It actually makes perfect sense if he wants to continue his career for a few more years. Send him to Indy for a 3rd and a 5th and away we go with DJ while Eli writes his final chapter. Unless his plan is to retire at the end of this year.
The team turned down multiple offers for jacoby brissett. I don't see any logical reason for them to rent an older QB who hasn't played particularly well in recent years.
I know this isn't going to happen. And I know the Rafflee is going to take a ton of shit for posting this.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Giants are too invested (meaning they want him to finish a Giant) in Eli. Eli wants to finish a Giant. Colts are going to invest in a close to 40 qb when a strong qb class is ahead in draft. Nothing to see here
I know this isn't going to happen. And I know the Rafflee is going to take a ton of shit for posting this.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Giants are too invested (meaning they want him to finish a Giant) in Eli. Eli wants to finish a Giant. Colts are going to invest in a close to 40 qb when a strong qb class is ahead in draft. Nothing to see here
I just think that the Colts are very confident in Brissett. IIRC the Colts were offered a 1st or 2nd for Brissett last year but they turned it down.
The Colts are a team on the rise. They have a great offensive line, talent at both WR and TE, and a very good defense. Eli would be in an ideal situation and would provide great insurance for Brissett not working out.
Jones would start obviously with Tanney as the backup and Lauletta the #3.
I know this isn't going to happen. And I know the Rafflee is going to take a ton of shit for posting this.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
There really isn’t any logic other than being a fan trying to make the connection. They like Brissett and, his salary is minuscule. What sense does it make for them to add on Eli’s contract? Especially when they just paid a bonus to a QB who just retired.
I’d love it to happen too. But, this is simply a pipe dream, perfect scenario for Giants fans due to how Jones has played in the pre-season.
And I’m one of the biggest Eli supporters on this site.
Eli is a lame duck QB. The successor has showed promise in the preseason. The Giants would get cap relief trading him.
The Colts have a good roster in a soft division. Eli would fit well in an offense with a good OL, nice receiving options, and solid running game. He’d be playing in a dome/good weather most of the season. There would be no obvious successor on the roster. Not many QBs in the AFC would have the playoff chops he has. None would have the success he has vs the Pats.
if this was late July, but the season starts in less than two weeks.
veteran or not, Eli would have to learn an entirely new system overnight, and it would send a message of incredible lack of confidence in Brisset who they seem to like.
And are the Giants willing to drop that kind of bomb to get, what, a mid-round pick or two?
I don't think that you are seeing Eli as other teams see him - Â
as having played in and lost one playoff game in the last seven seasons. You can really stop right there.
I like the idea of Jones not getting thrown into the starting lineup right away. So far everything has gone the way the Giants would have scripted it. He has outplayed Murray and Haskins.
He still has more tests to pass - like playing under fierce pressure - and I'm glad he isn't getting thrown to the wolves, or the Cowboys, in two weeks. The 'Boys defense is looking pretty tough right now and if Jones was pummeled by them and turned the ball over it could set back his confidence level.
if this was late July, but the season starts in less than two weeks.
veteran or not, Eli would have to learn an entirely new system overnight, and it would send a message of incredible lack of confidence in Brisset who they seem to like.
And are the Giants willing to drop that kind of bomb to get, what, a mid-round pick or two?
Brissett started for the Colts 7 days after being acquired. He was entering year two. Eli would have no problem picking up the offense IF their intention was for him to start week one. I would love to get Parris Campbell in return.
Yeah, I don't think this one is happening. And for people saying it makes sense - if you were Eli would you want to go to play in the town your brother owned for 15 years and is a legend? I think Indy is near the bottom of his list(if he has one).
as having played in and lost one playoff game in the last seven seasons. You can really stop right there.
I like the idea of Jones not getting thrown into the starting lineup right away. So far everything has gone the way the Giants would have scripted it. He has outplayed Murray and Haskins.
He still has more tests to pass - like playing under fierce pressure - and I'm glad he isn't getting thrown to the wolves, or the Cowboys, in two weeks. The 'Boys defense is looking pretty tough right now and if Jones was pummeled by them and turned the ball over it could set back his confidence level.
Eli looked good vs the Colts last year and played well in the last playoff game he played.
Brissett is a JAG. This is a lost season for a cost controlled, talented roster if Brissett is the guy for 16 games. Eli gives them a chance to not only make the playoffs but make noise in the playoffs.
This fan base and Joe Public have an odd take on Eli. If Ryan Fitzpatrick can get starting jobs Eli can.
And I’m one of the biggest Eli supporters on this site.
Eli is a lame duck QB. The successor has showed promise in the preseason. The Giants would get cap relief trading him.
The Colts have a good roster in a soft division. Eli would fit well in an offense with a good OL, nice receiving options, and solid running game. He’d be playing in a dome/good weather most of the season. There would be no obvious successor on the roster. Not many QBs in the AFC would have the playoff chops he has. None would have the success he has vs the Pats.
This is just so dumb. You’re literally looking at it from just one side, the Giant fan centric side. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though.
It makes zero sense, from the Colts standpoint, for them to trade anything of value for an aging QB, making a lot of money, when they have a pretty good back up in Brissett (who they wouldn’t trade) and the fall back option of tanking and drafting from a crop of talented college QB’s.
Trading Eli would be great. None of the ideas here make any sense for the other side though.
If the Colts are winning with Brissett, but then he gets hurt, Â
They're in for one of two outcomes - either Brissett is a halfway decent QB and he works well with their roster, or he stinks and they tank and add a high draft pick in a QB heavy year.
That roster isn't an Eli Manning away from winning it all. They might not be an Eli Manning away from going deep into the playoffs, even Luck wasn't going to guarantee them that.
RE: If the Colts are winning with Brissett, but then he gets hurt, Â
as having played in and lost one playoff game in the last seven seasons. You can really stop right there.
I like the idea of Jones not getting thrown into the starting lineup right away. So far everything has gone the way the Giants would have scripted it. He has outplayed Murray and Haskins.
He still has more tests to pass - like playing under fierce pressure - and I'm glad he isn't getting thrown to the wolves, or the Cowboys, in two weeks. The 'Boys defense is looking pretty tough right now and if Jones was pummeled by them and turned the ball over it could set back his confidence level.
Eli looked good vs the Colts last year and played well in the last playoff game he played.
Brissett is a JAG. This is a lost season for a cost controlled, talented roster if Brissett is the guy for 16 games. Eli gives them a chance to not only make the playoffs but make noise in the playoffs.
This fan base and Joe Public have an odd take on Eli. If Ryan Fitzpatrick can get starting jobs Eli can.
Could not agree more. Guys like Foles get big money. Eli would have a contact in a heartbeat.
And I’m one of the biggest Eli supporters on this site.
Eli is a lame duck QB. The successor has showed promise in the preseason. The Giants would get cap relief trading him.
The Colts have a good roster in a soft division. Eli would fit well in an offense with a good OL, nice receiving options, and solid running game. He’d be playing in a dome/good weather most of the season. There would be no obvious successor on the roster. Not many QBs in the AFC would have the playoff chops he has. None would have the success he has vs the Pats.
This is just so dumb. You’re literally looking at it from just one side, the Giant fan centric side. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though.
It makes zero sense, from the Colts standpoint, for them to trade anything of value for an aging QB, making a lot of money, when they have a pretty good back up in Brissett (who they wouldn’t trade) and the fall back option of tanking and drafting from a crop of talented college QB’s.
Trading Eli would be great. None of the ideas here make any sense for the other side though.
A “pretty good backup” doesn’t mean jackshit when now he’s the de facto starter for a team with aspirations of a deep playoff run.
And for your fallback option of tanking for a QB — I don’t know if the colts organization would say they got the ROI they expected the last time they tried that.
he has lost the mobility needed to evade the pass rush, even if only a single blitzer is coming in unblocked.
I've seen lots of occasions when other teams quarterbacks evaded a blitzing Collins or another player from the back seven just by sidestepping them. Eli used to be able to do this, as in the helmet catch. Now he can't.
That's why his play when the team was out of contention last season and his play in preseason mean very little.
But why debate it. In two weeks Eli will face the Cowboys in a hostile environment. If Eli stays on his feet and doesn't turn the ball over then I'll be the first to apologize for a wrong opinion.
so it's up to him if it were for this year. It would be a great situation for him IMHO. Dome, solid OL, run game, good core players, etc. I can see the Colts bringing him in and even extending him. However, we lose the opportunity for him to mentor Daniel this year and despite what many on here believe, I feel that is important. I believe it helped him to be mentored by Kurt just like it helped Mahommes to be mentored by Alex Smith. I like the sit and learn approach. Montana to Young. Favre to Rogers.
However, next year he is a FA if the Giants don't somehow retain him. Next year could be interesting. Eli could again mentor a young QB like a Tua for example. Would the Giants resign him as trade bait? Doubt it.
I have no words for this, and I know your not joking.
RAflee - just another example of some here who believe by stating the absurd they are making their pt. Some people are incapable of changing their mind once an opinion has been formulated, and as we read yesterday in the threads where some media are spinning Jones’ early success in a less than flattering manner; are so set in their opinion it makes little sense to engage them.
Indy has known about this for a week or so and they have little interest to give up any draft capital to get a 1 or 2 year rental.
In their view, they will see if Brissett can improve from his 2017 performance with a better roster surrounding him this year. If not, they will try to use the draft capital they have to trade up next year.
No QB is going to walk into a new system 2 weeks before the season and succeed.
Manning isn't winning any more games than Brisset this year. And if they are going to suck, better do it on the cheap than trade and asset and pay more for Manning.
They're in for one of two outcomes - either Brissett is a halfway decent QB and he works well with their roster, or he stinks and they tank and add a high draft pick in a QB heavy year.
That roster isn't an Eli Manning away from winning it all. They might not be an Eli Manning away from going deep into the playoffs, even Luck wasn't going to guarantee them that.
Good post. This.
RE: If the Colts are winning with Brissett, but then he gets hurt, Â
I say "all parties", I am selfishly meaning Jones and Manning.
For those of you who are too young (or too old - ha) to remember Simms-Hostetler, this Manning-Jones thing is going to get ugly. And nothing will convince me otherwise.
Whatever you think about Giants fans, they get downright NASTY when they pick side in a QB controversy. And yes, we're officially there now.
is not a starting QB I have no idea where people get the idea he is good. 3000yds 17 tds and 7 ints doesn't mean he is good.
Have you seen the guy play? He’s a big dude accurate passer and has a hell of a strong arm. BB praised him for his intelligence when he was a patriot. I see him as a slightly below average starter but he does have room to grow. That colt team is a good one. Sneaky talent
We're officially in the middle of a QB controversy.
Not that Shurmur hasn't had his questionable communication moments, but until he opens the door more with a struggling Eli (if it happens) the only QB controversy seems to be with fans...
This is not a team winning anything, with or without Manning, and they like Brissette. There is also a good QB class in the wings if Brissette does not play well to set them up going forward.
A trade to the Colts is a wonderful way for the GIants to complete the transition to Jones and end their QB controversy, but it makes no sense from the Colts side, unless they just want to help the Giants out by taking on their own QB controversy.
I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Do you actually recognize that at least half the fans want Jones starting now?
I would argue that starting Jones right now makes a certain degree of sense.
Hostetler was coming off a Superbowl win and a head coaching change. He was also a veteran ala Steve Young a few years later. That's a better comparison: Montana to Young.
We're not talking apples to apples, here. There is a precedent for what is happening here. Brees to Rivers: No controversy. Favre to Rodgers: No controversy. Alex Smith to Mahomes: No controversy.
I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
You're fooling yourself if you don't think we are in the middle of a QB controversy. And it is going to get worse and worse with each incompletion, interception, and loss.
And then you'll be posting how mean half of BBI is.
The Giants have been extremely clear in their intentions.... Â
You're fooling yourself if you don't think we are in the middle of a QB controversy. And it is going to get worse and worse with each incompletion, interception, and loss.
And then you'll be posting how mean half of BBI is.
How stupid they are, maybe.
RE: The Giants have been extremely clear in their intentions.... Â
I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
Fans second guessed Eli when we didn't even have Jones.
I am not arguing the Giants have a chance to win the superbowl, but this franchise has showed more than enough loyalty to Eli and the optimism of a brand new season to allow them to force this decision earlier than needed.
Jones will start in 2019 but I would shocked if its before Oct
If any part of the fan base has not accepted that Eli is the week 1... Â
starter and will remain so until they are out of contention or he is not helping them win games then they are delusional and not living based in reality.
You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
You're fooling yourself if you don't think we are in the middle of a QB controversy. And it is going to get worse and worse with each incompletion, interception, and loss.
And then you'll be posting how mean half of BBI is.
starter and will remain so until they are out of contention or he is not helping them win games then they are delusional and not living based in reality.
You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
The Giants have been clear in their intention.
Britt, a person can logically argue the following:
Why is Manning starting? This is a rebuilding year. We are wasting Saquon Barkley's limited shelf life on making sure that Eli finishes his career in a Giants uniform. What is more important the team or Eli? the sooner Jones plays, the sooner he enters his prime when Saquon is still in his prime. Jones needs to get out the lumps now and not in 2020 and 2021.
Contention? Contention for what? The Super Bowl?
On the flip side, if the coaching staff may not want to throw Jones to the wolves yet. But if this team is 4-6 or even 5-5 by game 10, what was the point?
starter and will remain so until they are out of contention or he is not helping them win games then they are delusional and not living based in reality.
You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
The Giants have been clear in their intention.
Britt, a person can logically argue the following:
Why is Manning starting? This is a rebuilding year. We are wasting Saquon Barkley's limited shelf life on making sure that Eli finishes his career in a Giants uniform. What is more important the team or Eli? the sooner Jones plays, the sooner he enters his prime when Saquon is still in his prime. Jones needs to get out the lumps now and not in 2020 and 2021.
Contention? Contention for what? The Super Bowl?
On the flip side, if the coaching staff may not want to throw Jones to the wolves yet. But if this team is 4-6 or even 5-5 by game 10, what was the point?
Sure, you can logically argue it. But the Giants have logically come to the conclusion that this is the path going forward. They specifically cited Smith to Mahomes in Kansas City. They feel that Jones will benefit from sitting and learning a little bit more. Maybe they want to give him a little more time since he's coming from Duke and not Ohio St.... Who knows.
But this is the path they've chosen. Now we can "logically" argue it, just like we can logically argue that Manning should be traded to Indy despite the myriad of reasons it can't happen (number one being Manning's no trade clause), then I guess we can participate in that exercise in futility.
RE: RE: If any part of the fan base has not accepted that Eli is the week 1... Â
What is more important the team or Eli? the sooner Jones plays, the sooner he enters his prime when Saquon is still in his prime. Jones needs to get out the lumps now and not in 2020 and 2021.
We had a long thread debate a few days ago that experience for a young QB doesn't really matter. That statistics showed QBs developed or not developed equally.
No Giants official has said that. It's the assumption by fans who could very be right. Mara may want Eli to start every game. Shurmur may want to go the Manning-Warner route and start Jones even with a winning record.
Beyond what the team wants, the fans will want something else. And yes, fan pressure matters. Just see what happened when Manning was benched. Did you see how fast the Giants scrambled in damage control?
What the Giants do, what they should do, and what the fans want them to do, doesn't always line up.
Guessing what the Giants will do in this situation isn't tough -- they chose to pay Manning his full salary and he's been no. 1 on the chart. He's going to start.
But controversies aren't about guessing what will happen, they are born out of what outsiders think should happen.
What the Giants do, what they should do, and what the fans want them to do, doesn't always line up.
Guessing what the Giants will do in this situation isn't tough -- they chose to pay Manning his full salary and he's been no. 1 on the chart. He's going to start.
But controversies aren't about guessing what will happen, they are born out of what outsiders think should happen.
I am not saying what I am saying because I don't like Manning.
I don't think you guys realize how ugly this is going to get for Eli.
Eli's W-L record is 116-114. He could actually finish his career in New York with a losing record. More than that, he could finish his career hearing boos and being benched.
It may be best for Eli to play for a legit Super Bowl contender at this point and not deal with this shit.
This picture is just a preview...
What's funny is 90% of fans on BBI absolutely trashed the Daniel Jones Â
we know you love Eli, as we all do, but to put blinders on to the fact that Jones has basically been the most impressive QB in all of football in the preseason is just silly. He’s looked great in practice too. If Eli has a shitty game or games, and we start out in a hole, it will be a circus around here. Do you know how the NY media works?
RE: What's funny is 90% of fans on BBI absolutely trashed the Daniel Jones Â
we know you love Eli, as we all do, but to put blinders on to the fact that Jones has basically been the most impressive QB in all of football in the preseason is just silly. He’s looked great in practice too. If Eli has a shitty game or games, and we start out in a hole, it will be a circus around here. Do you know how the NY media works?
On the flip side, if Jones were to start, and struggle (which he probably will - remember Eli's rookie year?), half the fan base will say, "Bench him and start Eli again!"
Shades of Simms-Hostetler.
It never ended until the Giants let Hostetler go.
RE: What's funny is 90% of fans on BBI absolutely trashed the Daniel Jones Â
pick (I didn't, I loved it), and Gettleman for making it, and now after three preseason games we have a QB controversy.
That's what I think is funny.
Our feelings about the pick have nothing to do with it. The decision was made, and Jones’ development should now be the priority. The most meaningless games in Giants history were the nine Kurt Warner started in 2004. We’re about to add Eli’s 2019 starts onto that list.
I am not saying what I am saying because I don't like Manning.
I don't think you guys realize how ugly this is going to get for Eli.
Eli's W-L record is 116-114. He could actually finish his career in New York with a losing record. More than that, he could finish his career hearing boos and being benched.
It may be best for Eli to play for a legit Super Bowl contender at this point and not deal with this shit.
This picture is just a preview...
I see it going the same way.
Hopefully both Eli and/or Giants fans perform better than I predict them to
was made is basically a moot point now. We all know the media is garbage and they are just gonna do whatever fits their narrative for clicks. It’s up to Shurmur to start the guy who gives us the best chance to win. And right now, you can’t say with 100% certainty that it’s Eli.
First, it allows Manning and the Giants to part ways gracefully and without any bitter controversy. It preserves his legacy in Blue and leaves us all feeling like it ended well.
Second, if the worst case happens and everything goes off the rails again, it allows us to get at least a full season with Jones before the Justin Herbert/Tua quarterback class and TWO full seasons before Trevor Lawrence enters the NFL. I don't want the Giants to be knee-jerk like the Cardinals, but it's always better to know exactly what you have rather than be caught in 4-6 win limbo for a decade.
that there is a QB controversy. It started right after Jones was drafted. The first incomplete pass Eli throws against Dallas many will call for his benching. God forbid he throws a pick or the offense stalls for one half of football. Many fans and the media will start burning Eli in effigy and calling for the young buck. As stated above, they might actually be right.
Luckily the Giants have a head coach who is a proven winner and who has demonstrated many times he can weather adversity and keep his team going. Oh wait.
I think the Giants are mediocre out the gate and Shurmur pulls the plug on Eli to save his job. Jones does ok but is lit up in a game and in the concussion protocol/injured, bringing Eli back into the QB1 spot since he is apparently indestructible. Talk about irony.
But there is no doubt a QB controversy now and in my option the Giants should have jettisoned Eli as soon as they decided to draft a QB.
It will get brutal for Eli no doubt about it. What will be interesting will be how Jones does now that a good preseason start has many anointing him the second coming.
Do you actually recognize that at least half the fans want Jones starting now?
I would argue that starting Jones right now makes a certain degree of sense.
I totally agree. Eli is at this point in time nothing more than a placeholder for Jones. The only way he plays the whole season is if they’re winning and he’s playing well. There is a controversy brewing because Eli is clearly on the decline and they’ve brought in his successor.
I personally think the leash on Eli is a lot shorter in Shurmur’s mind than John Mara want us to believe. At this point there is no benefit in playing Eli unless the team has a shot to win while playing Jones gives a head start looking forward to the future. Actually they might have a better chance of winning this year by playing Jones.
I always hated it when NY teams traded away Hall of Fame or almost Â
Hall of Fame level players. The Yankees traded Ruth; the Knicks traded Frazier; the Mets traded Seaver. I don't like it on principle. I understand it's done for practical reasons, but they never seem to yield the intended results. My hope is that Eli retires as a New York Giant.
think Eli is primed to have a good year, which makes this even tougher.
I think he is going to have a good year by Eli career standards, but not a good by NFL wise standards. He will perform better than 2017 but 2011 Eli isn't coming back.
I don't think he is going to be able to elevate the team over the shitty defense and lack of a deep threat.
The amount of whining that is going to happen if we go 2-4 or at 5-5 Â
and go to Jones is not going to be a lot of people, but there will be a very vocal minority. I'd argue a 5-5 record and looking at the last 6, we are only going to be favored in 1 or 2 of those games we need to go to Jones.
Look at our last six games Eagles twice, Bears on road, Packers, Dolphins, Redskins on road. The only game we are going to be favored in is Dolphins, maybe Skins. The schedule makers did us no favors by Making the back half of the schedule much tougher.
First, it allows Manning and the Giants to part ways gracefully and without any bitter controversy. It preserves his legacy in Blue and leaves us all feeling like it ended well.
Second, if the worst case happens and everything goes off the rails again, it allows us to get at least a full season with Jones before the Justin Herbert/Tua quarterback class and TWO full seasons before Trevor Lawrence enters the NFL. I don't want the Giants to be knee-jerk like the Cardinals, but it's always better to know exactly what you have rather than be caught in 4-6 win limbo for a decade.
I also agree with Eric and I think what’s also being forgotten here is the Players no matter what they say I think they already know that they have a better chance with Jones ...... imo Eli is going to have to play lights out or it’s going to get ugly for him.....
think Eli is primed to have a good year, which makes this even tougher.
I think he is going to have a good year by Eli career standards, but not a good by NFL wise standards. He will perform better than 2017 but 2011 Eli isn't coming back.
I don't think he is going to be able to elevate the team over the shitty defense and lack of a deep threat.
That is where Saquon will be a weapon. I think he is such a threat that teams will have to creep closer and closer. I'm not sure a homerun threat is required as much.
that's what I mean... I think Eli will build upon his very solid second-half of the 2018 season. Eli actually played well down the stretch last year. And that should continue.
But again, perception matters. And fans will over-react to every incompletion, interception, and loss.
(Same thing with Jones as long as Eli is on the roster).
agree with Eric. We are in the middle of a QB controversy, just as we were when Eli was a rookie and Warner was starting. The Giants used a high first round pick in both cases on a franchise QB. That inevitably creates a QB controversy. In this case, it's even greater because as Eric says, Eli is in danger of finishing his Giants career with a losing record. Jones has also played extremely well during the preseason and camp, and clearly has the confidence of his teammates. Another factor is that Eli is in the last year of his deal.
But I'd be stunned if Eli is traded to the Colts or anyone else, and not just because he has a no trade clause. Even if he waived that clause, I don't think the Giants and any other team would agree on the compensation.
My guess is this is Eli's last year with the Giants, and at that point, he'll have to make a decision about whether to retire, or finish his career with another team. Many QBs in his situation have done the latter, including Montana and Favre.
agree with Eric. We are in the middle of a QB controversy, just as we were when Eli was a rookie and Warner was starting. The Giants used a high first round pick in both cases on a franchise QB. That inevitably creates a QB controversy. In this case, it's even greater because as Eric says, Eli is in danger of finishing his Giants career with a losing record. Jones has also played extremely well during the preseason and camp, and clearly has the confidence of his teammates. Another factor is that Eli is in the last year of his deal.
But I'd be stunned if Eli is traded to the Colts or anyone else, and not just because he has a no trade clause. Even if he waived that clause, I don't think the Giants and any other team would agree on the compensation.
My guess is this is Eli's last year with the Giants, and at that point, he'll have to make a decision about whether to retire, or finish his career with another team. Many QBs in his situation have done the latter, including Montana and Favre.
So did his brother.
And people need to stop dreaming about Lawrence. We have no shot Â
No Giants official has said that. It's the assumption by fans who could very be right. Mara may want Eli to start every game. Shurmur may want to go the Manning-Warner route and start Jones even with a winning record.
Beyond what the team wants, the fans will want something else. And yes, fan pressure matters. Just see what happened when Manning was benched. Did you see how fast the Giants scrambled in damage control?
Eric, you’re 100% right that fan pressure matters. I think it matters a lot more now to John Mara than it did to his father. I don’t think it’s because he cares more but he’s the guy who charged us season ticket holders PSLs so he’s got a lot more angry fans and empty seats to deal with.
that's what I mean... I think Eli will build upon his very solid second-half of the 2018 season. Eli actually played well down the stretch last year. And that should continue.
But again, perception matters. And fans will over-react to every incompletion, interception, and loss.
(Same thing with Jones as long as Eli is on the roster).
But, Eric, fans have been overreacting to every incompletion, interception and loss for the past 16 years. The truth of the matter is that despite the 2 SB wins, Eli doesn't embody what they perceive what a franchise QB should be. They want the fiery leader. They want the player that creates off-script. Heck, our very own GM (Reese) didn't want Eli. He criticized Eli about his Hang-dog look. If it weren't for the first SB, Reese likely would have had the opportunity to pick his own guy.
I don't think the QB play on this team has been above the league average for 5+ years now. If we draft a QB #6 overall, I want him to press or replace the starter as soon as possible. Just assuming a meritocracy (which it should be) the sooner Daniel Jones replaces Eli Manning as the starter, the better for the franchise.
and a QB controversy could be good for us, perhaps a desperate makes an offer to trade for Eli that he and the Giants are content to move forward on.
Eli's career here is coming near its end, no matter how vested the Giants are in him for 2019. There's no contract for 2020, they drafted his replacement.
RE: RE: What's funny is 90% of fans on BBI absolutely trashed the Daniel Jones Â
pick (I didn't, I loved it), and Gettleman for making it, and now after three preseason games we have a QB controversy.
That's what I think is funny.
Our feelings about the pick have nothing to do with it. The decision was made, and Jones’ development should now be the priority. The most meaningless games in Giants history were the nine Kurt Warner started in 2004. We’re about to add Eli’s 2019 starts onto that list.
But we’re talking about fan driven reactions by the team here, and their so called ability to influence a controversy or not.
I’m simply saying we’re not there yet despite fans and the media’s best effort. And frankly we won’t be until Manning struggles. That’s my take.
When you start thinking like a fan, you’re sitting with them. The Giants have a very clear vision for this and will carry it out.
we know you love Eli, as we all do, but to put blinders on to the fact that Jones has basically been the most impressive QB in all of football in the preseason is just silly. He’s looked great in practice too. If Eli has a shitty game or games, and we start out in a hole, it will be a circus around here. Do you know how the NY media works?
Has nothing to do with loving Eli. I was one of the few here that wanted and was happy with the pick of Jones. I’m ready for the next chapter, but I don’t want to rush it for the sake of appeasing fans. I want a professional succession plan and that’s what we’re getting right now.
The Giants started 5-2 with Warner as the starter. After two straight losses the Giants made the switch to Eli despite being in contention for a playoff spot. Warner's turnovers were a big reason why they lost both games.
If Eli is playing well enough and they are in contention then he will remain the starter. If they are in contention in spite of Eli then I expect Jones to replace Eli as the starter.
and Eli knows Jones is the future. Eli will have a few options next year when his contract runs out. Jones can get his on the field training next year. Lot of rookie QBs have been ruined by throwing them out there prematurely.
For the people who talk about Eli's poor record - might want to go back and look at the supporting cast he had for most of those years, including a mediocre defense.
Jones has every QB shooked to the point Luck retired and Eli blocking Â
I am not saying what I am saying because I don't like Manning.
I don't think you guys realize how ugly this is going to get for Eli.
Eli's W-L record is 116-114. He could actually finish his career in New York with a losing record. More than that, he could finish his career hearing boos and being benched.
It may be best for Eli to play for a legit Super Bowl contender at this point and not deal with this shit.
This picture is just a preview...
Wow.
Sic transit gloria mundi
RE: Jones has every QB shooked to the point Luck retired and Eli blocking Â
Eli's dad, lot of HOF QBs spent there last year(s) under tough conditions. Eli loves the game - is mentally tough - understands the NY media and fan base. Think he'll survive
The Giants started 5-2 with Warner as the starter. After two straight losses the Giants made the switch to Eli despite being in contention for a playoff spot. Warner's turnovers were a big reason why they lost both games.
If Eli is playing well enough and they are in contention then he will remain the starter. If they are in contention in spite of Eli then I expect Jones to replace Eli as the starter.
I hope you are right but fear this will be closer to 2017 when they waited for mathematical elimination
In your hypothetical , if the giants start out strong, they are not going to make a switch after 2 bad games.
Seriously? “We’ll see” if this happens with eli? Have you been watching this team the past 3 seasons? Eli has at times been part of the reason this team stinks.
RE: The switch from Warner to Eli was made because Warner was Â
you don’t want to “rush it” ???? You could argue they should have moved on from Eli 3 seasons ago. They are literally doing the opposite of rushing it. They are playing it out until the bitter end.
If they are in the playoff hunt, they will go with the guy that gives them the best chance to win. RIGHT NOW, they believe that is Eli. How long they continue to believe that is up to Eli.
Just remember this, once they go to Jones, they can't go back.
you don’t want to “rush it” ???? You could argue they should have moved on from Eli 3 seasons ago. They are literally doing the opposite of rushing it. They are playing it out until the bitter end.
I want them to do what they believe is the best approach, not what fans want.
you don’t want to “rush it” ???? You could argue they should have moved on from Eli 3 seasons ago. They are literally doing the opposite of rushing it. They are playing it out until the bitter end.
I agree with this. They certainly are not rushing anything.
If they are in the playoff hunt, they will go with the guy that gives them the best chance to win. RIGHT NOW, they believe that is Eli. How long they continue to believe that is up to Eli.
Just remember this, once they go to Jones, they can't go back.
Thats not what they did in 2004 though. You can't tell me they made the switch because they thought Eli gave them a better chance to win. No way, even in the state he was in Kurt posts a 0.0 passer rating in a game.
And while I agree with you, its a shame that they cant switch back and forth. Seems silly to me.
who say they can't go back seem to forget the last time Simms lost his job or Manning. Teams, including the Giants, can go back and forth and make situations worse.
3 years ago when he was 35 and coming off a 35 TD seasson? Â
You think they should have gotten rid of him then?
They shouldn't rush it. Roethlisberger is getting an extension. Phillip Rivers is getting one after this season. Brees and Brady are playing into their 40's.
Now you'll argue that Manning isn't in their class. That's fine. But he's a physically capable franchise QB.
The decline that has been discussed here constantly for the past five years or so is overblown. It's time to start planning for his future, sure. But that doesn't mean he's not capable, or hasn't been capable for the past three years. That's why the Giants have a pretty decent situation. They don't have to throw Jones out there until they want to.
stepped onto the field in preseason game 1, and looked competent, and has stayed white hot since, we have officially entered a full blown QB controversy. And this is only going to get more complicated whether Eli plays well or poorly.
Because at 38, with 39 a few months away, Eli is not going to get better. No matter how hard the EFC tries.
Now a large portion of the fan base have a huge curiosity about the new toy selected at #6. Their interested are now piqued. A toy that is younger, bigger, stronger, and more athletic than the old toy. A toy who has played out of his mind in preseason.
But you seem to think that not starting Jones is the best approach. It is very possible this is not the best approach.
I'm ready to see Jones when they think he's ready for primetime.
what do you think Jones can do to show he is ready once the season starts? Be able to digest the game plan? I'm pretty sure he can do that already.
That's for Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman to decide.
But what are they deciding on? What is there to grade him on once the season starts? The answer is there really isn't anything Jones can do to show that he is ready above what he has already done.
With the way our oline played last game, I'm starting to think Jones Â
but I'm sure there are very specific things they are looking for that are multifaceted, and probably bigger than just Daniel Jones.
Let's just say hypothetically, the Giants start out 4-0, and looking pretty good. Manning is playing lights out.
Then they drop one. You ready to yank Manning and roll the dice? That makes the decision much harder.
It's a fluid decision, and will remain so. As Pat Shurmur has said a billion times now, when it's Jones time to play, he'll be ready. They are very aware of their situation. All of it.
he has played somewhat "out of his mind" during preseason, but the environment changes when the regular season starts (e.g., more blitzing, disguising coverages). I know you that, but it's one good reason to let him learn on the sidelines.
Pretty clear, Eli will not be here after this season. You don't draft a guy at 6 to let him sit two years, and Eli will have other options.
RE: Even the shell of Kurt Warner got nine games, Â
I believe Pat hen he says that when its Dan's time, he will be ready.
I'm just afraid that they are going to delay that time for as long as possible out of sentimentality towards Eli.
As I stated before, that wont be the worst thing in the world and not something that will set the franchise back decades or any other extreme argument. Just wont be whats in the best long term interest of the franchise.
I think a very likely scenario is Eli plays really well Â
worst thing the Giants could do is believe Daniel Jones could start now, but play Eli.
But if they don't think Jones can play now, starting Eli makes more sense.
The sooner Daniel plays, the better it is for the Giants as a franchise. They need to not worry about Eli's legacy. Eli's legacy is over. It's a two-time Super Bowl MVP who saw the second half of his career sabotaged by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross.
I don't mean that they are going to try to retard Jones development as some tried to pin on me on another thread.
One way to interpret that quote is: once Jones is ready, he will play.
Another way to interpret is: When Eli or the team shows that they are not going to be competitive and nothing will be lost by starting a rookie, Jones will be ready (and probably will have been for weeks / months)
I believe the correct interpretation is the latter.
RE: I think a very likely scenario is Eli plays really well Â
I think Eli gives them the best chance to win when the real games start. Jones will get his chance soon enough, before the season ends if Eli falters.
Mahomes sitting a year didn't hurt his performance
Sure. And I basically said above if the coaches think he's not ready, he should sit.
But if if he is ready - even if doesn't give the Giants the better chance to win in the short-term - then sitting him makes little sense. Again, Barkley's shelf life is only so long. We don't have the luxury of giving Eli a goodbye season here.
that suggests that he is not ready to start week 1. Sure, sitting Mahomes a year did not hurt him. I can give you many more QBs in recent history that started week 1 of their rookie year and were not hurt by that. Some of them even took their teams to the playoffs.
I think some of those that are insisting that Jones needs to sit on the bench and learn more are really just saying they want to see Eli get another chance to finish on a high note, which is fine. I am ok with Eli starting the season with a short leash, but I am certainly not going to sit here and say with conviction that Eli gives the Giants a better chance to win this year than Jones.
he has played somewhat "out of his mind" during preseason, but the environment changes when the regular season starts (e.g., more blitzing, disguising coverages). I know you that, but it's one good reason to let him learn on the sidelines.
Pretty clear, Eli will not be here after this season. You don't draft a guy at 6 to let him sit two years, and Eli will have other options.
Well, with Mara's adoration for Eli, I don't think anything is a given. And I'm not so sure Mara wants to see Eli in another uniform. I think that may crush the old man.
There is nothing like playing in a live game. You can't replicate it in practice or preseason. The only way to learn is to play. So I just don't buy this learning on the sideline gig. Particularly in today's game where it's more QB and offensive friendly, this view seems old and stale.
worst thing the Giants could do is believe Daniel Jones could start now, but play Eli.
But if they don't think Jones can play now, starting Eli makes more sense.
The sooner Daniel plays, the better it is for the Giants as a franchise. They need to not worry about Eli's legacy. Eli's legacy is over. It's a two-time Super Bowl MVP who saw the second half of his career sabotaged by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross.
Agree with all this. But there still can be greyness that they "think" Jones can play now but not 100% sure, so they use that as there backdrop to wait. And then maybe use a struggling Eli or struggling offense to force the change.
Of course it is grey. Manning is the better QB in terms of decision-making right now simply because of his experience. He has seen it all.
Jones hasn't seen what starting NFL defenses are going to do to confuse him. They haven't game-planned for him yet. He is going to make stupid, stupid mistakes.
But again, the clock is ticking.
RE: I have seen nothing from Daniel Jones thus far Â
that suggests that he is not ready to start week 1. Sure, sitting Mahomes a year did not hurt him. I can give you many more QBs in recent history that started week 1 of their rookie year and were not hurt by that. Some of them even took their teams to the playoffs.
I think some of those that are insisting that Jones needs to sit on the bench and learn more are really just saying they want to see Eli get another chance to finish on a high note, which is fine. I am ok with Eli starting the season with a short leash, but I am certainly not going to sit here and say with conviction that Eli gives the Giants a better chance to win this year than Jones.
Sitting mahomes probably didn't hurt him, but it wasn't in the best interest of the team?
Is it possible that he beats the patriots in that playoff game if he had another year of experience under his belt?
at that stage yet. We may debate the nuances but another thing has to still happen...and that's either Eli struggles or time on a winning season has run out.
I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
Seems like fans run the team, under this assumption, than the gm. Ala Eli fiasco with geno smith. Pathetic to believe so if were even remotely true.
It's not about it being a goodbye season for Eli - like Herm Edwards said "You play to win the game". IMO, and others - Eli gives them the best chance to win.
RE: Barkley - If Eli gives them the best chance to win, why wouldn't you use the QB who gives you the better chance of winning during that shelf life?
bw - Keep in mind, it's not just about what people want for Eli. Put yourself in his shoes. He knows Jones is the future - do you sign basicaly a year to year extension while you're keeping the seat warm for Jones, knowing that any string of mistakes could send you to the bench - or do you look around the league and ask - what is the best place for me to play given where I'm at in this point in my career. If his agent has any semblence of competence - I'm sure that search began a year if not two years ago.
Mara remembers the mobs/fans marching outside the castle with torches lit a few years just two seasons ago - won't take much for that to resurface. And, re: Maras overiding Shurmur (who is Gettleman's guys) leaks are a powerful tool during organizational power struggles
I'm not qualified to make the call so, I'm okay whichever direction they go in. But, if the decision is to go w/Jones - I'd try to get Eli and another team to agree to a trade. Get something for him, if possible - and remove the distraction
With Eli and Giants fans — it’s like the boyfriend or girlfriend who breaks up with their significant other but gets jealous when their ex moves on.
Half the people here think Eli sucks but don’t want him to play anywhere else. It’s odd.
Eli is in the last year of his contract and his successor is nipping at his heels. He’s playing in the toughest media market for a very critical fan base. The rest of the roster is in transition. Objectively, this is a terrible situation for someone in Eli’s shoes.
If he wants to continue his playing career beyond this season, it’s going to be with another team. The Colts would be a great fit for a lot of reasons and it would be a win for all parties involved if they work out a deal.
Eli is in the last year of his contract and his successor is nipping at his heels. He’s playing in the toughest media market for a very critical fan base. The rest of the roster is in transition. Objectively, this is a terrible situation for someone in Eli’s shoes.
what?? The Giants have arguably put a better line in front of him, given him a fabulous running back, a rising TE and jettisoned his headache (albeit very talented) WR.
Objectively...his situation is better now except time is up with his contract.
like others have pointed out many times on this site Â
the problem with measuring how much an aging athlete has in the tank, is that it is not predictable like a car's gas tank. you know when your car will run out of gas. with an aging athlete skills (i.e., QB's arm) - the tank could be depleted to the point of impacting performance, at any point in the season - and it is not unlikely that it will happen later in the year, the most important part of the season.
Whether he starts or not, the Jones era has already begun
Eli is in the last year of his contract and his successor is nipping at his heels. He’s playing in the toughest media market for a very critical fan base. The rest of the roster is in transition. Objectively, this is a terrible situation for someone in Eli’s shoes.
what?? The Giants have arguably put a better line in front of him, given him a fabulous running back, a rising TE and jettisoned his headache (albeit very talented) WR.
Objectively...his situation is better now except time is up with his contract.
The entire roster is in transition. A better situation doesn’t mean anything if the standard is dogshit to somewhere better than dogshit.
The OL is a question mark. The receiving options are a question mark. The only sure thing on offense is Barkley. The entire defense is a question mark.
The entire situation screams placeholder QB to any reasonable person. If Eli thinks he can play several more years in the league, this is one of the worst spots for him.
And that is my biggest fear this year we go 5-5 and we don't Â
I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
Seems like fans run the team, under this assumption, than the gm. Ala Eli fiasco with geno smith. Pathetic to believe so if were even remotely true.
Personally I don't need a SB to be happy with the season. If this team plays competitive football and makes the playoffs, even being 1 and done, I'll be a satisfied fan.
Side note, it's nice to be able to have an adult conversation on this topic without the usual shit flingers mucking it up.
I didn't like that move, personally. Thought they rushed him in. And, he struggled mightily. Ironically, I think his first good game was against Rivers in San Diego - in a losing effort.
The Eli situation was completely different, a highly complex Â
offense before the rule changes playing top 10 defense after top 10 defense. The way the NFL is set up today I'm starting to think Daniel Jones is a better fit and there is an argument to be made there won't be much drop off in play.
The entire roster is in transition. A better situation doesn’t mean anything if the standard is dogshit to somewhere better than dogshit.
The OL is a question mark. The receiving options are a question mark. The only sure thing on offense is Barkley. The entire defense is a question mark.
The entire situation screams placeholder QB to any reasonable person. If Eli thinks he can play several more years in the league, this is one of the worst spots for him.
The placeholder QB is a different point. Whether it was right or wrong is moot...that ship sailed when they gave Eli $5M for his roster bonus in March.
And I don't disagree there are questions but no dispute the dogshit has gotten better pieces.
I'm not disagreeing with your logic. But Warner gave the Giants a better shot to win in 2004 than Eli. The Giants tanked after that.
But wouldn't you say that was the right move?
Wouldn't we have to the results of the alternative plan(s) to say which was the better move? Certainly moving to Manning produced results we are happy with, but that only presents that specific road.
If Eli doesn't start in 2004 and go through those growing pains, he more than likely goes through those growing pains in 2005 and we don't make the playoffs that year.
and watching. You can learn but you can also learn better by playing. Unless you're so worried about our OL ruining Jones's confidence. But then what the hell have we been doing the last 2 seasons. This isn't an Alex Smith situation where the team is really good and Smith might be better than a rookie Mahomes.
If Eli doesn't start in 2004 and go through those growing pains, he more than likely goes through those growing pains in 2005 and we don't make the playoffs that year.
Eric my point is simply that how many times in life does something happen where we say to ourselves "I didn't see that coming?"
I don't see the point in deciding what the better road was when we don't know the results of the other alternatives
If Eli doesn't start in 2004 and go through those growing pains, he more than likely goes through those growing pains in 2005 and we don't make the playoffs that year.
Eric my point is simply that how many times in life does something happen where we say to ourselves "I didn't see that coming?"
I don't see the point in deciding what the better road was when we don't know the results of the other alternatives
That's a huge issue too. Eli has made noise that he's not retiring any time soon.
So the sooner he moves on, the better for him too.
There is no future for him in New York unless something weird happens with Jones or Jones is a complete bust.
Exactly.
I think people are assuming Eli has internally committed to playing this last year out and riding off into the sunset. I don’t think that’s the case.
He’s talked about how good his body feels and how strong his arm feels. On the injury front he’s essentially made it out unscathed over a 16 year career. He has less injury mileage than Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers.
He may think he can play another 5 years. That’s definitely not going to happen here.
And realize that Pay Shurmur thinks this is a playoff team as of today. And in order to make the playoffs... he feels Eli is the best route.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
Of course. And Shurmur's immediate motivations (job security) are different than Gettleman's.
But that doesn't make it right.
Doesn’t make it wrong either. The point is get to the dance. And Shurmur is going to do what he thinks is best to get them there.
To me there is no difference is Jones starts 4, 6, or even 8 games. Every season is a new animal. It has been proven you can sit the whole year or play 1 game and be fine.
And realize that Pay Shurmur thinks this is a playoff team as of today. And in order to make the playoffs... he feels Eli is the best route.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
dep, do you know anything going on with the Rangers at all? I don't believe you're a hockey fan since I don't remember you in any Rangers related threads. The Rangers were underwhelming but still in the playoff hunt during the 2017-18 season, they were coming off a season where they went to the second round, were very close to making it to the conference final, and were in the playoffs 12 of the last 13 seasons, including a trip to the Final and eastern conference final in the last few years. The GM blew it all up even though they clearly could have made the playoffs because he wanted to build a contender for years to come. Now, no Alain Vigneault wasn't responsible for it. However, either Gettleman or Mara should be more concerned about the future of the team over possibly being a one and done in the playoffs by getting lucky this year as a 9-7 wildcard team.
is if you think you have a shot at winning the SB with him.
Although I'm in favor of playing Jones sooner rather than later (not week 1) I don't need a SB win to be happy with the season. As stated above, just give me competitive well executed football week in week out and I'll be happy.
I don't think that will happen with this roster no matter who the QB is but I'm not the GM and couldn't get that job if I wanted to be.
And realize that Pay Shurmur thinks this is a playoff team as of today. And in order to make the playoffs... he feels Eli is the best route.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
Of course. And Shurmur's immediate motivations (job security) are different than Gettleman's.
But that doesn't make it right.
Doesn’t make it wrong either. The point is get to the dance. And Shurmur is going to do what he thinks is best to get them there.
To me there is no difference is Jones starts 4, 6, or even 8 games. Every season is a new animal. It has been proven you can sit the whole year or play 1 game and be fine.
It's been shown that it can happen, but history shows it's not remotely likely.
It's proven that people win the lottery but I wouldn't invest my retirement fund in lottery tickets.
And there are examples of it happening when starting day 1. But no two situations are the same. If this team stinks like many are proclaiming, why play him? Won’t bad habits formed? This isn’t Prescott coming in with an all world offense to run either.
Again.... if the goal is to make the playoffs... the better QB plays. Period.
And I said this before. If you’re going young, then cut Bethea. Trade jackrabbit and ogletree as well. Right?
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
That answer can not be determined. How much better did Rosen gst? And he’s still not the starter in Miami.
And there are examples of it happening when starting day 1. But no two situations are the same. If this team stinks like many are proclaiming, why play him? Won’t bad habits formed? This isn’t Prescott coming in with an all world offense to run either.
Again.... if the goal is to make the playoffs... the better QB plays. Period.
And I said this before. If you’re going young, then cut Bethea. Trade jackrabbit and ogletree as well. Right?
If it's likely to happen, then the opinion should be to start him day one.
If you think he is worthy of the 6th pick and he will be the guy he is going to be from the get go, let's get it going.
I don't think you actually believe that though, you are just looking for reasons to keep playing Eli.
If you think Eli still has it and we can win with him fine Â
I have been as big of Jones fan as anyone on this site.
I want the best player to play, and right now it’s Eli. If he gives us the best chance to make the playoffs then I want him to be the QB. It’s really simple.
But maybe I think you want to start Jones “cause you no longer support Eli.” Fun to make stupid claims, right?
The Giants have botched this whole situation from jump Â
If they wanted to draft Jones they never should have brought Eli back. And don't tell me some crap like "oh they couldn't know Jones would be there at 6". EVERYONE knew Jones would be there at 6. Because best case scenario is where they are now, which is not a great situation. Where everyone (except dep) knows Jones should be starting but can't because Eli is still here.
And you think Eli wants this? To know if he starts 0-3 (insert whatever bad record you want here) that he may not start the rest of the season? That doesn't sound fun to me. And he's already said he wants to keep playing. You think he wants to be a backup this year when things go south? And they will go south, this is not a playoff team. How does that help him for his next contract?
The best thing they could do for Eli is to trade him. Forget draft pick compensation in return, it's the best they could do by both Eli and Jones.
I have been as big of Jones fan as anyone on this site.
I want the best player to play, and right now it’s Eli. If he gives us the best chance to make the playoffs then I want him to be the QB. It’s really simple.
But maybe I think you want to start Jones “cause you no longer support Eli.” Fun to make stupid claims, right?
You realize you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, right? If your opinion is correct, you're benefitting the Giants this year in a year where we most likely won't make the playoffs and almost definitely won't win a Super Bowl, at the expense of a year in the future because Jones, unless he has some Patrick Mahomes in him will lose a year of development. And in that year of development, we might have a much better and more experienced team than this year. There's just no substitute for playing, no matter how much film he watches.
I have been as big of Jones fan as anyone on this site.
I want the best player to play, and right now it’s Eli. If he gives us the best chance to make the playoffs then I want him to be the QB. It’s really simple.
But maybe I think you want to start Jones “cause you no longer support Eli.” Fun to make stupid claims, right?
You realize you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, right? If your opinion is correct, you're benefitting the Giants this year in a year where we most likely won't make the playoffs and almost definitely won't win a Super Bowl, at the expense of a year in the future because Jones, unless he has some Patrick Mahomes in him will lose a year of development. And in that year of development, we might have a much better and more experienced team than this year. There's just no substitute for playing, no matter how much film he watches.
I should say in that year that we lose we might have a better team than this year. In fact, we most likely will.
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
Again, we debated this earlier this week. Some here feel there is no difference if he had 10 games or not.
I don’t tend to agree the experience is valuable but that’s the question. Add in fan optimism for a 2019 season and/or inability to let go of Eli and next you know we have a 500 post thread arguing nonsensical points of view.
I don’t tend to agree. The experience is valuable. Â
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
And 1-7 last year. The team has a lot of young players and new free agents/trade acquisitions. I expect another slow start at which point Jones will start because the offense is stuck in the mud
How come I knew there would be this thread today Â
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
.
While I am not necessarily disagreeing with you,
when you hear Mara talks like he does recently...
that doesn't help the scenario you would like to create.
With that said, at some point this year, I would presume Jones will be starting, since I am expecting another losing season.
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
Do you really think there are legitimate odds that Jones really busts, though? In a way where we'd know after ~10 starts as a rookie that we need to seek an alternative?
I can see struggles - but I can't imagine him being that bad that we'd be able to draw that conclusion so soon. I'd be stunned if Jones played significant snaps this year and was literally so bad that we reverse course and decide he's not a viable option going forward.
Anything can happen, but that would really shock me.
I understand the opportunity cost argument here; but I actually think those arguments were more sound regarding Barkley since the shelf-life of a running back can be markedly shorter than that of a QB.
We have time with Jones.
I look at it this way...
There's only one scenario in my mind where Jones doesn't see action this year, and it's the unlikely scenario where the Giants eclipse the midway point of the year and are legitimately in the mix and are winning football games and Eli has a lot to do with it.
Again - this is unlikely and I would be surprised.
But, if the Giants are 5-3 after 8 games and Eli is playing some really good ball, I don't see the major harm in continuing to allow him to play. The object is to win, isn't it?
Now, what I expect to happen.... is an uneven start to the year. I think the Giants will be up and down most of the season.
The spot where I could see the QB change happening is after Week 6 - when we play the Patriots on the road on TNF. That's going to be an extremely, extremely tough game to win coming off the Vikings and just 4 days to prepare.
So, if through 6 games, we're 2-4 or something like that... you've got 10 days to get Daniel ready to go against Arizona at home on October 20 - which I think would be a good spot for him to take the reins.
As long as they don't stick with Eli through poor play/performance longer than they need to, I don't think there's going to be much of a difference in Jones' career trajectory whether he sees action in 10 games this year, or 6.
The way NYG handled Eli's rookie year was totally fine, and didn't have any negative impact on Eli. Eli was firmly entrenched as the starter going into 2005 - and I believe that will be the case with Jones going into 2020. Eli did quite alright in his first season despite not getting a full slate in 2004.
We will have time here. I think NYG could very feasibly produce a championship caliber roster before Jones' rookie deal is up.
If Gettleman handles this right, we should be expecting playoffs as soon as next year.
RE: RE: So tell me again, if Jones starts 6-8 games Â
But I'm not as convinced as you are that they will handle it in the sensible manner they did in 04
My nightmare scenario is hearing about how good of a week of practice they had as they flounder under 500 but keep playing Eli as no one has run away with the NFCE.
I'm willing to let it play out though, not like I have another option
I just think the cries for Jones will be too loud to ignore if NYG aren't performing and winning games with Eli.
It was one thing when the backups were Geno Smith, Davis Webb, or Kyle Lauletta - but now, we invested a 6th overall pick in a QB. That's a guy that is expected to not only play, but be the future of the franchise.
The hook might not be as quick as I'd like to see in the event we're struggling... but I do think it'll be way too difficult for Shurmur to keep Jones on the sidelines if the Giants get off to a bad start.
If they keep sending Eli out there far longer than they should, I will be right there with you guys and will be aggravated.
Everyone on this board will be calling for Jones and the entire stadium will be chanting for Jones the very first time bad Eli shows up for an entire game. I'm sad. It will happen as sure as the sun will shine again tomorrow. It will be ugly. Jones has played too well, it is inevitable.
The truth is, the Giants are not talented enough to win this year Â
In fact, it's unlikely they'll finish above .500 with Manning and probably with Jones. If this is the case, it makes little sense to play Manning. Jones' arm and mobility are superior to Manning. Manning has an edge knowledge-wise. But since the Giants aren't going anywhere this year, not much point in playing Manning. Play Jones and let him develop. Things would be different if Jones were Lauletta who has physical limitations.
In fact, it's unlikely they'll finish above .500 with Manning and probably with Jones. If this is the case, it makes little sense to play Manning. Jones' arm and mobility are superior to Manning. Manning has an edge knowledge-wise. But since the Giants aren't going anywhere this year, not much point in playing Manning. Play Jones and let him develop. Things would be different if Jones were Lauletta who has physical limitations.
I don't think Jones necessarily has a superior arm to Manning.
Mobility, yes.
But - don't discount the comfort level and the ability to read the field, go through progressions, diagnose blitzes, etc.
Eli is going to be far more prepared to handle stuff like that in the early going.
As long as the Giants handle this in a way where Jones gets to play should Eli and the offense/team struggle in the early going, it's not a bad move to let Eli take the reins out of the gates.
The goal is to win games, and the Giants are going to give the ball to the guy they believe gives them the best chance.
Love what I have seen from Jones, but it'll be a lot harder in Dallas once he's got guys twisting and stunting inside and blitzes are coming from all different angles. Eli will handle these reads better and will pick them up faster.
From an ability standpoint, I tend to agree there's probably not THAT much Eli does at this point that Daniel cannot. But, don't discount the cerebral aspect of the game and the fact that Eli has seen it all after a decade and a half.
In what will probably be a close game - the more we can minimize mistakes, the better off we probably are.
RE: The truth is, the Giants are not talented enough to win this year Â
In fact, it's unlikely they'll finish above .500 with Manning and probably with Jones. If this is the case, it makes little sense to play Manning. Jones' arm and mobility are superior to Manning. Manning has an edge knowledge-wise. But since the Giants aren't going anywhere this year, not much point in playing Manning. Play Jones and let him develop. Things would be different if Jones were Lauletta who has physical limitations.
DG and the Giants org have kept mentioning how they go 6-2 or even 7-1 2nd half last year if the D could make just one stop late in games. This team despite the collective youths learning curve on Defense should be markedly better than that team.
10-6 or even better with some health is not out of the question.
Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
Do you really think there are legitimate odds that Jones really busts, though? In a way where we'd know after ~10 starts as a rookie that we need to seek an alternative?
I can see struggles - but I can't imagine him being that bad that we'd be able to draw that conclusion so soon. I'd be stunned if Jones played significant snaps this year and was literally so bad that we reverse course and decide he's not a viable option going forward.
Anything can happen, but that would really shock me.
I understand the opportunity cost argument here; but I actually think those arguments were more sound regarding Barkley since the shelf-life of a running back can be markedly shorter than that of a QB.
We have time with Jones.
I look at it this way...
There's only one scenario in my mind where Jones doesn't see action this year, and it's the unlikely scenario where the Giants eclipse the midway point of the year and are legitimately in the mix and are winning football games and Eli has a lot to do with it.
Again - this is unlikely and I would be surprised.
But, if the Giants are 5-3 after 8 games and Eli is playing some really good ball, I don't see the major harm in continuing to allow him to play. The object is to win, isn't it?
Now, what I expect to happen.... is an uneven start to the year. I think the Giants will be up and down most of the season.
The spot where I could see the QB change happening is after Week 6 - when we play the Patriots on the road on TNF. That's going to be an extremely, extremely tough game to win coming off the Vikings and just 4 days to prepare.
So, if through 6 games, we're 2-4 or something like that... you've got 10 days to get Daniel ready to go against Arizona at home on October 20 - which I think would be a good spot for him to take the reins.
As long as they don't stick with Eli through poor play/performance longer than they need to, I don't think there's going to be much of a difference in Jones' career trajectory whether he sees action in 10 games this year, or 6.
The way NYG handled Eli's rookie year was totally fine, and didn't have any negative impact on Eli. Eli was firmly entrenched as the starter going into 2005 - and I believe that will be the case with Jones going into 2020. Eli did quite alright in his first season despite not getting a full slate in 2004.
We will have time here. I think NYG could very feasibly produce a championship caliber roster before Jones' rookie deal is up.
If Gettleman handles this right, we should be expecting playoffs as soon as next year.
Seems like the vast majority of people would be surprised at 5-3 at the halfway point. So why not just start Jones from the start?
RE: First of all I agree that the bust scenario is far fetched Â
But I'm not as convinced as you are that they will handle it in the sensible manner they did in 04
My nightmare scenario is hearing about how good of a week of practice they had as they flounder under 500 but keep playing Eli as no one has run away with the NFCE.
I'm willing to let it play out though, not like I have another option
Wouldn't be surprised honestly. Kurt Warner doesn't have shit on Eli as far as accomplishments for this franchise. One was a stop gap signed for a season, one was a 15 year starter with 2 Super Bowl rings and 2 Super Bowl game winning drives under his belt. Can't compare the situations.
Because they probably feel Eli still presents the best opportunity to win early on. I don't really disagree with it, either.
Going into a very loud AT&T Stadium for Week 1 and dealing with a defense that is no longer holding anything back and facing starters for 4 quarters is a different animal - and one Eli is almost certainly better-equipped to handle right now. He's opened in Dallas like 5 different times in his career now. He knows what to expect.
I really believe Eli is going to perform better than people are expecting him to. It has been a while since he's had both a capable offensive line - and he's never had an elite RB like Saquon up until last year.
Just my take... but I think Eli is tired of hearing that he's finished. We're going to get everything he's got in the tank.
Playing Jones isn't solely about Jones -- it's also about assessing the components needed to surround Jones with and with what he works well.
Quarterback is an outsized position -- it's who you build around, what type of weapons you acquire, what types of safety blankets are needed, and what type of players you avoid.
If the Giants come out of this year with out 8 games of Jones or a playoff birth, it's a disaster.
CBS Sports just put out an article for Colts trade options Â
Like most high investments in QBs, I say the boom/bust rate is 50% on Jones. I think that's basically been the historical trend, right? I wouldn't begin to suggest my crystal ball is better than anyone else's.
I'm stunned you don't see a difference between playing 6 games or 10. That's another 24 quarters of live football. That's the most important piece to Jones's development - experience. The more he's sees in terms of D schemes, game speed, etc, the better.
The object is to win - yes. And I'm okay taking the risk to do that with Jones.
Playing Jones isn't solely about Jones -- it's also about assessing the components needed to surround Jones with and with what he works well.
Quarterback is an outsized position -- it's who you build around, what type of weapons you acquire, what types of safety blankets are needed, and what type of players you avoid.
If the Giants come out of this year with out 8 games of Jones or a playoff birth, it's a disaster.
I agree with the ultimate point you arrive at - if Jones doesn't play half the season or more, and we aren't a playoff team - that's probably worst-case scenario.
But - I also don't think there's a whole lot we need to figure out in terms of what we put around him. The RB is in place - we all believe Barkley has generational, all-world ability and will be a best friend for whoever we put out there.
We need to emphasize two areas next offseason to really get this offense to where it needs to be -
1. OL (Long-term answer @ RT, depth, perhaps Solder's eventual replacement(
2. Top flight WR
I think without Jones even playing, those things are evident.
A big time, two-way TE would be a luxury - I'd love to add that as well. But I expect us to do it by committee for now - with Engram being the big pass catching threat, and the other guys being relied on more in traditional roles that emphasize blocking.
We're close - I think we just need another year and some experience for Daniel and if Gettleman can swing another strong draft and FA period where we'll have money to spend, this should be a team that really pushes for a playoff spot in 2020.
Like most high investments in QBs, I say the boom/bust rate is 50% on Jones. I think that's basically been the historical trend, right? I wouldn't begin to suggest my crystal ball is better than anyone else's.
I'm stunned you don't see a difference between playing 6 games or 10. That's another 24 quarters of live football. That's the most important piece to Jones's development - experience. The more he's sees in terms of D schemes, game speed, etc, the better.
The object is to win - yes. And I'm okay taking the risk to do that with Jones.
There are a lot of options between boom and bust.
I’d cay the chances he is a bust ie doesn’t get to play out his rookie deal are minuscule
Like most high investments in QBs, I say the boom/bust rate is 50% on Jones. I think that's basically been the historical trend, right? I wouldn't begin to suggest my crystal ball is better than anyone else's.
I'm stunned you don't see a difference between playing 6 games or 10. That's another 24 quarters of live football. That's the most important piece to Jones's development - experience. The more he's sees in terms of D schemes, game speed, etc, the better.
The object is to win - yes. And I'm okay taking the risk to do that with Jones.
I really don't believe the ~4 game difference is going to swing him in one way or another. The furthest I'd go there is to say that more experience and PT are almost certainly not going to do any harm. So, sure - the more he gets, the better. But to me, him getting 8 games or 12 games isn't going to swing the pendulum much at all.
Mahomes only got 1 start as a rookie. It was fairly nondescript. He was league MVP and threw 50 TD passes in year 2. How much better than that was he going to be even if he had 4-5 more starts in 2017? It was a historic year for a 23 year old kid as it was. I don't think he could have possibly done more than he did.
I expect Jones to get significantly more action than Mahomes did.
Rodgers only attempted 16 garbage time passes as a rookie. Brees started 0 games as a rookie. Brady threw 3 passes as a rookie.
Two of the above guys are 40+ years old now. They're still going and the Pats and Saints are going to be two of the best teams in the NFL.
You have to be careful with the QB - there's no one-size-fits-all proposition for these guys. If Jones turns out to be the real deal, it's not going to matter. He'll be here for years. Just like Eli has been.
If he isn't, it won't be because of 3-4 starts he didn't get as a rookie.
I just don't see any way we'd be able to determine that Jones is a bust this year. He'd have to be horrendous... and after what we've seen of him so far, no matter how simplistic the looks he's seeing are - I'd really be surprised by that.
I could see him struggling and being "eh" - but to play so poorly that we're convinced he was a bad pick this year, that would just really stun me.
The only reason to go with Eli is if you believe Jones will greatly benefit as his understudy which of course is a 20 million dollar investment. Granted, I genuinely believe this team will be competitive this year and we may be in for a very interesting season with Eli. My problem is I’d rather go with Jones now since I think the FA haul next year is going to have this team at the top of the NFC east and I want jones to be ready.
You can just as easily make the argument the other way. Â
Cam Newton, a one year starter in College in an extremely simple system threw for over 400 yards in his first two NFL starts and won rookie of the year.
Dak Prescott won 13 games as a rookie 4th round pick. Wentz started all 16 games as a rookie and started 3-0 and would have won MVP year two if he didn't shred his knee. Andrew Luck took a 2 win team without Peyton Manning to the playoffs as a rookie. Deshaun Watson entered week 1 after halftime of his rookie year and was playing out of his mind until he got hurt. Baker Mayfield came in last year at half time of week three and broke Payton Manning's rookie TD pass record.
Brees, Brady and Rodgers are all outdated examples. Again, I am fine with Eli getting one more shot, but given what we have seen of Jones so far in the NFL, and recent history of what rookie QBs can do in this league, it is very possible that he actually gives the Giants a better chance of winning this year than Eli.
RE: I can't figure out what positive there is from sitting Â
and watching. You can learn but you can also learn better by playing. Unless you're so worried about our OL ruining Jones's confidence. But then what the hell have we been doing the last 2 seasons. This isn't an Alex Smith situation where the team is really good and Smith might be better than a rookie Mahomes.
The old school thought is it's a luxury to sit a QB for a season or two until bringing him in. What Aaron Rodgers got to experience as a 3 year backup IMO has helped make him a star QB in this league. If Garoppolo becomes a star QB in this league, then a lot of that will be attributed to his time backing up Brady for 3 1/2 seasons, and hell maybe even 13 games on IR last year.
You can't replace game experience, but you can increase the floor of a QB's performance once he starts and hopefully reduce the learning curve dramatically. You're also reducing the possibility of the QB struggling as much which can affect their confidence long term.
I think it helps more than hurts in nearly every circumstance. In an extreme case, you get a guy like Alex Smith who absolutely needed to sit and eventually would become a good QB.
If you're going to start a QB early he has to be either a top top prospect like Luck/Peyton Manning, have an offense built around him like RG3, or be put on a pitch count like Russell Wilson.
Even a late season switch like Warner to Eli in 2004 isn't a bad idea because by then the rookie/backup can come in and play loose and still take advantage of the few extra months sitting and game planning real games.
I know this isn't going to happen. And I know the Rafflee is going to take a ton of shit for posting this.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Eric I completely agree. If the Colts wanted Manning, Eli accepted the trade, and the Giants pulled that trigger for a few draft picks?
Everyone wins.
Outside of Eli having a great year and the Giants winning the Super Bowl? The Eli-to-the-Colts scenario is the least uncomfortable Eli exit strategy for all.
We can all debate about how many 2019 games would Â
be most beneficial but its clearly at least a couple of starts. Ideally you would want some successes (wins) peppered in there for confidence as well but that is subject to a variety of factors.
Enough of time where Jones shows command on the field, handles some adversity and can build up some confidence in himself and the coaches.
Making 2020 a season to go make something happen...
Quote:
We're officially in the middle of a QB controversy.
Agree 100%. Jones is ahead of schedule, we've barely seen Eli in the preseason (improved though he is said to be), and nobody thinks this team has a chance of doing much this season. Everybody's itching to see Danny Dimes. If the Giants beat Dallas 38-35 and Eli throws 4 TDs and no picks, that will quiet things down. If Dallas beats the Giants 28-13, it's going to be ON.
RE: We can all debate about how many 2019 games would Â
be most beneficial but its clearly at least a couple of starts. Ideally you would want some successes (wins) peppered in there for confidence as well but that is subject to a variety of factors.
Enough of time where Jones shows command on the field, handles some adversity and can build up some confidence in himself and the coaches.
Making 2020 a season to go make something happen...
I agree with this - it's hard to pinpoint a number of games. It's not like we're privy to data that pinpoints the perfect spot because it doesn't exist and varies for each player. I think we all feel like Jones can and should play several games this year, and it will bode well for him going into 2020 to have that experience.
I don't think it necessarily makes a huge difference how many games it is - as long as it's more than a couple.
Like I've said a few times - there's only one way I am okay with Jones not getting a good deal of starts this year and it's if Eli is playing really well and has the team in a playoff position.
If not, Jones has to get starts this year.
I think we just need to let it play out since it's impossible to map out from here and there are so many external factors that will play a role.
RE: You can just as easily make the argument the other way. Â
Cam Newton, a one year starter in College in an extremely simple system threw for over 400 yards in his first two NFL starts and won rookie of the year.
Dak Prescott won 13 games as a rookie 4th round pick. Wentz started all 16 games as a rookie and started 3-0 and would have won MVP year two if he didn't shred his knee. Andrew Luck took a 2 win team without Peyton Manning to the playoffs as a rookie. Deshaun Watson entered week 1 after halftime of his rookie year and was playing out of his mind until he got hurt. Baker Mayfield came in last year at half time of week three and broke Payton Manning's rookie TD pass record.
Brees, Brady and Rodgers are all outdated examples. Again, I am fine with Eli getting one more shot, but given what we have seen of Jones so far in the NFL, and recent history of what rookie QBs can do in this league, it is very possible that he actually gives the Giants a better chance of winning this year than Eli.
The lost part on some of the comparables with QBs who sat is the number of years in the system.
Rodgers was in his 4th camp, Rivers was in his 3rd, Young was in his 8th.
Those guys didn't really hit the ground running. Now if the Giants plan to sit Jones 2-8 years, maybe some burn in year one isn't so important. But if they plan on continuing a re-build and give him the reigns next year, it's wise to get him on the field.
RE: You can just as easily make the argument the other way. Â
Cam Newton, a one year starter in College in an extremely simple system threw for over 400 yards in his first two NFL starts and won rookie of the year.
Dak Prescott won 13 games as a rookie 4th round pick. Wentz started all 16 games as a rookie and started 3-0 and would have won MVP year two if he didn't shred his knee. Andrew Luck took a 2 win team without Peyton Manning to the playoffs as a rookie. Deshaun Watson entered week 1 after halftime of his rookie year and was playing out of his mind until he got hurt. Baker Mayfield came in last year at half time of week three and broke Payton Manning's rookie TD pass record.
Brees, Brady and Rodgers are all outdated examples. Again, I am fine with Eli getting one more shot, but given what we have seen of Jones so far in the NFL, and recent history of what rookie QBs can do in this league, it is very possible that he actually gives the Giants a better chance of winning this year than Eli.
Is Mahomes an outdated example?
There's also Goff... he started 7 games as a rookie and lost all of them. He was bad. He completed under 55% of his passes. He threw just 5 TD's. 7 picks.
Do we know that him taking those lumps better prepared him for his sophomore year where he was significantly better? It's possible. It's also possible that he just wasn't ready and played before he really had a good feel for things.
It's hard to look at past examples and extrapolate anything significant from it because every QB is just a different animal. Some guys are really good right away... like Wilson or Watson...but QB's like Goff weren't.
So much of it depends on the team around the QB, his background, etc.
Dallas had the luxury of placing Prescott into a situation where he was primed to succeed. Great OL, top flight running game. The onus wasn't on him to carry the offense.
Mark Sanchez also was able to enter a really favorable situation for the Jets and have success in 2009 and 2010 because of how good their defense and run game was. If you only need your rookie QB to manage, it makes life a lot easier.
In fact, it's unlikely they'll finish above .500 with Manning and probably with Jones. If this is the case, it makes little sense to play Manning. Jones' arm and mobility are superior to Manning. Manning has an edge knowledge-wise. But since the Giants aren't going anywhere this year, not much point in playing Manning. Play Jones and let him develop. Things would be different if Jones were Lauletta who has physical limitations.
I don't think Jones necessarily has a superior arm to Manning.
Mobility, yes.
But - don't discount the comfort level and the ability to read the field, go through progressions, diagnose blitzes, etc.
Eli is going to be far more prepared to handle stuff like that in the early going.
As long as the Giants handle this in a way where Jones gets to play should Eli and the offense/team struggle in the early going, it's not a bad move to let Eli take the reins out of the gates.
The goal is to win games, and the Giants are going to give the ball to the guy they believe gives them the best chance.
Love what I have seen from Jones, but it'll be a lot harder in Dallas once he's got guys twisting and stunting inside and blitzes are coming from all different angles. Eli will handle these reads better and will pick them up faster.
From an ability standpoint, I tend to agree there's probably not THAT much Eli does at this point that Daniel cannot. But, don't discount the cerebral aspect of the game and the fact that Eli has seen it all after a decade and a half.
In what will probably be a close game - the more we can minimize mistakes, the better off we probably are.
I totally agree that Eli has the cerebral edge, and no doubt by a wide margin. But when playing against a team with superior talent, cerebral is not enough to win the game. Whereas playing against a sophisticated defense is a superb learning opportunity for a young quarterback. Regardless of who plays week 1, it will be a "must see" game.
RE: RE: You can just as easily make the argument the other way. Â
Do we know that him taking those lumps better prepared him for his sophomore year where he was significantly better? It's possible. It's also possible that he just wasn't ready and played before he really had a good feel for things.
It's hard to look at past examples and extrapolate anything significant from it because every QB is just a different animal. Some guys are really good right away... like Wilson or Watson...but QB's like Goff weren't.
I don't disagree with you. As my previous subject stated, I was just saying you could just as easily make the argument the other way. We have no idea if Jones will play well when the real bullets fly like the guys I mentioned or struggle like Goff or other guys have.
To your other point, yes I do believe that Goff's struggles as a rookie helped him tremendously heading into his second year.
I have no problem with them easing Jones into this and starting Eli, but I do think the leash should be short. If Jones looked like a deer in the headlights in preseason I would be all for holding out, but he has looked tremendous and he certainly looks like he is capable of starting and playing well, just as many other recent rookie QBs have.
I am just saying that there is a strong assumption here that the team's only chance of winning this season is with Eli, and I am not convinced that is the case. Maybe he would struggle like Goff, but maybe he will play just as well as some of those guys I mentioned. We won't know until we see it.
We are closer to agreement than disagreement, really.
I feel similarly in that I am fine with Eli starting - I just don't want the leash to be so long that we don't make a change until we're mathematically out of it. The only way I want Eli playing beyond the halfway point is if we're humming along and really winning games.
As long as they handle it the right way, it won't bother me. If we just keep sending Eli out there to lose game after game out of loyalty or sentimentality, I will certainly have an issue with that and will be the first guy to say I don't like the approach.
We are closer to agreement than disagreement, really.
I feel similarly in that I am fine with Eli starting - I just don't want the leash to be so long that we don't make a change until we're mathematically out of it. The only way I want Eli playing beyond the halfway point is if we're humming along and really winning games.
There has got be some concern in everybody's mind that the transition is done in train-wreck fashion. Hopefully they learned from prior mistakes.
Yes, that's fair - but I think in 2017, the uproar occurred for different reasons. Because it was Geno Smith taking his place, and breaking an iron man streak for a guy who had no future here. I think that just bugged a lot of people and it seemed like the Giants officially had no direction at all.
Now... for the first time ever, there's a top 10 draft pick sitting behind him who has been really impressive and opened a lot of eyes this preseason.
So, I think there will be a lot less resistance this time around if Eli isn't playing well. I certainly won't be stunned if the fan base is calling for Jones before the decision is even made. I do think Eli is primed to have a strong year... but if he doesn't, the transition is probably going to be more 'welcomed' (if there's even a good word for it) - and understood.
The first attempt at this seemed totally haphazard and directionless. I think it'll be quite a bit more logical this time. Or at least I hope so.
Excuse my earlier math. I meant 16 quarters of extra football.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
Excuse my earlier math. I meant 16 quarters of extra football.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
amen on the last point. The Eli excuse train is at end of the line. Im sure his apologists will invent another whipping boy or three to deflect blame (or play the same tired tune of pointing the finger at the legacy of Reese and Ross drafting (curiously omitting Coughlin who was a major stakeholder in talent evaluation and selection))
I respect and appreciate Manning's willingness to eat it the last 2 years as the Giants stumbled their way into finding a replacement.
Let's face it, he's been a crash test dummy as a whole line of people made mistakes since 2017: Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo, Gettleman, and Shurmur.
And he'll likely be called on to do it again before it's coat weather -- this time it will be his ego and not his body. I don't like watching it, and I am as critical as anyone of him.
He's got a rookie who so clearly belongs in the NFL, a team that's improving but not proven, and a coach and GM whose continued employment in the NFL is tied to the rookie not to him.
It's going to be a bummer hearing the boos, seeing the media turn, and Manning eventually holding the clipboard on his way out.
If the Giants don't start at least 2-2 it's time for Jones to play Â
If they can't win 2 games out of Buffalo, Tampa and Washington with 2 of them being home games it's time to start the Jones era. Whatever that will be. But it won't surprise me if the GM and HC will want to wait using Eli as a fall guy to try and save their jobs which knowing the Mara's are not in any jeopardy at all no matter what happens in 2019.
Got the feeling that Gettleman could only trade Eli with Mara's blessing.
It makes most sense when a starting QB goes down injured and is out for the season and the organisation is not confident in their backup.
As it stands, Indianapolis would be be delivering a big kick in the teeth to Brissett and if I were him, I would be furious if they brought in Manning. Not going to happen, especially when you consider the difference in the two players's salaries.
Excuse my earlier math. I meant 16 quarters of extra football.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
mirrored my thoughts on this exactly in another thread about when to play DJ. Daniel Jones should start when Daniel Jones is ready. Not a minute before he is ready, but also not a minute after either. He is the future, we have DJ for a limited time under a cost contained salary structure (basically four years) and he is our future. As soon as he is ready to handle it and we hold him back to play Eli, we are hurting the future of the franchise. It is the unfortunate truth of football these days, the rookie contract for a productive QB is so valuable that you want to get the ball moving in that direction so when year 2 runs around, DJ can help team while not learning all the ropes. People say look at the Chiefs--Mahomes came in and they almost won the Super Bowl, I get that. I also saw that the Eagles started Wentz year one and were on a tear before he got injured in year 2. So, it works both ways
With respect to trading Eli. I would obviously not want it to end like that--I love Eli, but if DJ is ready now and some team wants to compensate us for Eli (and Eli is willing to go along with it), we would have to be pretty stupid not to do it if it was good compensation. On the other hand, if DJ is not ready, then it is not even worth discussing.
Fatman you think after Mahomes threw for 50 tds literally last year Â
this sentiment would have died. I guess now that he has experience we are going to see 70 tds this year.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
Yep, and the "advantageous rookie QB contract" argument also does not apply this year - we're paying Eli still.
It will apply when we are no longer paying Eli.
Look, as soon as we kept Eli on the books @ 23M this year, he was going to be the starter. If the Giants didn't intend on playing Eli and trying to win games with him, they wouldn't be paying him.
As long as NYG don't continue to send Eli out there long after it becomes evident he's not the answer; what we're doing here isn't a big deal.
Either Eli wins games and the Giants are competitive this season, or Eli takes a seat and Daniel gets the bulk of the starts.
So many of the people here didn't even want Daniel Jones at all.... not 6th, not 17th... they didn't want him.
Now, it's a tremendous issue if he doesn't play as soon as humanly possible.
this sentiment would have died. I guess now that he has experience we are going to see 70 tds this year.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
When you step back and look at the entirety of a playing career, there's very little that points directly to experience having a huge part. While learning the difference in the speed from the college game to the pro game has to happen, it doesn't take years to master that.
If experience was such a crucial part of the game, you'd expect to see linear growth out of most players, yet the stats show otherwise. Statistically speaking, a starter in year 1-2 of a career has as much of a chance to regress in years 3-4 as they do to improve. And that continues throughout the career. WR's should hit their strides in years 4-6 if they gain the experience of route running and body positioning, but that isn't the case. Rookie RB's are as likely to have the same production in year 1 vs. years 3 or 5.
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
'didn't even want Daniel Jones at all...Now, it's a tremendous issue' Â
That's funny and ironic because it's true. Nice post.
Eli should start the season. Why? Because this team has a chance to flip the script on recent years and make the playoffs. It's a slim chance but it's there. The only way that happens is if we get off to a fast start. Eli gives this team the best chance to do that.
If and when that slim chance evaporates we'll all be ready to move on and give DJ the reins for what will hopefully be a long and successful career.
As far as the Indy scenario or any other Eli trade before this season plays out forget it. BBI can have as many 300+ post threads about it as it likes, it just isn't happening.
RE: RE: Fatman you think after Mahomes threw for 50 tds literally last year Â
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
RE: RE: RE: Fatman you think after Mahomes threw for 50 tds literally last year Â
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
if FMIC reads through this thread (which was actually a great conversation with you not around to fire bomb it), you will see that is not the case
I'm pretty confident a Jones led team for 16 games this year would win more games than a Manning team. I don't have any problems stating that. I'd guess Manning's ceiling is 7 wins and Jone's is 9.
All things equal if game experience doesn't expedite growth, and the only risk is "ruining" Jones, I don't think that applies to the Giants. They have an extraordinary RB, a veteran offensive line, a solid if not spectacular group of WRs, a speedy and versatile starting TE, and reliable blocking TE.
Gettleman has done a fine job fielding a supporting cast that doesn't mirror the typical situation a rookie QB walks into.
I'd say Jones fresher arm, better legs, and nice touch in the short to intermediate game is to his advantage.
Now imagine if the Giants would have acquired a much cheaper vet (another disproven boogie man from the offseason) to be the insurance if Jones hadn't have been ready.
(a month before preseason started) didn't even want Jones within a 100 mile radius of East Rutherford, now not only want him on the team, but want him to start NOW.
Guys, it's coming, relax. Whether it's later this season or 2020 Week 1, it's coming. Jones' career won't be damaged if he doesn't start until Week 1 2020. Relax.
...having an Iron Man QB is NOT par for the course.
Teams NEED 2 quality QB's.
Lauletta is completely unproven. So is Jones for that matter - yeah, looks LIGHTS OUT in preseason. It's preseason.
Like Phil Simms, Eli Manning is completely disrespected by his own fans, and like Phil Simms, he will be worshipped only when he is gone.
I've posted this before -- in addition to the on-the-field factors -- I also would like Manning spared the indignity and circus of being replaced mid season.
I wanted Manning to be spared the physical beating and ridicule of lining up behind a ridiculously bad line last year and getting beat like bag.
We have different definitions of "worship" maybe -- I'd rather respect and appreciate the guy on the way out, and not piss on his legacy.
I think Manning has accomplished plenty enough as a Giant, has been a fabulous representative of the franchise, and made a literal fortune.
Jay Glazer
@JayGlazer
Jay Gruden names Case Keenum starter, waiting for McCoy to heal, they’d like to redshirt Haskins for the year and not rush him
Haskins always needed a year to work on things away from live bullets. His feet are still a disgrace to the art of quarterbacking. He gets away with it because of his insane arm, but it definitely isn't sustainable in the NFL. Their offensive line is also a mess right now. I can't believe they are actually making the smart move here, but I give it till week 8 when they are 2-5 and Danny Boy wants to see his new toy.
Lets rephrase this to match the earlier discussion on this thread... Â
The idea that Giants will have their development stunted by not playing Jones early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced.
why would we wait to play him? If he is not ready, I get that. But if he DJ is ready, what is the upside to starting Eli at this point? It is not about getting rid of Eli, it is about embracing the future that the Giants have selected to go. Why delay it?
Why would anyone offer the Giants anything, they have zero leverage. Not sure Eli would be better than Brissett in their system anytime soon. I think Brissett has significant upside. I do think Manning is headed for a good year with the Giants. I don't see trade value though. None.
I'm not sold because I think Brissett is going to be good.
But a case can be made to go for an Eli type. The Colts have multitude of high round picks. Can you imagine if they called and offered a 2nd or 3rd for Eli?
Not saying he should start. I think Eli should be given the chance to win.
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
All of the QBs drafted have talent. They are the best in the entire world. Even if they could handle it in college, most of them, when they get to the pros, cannot handle the pressure. They just crumble. Jones is a fucking rock. Think about what would have happened should he have had a shitty preseason?
Under the microscope of every decision he makes in game being scrutinized, ever throw in practice, Jones has continued to exceed expectations. We got a good one, everyone who keeps saying put on the brakes. I'm saying get real excited. He can handle intense pressure and scrutiny, he throws with accuracy, touch and anticipation.
If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
RE: RE: it will be Eli who nixes it because he has a no trade clause. Â
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
Ultimately I think that's the most impressive thing about him, and is the foundation for the physical feats that have impressed us.
First game of preseason, after weeks of being referred to as among the (if not THE) worst top ten draft pick in decades or even all time, and he plays about as perfectly as a rookie QB can in his first appearance against an opponent, with not a shred of chalance.
Second game, after discussion about whether this was a fluke, does the same thing and shakes off two negative plays that could, under other circumstances, precipitate a downward spiral.
Third game, after yet even further discussion about whether this was a fluke and after being plastered, throws some absolutely ballsy F-you tosses.
It's still early yet but we've seen this play out before. I think the guy has that proverbial IT about him, and I might just be done doubting whether he'll rise to the occasion. I think he'd do so to the absolute limits of whatever his ability happens to be at any given time, and what's more, he may actually benefit from moments of misfortune.
RE: Everyone keeps mentioning Eli's no trade clause Â
If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
not doubting you but curious where you saw this
I know he said playing his entire career for the Giants is important to him
Because Indy likely suspects Brissett will be better in that offense and has upside. If I am Indy I would not trade for Eli Manning. If it were 2011, different ballgame.
RE: RE: RE: it will be Eli who nixes it because he has a no trade clause. Â
yeah, kind of makes this 300 post thread moot, doesn't it?
Not really. Most of the posts in here that were interesting were about whether there is a QB controversy and if Giants are better off playing DJ earlier.
the Indy thing was more of a side-bar...
RE: RE: Everyone keeps mentioning Eli's no trade clause Â
[/quote]
You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it. [/quote]
Good post. My prediction is Eli plays really well this year, they are in contention or make playoffs and Eli plays for a team like the Colts next year because he has proven he can still play but the Giants want to start a new chapter.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Only as far as the perception that Indy needs a starting QB. For all we know they're comfortable with Brissett.
The Giants taking the shocking PR hit in making this trade after loudly proclaiming Eli the starter all summer? It wouldn't be logical for them.
I really hope this is a joke but going by your earlier posts I'm not sure.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Giants are too invested (meaning they want him to finish a Giant) in Eli. Eli wants to finish a Giant. Colts are going to invest in a close to 40 qb when a strong qb class is ahead in draft. Nothing to see here
Quote:
I know this isn't going to happen. And I know the Rafflee is going to take a ton of shit for posting this.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Giants are too invested (meaning they want him to finish a Giant) in Eli. Eli wants to finish a Giant. Colts are going to invest in a close to 40 qb when a strong qb class is ahead in draft. Nothing to see here
Are=aren't
The Colts are a team on the rise. They have a great offensive line, talent at both WR and TE, and a very good defense. Eli would be in an ideal situation and would provide great insurance for Brissett not working out.
Jones would start obviously with Tanney as the backup and Lauletta the #3.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
There really isn’t any logic other than being a fan trying to make the connection. They like Brissett and, his salary is minuscule. What sense does it make for them to add on Eli’s contract? Especially when they just paid a bonus to a QB who just retired.
I’d love it to happen too. But, this is simply a pipe dream, perfect scenario for Giants fans due to how Jones has played in the pre-season.
Eli is a lame duck QB. The successor has showed promise in the preseason. The Giants would get cap relief trading him.
The Colts have a good roster in a soft division. Eli would fit well in an offense with a good OL, nice receiving options, and solid running game. He’d be playing in a dome/good weather most of the season. There would be no obvious successor on the roster. Not many QBs in the AFC would have the playoff chops he has. None would have the success he has vs the Pats.
veteran or not, Eli would have to learn an entirely new system overnight, and it would send a message of incredible lack of confidence in Brisset who they seem to like.
And are the Giants willing to drop that kind of bomb to get, what, a mid-round pick or two?
I like the idea of Jones not getting thrown into the starting lineup right away. So far everything has gone the way the Giants would have scripted it. He has outplayed Murray and Haskins.
He still has more tests to pass - like playing under fierce pressure - and I'm glad he isn't getting thrown to the wolves, or the Cowboys, in two weeks. The 'Boys defense is looking pretty tough right now and if Jones was pummeled by them and turned the ball over it could set back his confidence level.
veteran or not, Eli would have to learn an entirely new system overnight, and it would send a message of incredible lack of confidence in Brisset who they seem to like.
And are the Giants willing to drop that kind of bomb to get, what, a mid-round pick or two?
Brissett started for the Colts 7 days after being acquired. He was entering year two. Eli would have no problem picking up the offense IF their intention was for him to start week one. I would love to get Parris Campbell in return.
Colts probably don't want him.
Yeah, I don't think this one is happening. And for people saying it makes sense - if you were Eli would you want to go to play in the town your brother owned for 15 years and is a legend? I think Indy is near the bottom of his list(if he has one).
I like the idea of Jones not getting thrown into the starting lineup right away. So far everything has gone the way the Giants would have scripted it. He has outplayed Murray and Haskins.
He still has more tests to pass - like playing under fierce pressure - and I'm glad he isn't getting thrown to the wolves, or the Cowboys, in two weeks. The 'Boys defense is looking pretty tough right now and if Jones was pummeled by them and turned the ball over it could set back his confidence level.
Eli looked good vs the Colts last year and played well in the last playoff game he played.
Brissett is a JAG. This is a lost season for a cost controlled, talented roster if Brissett is the guy for 16 games. Eli gives them a chance to not only make the playoffs but make noise in the playoffs.
This fan base and Joe Public have an odd take on Eli. If Ryan Fitzpatrick can get starting jobs Eli can.
Eli is a lame duck QB. The successor has showed promise in the preseason. The Giants would get cap relief trading him.
The Colts have a good roster in a soft division. Eli would fit well in an offense with a good OL, nice receiving options, and solid running game. He’d be playing in a dome/good weather most of the season. There would be no obvious successor on the roster. Not many QBs in the AFC would have the playoff chops he has. None would have the success he has vs the Pats.
This is just so dumb. You’re literally looking at it from just one side, the Giant fan centric side. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though.
It makes zero sense, from the Colts standpoint, for them to trade anything of value for an aging QB, making a lot of money, when they have a pretty good back up in Brissett (who they wouldn’t trade) and the fall back option of tanking and drafting from a crop of talented college QB’s.
Trading Eli would be great. None of the ideas here make any sense for the other side though.
That roster isn't an Eli Manning away from winning it all. They might not be an Eli Manning away from going deep into the playoffs, even Luck wasn't going to guarantee them that.
Right. There literally has be the perfect fucking scenario.
Quote:
as having played in and lost one playoff game in the last seven seasons. You can really stop right there.
I like the idea of Jones not getting thrown into the starting lineup right away. So far everything has gone the way the Giants would have scripted it. He has outplayed Murray and Haskins.
He still has more tests to pass - like playing under fierce pressure - and I'm glad he isn't getting thrown to the wolves, or the Cowboys, in two weeks. The 'Boys defense is looking pretty tough right now and if Jones was pummeled by them and turned the ball over it could set back his confidence level.
Eli looked good vs the Colts last year and played well in the last playoff game he played.
Brissett is a JAG. This is a lost season for a cost controlled, talented roster if Brissett is the guy for 16 games. Eli gives them a chance to not only make the playoffs but make noise in the playoffs.
This fan base and Joe Public have an odd take on Eli. If Ryan Fitzpatrick can get starting jobs Eli can.
Could not agree more. Guys like Foles get big money. Eli would have a contact in a heartbeat.
So I think Indy will still be in the hunt. With that OL, running game, defensive talent, etc, this team will be at least 9-7.
And while the Eli idea is based on some logic, Brissett is a much better athlete and in very good hands with Reich.
Quote:
And I’m one of the biggest Eli supporters on this site.
Eli is a lame duck QB. The successor has showed promise in the preseason. The Giants would get cap relief trading him.
The Colts have a good roster in a soft division. Eli would fit well in an offense with a good OL, nice receiving options, and solid running game. He’d be playing in a dome/good weather most of the season. There would be no obvious successor on the roster. Not many QBs in the AFC would have the playoff chops he has. None would have the success he has vs the Pats.
This is just so dumb. You’re literally looking at it from just one side, the Giant fan centric side. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though.
It makes zero sense, from the Colts standpoint, for them to trade anything of value for an aging QB, making a lot of money, when they have a pretty good back up in Brissett (who they wouldn’t trade) and the fall back option of tanking and drafting from a crop of talented college QB’s.
Trading Eli would be great. None of the ideas here make any sense for the other side though.
A “pretty good backup” doesn’t mean jackshit when now he’s the de facto starter for a team with aspirations of a deep playoff run.
And for your fallback option of tanking for a QB — I don’t know if the colts organization would say they got the ROI they expected the last time they tried that.
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I know this isn't going to happen. And I know the Rafflee is going to take a ton of shit for posting this.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Only as far as the perception that Indy needs a starting QB. For all we know they're comfortable with Brissett.
The Giants taking the shocking PR hit in making this trade after loudly proclaiming Eli the starter all summer? It wouldn't be logical for them.
Shocking PR hit? Please give me a break, most in the media will think is the smart move...Only half of BBI would have a heart attack
I've seen lots of occasions when other teams quarterbacks evaded a blitzing Collins or another player from the back seven just by sidestepping them. Eli used to be able to do this, as in the helmet catch. Now he can't.
That's why his play when the team was out of contention last season and his play in preseason mean very little.
But why debate it. In two weeks Eli will face the Cowboys in a hostile environment. If Eli stays on his feet and doesn't turn the ball over then I'll be the first to apologize for a wrong opinion.
I have no words for this, and I know your not joking.
If you step back and look at this from a distance, it makes perfect sense for both teams unless Brissett is that good. NFL Network doesn't think so.
However, next year he is a FA if the Giants don't somehow retain him. Next year could be interesting. Eli could again mentor a young QB like a Tua for example. Would the Giants resign him as trade bait? Doubt it.
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While the hype is on.
I have no words for this, and I know your not joking.
RAflee - just another example of some here who believe by stating the absurd they are making their pt. Some people are incapable of changing their mind once an opinion has been formulated, and as we read yesterday in the threads where some media are spinning Jones’ early success in a less than flattering manner; are so set in their opinion it makes little sense to engage them.
Since 1925? Was that the year you became a schmuck?
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
In their view, they will see if Brissett can improve from his 2017 performance with a better roster surrounding him this year. If not, they will try to use the draft capital they have to trade up next year.
Manning isn't winning any more games than Brisset this year. And if they are going to suck, better do it on the cheap than trade and asset and pay more for Manning.
Brissett does have some game. You might be surprised...
That roster isn't an Eli Manning away from winning it all. They might not be an Eli Manning away from going deep into the playoffs, even Luck wasn't going to guarantee them that.
Good post. This.
I agree with this. Right now, they would prefer Brissett to Eli. In the meantime, If Eli wants to play backup, he can do that here ;)
some brissett highlights - ( New Window )
For those of you who are too young (or too old - ha) to remember Simms-Hostetler, this Manning-Jones thing is going to get ugly. And nothing will convince me otherwise.
Whatever you think about Giants fans, they get downright NASTY when they pick side in a QB controversy. And yes, we're officially there now.
We're officially in the middle of a QB controversy.
Have you seen the guy play? He’s a big dude accurate passer and has a hell of a strong arm. BB praised him for his intelligence when he was a patriot. I see him as a slightly below average starter but he does have room to grow. That colt team is a good one. Sneaky talent
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We're officially in the middle of a QB controversy.
Not that Shurmur hasn't had his questionable communication moments, but until he opens the door more with a struggling Eli (if it happens) the only QB controversy seems to be with fans...
A trade to the Colts is a wonderful way for the GIants to complete the transition to Jones and end their QB controversy, but it makes no sense from the Colts side, unless they just want to help the Giants out by taking on their own QB controversy.
You didn't through this before, did you?
Did Simms falter? Did Hostetler falter?
Do you actually recognize that at least half the fans want Jones starting now?
I would argue that starting Jones right now makes a certain degree of sense.
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Did Simms falter? Did Hostetler falter?
Do you actually recognize that at least half the fans want Jones starting now?
I would argue that starting Jones right now makes a certain degree of sense.
Hostetler was coming off a Superbowl win and a head coaching change. He was also a veteran ala Steve Young a few years later. That's a better comparison: Montana to Young.
We're not talking apples to apples, here. There is a precedent for what is happening here. Brees to Rivers: No controversy. Favre to Rodgers: No controversy. Alex Smith to Mahomes: No controversy.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
And then you'll be posting how mean half of BBI is.
People have accepted that Eli is the starter, until he is not. We are not in a full blown QB controversy yet.
And then you'll be posting how mean half of BBI is.
How stupid they are, maybe.
People have accepted that Eli is the starter, until he is not. We are not in a full blown QB controversy yet.
You have accepted that Eli is the starter. But you are not the entire fan base.
And what team management says will not impact what fans think.
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I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
Fans second guessed Eli when we didn't even have Jones.
I am not arguing the Giants have a chance to win the superbowl, but this franchise has showed more than enough loyalty to Eli and the optimism of a brand new season to allow them to force this decision earlier than needed.
Jones will start in 2019 but I would shocked if its before Oct
You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
The Giants have been clear in their intention.
And then you'll be posting how mean half of BBI is.
this was a funny post though...
I call people stupid when they refuse to accept the reality that is right in front of their nose. Straight up refusal.
You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
The Giants have been clear in their intention.
Britt, a person can logically argue the following:
Why is Manning starting? This is a rebuilding year. We are wasting Saquon Barkley's limited shelf life on making sure that Eli finishes his career in a Giants uniform. What is more important the team or Eli? the sooner Jones plays, the sooner he enters his prime when Saquon is still in his prime. Jones needs to get out the lumps now and not in 2020 and 2021.
Contention? Contention for what? The Super Bowl?
On the flip side, if the coaching staff may not want to throw Jones to the wolves yet. But if this team is 4-6 or even 5-5 by game 10, what was the point?
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starter and will remain so until they are out of contention or he is not helping them win games then they are delusional and not living based in reality.
You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
The Giants have been clear in their intention.
Britt, a person can logically argue the following:
Why is Manning starting? This is a rebuilding year. We are wasting Saquon Barkley's limited shelf life on making sure that Eli finishes his career in a Giants uniform. What is more important the team or Eli? the sooner Jones plays, the sooner he enters his prime when Saquon is still in his prime. Jones needs to get out the lumps now and not in 2020 and 2021.
Contention? Contention for what? The Super Bowl?
On the flip side, if the coaching staff may not want to throw Jones to the wolves yet. But if this team is 4-6 or even 5-5 by game 10, what was the point?
Sure, you can logically argue it. But the Giants have logically come to the conclusion that this is the path going forward. They specifically cited Smith to Mahomes in Kansas City. They feel that Jones will benefit from sitting and learning a little bit more. Maybe they want to give him a little more time since he's coming from Duke and not Ohio St.... Who knows.
But this is the path they've chosen. Now we can "logically" argue it, just like we can logically argue that Manning should be traded to Indy despite the myriad of reasons it can't happen (number one being Manning's no trade clause), then I guess we can participate in that exercise in futility.
We had a long thread debate a few days ago that experience for a young QB doesn't really matter. That statistics showed QBs developed or not developed equally.
it was funny...
No Giants official has said that. It's the assumption by fans who could very be right. Mara may want Eli to start every game. Shurmur may want to go the Manning-Warner route and start Jones even with a winning record.
Beyond what the team wants, the fans will want something else. And yes, fan pressure matters. Just see what happened when Manning was benched. Did you see how fast the Giants scrambled in damage control?
Guessing what the Giants will do in this situation isn't tough -- they chose to pay Manning his full salary and he's been no. 1 on the chart. He's going to start.
But controversies aren't about guessing what will happen, they are born out of what outsiders think should happen.
It comes down to whether or not you think it would benefit the New York Giants to have Daniel Jones start sooner or later.
Where you are on this line of thinking will largely determine your position on Manning and Jones at this point.
Guessing what the Giants will do in this situation isn't tough -- they chose to pay Manning his full salary and he's been no. 1 on the chart. He's going to start.
But controversies aren't about guessing what will happen, they are born out of what outsiders think should happen.
Bingo.
I am not saying what I am saying because I don't like Manning.
I don't think you guys realize how ugly this is going to get for Eli.
Eli's W-L record is 116-114. He could actually finish his career in New York with a losing record. More than that, he could finish his career hearing boos and being benched.
It may be best for Eli to play for a legit Super Bowl contender at this point and not deal with this shit.
This picture is just a preview...
That's what I think is funny.
That's what I think is funny.
Yup.
On the flip side, if Jones were to start, and struggle (which he probably will - remember Eli's rookie year?), half the fan base will say, "Bench him and start Eli again!"
Shades of Simms-Hostetler.
It never ended until the Giants let Hostetler go.
That's what I think is funny.
Our feelings about the pick have nothing to do with it. The decision was made, and Jones’ development should now be the priority. The most meaningless games in Giants history were the nine Kurt Warner started in 2004. We’re about to add Eli’s 2019 starts onto that list.
I am not saying what I am saying because I don't like Manning.
I don't think you guys realize how ugly this is going to get for Eli.
Eli's W-L record is 116-114. He could actually finish his career in New York with a losing record. More than that, he could finish his career hearing boos and being benched.
It may be best for Eli to play for a legit Super Bowl contender at this point and not deal with this shit.
This picture is just a preview...
I see it going the same way.
Hopefully both Eli and/or Giants fans perform better than I predict them to
That's what I think is funny.
90% is an absurd exaggeration.
Second, if the worst case happens and everything goes off the rails again, it allows us to get at least a full season with Jones before the Justin Herbert/Tua quarterback class and TWO full seasons before Trevor Lawrence enters the NFL. I don't want the Giants to be knee-jerk like the Cardinals, but it's always better to know exactly what you have rather than be caught in 4-6 win limbo for a decade.
Haha!
This type of problem solving will land you a CEO role one day!
Luckily the Giants have a head coach who is a proven winner and who has demonstrated many times he can weather adversity and keep his team going. Oh wait.
I think the Giants are mediocre out the gate and Shurmur pulls the plug on Eli to save his job. Jones does ok but is lit up in a game and in the concussion protocol/injured, bringing Eli back into the QB1 spot since he is apparently indestructible. Talk about irony.
But there is no doubt a QB controversy now and in my option the Giants should have jettisoned Eli as soon as they decided to draft a QB.
It will get brutal for Eli no doubt about it. What will be interesting will be how Jones does now that a good preseason start has many anointing him the second coming.
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Did Simms falter? Did Hostetler falter?
Do you actually recognize that at least half the fans want Jones starting now?
I would argue that starting Jones right now makes a certain degree of sense.
I totally agree. Eli is at this point in time nothing more than a placeholder for Jones. The only way he plays the whole season is if they’re winning and he’s playing well. There is a controversy brewing because Eli is clearly on the decline and they’ve brought in his successor.
I personally think the leash on Eli is a lot shorter in Shurmur’s mind than John Mara want us to believe. At this point there is no benefit in playing Eli unless the team has a shot to win while playing Jones gives a head start looking forward to the future. Actually they might have a better chance of winning this year by playing Jones.
I think he is going to have a good year by Eli career standards, but not a good by NFL wise standards. He will perform better than 2017 but 2011 Eli isn't coming back.
I don't think he is going to be able to elevate the team over the shitty defense and lack of a deep threat.
Look at our last six games Eagles twice, Bears on road, Packers, Dolphins, Redskins on road. The only game we are going to be favored in is Dolphins, maybe Skins. The schedule makers did us no favors by Making the back half of the schedule much tougher.
Second, if the worst case happens and everything goes off the rails again, it allows us to get at least a full season with Jones before the Justin Herbert/Tua quarterback class and TWO full seasons before Trevor Lawrence enters the NFL. I don't want the Giants to be knee-jerk like the Cardinals, but it's always better to know exactly what you have rather than be caught in 4-6 win limbo for a decade.
I also agree with Eric and I think what’s also being forgotten here is the Players no matter what they say I think they already know that they have a better chance with Jones ...... imo Eli is going to have to play lights out or it’s going to get ugly for him.....
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think Eli is primed to have a good year, which makes this even tougher.
I think he is going to have a good year by Eli career standards, but not a good by NFL wise standards. He will perform better than 2017 but 2011 Eli isn't coming back.
I don't think he is going to be able to elevate the team over the shitty defense and lack of a deep threat.
That is where Saquon will be a weapon. I think he is such a threat that teams will have to creep closer and closer. I'm not sure a homerun threat is required as much.
But again, perception matters. And fans will over-react to every incompletion, interception, and loss.
(Same thing with Jones as long as Eli is on the roster).
I actually think Eli would be a good fit with the Colts. They have a very good OL.
But I'd be stunned if Eli is traded to the Colts or anyone else, and not just because he has a no trade clause. Even if he waived that clause, I don't think the Giants and any other team would agree on the compensation.
My guess is this is Eli's last year with the Giants, and at that point, he'll have to make a decision about whether to retire, or finish his career with another team. Many QBs in his situation have done the latter, including Montana and Favre.
But I'd be stunned if Eli is traded to the Colts or anyone else, and not just because he has a no trade clause. Even if he waived that clause, I don't think the Giants and any other team would agree on the compensation.
My guess is this is Eli's last year with the Giants, and at that point, he'll have to make a decision about whether to retire, or finish his career with another team. Many QBs in his situation have done the latter, including Montana and Favre.
So did his brother.
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Eli will start as long as we are in contention?
No Giants official has said that. It's the assumption by fans who could very be right. Mara may want Eli to start every game. Shurmur may want to go the Manning-Warner route and start Jones even with a winning record.
Beyond what the team wants, the fans will want something else. And yes, fan pressure matters. Just see what happened when Manning was benched. Did you see how fast the Giants scrambled in damage control?
Eric, you’re 100% right that fan pressure matters. I think it matters a lot more now to John Mara than it did to his father. I don’t think it’s because he cares more but he’s the guy who charged us season ticket holders PSLs so he’s got a lot more angry fans and empty seats to deal with.
But again, perception matters. And fans will over-react to every incompletion, interception, and loss.
(Same thing with Jones as long as Eli is on the roster).
But, Eric, fans have been overreacting to every incompletion, interception and loss for the past 16 years. The truth of the matter is that despite the 2 SB wins, Eli doesn't embody what they perceive what a franchise QB should be. They want the fiery leader. They want the player that creates off-script. Heck, our very own GM (Reese) didn't want Eli. He criticized Eli about his Hang-dog look. If it weren't for the first SB, Reese likely would have had the opportunity to pick his own guy.
Eli's career here is coming near its end, no matter how vested the Giants are in him for 2019. There's no contract for 2020, they drafted his replacement.
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pick (I didn't, I loved it), and Gettleman for making it, and now after three preseason games we have a QB controversy.
That's what I think is funny.
Our feelings about the pick have nothing to do with it. The decision was made, and Jones’ development should now be the priority. The most meaningless games in Giants history were the nine Kurt Warner started in 2004. We’re about to add Eli’s 2019 starts onto that list.
But we’re talking about fan driven reactions by the team here, and their so called ability to influence a controversy or not.
I’m simply saying we’re not there yet despite fans and the media’s best effort. And frankly we won’t be until Manning struggles. That’s my take.
When you start thinking like a fan, you’re sitting with them. The Giants have a very clear vision for this and will carry it out.
Has nothing to do with loving Eli. I was one of the few here that wanted and was happy with the pick of Jones. I’m ready for the next chapter, but I don’t want to rush it for the sake of appeasing fans. I want a professional succession plan and that’s what we’re getting right now.
If Eli is playing well enough and they are in contention then he will remain the starter. If they are in contention in spite of Eli then I expect Jones to replace Eli as the starter.
For the people who talk about Eli's poor record - might want to go back and look at the supporting cast he had for most of those years, including a mediocre defense.
I am not saying what I am saying because I don't like Manning.
I don't think you guys realize how ugly this is going to get for Eli.
Eli's W-L record is 116-114. He could actually finish his career in New York with a losing record. More than that, he could finish his career hearing boos and being benched.
It may be best for Eli to play for a legit Super Bowl contender at this point and not deal with this shit.
This picture is just a preview...
Wow.
Sic transit gloria mundi
Eli looked like Larry Csonka out there.
If Eli is playing well enough and they are in contention then he will remain the starter. If they are in contention in spite of Eli then I expect Jones to replace Eli as the starter.
I hope you are right but fear this will be closer to 2017 when they waited for mathematical elimination
In your hypothetical , if the giants start out strong, they are not going to make a switch after 2 bad games.
It wasn't just because we lost two. Warner was ineffective. We'll see if that happens with Eli.
Ha!
Rodgers is so scared of Jones he entered the witness protection program
It wasn't just because we lost two. Warner was ineffective. We'll see if that happens with Eli.
I'm just saying that we wont make the switch after two ineffective games. Eli's leash will be much longer than Kurt's. Thats my prediction anyway.
It wasn't just because we lost two. Warner was ineffective. We'll see if that happens with Eli.
Kurt Warner went on to play five more seasons for the Arizona Cardinals, helping the team to the Super Bowl.
Just remember this, once they go to Jones, they can't go back.
It is overblown, but it is a preview of what is coming.
I want them to do what they believe is the best approach, not what fans want.
I agree with this. They certainly are not rushing anything.
Just remember this, once they go to Jones, they can't go back.
Thats not what they did in 2004 though. You can't tell me they made the switch because they thought Eli gave them a better chance to win. No way, even in the state he was in Kurt posts a 0.0 passer rating in a game.
And while I agree with you, its a shame that they cant switch back and forth. Seems silly to me.
They shouldn't rush it. Roethlisberger is getting an extension. Phillip Rivers is getting one after this season. Brees and Brady are playing into their 40's.
Now you'll argue that Manning isn't in their class. That's fine. But he's a physically capable franchise QB.
The decline that has been discussed here constantly for the past five years or so is overblown. It's time to start planning for his future, sure. But that doesn't mean he's not capable, or hasn't been capable for the past three years. That's why the Giants have a pretty decent situation. They don't have to throw Jones out there until they want to.
I'm ready to see Jones when they think he's ready for primetime.
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But you seem to think that not starting Jones is the best approach. It is very possible this is not the best approach.
I'm ready to see Jones when they think he's ready for primetime.
what do you think Jones can do to show he is ready once the season starts? Be able to digest the game plan? I'm pretty sure he can do that already.
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In comment 14543745 Eric from BBI said:
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But you seem to think that not starting Jones is the best approach. It is very possible this is not the best approach.
I'm ready to see Jones when they think he's ready for primetime.
what do you think Jones can do to show he is ready once the season starts? Be able to digest the game plan? I'm pretty sure he can do that already.
That's for Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman to decide.
Because at 38, with 39 a few months away, Eli is not going to get better. No matter how hard the EFC tries.
Now a large portion of the fan base have a huge curiosity about the new toy selected at #6. Their interested are now piqued. A toy that is younger, bigger, stronger, and more athletic than the old toy. A toy who has played out of his mind in preseason.
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In comment 14543751 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14543745 Eric from BBI said:
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But you seem to think that not starting Jones is the best approach. It is very possible this is not the best approach.
I'm ready to see Jones when they think he's ready for primetime.
what do you think Jones can do to show he is ready once the season starts? Be able to digest the game plan? I'm pretty sure he can do that already.
That's for Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman to decide.
But what are they deciding on? What is there to grade him on once the season starts? The answer is there really isn't anything Jones can do to show that he is ready above what he has already done.
Let's just say hypothetically, the Giants start out 4-0, and looking pretty good. Manning is playing lights out.
Then they drop one. You ready to yank Manning and roll the dice? That makes the decision much harder.
It's a fluid decision, and will remain so. As Pat Shurmur has said a billion times now, when it's Jones time to play, he'll be ready. They are very aware of their situation. All of it.
Pretty clear, Eli will not be here after this season. You don't draft a guy at 6 to let him sit two years, and Eli will have other options.
thats what I'm afraid of.
I believe Pat hen he says that when its Dan's time, he will be ready.
I'm just afraid that they are going to delay that time for as long as possible out of sentimentality towards Eli.
As I stated before, that wont be the worst thing in the world and not something that will set the franchise back decades or any other extreme argument. Just wont be whats in the best long term interest of the franchise.
The offense could very easily be playing well with marginal play on the defensive side of the ball...
But if they don't think Jones can play now, starting Eli makes more sense.
The sooner Daniel plays, the better it is for the Giants as a franchise. They need to not worry about Eli's legacy. Eli's legacy is over. It's a two-time Super Bowl MVP who saw the second half of his career sabotaged by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross.
One way to interpret that quote is: once Jones is ready, he will play.
Another way to interpret is: When Eli or the team shows that they are not going to be competitive and nothing will be lost by starting a rookie, Jones will be ready (and probably will have been for weeks / months)
I believe the correct interpretation is the latter.
The offense could very easily be playing well with marginal play on the defensive side of the ball...
yeah, I got a real bad feeling about this def. I think its going to be ugly.
I think Eli gives them the best chance to win when the real games start. Jones will get his chance soon enough, before the season ends if Eli falters.
Mahomes sitting a year didn't hurt his performance
I think Eli gives them the best chance to win when the real games start. Jones will get his chance soon enough, before the season ends if Eli falters.
Mahomes sitting a year didn't hurt his performance
So you telling me Jones cant lead the Giants to 8 wins in the next 2 seasons?
I think Eli gives them the best chance to win when the real games start. Jones will get his chance soon enough, before the season ends if Eli falters.
Mahomes sitting a year didn't hurt his performance
Sure. And I basically said above if the coaches think he's not ready, he should sit.
But if if he is ready - even if doesn't give the Giants the better chance to win in the short-term - then sitting him makes little sense. Again, Barkley's shelf life is only so long. We don't have the luxury of giving Eli a goodbye season here.
agreed, I think there wont be much of one which factors heavily into my prediction. But what do I know
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becoming a detriment to winning. He was shot, gunshy, and prone to fumbling. He was a shell of the player he was, or would return to be.
It wasn't just because we lost two. Warner was ineffective. We'll see if that happens with Eli.
I'm just saying that we wont make the switch after two ineffective games. Eli's leash will be much longer than Kurt's. Thats my prediction anyway.
agree, I have same view
I think some of those that are insisting that Jones needs to sit on the bench and learn more are really just saying they want to see Eli get another chance to finish on a high note, which is fine. I am ok with Eli starting the season with a short leash, but I am certainly not going to sit here and say with conviction that Eli gives the Giants a better chance to win this year than Jones.
Pretty clear, Eli will not be here after this season. You don't draft a guy at 6 to let him sit two years, and Eli will have other options.
Well, with Mara's adoration for Eli, I don't think anything is a given. And I'm not so sure Mara wants to see Eli in another uniform. I think that may crush the old man.
There is nothing like playing in a live game. You can't replicate it in practice or preseason. The only way to learn is to play. So I just don't buy this learning on the sideline gig. Particularly in today's game where it's more QB and offensive friendly, this view seems old and stale.
But if they don't think Jones can play now, starting Eli makes more sense.
The sooner Daniel plays, the better it is for the Giants as a franchise. They need to not worry about Eli's legacy. Eli's legacy is over. It's a two-time Super Bowl MVP who saw the second half of his career sabotaged by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross.
Agree with all this. But there still can be greyness that they "think" Jones can play now but not 100% sure, so they use that as there backdrop to wait. And then maybe use a struggling Eli or struggling offense to force the change.
Jones hasn't seen what starting NFL defenses are going to do to confuse him. They haven't game-planned for him yet. He is going to make stupid, stupid mistakes.
But again, the clock is ticking.
I think some of those that are insisting that Jones needs to sit on the bench and learn more are really just saying they want to see Eli get another chance to finish on a high note, which is fine. I am ok with Eli starting the season with a short leash, but I am certainly not going to sit here and say with conviction that Eli gives the Giants a better chance to win this year than Jones.
Sitting mahomes probably didn't hurt him, but it wasn't in the best interest of the team?
Is it possible that he beats the patriots in that playoff game if he had another year of experience under his belt?
So I'm not one to claim Eli this great decision maker on a football field...
my view at least...
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I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
Seems like fans run the team, under this assumption, than the gm. Ala Eli fiasco with geno smith. Pathetic to believe so if were even remotely true.
RE: Barkley - If Eli gives them the best chance to win, why wouldn't you use the QB who gives you the better chance of winning during that shelf life?
bw - Keep in mind, it's not just about what people want for Eli. Put yourself in his shoes. He knows Jones is the future - do you sign basicaly a year to year extension while you're keeping the seat warm for Jones, knowing that any string of mistakes could send you to the bench - or do you look around the league and ask - what is the best place for me to play given where I'm at in this point in my career. If his agent has any semblence of competence - I'm sure that search began a year if not two years ago.
Mara remembers the mobs/fans marching outside the castle with torches lit a few years just two seasons ago - won't take much for that to resurface. And, re: Maras overiding Shurmur (who is Gettleman's guys) leaks are a powerful tool during organizational power struggles
I'm not qualified to make the call so, I'm okay whichever direction they go in. But, if the decision is to go w/Jones - I'd try to get Eli and another team to agree to a trade. Get something for him, if possible - and remove the distraction
Half the people here think Eli sucks but don’t want him to play anywhere else. It’s odd.
Eli is in the last year of his contract and his successor is nipping at his heels. He’s playing in the toughest media market for a very critical fan base. The rest of the roster is in transition. Objectively, this is a terrible situation for someone in Eli’s shoes.
If he wants to continue his playing career beyond this season, it’s going to be with another team. The Colts would be a great fit for a lot of reasons and it would be a win for all parties involved if they work out a deal.
Eli is in the last year of his contract and his successor is nipping at his heels. He’s playing in the toughest media market for a very critical fan base. The rest of the roster is in transition. Objectively, this is a terrible situation for someone in Eli’s shoes.
what?? The Giants have arguably put a better line in front of him, given him a fabulous running back, a rising TE and jettisoned his headache (albeit very talented) WR.
Objectively...his situation is better now except time is up with his contract.
the problem with measuring how much an aging athlete has in the tank, is that it is not predictable like a car's gas tank. you know when your car will run out of gas. with an aging athlete skills (i.e., QB's arm) - the tank could be depleted to the point of impacting performance, at any point in the season - and it is not unlikely that it will happen later in the year, the most important part of the season.
Whether he starts or not, the Jones era has already begun
But wouldn't you say that was the right move?
But wouldn't you say that was the right move?
People forget how tough the back half of our schedule was compared to the first half. I don't think Warner was going to win too much more than Eli.
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Eli is in the last year of his contract and his successor is nipping at his heels. He’s playing in the toughest media market for a very critical fan base. The rest of the roster is in transition. Objectively, this is a terrible situation for someone in Eli’s shoes.
what?? The Giants have arguably put a better line in front of him, given him a fabulous running back, a rising TE and jettisoned his headache (albeit very talented) WR.
Objectively...his situation is better now except time is up with his contract.
The entire roster is in transition. A better situation doesn’t mean anything if the standard is dogshit to somewhere better than dogshit.
The OL is a question mark. The receiving options are a question mark. The only sure thing on offense is Barkley. The entire defense is a question mark.
The entire situation screams placeholder QB to any reasonable person. If Eli thinks he can play several more years in the league, this is one of the worst spots for him.
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In comment 14543576 Jimmy Googs said:
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I was just noting Jones is still just heir apparent until Eli shows he doesn't make a difference in 2019. I think it will happen but that controversy hasn't yet started.
Fans have already taken sides. Eli is just a placeholder right now unless you think the Giants really have a shot at the Super Bowl in 2019.
Eli is going to be second-guessed and booed until he is benched by half the fan base. The Giants are merely postponing the inevitable to these fans, who actually may be right.
Seems like fans run the team, under this assumption, than the gm. Ala Eli fiasco with geno smith. Pathetic to believe so if were even remotely true.
Personally I don't need a SB to be happy with the season. If this team plays competitive football and makes the playoffs, even being 1 and done, I'll be a satisfied fan.
Side note, it's nice to be able to have an adult conversation on this topic without the usual shit flingers mucking it up.
The entire roster is in transition. A better situation doesn’t mean anything if the standard is dogshit to somewhere better than dogshit.
The OL is a question mark. The receiving options are a question mark. The only sure thing on offense is Barkley. The entire defense is a question mark.
The entire situation screams placeholder QB to any reasonable person. If Eli thinks he can play several more years in the league, this is one of the worst spots for him.
The placeholder QB is a different point. Whether it was right or wrong is moot...that ship sailed when they gave Eli $5M for his roster bonus in March.
And I don't disagree there are questions but no dispute the dogshit has gotten better pieces.
But wouldn't you say that was the right move?
Wouldn't we have to the results of the alternative plan(s) to say which was the better move? Certainly moving to Manning produced results we are happy with, but that only presents that specific road.
So the sooner he moves on, the better for him too.
There is no future for him in New York unless something weird happens with Jones or Jones is a complete bust.
Eric my point is simply that how many times in life does something happen where we say to ourselves "I didn't see that coming?"
I don't see the point in deciding what the better road was when we don't know the results of the other alternatives
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
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If Eli doesn't start in 2004 and go through those growing pains, he more than likely goes through those growing pains in 2005 and we don't make the playoffs that year.
Eric my point is simply that how many times in life does something happen where we say to ourselves "I didn't see that coming?"
I don't see the point in deciding what the better road was when we don't know the results of the other alternatives
Well it does happen all the time in sports.
Both 2007 and 2011 come to mind.
So the sooner he moves on, the better for him too.
There is no future for him in New York unless something weird happens with Jones or Jones is a complete bust.
Exactly.
I think people are assuming Eli has internally committed to playing this last year out and riding off into the sunset. I don’t think that’s the case.
He’s talked about how good his body feels and how strong his arm feels. On the injury front he’s essentially made it out unscathed over a 16 year career. He has less injury mileage than Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers.
He may think he can play another 5 years. That’s definitely not going to happen here.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
Of course. And Shurmur's immediate motivations (job security) are different than Gettleman's.
But that doesn't make it right.
What we know is that the arc of Eli's career led to 2007 and 2011.
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And realize that Pay Shurmur thinks this is a playoff team as of today. And in order to make the playoffs... he feels Eli is the best route.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
Of course. And Shurmur's immediate motivations (job security) are different than Gettleman's.
But that doesn't make it right.
Doesn’t make it wrong either. The point is get to the dance. And Shurmur is going to do what he thinks is best to get them there.
To me there is no difference is Jones starts 4, 6, or even 8 games. Every season is a new animal. It has been proven you can sit the whole year or play 1 game and be fine.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
dep, do you know anything going on with the Rangers at all? I don't believe you're a hockey fan since I don't remember you in any Rangers related threads. The Rangers were underwhelming but still in the playoff hunt during the 2017-18 season, they were coming off a season where they went to the second round, were very close to making it to the conference final, and were in the playoffs 12 of the last 13 seasons, including a trip to the Final and eastern conference final in the last few years. The GM blew it all up even though they clearly could have made the playoffs because he wanted to build a contender for years to come. Now, no Alain Vigneault wasn't responsible for it. However, either Gettleman or Mara should be more concerned about the future of the team over possibly being a one and done in the playoffs by getting lucky this year as a 9-7 wildcard team.
Although I'm in favor of playing Jones sooner rather than later (not week 1) I don't need a SB win to be happy with the season. As stated above, just give me competitive well executed football week in week out and I'll be happy.
I don't think that will happen with this roster no matter who the QB is but I'm not the GM and couldn't get that job if I wanted to be.
They play the games for a reason.
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In comment 14543920 dep026 said:
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And realize that Pay Shurmur thinks this is a playoff team as of today. And in order to make the playoffs... he feels Eli is the best route.
Players don’t play for 2020. They are playing for 2019.
Of course. And Shurmur's immediate motivations (job security) are different than Gettleman's.
But that doesn't make it right.
Doesn’t make it wrong either. The point is get to the dance. And Shurmur is going to do what he thinks is best to get them there.
To me there is no difference is Jones starts 4, 6, or even 8 games. Every season is a new animal. It has been proven you can sit the whole year or play 1 game and be fine.
It's been shown that it can happen, but history shows it's not remotely likely.
It's proven that people win the lottery but I wouldn't invest my retirement fund in lottery tickets.
And there are examples of it happening when starting day 1. But no two situations are the same. If this team stinks like many are proclaiming, why play him? Won’t bad habits formed? This isn’t Prescott coming in with an all world offense to run either.
Again.... if the goal is to make the playoffs... the better QB plays. Period.
And I said this before. If you’re going young, then cut Bethea. Trade jackrabbit and ogletree as well. Right?
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
That answer can not be determined. How much better did Rosen gst? And he’s still not the starter in Miami.
Will people still want Jones to start? Even with Eli playing well?
And there are examples of it happening when starting day 1. But no two situations are the same. If this team stinks like many are proclaiming, why play him? Won’t bad habits formed? This isn’t Prescott coming in with an all world offense to run either.
Again.... if the goal is to make the playoffs... the better QB plays. Period.
And I said this before. If you’re going young, then cut Bethea. Trade jackrabbit and ogletree as well. Right?
If it's likely to happen, then the opinion should be to start him day one.
If you think he is worthy of the 6th pick and he will be the guy he is going to be from the get go, let's get it going.
I don't think you actually believe that though, you are just looking for reasons to keep playing Eli.
If you think Jones won't benefit from playing time, that is a non sensical opinion in my view.
I want the best player to play, and right now it’s Eli. If he gives us the best chance to make the playoffs then I want him to be the QB. It’s really simple.
But maybe I think you want to start Jones “cause you no longer support Eli.” Fun to make stupid claims, right?
And you think Eli wants this? To know if he starts 0-3 (insert whatever bad record you want here) that he may not start the rest of the season? That doesn't sound fun to me. And he's already said he wants to keep playing. You think he wants to be a backup this year when things go south? And they will go south, this is not a playoff team. How does that help him for his next contract?
The best thing they could do for Eli is to trade him. Forget draft pick compensation in return, it's the best they could do by both Eli and Jones.
I want the best player to play, and right now it’s Eli. If he gives us the best chance to make the playoffs then I want him to be the QB. It’s really simple.
But maybe I think you want to start Jones “cause you no longer support Eli.” Fun to make stupid claims, right?
You realize you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, right? If your opinion is correct, you're benefitting the Giants this year in a year where we most likely won't make the playoffs and almost definitely won't win a Super Bowl, at the expense of a year in the future because Jones, unless he has some Patrick Mahomes in him will lose a year of development. And in that year of development, we might have a much better and more experienced team than this year. There's just no substitute for playing, no matter how much film he watches.
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I have been as big of Jones fan as anyone on this site.
I want the best player to play, and right now it’s Eli. If he gives us the best chance to make the playoffs then I want him to be the QB. It’s really simple.
But maybe I think you want to start Jones “cause you no longer support Eli.” Fun to make stupid claims, right?
You realize you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, right? If your opinion is correct, you're benefitting the Giants this year in a year where we most likely won't make the playoffs and almost definitely won't win a Super Bowl, at the expense of a year in the future because Jones, unless he has some Patrick Mahomes in him will lose a year of development. And in that year of development, we might have a much better and more experienced team than this year. There's just no substitute for playing, no matter how much film he watches.
I should say in that year that we lose we might have a better team than this year. In fact, we most likely will.
And I wonder what the players would think of playing a lesssr player at the most important position cause they are projecting for 2020 and beyond.
I am sure that would go over really well in the lockeroom.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
Again, we debated this earlier this week. Some here feel there is no difference if he had 10 games or not.
I don’t tend to agree the experience is valuable but that’s the question. Add in fan optimism for a 2019 season and/or inability to let go of Eli and next you know we have a 500 post thread arguing nonsensical points of view.
And I wonder what the players would think of playing a lesssr player at the most important position cause they are projecting for 2020 and beyond.
I am sure that would go over really well in the lockeroom.
Sign me up for Jones playing 6 to 8 games.
This of course is the second best option behind making the playoffs.
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The difference of growth is from playing 6-8 games than a whole season.
And I wonder what the players would think of playing a lesssr player at the most important position cause they are projecting for 2020 and beyond.
I am sure that would go over really well in the lockeroom.
Sign me up for Jones playing 6 to 8 games.
This of course is the second best option behind making the playoffs.
Then why are you disagreeing with me? It’s been the point the whole time. Haha
And go..
And go..
You aren’t bright, are you?
You start Eli. If we are winning and in the playoff hunt, he stays in. If he struggles or the team does... then throw Jones in.
You would be the 1 fan who would complain if Eli had a big year and we made the playoffs.
And go..... away.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
Bw doing his best troll job again.
And I wonder what the players would think of playing a lesssr player at the most important position cause they are projecting for 2020 and beyond.
I am sure that would go over really well in the lockeroom.
It's Gettleman and Mara's job to think of the health and future of the franchise, not the players'.
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Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
While I am not necessarily disagreeing with you,
when you hear Mara talks like he does recently...
that doesn't help the scenario you would like to create.
With that said, at some point this year, I would presume Jones will be starting, since I am expecting another losing season.
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Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
Do you really think there are legitimate odds that Jones really busts, though? In a way where we'd know after ~10 starts as a rookie that we need to seek an alternative?
I can see struggles - but I can't imagine him being that bad that we'd be able to draw that conclusion so soon. I'd be stunned if Jones played significant snaps this year and was literally so bad that we reverse course and decide he's not a viable option going forward.
Anything can happen, but that would really shock me.
I understand the opportunity cost argument here; but I actually think those arguments were more sound regarding Barkley since the shelf-life of a running back can be markedly shorter than that of a QB.
We have time with Jones.
I look at it this way...
There's only one scenario in my mind where Jones doesn't see action this year, and it's the unlikely scenario where the Giants eclipse the midway point of the year and are legitimately in the mix and are winning football games and Eli has a lot to do with it.
Again - this is unlikely and I would be surprised.
But, if the Giants are 5-3 after 8 games and Eli is playing some really good ball, I don't see the major harm in continuing to allow him to play. The object is to win, isn't it?
Now, what I expect to happen.... is an uneven start to the year. I think the Giants will be up and down most of the season.
The spot where I could see the QB change happening is after Week 6 - when we play the Patriots on the road on TNF. That's going to be an extremely, extremely tough game to win coming off the Vikings and just 4 days to prepare.
So, if through 6 games, we're 2-4 or something like that... you've got 10 days to get Daniel ready to go against Arizona at home on October 20 - which I think would be a good spot for him to take the reins.
As long as they don't stick with Eli through poor play/performance longer than they need to, I don't think there's going to be much of a difference in Jones' career trajectory whether he sees action in 10 games this year, or 6.
The way NYG handled Eli's rookie year was totally fine, and didn't have any negative impact on Eli. Eli was firmly entrenched as the starter going into 2005 - and I believe that will be the case with Jones going into 2020. Eli did quite alright in his first season despite not getting a full slate in 2004.
We will have time here. I think NYG could very feasibly produce a championship caliber roster before Jones' rookie deal is up.
If Gettleman handles this right, we should be expecting playoffs as soon as next year.
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Then whats the point of having Eli again. They aren't resigning him after this year?
And go..
You aren’t bright, are you?
You start Eli. If we are winning and in the playoff hunt, he stays in. If he struggles or the team does... then throw Jones in.
You would be the 1 fan who would complain if Eli had a big year and we made the playoffs.
And go..... away.
So all i got from your answer is insults..intelligent!!
But you can still go away.
My nightmare scenario is hearing about how good of a week of practice they had as they flounder under 500 but keep playing Eli as no one has run away with the NFCE.
I'm willing to let it play out though, not like I have another option
But you can still go away.
😂🤣
It was one thing when the backups were Geno Smith, Davis Webb, or Kyle Lauletta - but now, we invested a 6th overall pick in a QB. That's a guy that is expected to not only play, but be the future of the franchise.
The hook might not be as quick as I'd like to see in the event we're struggling... but I do think it'll be way too difficult for Shurmur to keep Jones on the sidelines if the Giants get off to a bad start.
If they keep sending Eli out there far longer than they should, I will be right there with you guys and will be aggravated.
I don't think Jones necessarily has a superior arm to Manning.
Mobility, yes.
But - don't discount the comfort level and the ability to read the field, go through progressions, diagnose blitzes, etc.
Eli is going to be far more prepared to handle stuff like that in the early going.
As long as the Giants handle this in a way where Jones gets to play should Eli and the offense/team struggle in the early going, it's not a bad move to let Eli take the reins out of the gates.
The goal is to win games, and the Giants are going to give the ball to the guy they believe gives them the best chance.
Love what I have seen from Jones, but it'll be a lot harder in Dallas once he's got guys twisting and stunting inside and blitzes are coming from all different angles. Eli will handle these reads better and will pick them up faster.
From an ability standpoint, I tend to agree there's probably not THAT much Eli does at this point that Daniel cannot. But, don't discount the cerebral aspect of the game and the fact that Eli has seen it all after a decade and a half.
In what will probably be a close game - the more we can minimize mistakes, the better off we probably are.
DG and the Giants org have kept mentioning how they go 6-2 or even 7-1 2nd half last year if the D could make just one stop late in games. This team despite the collective youths learning curve on Defense should be markedly better than that team.
10-6 or even better with some health is not out of the question.
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In comment 14543949 Eric from BBI said:
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Except there is a REAL opportunity cost here to not playing Daniel Jones if he is ready to play. Again, the longer you hold off on the inevitable, the more you are postponing the inevitable growing pains.
In other words, how much better off would the 2020 New York Giants be if Jones actually had 10+ regular-season games already under his belt?
The opportunity costs are huge. The sooner we play Jones the sooner we can discern if he's a boom or a bust. If he's a boom, then we likely have more financial resources to to build around Jones. If he's a bust, we can begin looking for other solutions. I'm perplexed more people don't see that more clearly and want to accelerate the process.
The more Eli plays the more time we essentially waste getting to that inflection point. Because at the end of the day, despite the NFL being as unpredictable as ever, the odds are still very much stacked against us that we can compete for big prizes in 2019.
I actually think Jones is potentially better equipped to help this team win more than Eli. Shurmur's playbook is a helluva lot more geared to exploit Jones's athleticism than Eli's lack thereof...
Do you really think there are legitimate odds that Jones really busts, though? In a way where we'd know after ~10 starts as a rookie that we need to seek an alternative?
I can see struggles - but I can't imagine him being that bad that we'd be able to draw that conclusion so soon. I'd be stunned if Jones played significant snaps this year and was literally so bad that we reverse course and decide he's not a viable option going forward.
Anything can happen, but that would really shock me.
I understand the opportunity cost argument here; but I actually think those arguments were more sound regarding Barkley since the shelf-life of a running back can be markedly shorter than that of a QB.
We have time with Jones.
I look at it this way...
There's only one scenario in my mind where Jones doesn't see action this year, and it's the unlikely scenario where the Giants eclipse the midway point of the year and are legitimately in the mix and are winning football games and Eli has a lot to do with it.
Again - this is unlikely and I would be surprised.
But, if the Giants are 5-3 after 8 games and Eli is playing some really good ball, I don't see the major harm in continuing to allow him to play. The object is to win, isn't it?
Now, what I expect to happen.... is an uneven start to the year. I think the Giants will be up and down most of the season.
The spot where I could see the QB change happening is after Week 6 - when we play the Patriots on the road on TNF. That's going to be an extremely, extremely tough game to win coming off the Vikings and just 4 days to prepare.
So, if through 6 games, we're 2-4 or something like that... you've got 10 days to get Daniel ready to go against Arizona at home on October 20 - which I think would be a good spot for him to take the reins.
As long as they don't stick with Eli through poor play/performance longer than they need to, I don't think there's going to be much of a difference in Jones' career trajectory whether he sees action in 10 games this year, or 6.
The way NYG handled Eli's rookie year was totally fine, and didn't have any negative impact on Eli. Eli was firmly entrenched as the starter going into 2005 - and I believe that will be the case with Jones going into 2020. Eli did quite alright in his first season despite not getting a full slate in 2004.
We will have time here. I think NYG could very feasibly produce a championship caliber roster before Jones' rookie deal is up.
If Gettleman handles this right, we should be expecting playoffs as soon as next year.
Seems like the vast majority of people would be surprised at 5-3 at the halfway point. So why not just start Jones from the start?
My nightmare scenario is hearing about how good of a week of practice they had as they flounder under 500 but keep playing Eli as no one has run away with the NFCE.
I'm willing to let it play out though, not like I have another option
Wouldn't be surprised honestly. Kurt Warner doesn't have shit on Eli as far as accomplishments for this franchise. One was a stop gap signed for a season, one was a 15 year starter with 2 Super Bowl rings and 2 Super Bowl game winning drives under his belt. Can't compare the situations.
Going into a very loud AT&T Stadium for Week 1 and dealing with a defense that is no longer holding anything back and facing starters for 4 quarters is a different animal - and one Eli is almost certainly better-equipped to handle right now. He's opened in Dallas like 5 different times in his career now. He knows what to expect.
I really believe Eli is going to perform better than people are expecting him to. It has been a while since he's had both a capable offensive line - and he's never had an elite RB like Saquon up until last year.
Just my take... but I think Eli is tired of hearing that he's finished. We're going to get everything he's got in the tank.
Jacobs and Bradshaw were a great duo.
But - Barkley is just a totally different animal.
Quarterback is an outsized position -- it's who you build around, what type of weapons you acquire, what types of safety blankets are needed, and what type of players you avoid.
If the Giants come out of this year with out 8 games of Jones or a playoff birth, it's a disaster.
Didn’t know the Colts have two second rounders in the 2020 draft. That would be a win-win-win for everyone.
I'm stunned you don't see a difference between playing 6 games or 10. That's another 24 quarters of live football. That's the most important piece to Jones's development - experience. The more he's sees in terms of D schemes, game speed, etc, the better.
The object is to win - yes. And I'm okay taking the risk to do that with Jones.
Quarterback is an outsized position -- it's who you build around, what type of weapons you acquire, what types of safety blankets are needed, and what type of players you avoid.
If the Giants come out of this year with out 8 games of Jones or a playoff birth, it's a disaster.
I agree with the ultimate point you arrive at - if Jones doesn't play half the season or more, and we aren't a playoff team - that's probably worst-case scenario.
But - I also don't think there's a whole lot we need to figure out in terms of what we put around him. The RB is in place - we all believe Barkley has generational, all-world ability and will be a best friend for whoever we put out there.
We need to emphasize two areas next offseason to really get this offense to where it needs to be -
1. OL (Long-term answer @ RT, depth, perhaps Solder's eventual replacement(
2. Top flight WR
I think without Jones even playing, those things are evident.
A big time, two-way TE would be a luxury - I'd love to add that as well. But I expect us to do it by committee for now - with Engram being the big pass catching threat, and the other guys being relied on more in traditional roles that emphasize blocking.
We're close - I think we just need another year and some experience for Daniel and if Gettleman can swing another strong draft and FA period where we'll have money to spend, this should be a team that really pushes for a playoff spot in 2020.
I'm stunned you don't see a difference between playing 6 games or 10. That's another 24 quarters of live football. That's the most important piece to Jones's development - experience. The more he's sees in terms of D schemes, game speed, etc, the better.
The object is to win - yes. And I'm okay taking the risk to do that with Jones.
There are a lot of options between boom and bust.
I’d cay the chances he is a bust ie doesn’t get to play out his rookie deal are minuscule
- A new RT and Center
- 2 new WRs
- 2nd TE
- 3rd down back
Health permitting the locks I see are Solder (eck), Zeitler, Hernandez, Barkley, Engram, Shepard - every other position is open for an upgrade to me.
And I especially would expect the WRs and TEs to be good fits for Jones.
I'm stunned you don't see a difference between playing 6 games or 10. That's another 24 quarters of live football. That's the most important piece to Jones's development - experience. The more he's sees in terms of D schemes, game speed, etc, the better.
The object is to win - yes. And I'm okay taking the risk to do that with Jones.
I really don't believe the ~4 game difference is going to swing him in one way or another. The furthest I'd go there is to say that more experience and PT are almost certainly not going to do any harm. So, sure - the more he gets, the better. But to me, him getting 8 games or 12 games isn't going to swing the pendulum much at all.
Mahomes only got 1 start as a rookie. It was fairly nondescript. He was league MVP and threw 50 TD passes in year 2. How much better than that was he going to be even if he had 4-5 more starts in 2017? It was a historic year for a 23 year old kid as it was. I don't think he could have possibly done more than he did.
I expect Jones to get significantly more action than Mahomes did.
Rodgers only attempted 16 garbage time passes as a rookie. Brees started 0 games as a rookie. Brady threw 3 passes as a rookie.
Two of the above guys are 40+ years old now. They're still going and the Pats and Saints are going to be two of the best teams in the NFL.
You have to be careful with the QB - there's no one-size-fits-all proposition for these guys. If Jones turns out to be the real deal, it's not going to matter. He'll be here for years. Just like Eli has been.
If he isn't, it won't be because of 3-4 starts he didn't get as a rookie.
I just don't see any way we'd be able to determine that Jones is a bust this year. He'd have to be horrendous... and after what we've seen of him so far, no matter how simplistic the looks he's seeing are - I'd really be surprised by that.
I could see him struggling and being "eh" - but to play so poorly that we're convinced he was a bad pick this year, that would just really stun me.
Dak Prescott won 13 games as a rookie 4th round pick. Wentz started all 16 games as a rookie and started 3-0 and would have won MVP year two if he didn't shred his knee. Andrew Luck took a 2 win team without Peyton Manning to the playoffs as a rookie. Deshaun Watson entered week 1 after halftime of his rookie year and was playing out of his mind until he got hurt. Baker Mayfield came in last year at half time of week three and broke Payton Manning's rookie TD pass record.
Brees, Brady and Rodgers are all outdated examples. Again, I am fine with Eli getting one more shot, but given what we have seen of Jones so far in the NFL, and recent history of what rookie QBs can do in this league, it is very possible that he actually gives the Giants a better chance of winning this year than Eli.
The old school thought is it's a luxury to sit a QB for a season or two until bringing him in. What Aaron Rodgers got to experience as a 3 year backup IMO has helped make him a star QB in this league. If Garoppolo becomes a star QB in this league, then a lot of that will be attributed to his time backing up Brady for 3 1/2 seasons, and hell maybe even 13 games on IR last year.
You can't replace game experience, but you can increase the floor of a QB's performance once he starts and hopefully reduce the learning curve dramatically. You're also reducing the possibility of the QB struggling as much which can affect their confidence long term.
I think it helps more than hurts in nearly every circumstance. In an extreme case, you get a guy like Alex Smith who absolutely needed to sit and eventually would become a good QB.
If you're going to start a QB early he has to be either a top top prospect like Luck/Peyton Manning, have an offense built around him like RG3, or be put on a pitch count like Russell Wilson.
Even a late season switch like Warner to Eli in 2004 isn't a bad idea because by then the rookie/backup can come in and play loose and still take advantage of the few extra months sitting and game planning real games.
But there is a certain logic to this as far as all parties are concerned.
Eric I completely agree. If the Colts wanted Manning, Eli accepted the trade, and the Giants pulled that trigger for a few draft picks?
Everyone wins.
Outside of Eli having a great year and the Giants winning the Super Bowl? The Eli-to-the-Colts scenario is the least uncomfortable Eli exit strategy for all.
Enough of time where Jones shows command on the field, handles some adversity and can build up some confidence in himself and the coaches.
Making 2020 a season to go make something happen...
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We're officially in the middle of a QB controversy.
Enough of time where Jones shows command on the field, handles some adversity and can build up some confidence in himself and the coaches.
Making 2020 a season to go make something happen...
I agree with this - it's hard to pinpoint a number of games. It's not like we're privy to data that pinpoints the perfect spot because it doesn't exist and varies for each player. I think we all feel like Jones can and should play several games this year, and it will bode well for him going into 2020 to have that experience.
I don't think it necessarily makes a huge difference how many games it is - as long as it's more than a couple.
Like I've said a few times - there's only one way I am okay with Jones not getting a good deal of starts this year and it's if Eli is playing really well and has the team in a playoff position.
If not, Jones has to get starts this year.
I think we just need to let it play out since it's impossible to map out from here and there are so many external factors that will play a role.
Dak Prescott won 13 games as a rookie 4th round pick. Wentz started all 16 games as a rookie and started 3-0 and would have won MVP year two if he didn't shred his knee. Andrew Luck took a 2 win team without Peyton Manning to the playoffs as a rookie. Deshaun Watson entered week 1 after halftime of his rookie year and was playing out of his mind until he got hurt. Baker Mayfield came in last year at half time of week three and broke Payton Manning's rookie TD pass record.
Brees, Brady and Rodgers are all outdated examples. Again, I am fine with Eli getting one more shot, but given what we have seen of Jones so far in the NFL, and recent history of what rookie QBs can do in this league, it is very possible that he actually gives the Giants a better chance of winning this year than Eli.
Cam — limited ceiling, always hurt
Wentz — always hurt
Luck — always hurt, retired
Dak — mediocre QB
If your examples are what we can hope for from Jones, the Giants are in trouble.
Rodgers was in his 4th camp, Rivers was in his 3rd, Young was in his 8th.
Those guys didn't really hit the ground running. Now if the Giants plan to sit Jones 2-8 years, maybe some burn in year one isn't so important. But if they plan on continuing a re-build and give him the reigns next year, it's wise to get him on the field.
Dak Prescott won 13 games as a rookie 4th round pick. Wentz started all 16 games as a rookie and started 3-0 and would have won MVP year two if he didn't shred his knee. Andrew Luck took a 2 win team without Peyton Manning to the playoffs as a rookie. Deshaun Watson entered week 1 after halftime of his rookie year and was playing out of his mind until he got hurt. Baker Mayfield came in last year at half time of week three and broke Payton Manning's rookie TD pass record.
Brees, Brady and Rodgers are all outdated examples. Again, I am fine with Eli getting one more shot, but given what we have seen of Jones so far in the NFL, and recent history of what rookie QBs can do in this league, it is very possible that he actually gives the Giants a better chance of winning this year than Eli.
Is Mahomes an outdated example?
There's also Goff... he started 7 games as a rookie and lost all of them. He was bad. He completed under 55% of his passes. He threw just 5 TD's. 7 picks.
Do we know that him taking those lumps better prepared him for his sophomore year where he was significantly better? It's possible. It's also possible that he just wasn't ready and played before he really had a good feel for things.
It's hard to look at past examples and extrapolate anything significant from it because every QB is just a different animal. Some guys are really good right away... like Wilson or Watson...but QB's like Goff weren't.
So much of it depends on the team around the QB, his background, etc.
Dallas had the luxury of placing Prescott into a situation where he was primed to succeed. Great OL, top flight running game. The onus wasn't on him to carry the offense.
Mark Sanchez also was able to enter a really favorable situation for the Jets and have success in 2009 and 2010 because of how good their defense and run game was. If you only need your rookie QB to manage, it makes life a lot easier.
If he does, it's foolish to keep him on the sidelines. He's the future and arguably the present for this team.
As a fan I'll accept Manning as the QB so long as the team appears to be seriously competing for a playoff spot.
But if the Giants are mathematically in it at 1-7 like last year, that would be a lame excuse.
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In fact, it's unlikely they'll finish above .500 with Manning and probably with Jones. If this is the case, it makes little sense to play Manning. Jones' arm and mobility are superior to Manning. Manning has an edge knowledge-wise. But since the Giants aren't going anywhere this year, not much point in playing Manning. Play Jones and let him develop. Things would be different if Jones were Lauletta who has physical limitations.
I don't think Jones necessarily has a superior arm to Manning.
Mobility, yes.
But - don't discount the comfort level and the ability to read the field, go through progressions, diagnose blitzes, etc.
Eli is going to be far more prepared to handle stuff like that in the early going.
As long as the Giants handle this in a way where Jones gets to play should Eli and the offense/team struggle in the early going, it's not a bad move to let Eli take the reins out of the gates.
The goal is to win games, and the Giants are going to give the ball to the guy they believe gives them the best chance.
Love what I have seen from Jones, but it'll be a lot harder in Dallas once he's got guys twisting and stunting inside and blitzes are coming from all different angles. Eli will handle these reads better and will pick them up faster.
From an ability standpoint, I tend to agree there's probably not THAT much Eli does at this point that Daniel cannot. But, don't discount the cerebral aspect of the game and the fact that Eli has seen it all after a decade and a half.
In what will probably be a close game - the more we can minimize mistakes, the better off we probably are.
I totally agree that Eli has the cerebral edge, and no doubt by a wide margin. But when playing against a team with superior talent, cerebral is not enough to win the game. Whereas playing against a sophisticated defense is a superb learning opportunity for a young quarterback. Regardless of who plays week 1, it will be a "must see" game.
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Do we know that him taking those lumps better prepared him for his sophomore year where he was significantly better? It's possible. It's also possible that he just wasn't ready and played before he really had a good feel for things.
It's hard to look at past examples and extrapolate anything significant from it because every QB is just a different animal. Some guys are really good right away... like Wilson or Watson...but QB's like Goff weren't.
I don't disagree with you. As my previous subject stated, I was just saying you could just as easily make the argument the other way. We have no idea if Jones will play well when the real bullets fly like the guys I mentioned or struggle like Goff or other guys have.
To your other point, yes I do believe that Goff's struggles as a rookie helped him tremendously heading into his second year.
I have no problem with them easing Jones into this and starting Eli, but I do think the leash should be short. If Jones looked like a deer in the headlights in preseason I would be all for holding out, but he has looked tremendous and he certainly looks like he is capable of starting and playing well, just as many other recent rookie QBs have.
I am just saying that there is a strong assumption here that the team's only chance of winning this season is with Eli, and I am not convinced that is the case. Maybe he would struggle like Goff, but maybe he will play just as well as some of those guys I mentioned. We won't know until we see it.
I feel similarly in that I am fine with Eli starting - I just don't want the leash to be so long that we don't make a change until we're mathematically out of it. The only way I want Eli playing beyond the halfway point is if we're humming along and really winning games.
As long as they handle it the right way, it won't bother me. If we just keep sending Eli out there to lose game after game out of loyalty or sentimentality, I will certainly have an issue with that and will be the first guy to say I don't like the approach.
I feel similarly in that I am fine with Eli starting - I just don't want the leash to be so long that we don't make a change until we're mathematically out of it. The only way I want Eli playing beyond the halfway point is if we're humming along and really winning games.
There has got be some concern in everybody's mind that the transition is done in train-wreck fashion. Hopefully they learned from prior mistakes.
we shall see...
Now... for the first time ever, there's a top 10 draft pick sitting behind him who has been really impressive and opened a lot of eyes this preseason.
So, I think there will be a lot less resistance this time around if Eli isn't playing well. I certainly won't be stunned if the fan base is calling for Jones before the decision is even made. I do think Eli is primed to have a strong year... but if he doesn't, the transition is probably going to be more 'welcomed' (if there's even a good word for it) - and understood.
The first attempt at this seemed totally haphazard and directionless. I think it'll be quite a bit more logical this time. Or at least I hope so.
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
Let's face it, he's been a crash test dummy as a whole line of people made mistakes since 2017: Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo, Gettleman, and Shurmur.
And he'll likely be called on to do it again before it's coat weather -- this time it will be his ego and not his body. I don't like watching it, and I am as critical as anyone of him.
He's got a rookie who so clearly belongs in the NFL, a team that's improving but not proven, and a coach and GM whose continued employment in the NFL is tied to the rookie not to him.
It's going to be a bummer hearing the boos, seeing the media turn, and Manning eventually holding the clipboard on his way out.
It makes most sense when a starting QB goes down injured and is out for the season and the organisation is not confident in their backup.
As it stands, Indianapolis would be be delivering a big kick in the teeth to Brissett and if I were him, I would be furious if they brought in Manning. Not going to happen, especially when you consider the difference in the two players's salaries.
Gettleman can only trade eli with Eli's blessing...
The Mahomes example is just doesn't apply because the Chiefs were a 12 win team in 2016. They were going to be in the hunt. Smith had led them to double digit wins four years in a row. And so he earned the right to continue starting.
Aside from 2016, we have been perennial losers with Eli at the helm. Yet, the excuses keep getting compounded and Eli keeps getting ushered out there. Basically there is no statute of limitations on the last SB win. If Eli was being consistently productive and leading us to Ws I could be more patient. But NONE of that exists.
Not only are we in a QB controversy, we can't help ourselves to keep challenging the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and over again...etc...
You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
With respect to trading Eli. I would obviously not want it to end like that--I love Eli, but if DJ is ready now and some team wants to compensate us for Eli (and Eli is willing to go along with it), we would have to be pretty stupid not to do it if it was good compensation. On the other hand, if DJ is not ready, then it is not even worth discussing.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
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It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it.
And you can take it a step further. There's no significant difference in year 1-2 QB's whether they start day 1, play half the games, play a couple of games or play no games and then start year 2.
That's the point I made last week until it got twisted to make it sound like no QB learns from experience. Year 1 and year 2 experience for QB's has no statistical advantage as to when they play, even if many want to say that if Jones doesn't get game experience it will retard his development. There's absolutely no data to back that up.
Yep, and the "advantageous rookie QB contract" argument also does not apply this year - we're paying Eli still.
It will apply when we are no longer paying Eli.
Look, as soon as we kept Eli on the books @ 23M this year, he was going to be the starter. If the Giants didn't intend on playing Eli and trying to win games with him, they wouldn't be paying him.
As long as NYG don't continue to send Eli out there long after it becomes evident he's not the answer; what we're doing here isn't a big deal.
Either Eli wins games and the Giants are competitive this season, or Eli takes a seat and Daniel gets the bulk of the starts.
So many of the people here didn't even want Daniel Jones at all.... not 6th, not 17th... they didn't want him.
Now, it's a tremendous issue if he doesn't play as soon as humanly possible.
Although I am starting to come around on the fact that DJ may be that exceedingly less rare QB that comes in as a rookie and plays well. There may be an argument that he can give us Eli level play.
When you step back and look at the entirety of a playing career, there's very little that points directly to experience having a huge part. While learning the difference in the speed from the college game to the pro game has to happen, it doesn't take years to master that.
If experience was such a crucial part of the game, you'd expect to see linear growth out of most players, yet the stats show otherwise. Statistically speaking, a starter in year 1-2 of a career has as much of a chance to regress in years 3-4 as they do to improve. And that continues throughout the career. WR's should hit their strides in years 4-6 if they gain the experience of route running and body positioning, but that isn't the case. Rookie RB's are as likely to have the same production in year 1 vs. years 3 or 5.
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Eli should start the season. Why? Because this team has a chance to flip the script on recent years and make the playoffs. It's a slim chance but it's there. The only way that happens is if we get off to a fast start. Eli gives this team the best chance to do that.
If and when that slim chance evaporates we'll all be ready to move on and give DJ the reins for what will hopefully be a long and successful career.
As far as the Indy scenario or any other Eli trade before this season plays out forget it. BBI can have as many 300+ post threads about it as it likes, it just isn't happening.
The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
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The idea that Jones will have his development stunted by not playing early is really borne out of one main argument - Eli needs to be replaced. It would be that much more productive if people would just come out and say it.
Which is so ironic because it's that crowd that accuses everybody else of making excuses.
if FMIC reads through this thread (which was actually a great conversation with you not around to fire bomb it), you will see that is not the case
All things equal if game experience doesn't expedite growth, and the only risk is "ruining" Jones, I don't think that applies to the Giants. They have an extraordinary RB, a veteran offensive line, a solid if not spectacular group of WRs, a speedy and versatile starting TE, and reliable blocking TE.
Gettleman has done a fine job fielding a supporting cast that doesn't mirror the typical situation a rookie QB walks into.
I'd say Jones fresher arm, better legs, and nice touch in the short to intermediate game is to his advantage.
Now imagine if the Giants would have acquired a much cheaper vet (another disproven boogie man from the offseason) to be the insurance if Jones hadn't have been ready.
@JayGlazer
Jay Gruden names Case Keenum starter, waiting for McCoy to heal, they’d like to redshirt Haskins for the year and not rush him
Guys, it's coming, relax. Whether it's later this season or 2020 Week 1, it's coming. Jones' career won't be damaged if he doesn't start until Week 1 2020. Relax.
Not you
Teams NEED 2 quality QB's.
Lauletta is completely unproven. So is Jones for that matter - yeah, looks LIGHTS OUT in preseason. It's preseason.
Like Phil Simms, Eli Manning is completely disrespected by his own fans, and like Phil Simms, he will be worshipped only when he is gone.
Teams NEED 2 quality QB's.
Lauletta is completely unproven. So is Jones for that matter - yeah, looks LIGHTS OUT in preseason. It's preseason.
Like Phil Simms, Eli Manning is completely disrespected by his own fans, and like Phil Simms, he will be worshipped only when he is gone.
I've posted this before -- in addition to the on-the-field factors -- I also would like Manning spared the indignity and circus of being replaced mid season.
I wanted Manning to be spared the physical beating and ridicule of lining up behind a ridiculously bad line last year and getting beat like bag.
We have different definitions of "worship" maybe -- I'd rather respect and appreciate the guy on the way out, and not piss on his legacy.
I think Manning has accomplished plenty enough as a Giant, has been a fabulous representative of the franchise, and made a literal fortune.
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Jay Glazer
@JayGlazer
Jay Gruden names Case Keenum starter, waiting for McCoy to heal, they’d like to redshirt Haskins for the year and not rush him
Haskins always needed a year to work on things away from live bullets. His feet are still a disgrace to the art of quarterbacking. He gets away with it because of his insane arm, but it definitely isn't sustainable in the NFL. Their offensive line is also a mess right now. I can't believe they are actually making the smart move here, but I give it till week 8 when they are 2-5 and Danny Boy wants to see his new toy.
I'm not sold because I think Brissett is going to be good.
But a case can be made to go for an Eli type. The Colts have multitude of high round picks. Can you imagine if they called and offered a 2nd or 3rd for Eli?
We'd have to take that in a NY minute - right?
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
All of the QBs drafted have talent. They are the best in the entire world. Even if they could handle it in college, most of them, when they get to the pros, cannot handle the pressure. They just crumble. Jones is a fucking rock. Think about what would have happened should he have had a shitty preseason?
Under the microscope of every decision he makes in game being scrutinized, ever throw in practice, Jones has continued to exceed expectations. We got a good one, everyone who keeps saying put on the brakes. I'm saying get real excited. He can handle intense pressure and scrutiny, he throws with accuracy, touch and anticipation.
I'm hoping Indy makes a request for Eli and we find out Mara nixed it. And it was a 2nd rounder.
This place would be on tilt... ;)
that pesky no-trade thing...
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
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that pesky no-trade thing...
yeah, kind of makes this 300 post thread moot, doesn't it?
I say Jones is ready because of the way he handled this situation in this market, with the circus surrounding the draft and the criticisms he has faced. He has ice water in his veins. He has showed, ZERO FEAR. Stage is not to big for him.
Ultimately I think that's the most impressive thing about him, and is the foundation for the physical feats that have impressed us.
First game of preseason, after weeks of being referred to as among the (if not THE) worst top ten draft pick in decades or even all time, and he plays about as perfectly as a rookie QB can in his first appearance against an opponent, with not a shred of chalance.
Second game, after discussion about whether this was a fluke, does the same thing and shakes off two negative plays that could, under other circumstances, precipitate a downward spiral.
Third game, after yet even further discussion about whether this was a fluke and after being plastered, throws some absolutely ballsy F-you tosses.
It's still early yet but we've seen this play out before. I think the guy has that proverbial IT about him, and I might just be done doubting whether he'll rise to the occasion. I think he'd do so to the absolute limits of whatever his ability happens to be at any given time, and what's more, he may actually benefit from moments of misfortune.
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
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If a situation like Indy, where they are a team essentially set up to win now, why wouldn't he at least consider it?
Of course everyone will say, well he wants to retire a Giant. Well if that's the case, then why does the Manning camp (including Archie), keep saying that hey wants to play a few more years.
Eli can certainly ride out this year and if he does want to play, have his pick in Free Agency of where to play next year. I just don't think too many opportunities are going to be out there like Indy has right now.
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
not doubting you but curious where you saw this
I know he said playing his entire career for the Giants is important to him
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In comment 14544944 Britt in VA said:
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that pesky no-trade thing...
yeah, kind of makes this 300 post thread moot, doesn't it?
Not really. Most of the posts in here that were interesting were about whether there is a QB controversy and if Giants are better off playing DJ earlier.
the Indy thing was more of a side-bar...
He’s already said he is not uprooting his family. And has stated his kids have started school and he won’t do that.
I know I asked above, but tried searching for anything related to this in google, nothing came up. Was it something he said in an interview?
I wouldn't past Mara to insist on a no trade clause in Eli's contract... ;)
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with his no trade clause contract, too bad that was allowed to happen because Eli is driving this bus now...
I wouldn't past Mara to insist on a no trade clause in Eli's contract... ;)
pretty funny
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You have to be able to separate the player from the team. Eli himself was pretty damn good in 2015. He was less of a catalyst in 2016 - but the team won 11 games and he was very sharp @ Lambeau. Us losing that game had nothing to do with him - he showed up that night. Beckham failed him and the defense really failed him.
2017 was a disaster for so many reasons. The RB group was garbage. Beckham missed most of the year. The offensive line was in shambles. The defense was awful. The coach lost the team.
How does one look at a year like that and deduce that the QB was the problem? Eli was set up to fail with a WCO coach who was clueless and didn't understand his QB's strengths. He's a pocket passer that was given zero pass protection, no running game, and had no WR's to throw to before we even hit the midway point.
2017 was quite literally an impossible scenario for him.
Last year, he actually played quite well at many different junctures. He had one of his best statistical years. But again - the offensive line was poor/average at best for most of the year and only started to gel more near the end. But again - the 2018 Giants defense was bad. The offense was league average. Not great, also not bad at all.
The idea here is to actually allow him to play football with a roster that sets him up to succeed and do the things he does well. We have an elite RB now. We have what should be at least a decent offensive line now where he won't have pass rushers breathing down his neck before he even gets off his first read.
It would be "insanity" if the Giants kept neglecting to fix the offensive line and kept setting Eli up to fail with rosters that he simply can't win with.
The FO believes he can win with this one. I still think we're an offseason away from having a good enough roster to compete for the division and playoffs - but I'd be willing to bet that Eli is quite a bit better than many people think he'll be.
If he's not, we're now prepared for that. We don't have to bellyache over punting on the 2018 QB class anymore. The QB is here, and he will play when his time comes.
It's simply unprovable that Jones is going to be negatively impacted if he plays in 8 games rather than 12 or whatever ~4-5 game difference you want to create. I really don't think it matters much at all - it's a point being belabored with no real data to support it. [/quote]
Good post. My prediction is Eli plays really well this year, they are in contention or make playoffs and Eli plays for a team like the Colts next year because he has proven he can still play but the Giants want to start a new chapter.