6 of the last 7 years. Would anyone really be stunned if they go 5-11 this year?
I think the Giants are going to actually get off to a decent start and then hit a wall and drop games mid season. And at some point in the final 4-5 games they will sit Eli for Jones. And I could see a 6-10 or 7-9 season.
I still maintain, the Giants are building to make noise in 2020. So long as the arrow is pointing up at the end of the season and we see Jones in live bullets before the year ends, and the key guys stay healthy, with another draft and cap room, this is a playoff team next year.
I don't really have an issue with anyone who looks at the 2019 Giants and sees a 5 or 6 win team... that's fine.
I just don't like continually hearing the logic that is essentially "well, the Giants have been bad... so they are bad until they aren't" when we know the NFL doesn't work that way.
What can we really take away from even 2 years ago?
Jerry Reese was the GM. Ben McAdoo was the HC. Barkley wasn't here. Beckham was - and missed like 3/4 of the season anyway. There was no Daniel Jones here. Collins was here. Snacks was here. Vernon was here. All players who were traded or let go of.
The roster is so different now. The team is so different now. I just don't feel like there's any carryover anymore.
2018 ---> 2019, sure I can buy some takeaways. At least it's the same coach and there are more commonalities.
I just think too much of this analysis is with prior seasons in mind. And those seasons have such little impact on now and forward.
Things change really quickly in this league.
I think 2020 is the target for us - I've maintained that for a while and that hasn't changed. But I'm hard pressed to buy that this team won't improve at all in the win column between now and then.
7-8 wins is entirely realistic for this group if we can avoid the crushing injury/injuries.
"The Giants are not in the position to win games Â
Lost most of its games by small margins, plays an easier schedule this year, and has improved its roster would have the same record... but maybe I guess.
Many BBIers have predicted the same record, as have most pundits (give or take a game or two). I do think he's right when he says this year is all about development. I've said the same thing, myself.
But that was just wacky. Yes, they might go 5-11, but it won't be because of his flawed reasoning.
1. The Giants have a crappy OL?
That just shows he's hasn't been paying attention, and doesn't seem aware that it's completely rebuilt, and hopefully won't be bad anymore. He lost me right there.
2. Jones has better arm strength than Manning?
Really? That's the exact opposite of everything that has been said since the draft. Everyone (outside NFL circles) QUESTIONED Jones' arm strength. It seems to be absolutely fine, but no one questioned Eli's arm strength as the #1 prospect of his draft. And even if you believe there's a fall off in Eli's arm (I don't, personally), the reports out of camp from coaches, players, press, and observers, are pretty universal is that Eli's arm is as least as strong as ever. So something's off with this opinion, too.
3. The Giants are rebuilding, and shouldn't try to win games.
That may be the silliest thing anyone's ever said about ANY team, and doesn't require further comment.
But that was just wacky. Yes, they might go 5-11, but it won't be because of his flawed reasoning.
1. The Giants have a crappy OL?
That just shows he's hasn't been paying attention, and doesn't seem aware that it's completely rebuilt, and hopefully won't be bad anymore. He lost me right there.
2. Jones has better arm strength than Manning?
Really? That's the exact opposite of everything that has been said since the draft. Everyone (outside NFL circles) QUESTIONED Jones' arm strength. It seems to be absolutely fine, but no one questioned Eli's arm strength as the #1 prospect of his draft. And even if you believe there's a fall off in Eli's arm (I don't, personally), the reports out of camp from coaches, players, press, and observers, are pretty universal is that Eli's arm is as least as strong as ever. So something's off with this opinion, too.
3. The Giants are rebuilding, and shouldn't try to win games.
That may be the silliest thing anyone's ever said about ANY team, and doesn't require further comment.
I know we made efforts to upgrade that OL, but the starters looked really bad in that Bengals game and it concerns me.
Listen 8-8 is for an optimistic fan.
3 wins in 17 - Net Barkley, Hill and Carter (foundational pieces)
5 wins in 18 - Net Jones , Lawrence and Baker and other promising players.
SOS as a 3 win team didn't have a huge impact on their year in 18. This team is clearly not in the top 2 NFC East teams. i don't think it's debatable - at least not on paper.
Sure things can happen like: 1) Wentz misses signficant time 2) Ditto for Cooper but those 2 teams are pretty deep with star talent compared to our team.
Bottom line: 8-8 is a success to me. 7-9 won't be a disappointment. anything below 7-9 means Jones should see at least 6 starts this season and at that point I don't care about the record for this year, I care about the future. Anything over 8-8 would be a surprise.
Gettleman didn't tear down the team in year one instead of half assing it. the first year of 'rebuild' didn't do much rebuilding and was a waste in terms of pointing the needle in the right direction.
I'm cautiously optimistic and hopeful but unti they do it... Â
this is fair comment. But, in the final analysis, this is just more B.S. These guys don't know...the guys who report on NFLN don't know nor does anyone else. You have to go out and prove it, every Sunday...it is the beauty of sport. Your records says what you are...it's really simple.
I just don't like continually hearing the logic that is essentially "well, the Giants have been bad... so they are bad until they aren't" when we know the NFL doesn't work that way.
But that view is less about some sort of superstitious surrender to the patterns of the past, and more about recognizing that some of the elements that contributed to losing seasons seem to still remain.
Is Shurmur any closer to becoming an above average head coach? Have we upgraded our defense or has it actually deteriorated? Is our offensive line going to be substantially better or merely incrementally? Can our receivers easily be countered and negated by your average NFL defense? Will our special teams still chug along as a typical, uneventful special teams unit 19 times out of 20, but make a catastrophic mistake that 20th time?
BTW am I paranoid or does everyone seem to love taking shots @ NYG? Â
I just don't like continually hearing the logic that is essentially "well, the Giants have been bad... so they are bad until they aren't" when we know the NFL doesn't work that way.
But that view is less about some sort of superstitious surrender to the patterns of the past, and more about recognizing that some of the elements that contributed to losing seasons seem to still remain.
Is Shurmur any closer to becoming an above average head coach? Have we upgraded our defense or has it actually deteriorated? Is our offensive line going to be substantially better or merely incrementally? Can our receivers easily be countered and negated by your average NFL defense? Will our special teams still chug along as a typical, uneventful special teams unit 19 times out of 20, but make a catastrophic mistake that 20th time?
Those questions should all be focused entirely on now. Not the past.
It doesn't matter what the Giants were in 2017 because virtually nothing from that season is still here now.
Why should a Ben McAdoo season with an offensive line featuring Ereck Flowers, John Jerry, Weston Richburg, Bobby Hart and Justin Pugh have anything to do with this season?
None of these people are here anymore. Why should there be any carryover?
It's fine to ask if the problems have been solved, but I'm not sure why we're discussing past iterations of the Giants when there's close to zero overlap in not only personnel, but also the coach, GM, and positional coaches.
So, is the consensus then that we haven't improved?
I get that they base it on who we've lost (in part, the rest of it I assume reflects their highly exaggerated negative opinion of our starting QB). But, that's because they like the back of baseball cards and throwing their skivvies on the stage at celebrities. The reality is that those names were virtual non-contributors to the best parts of our season last year. With the possible exception of Landon, who we replaced at pretty much a wash in talent. But, we are the same in most areas and markedly improved in key areas (e.g., OL and Defensive backfield).
So, couldn't they give us at least one win in improvement?
That could totally happen. Especially if things are going badly enough that Jones is starting, and they get his rookie growing pains out of the way in 2019.
But they'll do what they do. Nobody knows the future.
Before the draft he wasn't a big fan as I recall. Then after he was picked at 6 he defended the Giants on the pick and said he liked him but didn't love him kind of review. To me it was somewhat confusing but at least he saw some good qualities and at least defended the pick.
Before the draft he wasn't a big fan as I recall. Then after he was picked at 6 he defended the Giants on the pick and said he liked him but didn't love him kind of review. To me it was somewhat confusing but at least he saw some good qualities and at least defended the pick.
Fwiw, iirc he did say that early (if I'm recalling the right vid). I think it was b4 the draft, it was a well done vid overall, thought he was on the "solid, steady but not spectacular" train...no wow throws but checks most of the boxes
You guys can knock this dude all you want, but he knows the Â
game and is much better than the hot take bullshit that permeates media now. 5-11 is a little harsh, but we have a completely unproven defense and will more than likely be starting a rookie QB half the season. I think we win 7 games this year because the schedule is pretty easy as far as opponents and travel.
Bill L....every team in the NFL has "improved" with the exception Â
some items we can expect.
- opposing defense has been looking at tape of Barkley, will be much harder for him
- our QB situation is a disaster, making bets on aging Eli. We drafted a #1, get him on the field. We are not winning a SB with this unit, why waste time with Eli?
- our defense looks scary and disorganized.
- our receiving crew lacks a play maker. Don't need Beckham for that but we have nothing that is average for the NFL
and Shomler predicts the same record versus an easier schedule. That says to me that he thinks that we are *worse* than last year.
We are better at QB, just by having more comfort and experience in the offensive scheme. Also, by allowing for more time and security in the pocket. Due to...
We are markedly, if not logarithmically, better at the OL.
We are likely better at RB with more growth and experience and greater usage of the featured back. Depth is the same.
We are the same or even better at TE. Better if we take into account greater usage.
We are lesser in terms of name WR. But equal to last year if we look at the "better" team (the second half team).
We are likely equal in DL, even if we are equal to not very good. Vernon was a high talent, minimal contributory player.
Pretty much the same LB with some growth from Carter.
We are markedly, if not logarithmically, better at the OL.
Same Special teams.
Not even one game better than last season?
Not unreasonable take I generally like his commentary . Â
and Vernon. People like to make a big deal about the offensive line in the first half of the season, but the pash rush was atrocious when Vernon was out. It was comical how long QB's had to set up before he came back.
We got rid of Odell, in my opinion it was the right move. For both teams. I think it was one of those trades that was equally beneficial for both, it isn't a zero sum game like some like to believe.
RE: Bill....We got rid of an elite WR, the best run stuffer in the game, Â
and Vernon. People like to make a big deal about the offensive line in the first half of the season, but the pash rush was atrocious when Vernon was out. It was comical how long QB's had to set up before he came back.
We got rid of Odell, in my opinion it was the right move. For both teams. I think it was one of those trades that was equally beneficial for both, it isn't a zero sum game like some like to believe.
I liked OV a lot too and wasn't happy losing him but having Zeitler is perfect for Saquan
I never said I liked OV....he was massively overpaid, but he was Â
well 30 sacks was 2nd lowest so there isn't much room to go down, but unless we get a bunch from Peppers and CB blitzes, I dont see it going up much.
Side note, Oak had a team total of 13 sacks last year....ooof
But if it goes up, then that's one more area of improvement. So, I'm still questioning how you get to the same record as last year, basically saying we made no improvements at all.
I think the Giants are going to actually get off to a decent start and then hit a wall and drop games mid season. And at some point in the final 4-5 games they will sit Eli for Jones. And I could see a 6-10 or 7-9 season.
I still maintain, the Giants are building to make noise in 2020. So long as the arrow is pointing up at the end of the season and we see Jones in live bullets before the year ends, and the key guys stay healthy, with another draft and cap room, this is a playoff team next year.
Just a YouTuber/podcaster whose videos made the rounds here before the draft, like Brett Kollmanns or Matt Waldman's.
I believe he got buzz for defending Eli
I just don't like continually hearing the logic that is essentially "well, the Giants have been bad... so they are bad until they aren't" when we know the NFL doesn't work that way.
What can we really take away from even 2 years ago?
Jerry Reese was the GM. Ben McAdoo was the HC. Barkley wasn't here. Beckham was - and missed like 3/4 of the season anyway. There was no Daniel Jones here. Collins was here. Snacks was here. Vernon was here. All players who were traded or let go of.
The roster is so different now. The team is so different now. I just don't feel like there's any carryover anymore.
2018 ---> 2019, sure I can buy some takeaways. At least it's the same coach and there are more commonalities.
I just think too much of this analysis is with prior seasons in mind. And those seasons have such little impact on now and forward.
Things change really quickly in this league.
I think 2020 is the target for us - I've maintained that for a while and that hasn't changed. But I'm hard pressed to buy that this team won't improve at all in the win column between now and then.
7-8 wins is entirely realistic for this group if we can avoid the crushing injury/injuries.
I like this guy, but that is just a stupid thing to say
1. The Giants have a crappy OL?
That just shows he's hasn't been paying attention, and doesn't seem aware that it's completely rebuilt, and hopefully won't be bad anymore. He lost me right there.
2. Jones has better arm strength than Manning?
Really? That's the exact opposite of everything that has been said since the draft. Everyone (outside NFL circles) QUESTIONED Jones' arm strength. It seems to be absolutely fine, but no one questioned Eli's arm strength as the #1 prospect of his draft. And even if you believe there's a fall off in Eli's arm (I don't, personally), the reports out of camp from coaches, players, press, and observers, are pretty universal is that Eli's arm is as least as strong as ever. So something's off with this opinion, too.
3. The Giants are rebuilding, and shouldn't try to win games.
That may be the silliest thing anyone's ever said about ANY team, and doesn't require further comment.
1. The Giants have a crappy OL?
That just shows he's hasn't been paying attention, and doesn't seem aware that it's completely rebuilt, and hopefully won't be bad anymore. He lost me right there.
2. Jones has better arm strength than Manning?
Really? That's the exact opposite of everything that has been said since the draft. Everyone (outside NFL circles) QUESTIONED Jones' arm strength. It seems to be absolutely fine, but no one questioned Eli's arm strength as the #1 prospect of his draft. And even if you believe there's a fall off in Eli's arm (I don't, personally), the reports out of camp from coaches, players, press, and observers, are pretty universal is that Eli's arm is as least as strong as ever. So something's off with this opinion, too.
3. The Giants are rebuilding, and shouldn't try to win games.
That may be the silliest thing anyone's ever said about ANY team, and doesn't require further comment.
I know we made efforts to upgrade that OL, but the starters looked really bad in that Bengals game and it concerns me.
3 wins in 17 - Net Barkley, Hill and Carter (foundational pieces)
5 wins in 18 - Net Jones , Lawrence and Baker and other promising players.
SOS as a 3 win team didn't have a huge impact on their year in 18. This team is clearly not in the top 2 NFC East teams. i don't think it's debatable - at least not on paper.
Sure things can happen like: 1) Wentz misses signficant time 2) Ditto for Cooper but those 2 teams are pretty deep with star talent compared to our team.
Bottom line: 8-8 is a success to me. 7-9 won't be a disappointment. anything below 7-9 means Jones should see at least 6 starts this season and at that point I don't care about the record for this year, I care about the future. Anything over 8-8 would be a surprise.
I just don't like continually hearing the logic that is essentially "well, the Giants have been bad... so they are bad until they aren't" when we know the NFL doesn't work that way.
But that view is less about some sort of superstitious surrender to the patterns of the past, and more about recognizing that some of the elements that contributed to losing seasons seem to still remain.
Is Shurmur any closer to becoming an above average head coach? Have we upgraded our defense or has it actually deteriorated? Is our offensive line going to be substantially better or merely incrementally? Can our receivers easily be countered and negated by your average NFL defense? Will our special teams still chug along as a typical, uneventful special teams unit 19 times out of 20, but make a catastrophic mistake that 20th time?
The outrage and bashing of the Jones pick as an example vs. the strong play in the preseason didn't seem to get close to the same attention.
Anyone us feel like it's us against the world?
Quote:
I just don't like continually hearing the logic that is essentially "well, the Giants have been bad... so they are bad until they aren't" when we know the NFL doesn't work that way.
But that view is less about some sort of superstitious surrender to the patterns of the past, and more about recognizing that some of the elements that contributed to losing seasons seem to still remain.
Is Shurmur any closer to becoming an above average head coach? Have we upgraded our defense or has it actually deteriorated? Is our offensive line going to be substantially better or merely incrementally? Can our receivers easily be countered and negated by your average NFL defense? Will our special teams still chug along as a typical, uneventful special teams unit 19 times out of 20, but make a catastrophic mistake that 20th time?
Those questions should all be focused entirely on now. Not the past.
It doesn't matter what the Giants were in 2017 because virtually nothing from that season is still here now.
Why should a Ben McAdoo season with an offensive line featuring Ereck Flowers, John Jerry, Weston Richburg, Bobby Hart and Justin Pugh have anything to do with this season?
None of these people are here anymore. Why should there be any carryover?
It's fine to ask if the problems have been solved, but I'm not sure why we're discussing past iterations of the Giants when there's close to zero overlap in not only personnel, but also the coach, GM, and positional coaches.
It's basically entirely irrelevant.
I get that they base it on who we've lost (in part, the rest of it I assume reflects their highly exaggerated negative opinion of our starting QB). But, that's because they like the back of baseball cards and throwing their skivvies on the stage at celebrities. The reality is that those names were virtual non-contributors to the best parts of our season last year. With the possible exception of Landon, who we replaced at pretty much a wash in talent. But, we are the same in most areas and markedly improved in key areas (e.g., OL and Defensive backfield).
So, couldn't they give us at least one win in improvement?
But they'll do what they do. Nobody knows the future.
Because it's going to be on the Final, 50% of your grade.
Fwiw, iirc he did say that early (if I'm recalling the right vid). I think it was b4 the draft, it was a well done vid overall, thought he was on the "solid, steady but not spectacular" train...no wow throws but checks most of the boxes
- opposing defense has been looking at tape of Barkley, will be much harder for him
- our QB situation is a disaster, making bets on aging Eli. We drafted a #1, get him on the field. We are not winning a SB with this unit, why waste time with Eli?
- our defense looks scary and disorganized.
- our receiving crew lacks a play maker. Don't need Beckham for that but we have nothing that is average for the NFL
rebuild underway
I guess I just don't see the "lot" in talent that we gave away. Or maybe I would focus more on "contribution" instead.
We are better at QB, just by having more comfort and experience in the offensive scheme. Also, by allowing for more time and security in the pocket. Due to...
We are markedly, if not logarithmically, better at the OL.
We are likely better at RB with more growth and experience and greater usage of the featured back. Depth is the same.
We are the same or even better at TE. Better if we take into account greater usage.
We are lesser in terms of name WR. But equal to last year if we look at the "better" team (the second half team).
We are likely equal in DL, even if we are equal to not very good. Vernon was a high talent, minimal contributory player.
Pretty much the same LB with some growth from Carter.
We are markedly, if not logarithmically, better at the OL.
Same Special teams.
Not even one game better than last season?
so now it's time to prove it .
We got rid of Odell, in my opinion it was the right move. For both teams. I think it was one of those trades that was equally beneficial for both, it isn't a zero sum game like some like to believe.
We got rid of Odell, in my opinion it was the right move. For both teams. I think it was one of those trades that was equally beneficial for both, it isn't a zero sum game like some like to believe.
I liked OV a lot too and wasn't happy losing him but having Zeitler is perfect for Saquan
vernon was our leading sacker last year, and doubled the next guy in qb hits
well 30 sacks was 2nd lowest so there isn't much room to go down, but unless we get a bunch from Peppers and CB blitzes, I dont see it going up much.
Side note, Oak had a team total of 13 sacks last year....ooof
Quote:
this year.
well 30 sacks was 2nd lowest so there isn't much room to go down, but unless we get a bunch from Peppers and CB blitzes, I dont see it going up much.
Side note, Oak had a team total of 13 sacks last year....ooof
But if it goes up, then that's one more area of improvement. So, I'm still questioning how you get to the same record as last year, basically saying we made no improvements at all.