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Giants restructure Solder contract

CMicks3110 : 9/7/2019 7:35 am
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RE: RE: Eagles  
DonQuixote : 9/7/2019 4:48 pm : link
In comment 14562641 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.

I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.


It is true that the Eagles and Cowboys drafted better and that percolates into not having to overpay in FA. I don't think anyone suggests otherwise.

Maybe Solder was overpaid, but maybe not by so much that they can find someone better for less until some draft pick next year is ready to replace him. But that is a maybe and takes time to play out. With that, he's not getting cut this year or likely next, so restructure. I am not seeing the big fuss.

Who would not agree that Lauletta was a waste of a pick, or Webb, or Flowers ... nobody disputes that. We don't need to tilt at windmills...

You make the point as to why we have sucked, fair, and the only relevant thing is whether we are making smart decisions. You think this is a stupid one, I thing it is just not that big of a deal.

I think the extension of Solder, with no other plausible plan in place, is not bad for a year or two as you try to turn things around. By that time, the dollars lost down the road are just not going to be a factor.




The word that comes to mind  
.McL. : 9/7/2019 4:49 pm : link
for what DG must have felt...

DESPERATION...

When you are desperate, you over pay.
RE: Klaatu  
Klaatu : 9/7/2019 4:53 pm : link
In comment 14562642 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.


I'd rather comb my hair with a cheese-grater while I chew on tinfoil.

Anyway...I really wanted Aaron Donald that year, would've been happy with Zack Martin. I can kind of understand why Reese picked OBJ, though...kind of.

As I said, I liked Richburg, and it's no secret that I liked Jay Bromley, too. I thought he looked very good at the East-West game, and figured he'd be a nice consolation prize after not getting Donald. Most thought he was was a big reach, and in retrospect he probably was, but I loved his backstory, and there were a few others here who thought he'd at least turn into a capable role-player. Can't get 'em all right.

As for rest, weii, eesh. But a couple are still in the league...Kennard had a good year for Detroit last year.
RE: RE: Nothing gives BBI the vapors  
djm : 9/7/2019 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14562243 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14562240 djm said:


Quote:


Like a nice juicy restructure.

Right, the giants would be better off without solder.

Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.

Heís an ok LT making a lot of money. Itís not the end of the world.



A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.


Fans can be kinda dumb. The only reason why fans didnít like Vernon was because of the contract. The only reason this thread is so active is because solder makes a lot of money. If youíd rather not have solder here this season is shit and shot before it starts. Heís a great locker room presence and wonít torpedo the season with his play. But he makes a lot of money. So what? They all do. Would you feel better if solder made 2-3 million less annually. Would that even make much of a difference.

Itís a weird obsession. Sometimes I get it, but cmon people. Deal with it.
RE: ...  
section125 : 9/7/2019 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14562067 christian said:
Quote:
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.

If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.


BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.
RE: RE: Eagles  
WillVAB : 9/7/2019 5:10 pm : link
In comment 14562641 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.

I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.


Exactly, they draft better. Thatís the crux of the issue and why the Giants are in the position theyíre in ó not only from a W-L perspective but from a cap perspective.

When you draft poorly you have money to burn in FA. Or you end up extending marginal players you drafted.
RE: RE: Eagles  
WillVAB : 9/7/2019 5:15 pm : link
In comment 14562619 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.


The Eagles are in a playoff window and don't have the 4th lowest paid roster this season - that's what makes this frustrating. It's like Gettleman set out to pay off all his credit card debt and then immediately took a cash advance as soon as the payment posted to his account.


He didnít give Solder a raise. Thereís no new money. If the contract is going to be paid out, which it certainly looks that way given the depth behind him, it doesnít matter.

This is a non-issue. The Giants will be operating with a clean slate next year and a ton of cap space.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 9/7/2019 5:22 pm : link
In comment 14562685 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14562067 christian said:


Quote:


It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.

If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.



BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.


So, in your opinion Nate Solder played well or did not play well last year?

It Nate Solder plays equal to the player he was last last year -- he is or is not worth 19.5M in 2020?

Also keep in mind it will be his 10th year in the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: Nothing gives BBI the vapors  
christian : 9/7/2019 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14562684 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14562243 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 14562240 djm said:


Quote:


Like a nice juicy restructure.

Right, the giants would be better off without solder.

Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.

Heís an ok LT making a lot of money. Itís not the end of the world.



A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.



Fans can be kinda dumb. The only reason why fans didnít like Vernon was because of the contract. The only reason this thread is so active is because solder makes a lot of money.


Unequivocally untrue -- plenty of fans disliked Vernon's value because he was paid at a much higher rate than his value.

No matter how many times you repeat that value, allocation of resources, and cap space don't matter -- it doesn't make it true.

I'm thrilled Zeitler makes a lot of money he's really good. I'm glad Barkley makes a lot of money, he's fantastic. I hope Engram has a dynamite season and gets a big extension, he's super talented. I'm glad Shepard got a nice raise, he's a really reliable good player.
RE: Klaatu  
yatqb : 9/7/2019 5:31 pm : link
In comment 14562642 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.


Like Klaatu, I wanted Donald or Zach Martin in that draft. Either would have been the type of trench pick the Giants have needed for a while. That said, OBJ did bring us both wins and some trade value when his time ran out with us.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/7/2019 5:34 pm : link
In comment 14562735 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14562685 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14562067 christian said:


Quote:


It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.

If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.



BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.



So, in your opinion Nate Solder played well or did not play well last year?

It Nate Solder plays equal to the player he was last last year -- he is or is not worth 19.5M in 2020?



That would be a "not"
RE: RE: RE: ...  
section125 : 9/7/2019 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14562735 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14562685 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14562067 christian said:


Quote:


It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.

If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.



BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.



So, in your opinion Nate Solder played well or did not play well last year?

It Nate Solder plays equal to the player he was last last year -- he is or is not worth 19.5M in 2020?

Also keep in mind it will be his 10th year in the NFL.


After the neck injury (8th game /-) he played well.
I do not get this entire thread and responses  
George from PA : 9/7/2019 6:08 pm : link
Restructure is nothing.....as next year cap room is super deep.

Sure, Solder contract is not ideal, but any other option that does not include a competent LT would be a disaster.

Sure,we can rehash the decade long Reese and Ross poor drafting....and some of DG moves that has not worked,

But something can be said and admired by his decisivness of cutting bait on his bad deals.

2 strong drafts and arrow pointing up....

Yes, more work is needed and next year, they start with a pretty clean slate
RE: the big problem with Solder last year  
GeofromNJ : 9/7/2019 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14562490 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
was that when guys rush to the outside, he takes them behind the QB, and allows the QB to step up. However, with the interior jailbreaks last season (particularly in the first half), the pocket was always being pushed back instantly. So the QB had nowhere to step up and instead was retreating into Solder's blocking area. With a competent o-line, his play should be fine - not perfect but more than adequate.

Good observation. Halapio, Zeitler, and an improved Hernandez should be able to hold the middle.
RE: Eagles  
Rjanyg : 9/7/2019 10:23 pm : link
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.


Amen
RE: RE: Eagles  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/7/2019 11:29 pm : link
In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Amen

That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 12:05 am : link
In comment 14563078 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Amen


That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.

Exactly right GD.

What we did was mortgage 5 mil out of our cap over the next 2 years.

And while that's not a huge amount, its these little bits here, and a little bit there. And suddenly you have 40 million that is constantly getting pushed every year, and as you push, you increase the likelihood that some of it becomes dead cap money. And before you know we are pushing 40 mil into next year and have 30 mil dead cap space. That is how we go into this mess with Reese & Co.
RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
WillVAB : 9/8/2019 12:08 am : link
In comment 14563078 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Amen


That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.


Wrong.

The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isnít a consideration because thereís no one in the pipeline.

This is why they used to restructure Eliís deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.

Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 12:27 am : link
In comment 14563092 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14563078 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Amen


That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.



Wrong.

The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isnít a consideration because thereís no one in the pipeline.

This is why they used to restructure Eliís deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.

Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.

Look, if you insist on displaying your inability to grasp the nuances of the salary cap, I'm happy to play the heel.

The Giants took $5M of cap space that was due to count this season and kicked half of it into each of the next two years. They literally borrowed cap space from the future to cover their anticipated in-season cap activity this year.

Converting salary to bonus in a vacuum is neither good nor bad, but when you do it in the middle of a rebuild because you overestimated your ability to absorb dead money, that's fundamentally the way that teams that are irresponsible with their cap operate.

If that's difficult for you to understand, please give me your address - I'll send you some crayons.

Oh, and they only ever restructured Eli's contract once, throughout his entire career, so I'm not sure where you got "from time to time."

Let me know if there's a brand you prefer besides Crayola.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 12:37 am : link
In comment 14563092 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14563078 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Amen


That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.



Wrong.

The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isnít a consideration because thereís no one in the pipeline.

This is why they used to restructure Eliís deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.

Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.


WV, yes and no.

The problem is that when you convert salary to bonus the cap hit gets spread across the remaining years of the contract (including the current year). This means that instead of the cap hit for ALL of his salary being taken this year, some is taken for the next two years.

This means that the available cap space is less in those two years. In this case, the Giants had about 62.5 million projected cap space next year. With this move they now have 60 million. If they end up signing players and taking and additional 60 million cap hit because of those signings, then they will have to restructure something again freeing up a little operating room.

That means mayber another 2.5 million pushed to the next 2 seasons. But the 2021 is already carrying an extra 2.5 million from this years restructure. So now the 2021 season is carrying an extra 5 million. As the years go by, you push more and more forward into the next year. Eventually you wind up in a permanent sliding cap hell, which is what we had under Reese.

Pushing money into the future is never a good thing, whether they play out the contract or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
WillVAB : 9/8/2019 12:42 am : link
In comment 14563099 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14563092 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14563078 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.

Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?

The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Letís be honest ó thereís no one in the pipeline so heís going to be playing out his contract. This shouldnít be a 5 pa

ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.



Amen


That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.



Wrong.

The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isnít a consideration because thereís no one in the pipeline.

This is why they used to restructure Eliís deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.

Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.


Look, if you insist on displaying your inability to grasp the nuances of the salary cap, I'm happy to play the heel.

The Giants took $5M of cap space that was due to count this season and kicked half of it into each of the next two years. They literally borrowed cap space from the future to cover their anticipated in-season cap activity this year.

Converting salary to bonus in a vacuum is neither good nor bad, but when you do it in the middle of a rebuild because you overestimated your ability to absorb dead money, that's fundamentally the way that teams that are irresponsible with their cap operate.

If that's difficult for you to understand, please give me your address - I'll send you some crayons.

Oh, and they only ever restructured Eli's contract once, throughout his entire career, so I'm not sure where you got "from time to time."

Let me know if there's a brand you prefer besides Crayola.


Again, wrong. Solderís cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.

The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.

Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.

Youíre engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.

The Giants didnít add 5 mil to Solderís cap hit. They didnít lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they wouldíve.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 12:58 am : link
In comment 14563104 WillVAB said:
Quote:

Again, wrong. Solderís cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.

The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.

Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.

Youíre engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.

The Giants didnít add 5 mil to Solderís cap hit. They didnít lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they wouldíve.

Sorry WV, now you are flat out wrong.

Did you read my post above?

The moved 5 million of THIS year's cap hit to the next 2 years. So now Solder's cap hit next year is 2.5 million more, as is the year after that.

The sum of all his money didn't change, but the year in which the team takes the cap hit most definitely did change.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Eagles  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 1:01 am : link
In comment 14563110 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14563104 WillVAB said:


Quote:



Again, wrong. Solderís cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.

The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.

Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.

Youíre engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.

The Giants didnít add 5 mil to Solderís cap hit. They didnít lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they wouldíve.


Sorry WV, now you are flat out wrong.

Did you read my post above?

The moved 5 million of THIS year's cap hit to the next 2 years. So now Solder's cap hit next year is 2.5 million more, as is the year after that.

The sum of all his money didn't change, but the year in which the team takes the cap hit most definitely did change.


The issue is not just if he gets injured (which is the worst case scenario). Pushing the cap hit off to the next year is like a snow plow pushing snow. Push too much and it just keeps building up in front of the plow until you can't push it any more.
Gatorade and McL  
WillVAB : 9/8/2019 1:02 am : link
Actually youíre right, Iím wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.

We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I donít think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.

The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If thatís the only bad contract weíre in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
RE: Gatorade and McL  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 1:13 am : link
In comment 14563113 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Actually youíre right, Iím wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.

We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I donít think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.

The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If thatís the only bad contract weíre in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.

If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.

But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.

Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.

But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
There are few other ugly contracts  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 1:15 am : link
As I posted earlier

Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Bottomline, this year should be last year with poor cap mgt.  
George from PA : 9/8/2019 4:05 am : link
Unless, DG signs FAs next year like a drunken sailor....

Our cap will be extremely manageable for the foreseeable future.....period.

This current 2.5 mil add for the next 2 years is nothing...comparabily to eating OBJ, Vernon, Snacks etc.

But then again, I would have kept Snacks and teamed him up with Lawrence....but that is a differenet discussion.
RE: giants#1  
Breaker : 9/8/2019 8:21 am : link
In comment 14562180 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?


Really hard to be in a good cap position when you don't draft well. Begins with that. Having to sign free agents when you already have drafted poorly at the same position. Kills your cap space.
RE: RE: Gatorade and McL  
WillVAB : 9/8/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14563114 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14563113 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Actually youíre right, Iím wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.

We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I donít think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.

The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If thatís the only bad contract weíre in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.


If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.

But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.

Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.

But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.


I think the problem with front loading deals is that it makes the player more likely to hold out for a raise on the backend. This happened with Osi. They only see what their paycheck is going to be, not what theyíve already been paid.
RE: RE: RE: Gatorade and McL  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 10:20 am : link
In comment 14563279 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14563114 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14563113 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Actually youíre right, Iím wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.

We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I donít think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.

The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If thatís the only bad contract weíre in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.


If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.

But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.

Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.

But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.



I think the problem with front loading deals is that it makes the player more likely to hold out for a raise on the backend. This happened with Osi. They only see what their paycheck is going to be, not what theyíve already been paid.

This is a great point, which does lead to a careful balance between managing your cap in the present and future in a responsible manner while also keeping a carrot in front of players who need that to stay focused and motivated.
...  
christian : 9/8/2019 10:23 am : link
Drafting well is only part of it. Of course you'd like a stable of young, high character, cheap players. But realistically and statistically a good draft nets 3 starters.

Over a competitive window you'll need to draft well and then sign your own and other UFAs. Those good players you drafted can cost as much as players from other teams. Every bad dollar spent, is money you don't have.

Fans act like a team can control who becomes available or what resources the competition has -- you can't. That's why saving every dollar you can is crucial.

Lots of fans are all excited about this coming UFA season because Giants have 62M. But who's available? How much does the competition have? Look that up, and you might be less excited.

Hint, the Giants would be way better positioned with more money.

General management requires consistency in philosophy. Good GMs pick guys who fit the tactical and character goals of the team AND don't go over slot for them.

The last 2 GMs have made cardinal sins:

1) Reese gave up financial and character prudence because Mara gave him the fix it or else ultimatum

2) Gettleman overpaid to try and stabilize the team and fix the locker room, and has overpaid for good guys who are average players
Annual Cap is big enough to make some free agent splashes  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2019 10:50 am : link
and deal with injuries. It is not big enough to overcome years of bad drafting in combination with the two other items.

We all know, DG inherited a wealth of issues and we are digging out of them. Still some really big holes to fix and a team that has got to start finding its way in the NFL and particularly within the division.

Easier to see Giants playing better this versus playing well.

The biggest topic on our horizon as fans is the transition of the QB...

...  
christian : 9/8/2019 11:01 am : link
Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.

They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.

If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.

As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2019 11:48 am : link
In comment 14563367 christian said:
Quote:
Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.

They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.

If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.

As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.


that is an eye-rolling figure...
RE: ...  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14563367 christian said:
Quote:
Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.

They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.

If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.

As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.

Agreed, and to your point above. Having, now, 60 million against the cap next year, puts the Giants in the middle of the pack, league average is about 56 million.
RE: There are few other ugly contracts  
PEEJ : 9/8/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14563115 .McL. said:
Quote:
As I posted earlier

Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins


Chances are that Tate may be the only one left standing. All of these guys have targets on their backs
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 9/8/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14563411 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14563367 christian said:


Quote:


Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.

They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.

If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.

As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.


Agreed, and to your point above. Having, now, 60 million against the cap next year, puts the Giants in the middle of the pack, league average is about 56 million.


Yup -- importantly it's 60M out of 1.7B in open space.

The Giants are an average team with average cap space.

The idea they can be cavalier with any of their resources is one of the truly hilarious and flat out wrong takes by fans.

The Giants need to be much, much better at allocating money.

They aren't going to be picking in the top 10 next year, and they don't have any more good players to trade.

Gettleman must make every dollar count.
If Amari Cooper has his way with J Jenkins later today  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2019 12:11 pm : link
christian will not take it quietly...
RE: If Amari Cooper has his way with J Jenkins later today  
christian : 9/8/2019 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14563430 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
christian will not take it quietly...


I promise to just scream in a couch pillow and not subject you guys to my anger.
Not sure why this really matters.  
Big Blue '56 : 9/8/2019 12:22 pm : link
All teams incur dead money hits and in this case, UNLESS DG MAKES THIS A TREND, not a concern at all..Weíll be fine (great?) with the cap moving forward
RE: Not sure why this really matters.  
christian : 9/8/2019 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14563446 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
All teams incur dead money hits and in this case, UNLESS DG MAKES THIS A TREND, not a concern at all..Weíll be fine (great?) with the cap moving forward


The Giants aren't all teams -- they have operated with substantial dead money this and last year to the tune of 77M dollars. For arguments sake let's put that 100% on Reese. And the reason was bad contracts, right?

So next year, the unequivocal reality is the Giants aren't in great cap shape, they are in average cap shape.

Is Solder a good contract? Forget about why he was signed and any justifications, just simply is he under a good contract?

And again for arguments sake say 32-year-old Nate Solder going into his 10th year in the NFL, has shown signs of slipping for 2 straight years (same exact age David Diehl fell apart) -- and the Giants decide 19.5M is not just a bad value, but an unacceptable value.

The Giants are left eating 13.5M to save 6M. Seems a lot like what Gettleman was doing to clean up for Reese to me.
RE: RE: There are few other ugly contracts  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14563420 PEEJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14563115 .McL. said:


Quote:


As I posted earlier

Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins



Chances are that Tate may be the only one left standing. All of these guys have targets on their backs

And that'll be another round of dead money if/when those cuts occur.

Yet another example of the consistent irresponsibility in our cap management - you want your players to play out their full contracts, because not only does that usually mean they're a player of enough value that they deserved to be a mainstay on your roster, but you also qualify for a potential compensatory pick if your players sign with another team after reaching free agency without being released. Teams like the Patriots and Eagles understand this and have successfully worked the comp pick system for years.

Those extra picks obviously let you load your roster with more preferred talent at a significant bargain rate. Cutting guys typically leaves you with dead money and now an additional need to expend finite resources, either through the draft or free agency.

It is a systemic flaw in the way the Giants approach roster construction and cap management.
Dunk, do you think that Gettleman has made a shift  
yatqb : 9/8/2019 1:32 pm : link
and is working to change our dealings around the cap, or that it will be more of the same for us down the line.

I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.
RE: Get ready  
mrvax : 9/8/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14562041 XBRONX said:
Quote:
for the vet signing.


Probably after week 1.
RE: Dunk, do you think that Gettleman has made a shift  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14563520 yatqb said:
Quote:
and is working to change our dealings around the cap, or that it will be more of the same for us down the line.

I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.

He definitely seems to value compensatory picks more than Reese did and the early returns on his draft picks have largely been a massive improvement vs. Reese. That alone will help dramatically - amassing young, cheap talent (that is actually talented) affords you so much more margin for error with the cap.

That said, I do still think there are enough indications so far that Gettleman might have some of his own weaknesses with the cap. The optimist in me hopes that's just a byproduct of the Reese mess, and that a better overall roster might help avoid those no-win decisions and thus preclude Gettleman from even being in a situation that could expose what appears to be his weak spot as it relates to the cap.

The cynic in me wonders how much of this is really just due to Abrams to the extent that the same neverending cycle of middling cap space and absorbing dead money to clear cap room is something we saw consistently through Reese's tenure, and Abrams is the executive in the same role for both GMs.
RE: RE: Dunk, do you think that Gettleman has made a shift  
.McL. : 9/8/2019 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14563627 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14563520 yatqb said:


Quote:


and is working to change our dealings around the cap, or that it will be more of the same for us down the line.

I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.


He definitely seems to value compensatory picks more than Reese did and the early returns on his draft picks have largely been a massive improvement vs. Reese. That alone will help dramatically - amassing young, cheap talent (that is actually talented) affords you so much more margin for error with the cap.

That said, I do still think there are enough indications so far that Gettleman might have some of his own weaknesses with the cap. The optimist in me hopes that's just a byproduct of the Reese mess, and that a better overall roster might help avoid those no-win decisions and thus preclude Gettleman from even being in a situation that could expose what appears to be his weak spot as it relates to the cap.

The cynic in me wonders how much of this is really just due to Abrams to the extent that the same neverending cycle of middling cap space and absorbing dead money to clear cap room is something we saw consistently through Reese's tenure, and Abrams is the executive in the same role for both GMs.


Well said, my feelings exactly.

I am cautiously optimistic that the improved drafting will prevent a horrible cap mess. But, that's about it, can't say I am confident.
If you need to see what $35M in dead money looks like,  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 7:14 pm : link
This is it. Remember that when you hit your knees tonight and worship the mediocrity of our cap guru, the immortal Kevin Abrams. I'm sure some of you still think he's fine (great?) in his role.

Here's the bright side: you might never again have to stay up past your bedtime on draft night so long as he's our cap guy.
.  
Bill2 : 9/8/2019 7:49 pm : link
Does Abrams choose or influence roster and drafting ?

Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?
RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 8:42 pm : link
In comment 14566072 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Does Abrams choose or influence roster and drafting ?

Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?

His contract construction is elementary at best and detrimental at worst. But by all means, letís keep celebrating his mediocrity.
RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/8/2019 8:51 pm : link
In comment 14566072 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Does Abrams choose or influence roster and drafting ?

Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?

And since transitioning from Reese to Gettleman, the choices that theoretically precede Abramsí involvement have mostly been better but the systemic cap management habits have remained the same. I suppose thatís a very feasible coincidence given the shared pedigree of Reese and Gettleman, but Occamís Razor makes Abrams a more likely consideration.
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