, with not a shred of chalance.
Second game, after discussion about whether this was a fluke, does the same thing and shakes off two negative plays that could, under other circumstances, precipitate a downward spiral.
Third game, after yet even further discussion about whether this was a fluke and after being plastered, throws some absolutely ballsy F-you tosses.
It's still early yet but we've seen this play out before. I think the guy has that proverbial IT about him, and I might just be done doubting whether he'll rise to the occasion. I think he'd do so to the absolute limits of whatever his ability happens to be at any given time, and what's more, he may actually benefit from moments of misfortune.
RE: Everyone keeps mentioning Eli's no trade clause Â
If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
not doubting you but curious where you saw this
I know he said playing his entire career for the Giants is important to him
Because Indy likely suspects Brissett will be better in that offense and has upside. If I am Indy I would not trade for Eli Manning. If it were 2011, different ballgame.
RE: RE: RE: it will be Eli who nixes it because he has a no trade clause. Â
yeah, kind of makes this 300 post thread moot, doesn't it?
Not really. Most of the posts in here that were interesting were about whether there is a QB controversy and if Giants are better off playing DJ earlier.
the Indy thing was more of a side-bar...
RE: RE: Everyone keeps mentioning Eli's no trade clause Â
[/quote]
You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it. [/quote]
Good post. My prediction is Eli plays really well this year, they are in contention or make playoffs and Eli plays for a team like the Colts next year because he has proven he can still play but the Giants want to start a new chapter.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
Let's face it, he's been a crash test dummy as a whole line of people made mistakes since 2017: Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo, Gettleman, and Shurmur.
And he'll likely be called on to do it again before it's coat weather -- this time it will be his ego and not his body. I don't like watching it, and I am as critical as anyone of him.
He's got a rookie who so clearly belongs in the NFL, a team that's improving but not proven, and a coach and GM whose continued employment in the NFL is tied to the rookie not to him.
It's going to be a bummer hearing the boos, seeing the media turn, and Manning eventually holding the clipboard on his way out.
It makes most sense when a starting QB goes down injured and is out for the season and the organisation is not confident in their backup.
As it stands, Indianapolis would be be delivering a big kick in the teeth to Brissett and if I were him, I would be furious if they brought in Manning. Not going to happen, especially when you consider the difference in the two players's salaries.
Gettleman can only trade eli with Eli's blessing...
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
With respect to trading Eli. I would obviously not want it to end like that--I love Eli, but if DJ is ready now and some team wants to compensate us for Eli (and Eli is willing to go along with it), we would have to be pretty stupid not to do it if it was good compensation. On the other hand, if DJ is not ready, then it is not even worth discussing.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
Quote:
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
Yep, and the "advantageous rookie QB contract" argument also does not apply this year - we're paying Eli still.
It will apply when we are no longer paying Eli.
Look, as soon as we kept Eli on the books @ 23M this year, he was going to be the starter. If the Giants didn't intend on playing Eli and trying to win games with him, they wouldn't be paying him.
As long as NYG don't continue to send Eli out there long after it becomes evident he's not the answer; what we're doing here isn't a big deal.
Either Eli wins games and the Giants are competitive this season, or Eli takes a seat and Daniel gets the bulk of the starts.
So many of the people here didn't even want Daniel Jones at all.... not 6th, not 17th... they didn't want him.
Now, it's a tremendous issue if he doesn't play as soon as humanly possible.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
When you step back and look at the entirety of a playing career, there's very little that points directly to experience having a huge part. While learning the difference in the speed from the college game to the pro game has to happen, it doesn't take years to master that.
If experience was such a crucial part of the game, you'd expect to see linear growth out of most players, yet the stats show otherwise. Statistically speaking, a starter in year 1-2 of a career has as much of a chance to regress in years 3-4 as they do to improve. And that continues throughout the career. WR's should hit their strides in years 4-6 if they gain the experience of route running and body positioning, but that isn't the case. Rookie RB's are as likely to have the same production in year 1 vs. years 3 or 5.
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Eli should start the season. Why? Because this team has a chance to flip the script on recent years and make the playoffs. It's a slim chance but it's there. The only way that happens is if we get off to a fast start. Eli gives this team the best chance to do that.
If and when that slim chance evaporates we'll all be ready to move on and give DJ the reins for what will hopefully be a long and successful career.
As far as the Indy scenario or any other Eli trade before this season plays out forget it. BBI can have as many 300+ post threads about it as it likes, it just isn't happening.
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
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The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
if FMIC reads through this thread (which was actually a great conversation with you not around to fire bomb it), you will see that is not the case
All things equal if game experience doesn't expedite growth, and the only risk is "ruining" Jones, I don't think that applies to the Giants. They have an extraordinary RB, a veteran offensive line, a solid if not spectacular group of WRs, a speedy and versatile starting TE, and reliable blocking TE.
Gettleman has done a fine job fielding a supporting cast that doesn't mirror the typical situation a rookie QB walks into.
I'd say Jones fresher arm, better legs, and nice touch in the short to intermediate game is to his advantage.
Now imagine if the Giants would have acquired a much cheaper vet (another disproven boogie man from the offseason) to be the insurance if Jones hadn't have been ready.
@JayGlazer
Jay Gruden names Case Keenum starter, waiting for McCoy to heal, they’d like to redshirt Haskins for the year and not rush him
Guys, it's coming, relax. Whether it's later this season or 2020 Week 1, it's coming. Jones' career won't be damaged if he doesn't start until Week 1 2020. Relax.
Not you
Teams NEED 2 quality QB's.
Lauletta is completely unproven. So is Jones for that matter - yeah, looks LIGHTS OUT in preseason. It's preseason.
Like Phil Simms, Eli Manning is completely disrespected by his own fans, and like Phil Simms, he will be worshipped only when he is gone.
Teams NEED 2 quality QB's.
Lauletta is completely unproven. So is Jones for that matter - yeah, looks LIGHTS OUT in preseason. It's preseason.
Like Phil Simms, Eli Manning is completely disrespected by his own fans, and like Phil Simms, he will be worshipped only when he is gone.
I've posted this before -- in addition to the on-the-field factors -- I also would like Manning spared the indignity and circus of being replaced mid season.
I wanted Manning to be spared the physical beating and ridicule of lining up behind a ridiculously bad line last year and getting beat like bag.
We have different definitions of "worship" maybe -- I'd rather respect and appreciate the guy on the way out, and not piss on his legacy.
I think Manning has accomplished plenty enough as a Giant, has been a fabulous representative of the franchise, and made a literal fortune.
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Jay Glazer
@JayGlazer
Jay Gruden names Case Keenum starter, waiting for McCoy to heal, they’d like to redshirt Haskins for the year and not rush him
Haskins always needed a year to work on things away from live bullets. His feet are still a disgrace to the art of quarterbacking. He gets away with it because of his insane arm, but it definitely isn't sustainable in the NFL. Their offensive line is also a mess right now. I can't believe they are actually making the smart move here, but I give it till week 8 when they are 2-5 and Danny Boy wants to see his new toy.
I'm not sold because I think Brissett is going to be good.
But a case can be made to go for an Eli type. The Colts have multitude of high round picks. Can you imagine if they called and offered a 2nd or 3rd for Eli?
We'd have to take that in a NY minute - right?
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
All of the QBs drafted have talent. They are the best in the entire world. Even if they could handle it in college, most of them, when they get to the pros, cannot handle the pressure. They just crumble. Jones is a fucking rock. Think about what would have happened should he have had a shitty preseason?
Under the microscope of every decision he makes in game being scrutinized, ever throw in practice, Jones has continued to exceed expectations. We got a good one, everyone who keeps saying put on the brakes. I'm saying get real excited. He can handle intense pressure and scrutiny, he throws with accuracy, touch and anticipation.
I'm hoping Indy makes a request for Eli and we find out Mara nixed it. And it was a 2nd rounder.
This place would be on tilt... ;)
that pesky no-trade thing...
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
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that pesky no-trade thing...
yeah, kind of makes this 300 post thread moot, doesn't it?
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
Ultimately I think that's the most impressive thing about him, and is the foundation for the physical feats that have impressed us.
First game of preseason, after weeks of being referred to as among the (if not THE) worst top ten draft pick in decades or even all time, and he plays about as perfectly as a rookie QB can in his first appearance against an opponent, with not a shred of chalance.
Second game, after discussion about whether this was a fluke, does the same thing and shakes off two negative plays that could, under other circumstances, precipitate a downward spiral.
Third game, after yet even further discussion about whether this was a fluke and after being plastered, throws some absolutely ballsy F-you tosses.
It's still early yet but we've seen this play out before. I think the guy has that proverbial IT about him, and I might just be done doubting whether he'll rise to the occasion. I think he'd do so to the absolute limits of whatever his ability happens to be at any given time, and what's more, he may actually benefit from moments of misfortune.
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
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If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
not doubting you but curious where you saw this
I know he said playing his entire career for the Giants is important to him
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In comment 14544944 Britt in VA said:
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that pesky no-trade thing...
yeah, kind of makes this 300 post thread moot, doesn't it?
Not really. Most of the posts in here that were interesting were about whether there is a QB controversy and if Giants are better off playing DJ earlier.
the Indy thing was more of a side-bar...
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
I know I asked above, but tried searching for anything related to this in google, nothing came up. Was it something he said in an interview?
I wouldn't past Mara to insist on a no trade clause in Eli's contract... ;)
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with his no trade clause contract, too bad that was allowed to happen because Eli is driving this bus now...
I wouldn't past Mara to insist on a no trade clause in Eli's contract... ;)
pretty funny
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You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it. [/quote]
Good post. My prediction is Eli plays really well this year, they are in contention or make playoffs and Eli plays for a team like the Colts next year because he has proven he can still play but the Giants want to start a new chapter.