Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
The #Giants, who entered the week with the NFL’s least cap space, cleared $5 million by doing a simple restructure on LT Nate Solder’s contract, converting $7.5M of his base salary to a fully guaranteed roster bonus. Cash stays the same: $13M in 2019 and 2020, $14M in 2021.
Thanks for the heads up. They had to do something Â
With the 53 (52 at the moment) plus dead money, plus IR. The players released with injury settlements probably freed up some space. So, we may well have $6m+.
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
I feel like there are better candidates to make this move with. Zeitler is locked up and young, although there may be limits to how much you can convert as a percentage of salary.
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
his contract. Vernon's dead money absolutely does. People are acting like Vegas has us as 10 win team, we lead the league in dead cap space. Dead money correlates strongly with losing football.
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
Lol - this literally a symptom of that problem.
Jenkins, who's arguably coming of a year where he was the worst starting corner in the NFL is making 14.75M, Vernon is costing the Giants 8M as a Brown.
The Giants are putting the 4th fewest dollars on the field in the NFL this year, and just had to borrow against the future to operate this year.
Some bad picks, and made a lot of decisions in between that are controversial. Overall though I feel like we finally have a competant GM. Every move he makes seems to take every factor i to account; salary cap, positional value, coach's preferences, compensatory picks. I am not expecting a good season, or even a bright future but I just have a good feeling about this.
It seems laughable now that the narrative was "Getty doesn't know what he is doing and he is flying by the seat of his pants"
Every move seems like it has multiple folds and layers to it: we let Collins walk "for free" (but we actually got his trade value in a comp pick FOR FREE with no cap hit).
"We didn't get enough for OBJ" even though the Steelers got a fraction of that for Antonio Brown and Beckham is looking like a headache before his first snap.
Every 'bad move' the Giants make look better and better as time goes on.
When tbe analytics say that DBs are more important than EDGE he drafts a bunch of solid DBs while goofing on guys that focus on analytics.
Maybe I am crazy but I feel like there is a clear vision of what this team should be for yhe first time in a long time. And I feel like we have a competant captain steering the ship.
It is year 2 of a 3 year rebuild but I can see what Getty is trying to do and I am on-board with this roster contruction. Ignore the sound bytes and he is looking like one of thd most consistent and coherant GMs in the league.
RE: Jackrabbits contract didn't kill us because he is a decent value at Â
his contract. Vernon's dead money absolutely does. People are acting like Vegas has us as 10 win team, we lead the league in dead cap space. Dead money correlates strongly with losing football.
Would folks here preferred if we kept Vernon (and OBJ for that matter). It’s the cost of doing business when you’re rebuilding a roster.
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
I'm talking about specifically this year. They went too far up to the edge of the cap, and to correct it they're giving more guaranteed money to someone who has done nothing to earn it. I don't see how that's good management.
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
clueless post...
RE: RE: RE: So, Solder was overpaid to begin with Â
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
I'm talking about specifically this year. They went too far up to the edge of the cap, and to correct it they're giving more guaranteed money to someone who has done nothing to earn it. I don't see how that's good management.
All due respect, but IMO this is no big deal.
The one move worthy of questioning is the OBJ deal...paying him before trading him. We’re eating the dead cap on that this year ($16 million)
Some signings like Martin and Ogletree were overpays, but they’re cuttable next year without that big of a cap hit. Omameh was a terrible signing, $3 million dead cap for him this year.
Solder’s deal was always better to get out of after 2020 anyway, pushing more of his hit to next year doesn’t really hamstring us much.
Most important moves have been moving on from JPP and Vernon, who are good players but weren’t producing to the level of their deals. Those cap hits are both gone after this season.
That’s why I think the Giants are doing a good job, they haven’t hamstrung us for future years beyond this year.
Of course, Eli coming off after this year helps...plus have to park money for a monster Saquon deal before too long
What veterans are still out there worth the freed money?
It's not necesssrily about the cap space next year. No one wants to see a repeat of 2016 where we pay out 200 million dollars to free agents that werent retained by their team.
We can make 1 or 2 big splash signings, maybe an edge guy or a star OL.
The big deal is we can extend Saquon, Engram, Hernandez before they think about walking and still roll over enough money to pay guys like Daniel Jones and DeAndre Baker and Dex Lawrence if they play like we think they will. All of this on front loaded contracts that give you flexibility and minimal dead cap money looking forward.
Don't expect to build a 'dream team' in FA in 2020, but with continued success in the draft we can carry a superstar roster that has been built through the draft for 3-5 years.
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
RE: RE: Jackrabbits contract didn't kill us because he is a decent value at Â
his contract. Vernon's dead money absolutely does. People are acting like Vegas has us as 10 win team, we lead the league in dead cap space. Dead money correlates strongly with losing football.
Would folks here preferred if we kept Vernon (and OBJ for that matter). It’s the cost of doing business when you’re rebuilding a roster.
No one is arguing rebuilding was a bad move, it's a response to the repeated assertions from a few that there aren't consequences to bad cap management.
Adding guaranteed money to an already expensive, older player is exactly what you have to do when you're in a tight situation.
This isn't to say DG hasn't had good signings but when you Â
are trying to get out of the abyss like the Giants, the margin of error is slim and you do not want to make any big mistakes. I realize no GM bats 1.000 but threshold needs to be really high because of the stinking mess he inherited.
Signing relatively average players to expensive deals like Solder, Ogletree and Tate are probably examples of what not to do. Particularly if they are average AND older (like Solder and Tate).
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
I feel like there are better candidates to make this move with. Zeitler is locked up and young, although there may be limits to how much you can convert as a percentage of salary.
They restructured Zeitler after the trade. His cap hit is only $5M this year.
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
This is because we're still paying for Reese's mistakes (particularly the awful drafts). The $11M in dead money for Vernon/Snacks is on Reese and to some extent Beckham's $16M (granted DG re-signed him). But we had to sign Solder and Omameh due to the state of the OL.
Hopefully DG manages things better going forward and so far it looks like the 2 drafts will help.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
and the 2020 draft is already time to start looking for his replacement.
But I would argue it was a necessary signing, given the state of our OL at the end of the Reese/Ross era. Anyone who disagrees, fine...who else should we have signed?
We could have drafted Ramczyk instead of Engram 2 years ago...but Reese and Ross in all their wisdom disagreed.
We all hope the Giants can find our version of Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, etc in the draft soon. But until that day comes, nobody is finding even a serviceable left tackle on the discount rack.
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
The Giants drafted very well the last two Aprils. That's an important start.
Free agents, extensions, and trades have been another story, though.
I'm actually not extremely excited about all the 2020 cap space if it means more Stewart/Tate/Ogletree/Solder-type acquisitions.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
The Giants had a bunch of cap room going into 2016 and clearly used it to varying success.
The Giants under the successful Accorsi/Reese years had a really nice balance of UFAs and good drafts. They never had a windfall, but always spent right up to the cap.
In retrospect it's quite cool how good the Giants were from 2005-2012.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
I agree with you but we also have to remember that the Giants drafted Eli under the old rookie pay scale. They didn’t have a 5 year window to spend on other positions because their rookie QB was being paid well below market value. Eli was among the highest paid players in the league right out of the gate.
and the 2020 draft is already time to start looking for his replacement.
But I would argue it was a necessary signing, given the state of our OL at the end of the Reese/Ross era. Anyone who disagrees, fine...who else should we have signed?
We could have drafted Ramczyk instead of Engram 2 years ago...but Reese and Ross in all their wisdom disagreed.
We all hope the Giants can find our version of Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, etc in the draft soon. But until that day comes, nobody is finding even a serviceable left tackle on the discount rack.
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
We keep hearing that EVERY YEAR. "The Giants were FORCED to over-pay! What else could they have done?"
Then we get stuck with huge cap hits from guys like Damon Harrison, Vernon Olivier, etc. - players who eventually the fan base (and team) turns on and they get released with dead money. Solder is going to get cut at some point (perhaps sooner than folks realize) because his huge cap hit won't be justified by his deteriorating play.
What should the Giants have done? Well, draft better. But since they screwed that up, bite the bullet, play a scrub, and keep their financial house in order.
We were "forced" to sign Solder? For what? The benefit of last year's 4th-place finish?
We have probably had two periods where I can recall we had "decent" cap room... the 2005 offseason where we hit a home run (and that free agency period fueled a lot of the success you are talking about) and the 2016 offseason (which immediately looked great but quickly turned to shit).
But 2020 appears to be different in scale... much of which because Eli will be off of the books.
a
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
Meh, the team that we signed Solder away from was able to address the position by trading a midround pick for Trent Brown. They won the SB and let him walk for a future comp pick.
We were in a bad spot with limited options but you don't have to look far to see a team that did better by taking an alternate route.
The Giants had ~57M in space going into 2016, which proportionately quite a bit more of the total cap and the total money on the sidelines in the NFL in 2020.
There's so much money in play next year, don't be surprised if the 62M the Giants have doesn't get much.
RE: RE: Nobody argues we didn’t overpay for Solder Â
and the 2020 draft is already time to start looking for his replacement.
But I would argue it was a necessary signing, given the state of our OL at the end of the Reese/Ross era. Anyone who disagrees, fine...who else should we have signed?
We could have drafted Ramczyk instead of Engram 2 years ago...but Reese and Ross in all their wisdom disagreed.
We all hope the Giants can find our version of Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, etc in the draft soon. But until that day comes, nobody is finding even a serviceable left tackle on the discount rack.
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
We keep hearing that EVERY YEAR. "The Giants were FORCED to over-pay! What else could they have done?"
Then we get stuck with huge cap hits from guys like Damon Harrison, Vernon Olivier, etc. - players who eventually the fan base (and team) turns on and they get released with dead money. Solder is going to get cut at some point (perhaps sooner than folks realize) because his huge cap hit won't be justified by his deteriorating play.
What should the Giants have done? Well, draft better. But since they screwed that up, bite the bullet, play a scrub, and keep their financial house in order.
We were "forced" to sign Solder? For what? The benefit of last year's 4th-place finish?
Giants need to draft better - we all agree on that. Early returns positive from last 2 drafts so far.
Don’t overpay a guy like Solder and let a scrub play LT last season? OK...but consider the kind of scrubs we’re talking about. This team only moved Flowers to RT after signing Solder, for crying out loud. Maybe we could have found a better “scrub” option that Flowers, without paying what we did, but considering how many teams are desperate for OL help, it’s hard to say.
Solder is a grossly overpaid stop gap until we find a better long term solution at LT. But at least Eli (and eventually Jones) won’t get killed between now and then.
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
$60 million with like 30 pending free agents. That $60 million won’t go as far as you think.
If they were concerned about cap space they could have just cut zei and resigned him back cheaper like the Browns did with Robinso .
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
This is because we're still paying for Reese's mistakes (particularly the awful drafts). The $11M in dead money for Vernon/Snacks is on Reese and to some extent Beckham's $16M (granted DG re-signed him). But we had to sign Solder and Omameh due to the state of the OL.
Hopefully DG manages things better going forward and so far it looks like the 2 drafts will help.
Reese didn’t sign Omameh and Stewart and cut them after a year. Or extend and then trade Odell. Or over pay Solder. Or trade for and extend Ogletree.
We have probably had two periods where I can recall we had "decent" cap room... the 2005 offseason where we hit a home run (and that free agency period fueled a lot of the success you are talking about) and the 2016 offseason (which immediately looked great but quickly turned to shit).
But 2020 appears to be different in scale... much of which because Eli will be off of the books.
Right now there is $1.7B of available cap room in the NFL just in 2020.
The Giants hold $62M of that -- I think fans will be disappointed in the buying power the Giants hold, and especially on who is available.
RE: RE: RE: So, Solder was overpaid to begin with Â
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
$60 million with like 30 pending free agents. That $60 million won’t go as far as you think.
If they were concerned about cap space they could have just cut zei and resigned him back cheaper like the Browns did with Robinso .
Take a look at the player salary page and look at the guys with no contract past this year. Which guys are we spending significant money on to bring back?
Solder isn't some missing piece to a championship puzzle. The Patriots liked him but let him go because they knew he wasn't worth the money. They made a cost-benefit decision and they believed they could replace Solder.
Could the Giants have done a lot worse than Solder last year? Hell yes. But so what? The Giants finished 4th place in the division. And Solder won't be the guy who will be protecting Daniel Jones' blindside in a couple of years.
Fans keep asking, "Why do the Cowboys and Eagles have so much cap room?"
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
$60 million with like 30 pending free agents. That $60 million won’t go as far as you think.
If they were concerned about cap space they could have just cut zei and resigned him back cheaper like the Browns did with Robinso .
Take a look at the player salary page and look at the guys with no contract past this year. Which guys are we spending significant money on to bring back?
The point isn’t who we’ll bring back the point is there will be a lot of holes to fill.
They will be disappointed in who is available because only a few really good players now hit the market.
But what you do is use that money to keep your own players.
Draft well, re-sign your draft picks, sprinkle in some free agents. Maybe you get lucky and get another Kareem McKenzie or Antonio Pierce.
I completely agree. The player I hope is worth extending after this year is Engram. Shepard is locked-up, and there aren't many UFAs on the roster, and Barkley cannot be extended yet.
Solder isn't some missing piece to a championship puzzle. The Patriots liked him but let him go because they knew he wasn't worth the money. They made a cost-benefit decision and they believed they could replace Solder.
Could the Giants have done a lot worse than Solder last year? Hell yes. But so what? The Giants finished 4th place in the division. And Solder won't be the guy who will be protecting Daniel Jones' blindside in a couple of years.
Fans keep asking, "Why do the Cowboys and Eagles have so much cap room?"
The answer is right in front of you.
Would tanking a couple more seasons while not overpaying for average players like Solder, Ogletree, Kareem Martin, and some others while preserving cap space been better for the long term? Sure.
My original point in this discussion is despite overpaying for some middling stop gaps to make the team more competitive, we haven’t really hamstrung the cap after this season. That’s why I make the case DG and Abrams have done good work.
What do we all really want? A perennial super bowl contender. How does that get built? Strong drafting over several years - like we did from 2004-2010. Or 1979-1989. On that we all agree.
I've always taken the approach that sometimes you have to get much worse in order to get better so you can get your house in order.
These stop-gap measures never have sat well with me. With the Giants and football, and in other sports with New York teams. There is a certain basketball team in the metropolitan area that has never learned this lesson.
You seem like you have a better solution and are so confident that anyone else is wrong to the point of put down for speaking
Ok specifically what you would have done ? with whom? and for how much?
Thanks for sharing the superior solution that you seem to know
Don't be an ass.
Realize the team wasn't anywhere ready to win so what the hell is the point in creating the most expensive paid Left Tackle in history for a slightly above average left tackle? Sorry it went hand in hand with other strategies including keeping immobile Eli in place and drafting a RB with #2 creating a massive need to put an experienced LT in place, but those are the choices made.
Solder was not a signing that made sense in my opinion.
RE: RE: Nobody argues we didn’t overpay for Solder Â
a
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
Meh, the team that we signed Solder away from was able to address the position by trading a midround pick for Trent Brown. They won the SB and let him walk for a future comp pick.
We were in a bad spot with limited options but you don't have to look far to see a team that did better by taking an alternate route.
Nobody argues that we didn't overpay Solder?? You want me to go pull up the archived thread the week we signed him...
I've always taken the approach that sometimes you have to get much worse in order to get better so you can get your house in order.
These stop-gap measures never have sat well with me. With the Giants and football, and in other sports with New York teams. There is a certain basketball team in the metropolitan area that has never learned this lesson.
I agree, the Giants were a mess because of poor drafting which means they have to overspend in free agency to address holes. They need to not only continue to draft well as they have two years in a row, they also need to make wise personnel decisions.
The Patriots are able to let key players like Solder leave because of their ability to find suitable, cheaper options. It’s not just identifying talent, you also need the coaching staff to coach them up into contributors. The Giants appear to have done better in this regard lately with Halapio, Haley, Davis, Hill, Carter, Fowler, etc.
I've always taken the approach that sometimes you have to get much worse in order to get better so you can get your house in order.
These stop-gap measures never have sat well with me. With the Giants and football, and in other sports with New York teams. There is a certain basketball team in the metropolitan area that has never learned this lesson.
Well let’s also acknowledge the elephant in the room - the Giants wanted to try and be competitive again for Eli’s last couple seasons. Foolish? Maybe. Many have made that argument, and it’s not without some merit.
But let’s not compare the Giants to the Knicks. Giants had about 6-7 years of lousy drafts, and have mostly sucked because of it since our last SB in 2011.
But that’s a far cry from trading #1 picks for Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Andrez Bargnani, etc etc etc.
and depth required, and then taking the hits altogether to create a clean base from which to rebuild from. Contracts like Solder go against that thinking for a team like the Giants that needed a deep restructuring.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
You seem to like cap discussions to be zero sum, hyperbole. No one is saying it's the end of the world.
It's the aggregate of short sighted signings from both Reese and Gettleman that assuaged an immediate itch, but don't point toward a championship.
As a fan I'm sick of hearing about acquisitions because of stabilization, culture, locker room, why not?, anything other than we expect this guy to be a part of the roster when we raise the next trophy.
Solder stumbled through a 5 win season. I hope he and the team do much better. But this "what would we have done in place of him" starts to sound like Maugham's Verger.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
That’s because for a stretch there the Giants actually drafted well. It costs money to acquire and retain the OL they had. Guys like Tiki, Shockey, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Plax, Nicks, Cruz, etc cost money to keep.
The Giants are paying the piper this year for all of the mistakes of the prior regime. They started the process last year with JPP and a few other guys.
The dead cap situation obviously sucks this year but it was necessary for a hard reset on the roster. Moving forward Solder is the only questionable contract on the roster. That’s a healthy position to be in.
The Pats offered him the same $62m but ours was structured more to his liking. If he'd stayed with the Pats how many would be saying they over payed. And if he had stayed who'd be playing LT for us.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
That’s because for a stretch there the Giants actually drafted well. It costs money to acquire and retain the OL they had. Guys like Tiki, Shockey, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Plax, Nicks, Cruz, etc cost money to keep.
The Giants are paying the piper this year for all of the mistakes of the prior regime. They started the process last year with JPP and a few other guys.
The dead cap situation obviously sucks this year but it was necessary for a hard reset on the roster. Moving forward Solder is the only questionable contract on the roster. That’s a healthy position to be in.
We would be in a healthy position if this was our cap situation with a talented roster. But this cap situation with the talent level we have is not an enviable position
There needs to be some perspective regarding the signing. Reese’s shitty decision making essentially forced the Giants hand on Solder. Think back to what the OL was that off-season and who is left on the Giants. Gettleman had to rebuild the OL from literally nothing.
The Solder decision would’ve never happened if Reese did his job. He passed on Tunsil. He passed on Ramcyk. He passed on Whitworth in FA because Flowers was his boy and he wanted to “get younger.” There were plenty of opportunities staring Reese right in the face up until the very end.
Did Gettleman overpay for Solder? Probably. But it’s an understandable overpay given the circumstances at the time the decision was made.
Solder wasn’t acquired as the missing piece to a championship team. He was a solid building block to an OL that was in ruins.
The solder over pay won’t kill us, neither will the restructure Â
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
That’s because for a stretch there the Giants actually drafted well. It costs money to acquire and retain the OL they had. Guys like Tiki, Shockey, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Plax, Nicks, Cruz, etc cost money to keep.
The Giants are paying the piper this year for all of the mistakes of the prior regime. They started the process last year with JPP and a few other guys.
The dead cap situation obviously sucks this year but it was necessary for a hard reset on the roster. Moving forward Solder is the only questionable contract on the roster. That’s a healthy position to be in.
We would be in a healthy position if this was our cap situation with a talented roster. But this cap situation with the talent level we have is not an enviable position
Another strong draft in 20 along with a smart FA period and no one will be crying about the talent level.
The Pats offered him the same $62m but ours was structured more to his liking. If he'd stayed with the Pats how many would be saying they over payed. And if he had stayed who'd be playing LT for us.
Irrelevant regarding the Pats. He didn't make financial sense for Giants.
I also chuckle at the poster comments stating "who else would be playing LT for Giants if not Solder?". Are you suggesting Gettleman was backed into corner that if he didn't get Solder there was no backup plan...at all? Gee, can't understand why he must have cost so much...
The Pats offered him the same $62m but ours was structured more to his liking. If he'd stayed with the Pats how many would be saying they over payed. And if he had stayed who'd be playing LT for us.
Do not believe that is true. Solder made a comment to the effect that he had received another offer that was just as good and some people interpreted that as coming from the Patriots.
But the Texans were also heavily in on him and my recollection is that the better info was that they were the source of the deal Solder was referring to.
I know the fans/asshats on the Pats board discounted the notion that the Pats would make such an offer.
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
This is why I don't share the same optimism a lot of BBI has. Everyone seems to believe things have drastically changed since Coughlin then Reese were relieved of their duties. I see a lot of the same mistakes, from a core front office that has retained quite a few people from when Reese was here.
This is just more proof - overpay for a mediocre FA, then restructure to make sure he's around for a few more years. Abrams has been managing the Giants cap for a long time, his fingerprints are all over this one and he's rumored to be the heir apparent after Gettleman is gone.
RE: The solder over pay won’t kill us, neither will the restructure Â
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
The Giants have 34 mil in dead money and about 30 of that is Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, and Apple. All underperforming Reese guys who were a part of the problem for this team.
It’s not death by a million cuts. It’s the byproduct of turning over Reese’s loser roster.
The Pats offered him the same $62m but ours was structured more to his liking. If he'd stayed with the Pats how many would be saying they over payed. And if he had stayed who'd be playing LT for us.
This has been litigated to death on BBI. The Patriots were dead in the middle of a championship run, huge difference in situations. Solder would not have been learning a new system on a 5 win team.
But of course the Pats didn't cave to Solder's preferred structure, which was speculated to be all guarantees at signing.
And of course the Pats played it perfectly, waited for the draft, traded a mid-round pick for a better, younger player, won another ring, and will recoup a higher pick in compensation.
RE: RE: The solder over pay won’t kill us, neither will the restructure Â
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
The Giants have 34 mil in dead money and about 30 of that is Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, and Apple. All underperforming Reese guys who were a part of the problem for this team.
It’s not death by a million cuts. It’s the byproduct of turning over Reese’s loser roster.
That was super crazy when Reese made Gettleman sign Beckham to that huge extension, right?
RE: RE: The solder over pay won’t kill us, neither will the restructure Â
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
The Giants have 34 mil in dead money and about 30 of that is Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, and Apple. All underperforming Reese guys who were a part of the problem for this team.
It’s not death by a million cuts. It’s the byproduct of turning over Reese’s loser roster.
You can’t put OBJ on Reese. Getts gave him the contract that is hurting the team.
I think that Gettleman has an accurate vision of our talent level Â
now. Combine that with good drafting and I believe that we'll be OK in the near future. One or two more good drafts will bring us where we want to be...a consistently competitive team.
Solder's restructure won't affect that. But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
RE: I think that Gettleman has an accurate vision of our talent level Â
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
And example 1,000,001 of fans not realizing how the cap works but feeling the need to defend the move.
The Giants just borrowed $2.5M of 2020 and 2021 cap space to do this. All we did was effectively push some of this year's dead money forward over the next two seasons because we bit off more than we could chew with dead money this season.
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
And example 1,000,002.
RE: RE: I think that Gettleman has an accurate vision of our talent level Â
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
Agreed. Add top ILB to that list and I think we're set. No need for a great WR -- see New England.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So, Solder was overpaid to begin with Â
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
I'm talking about specifically this year. They went too far up to the edge of the cap, and to correct it they're giving more guaranteed money to someone who has done nothing to earn it. I don't see how that's good management.
All due respect, but IMO this is no big deal.
The one move worthy of questioning is the OBJ deal...paying him before trading him. We’re eating the dead cap on that this year ($16 million)
Some signings like Martin and Ogletree were overpays, but they’re cuttable next year without that big of a cap hit. Omameh was a terrible signing, $3 million dead cap for him this year.
Solder’s deal was always better to get out of after 2020 anyway, pushing more of his hit to next year doesn’t really hamstring us much.
Most important moves have been moving on from JPP and Vernon, who are good players but weren’t producing to the level of their deals. Those cap hits are both gone after this season.
That’s why I think the Giants are doing a good job, they haven’t hamstrung us for future years beyond this year.
Of course, Eli coming off after this year helps...plus have to park money for a monster Saquon deal before too long
You don't know what you're talking about. The Giants just borrowed from 2020 and 2021 to cover a chunk of that dead money because they took on too much this year.
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
This is because we're still paying for Reese's mistakes (particularly the awful drafts). The $11M in dead money for Vernon/Snacks is on Reese and to some extent Beckham's $16M (granted DG re-signed him). But we had to sign Solder and Omameh due to the state of the OL.
Hopefully DG manages things better going forward and so far it looks like the 2 drafts will help.
There is no fucking way short of willful ignorance that you can pin OBJ's dead money on Reese. None.
This year is about paying for the sins of the past Â
It's crystal clear that this regime is paying for the terrible drafts that Reese/Ross had for the prior 6/7 years. That includes the Omameh/Stewart/Beckham/Solder deals that had to be made because the cupboard was essentially barren.
The Solder restructure basically shows us two things. First it gives the team operating capital in case of injuries. Don't forget anything not used will get rolled back into next year's cap. Second they must draft Solder's replacement in 2020/2021 as his cap number in 2021(according to OTC.com) is $6.5 million with a savings of $14 million if he's cut.
As long as this regime continues to draft well (showing on the field not on paper) and utilizing free agency to augment the drafted talent they are on the right track. If they use free agency to build the team and buy depth then they will continue on the same roller coaster ride with no way to get off
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
And example 1,000,002.
It's as if the Giants are coming off 3 & 5 win seasons and are putting the 4th fewest dollars in the entire NFL this year on the field because of a magical genie and not bad management.
There is a cost to all of this. Linval Joseph is no longer a Giant for example. And because of that, the Giants also had to spend another high draft pick to replace him.
Again, perspective. People are looking at his dead money in a vacuum without considering how the Giants got to that point.
Only the most diehard anti-Beckham people on this site would’ve applauded not giving Beckham the contract at the time the Giants agreed to an extension. There’s no telling what his trade value would’ve been coming off an injury without an extension.
It’s easy for random posters to trash Gettleman for Beckham’s dead money and MMQB the situation, but I seriously doubt anyone here would’ve had the balls to let him walk or trade him for pennies on the dollar. I doubt most here would’ve had the balls to trade him to Cleveland after the extension.
There is a cost to all of this. Linval Joseph is no longer a Giant for example. And because of that, the Giants also had to spend another high draft pick to replace him.
Reese did that time after time. He kept using 2nd round picks to replace players who'd been 2nd round picks a few years earlier. But DG isn't Reese. Hopefully he will draft well enough that at some point soon draft choices will replace our high ticket FAs. It's started already with the trades of Harrison and Vernon and our not signing Collins.
It all comes down to our ability to draft well. We'll see about that, but the results these first two years re encouraging.
Gettleman has done a great job of cleaning out Reese's and his own bad contracts.
There is nothing good about bad contracts.
Any explanation and rationale that isn't about the guy playing above or near to the value of his deal is absolutely dopey.
If the Giants need to overpay players to "stabilize" the team, improve the culture, or teach younger players -- they need to take a hard fucking look at the coaching staff.
Yup... it was comical at one point. Draft a DT in the 2nd round, let him walk after his first contract, draft a DT in the 2nd round again. Kind of felt like treading water, didn't it?
There is a cost to all of this. Linval Joseph is no longer a Giant for example. And because of that, the Giants also had to spend another high draft pick to replace him.
I know. It's been going on for years. And yet there are still fans who not only think that the Giants do an acceptable job, but a GOOD job of cap management.
Everyone waits for the cap to catch up with teams like the old Redskins regime that signed every big name free agent, but as long as you take your medicine and don't constantly kick the can down the road, you can get out from under a shitty cap situation fairly quickly.
But that's not the Giants way, not under Reese, and so far, not under Gettleman. People want to pin some of Gettleman's moves on Reese, that's fine. But hopefully they realize that $20M of the ~$35M in dead money that the Giants are carrying this year is due to contracts that Gettleman himself handed out (most notably Beckham and Omameh), not Reese.
It was awful to see really talented young players go. Â
And if I recall, we weren't even getting comp picks for those losses because of other FA signings we made. Like signing Harrison as opposed to keeping Linval Joseph a year (?) earlier.
I just said the same thing to my wife... "We used to mock the Redskins for the stuff we were doing under Reese."
Just to be clear, I think Gettleman is doing better than Reese (hard not to). His drafts look much better. His free agent decisions have not been as good.
I don't know if you saw my argument on Twitter with Paul Dottino this morning when he called Gettleman "crafty" for restructuring Solder. I wouldn't use the word "crafty". Deferring cap pain because of previous screw ups is not "crafty."
RE: RE: RE: I think that Gettleman has an accurate vision of our talent level Â
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
Agreed. Add top ILB to that list and I think we're set. No need for a great WR -- see New England.
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
I think it is. I hope they double-up on OT's in the 2020 draft (even triple-up, as they did with CB's this year, adding a decent C/OG prospect). Of course it all depends on how the whole thing shakes out, where they're picking, who's available, and how they've graded each prospect. The best value might be at ER/OLB or WR early on. Personally, I'd look for an ILB and FS in free agency.
I'd also like to know when the liability warranty of Reese runs out for Gettleman. All this time, I thought the argument was Gettleman is a better GM, so wouldn't that in turn mean his moves wouldn't just be out of desperation, but actually more successful?
If success is to just keep substituting for Reese's mistakes -- couldn't have ya know, Reese kept just doing that?
Gettleman has made a number of really high conviction moves; Jones, Barkley, trading Vernon, trading Beckham, trading JPP. I bet those end up really good moves.
Doesn't absolve him or make his missteps Reese's fault. That's chickenshit.
There is no secret sauce to building a roster, but I can tell you going into free agency and saying if I don't pay Solder that highest contract in OL History then we won't have a left tackle next season sounds ridiculous.
Happy to go back and forth on this but don't think you are in a state of mind to reasonably care. I called you an ass above because your post needlessly called out Eric and I as acting superior.
But, I would point out that I never ever responded to Jimmy Googs except on this thread and got the response I got
So the other possibility is that you tolerate a bad poster or you don't see the bad posters in your midst
There are plenty of abrasive people like Jimmy Googs on this site, some quite popular. If I banned people for being abrasive or having unpopular views, this place would be pretty boring.
I suggest the two of you stop interacting with each other.
But it is your site and you have certainly made a lot of efforts Â
I just said the same thing to my wife... "We used to mock the Redskins for the stuff we were doing under Reese."
Just to be clear, I think Gettleman is doing better than Reese (hard not to). His drafts look much better. His free agent decisions have not been as good.
I don't know if you saw my argument on Twitter with Paul Dottino this morning when he called Gettleman "crafty" for restructuring Solder. I wouldn't use the word "crafty". Deferring cap pain because of previous screw ups is not "crafty."
Dottino blocked me last year for commenting about him claiming Webb was the heir apparent so I didn't see it.
We all know free agency is mostly paying A money for B level players. Solder was overpaid, but everyone bobs on the knob of Belichick and from all reports their offer was slightly below the Giants. It was a monumental hole that needed to be addressed.
We all know free agency is mostly paying A money for B level players. Solder was overpaid, but everyone bobs on the knob of Belichick and from all reports their offer was slightly below the Giants. It was a monumental hole that needed to be addressed.
Except it's not revisionist when some of us criticized the signing at the time.
Let's be frank... Solder hasn't been very good. He's been average at best and at times, not good. Even Sy has picked up on it.
Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?
Sure I do.
The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
While it's true that DG didn't have to spend $62 million to get a LT Â
that was better than Flowers (almost anybody would have been better), I think Gettleman thought that a healthy Solder would be an elite LT for the next five years. The Pats drafted him on the 1st round. The guy is 6'8", 320 lbs and has always shown good footwork. If he's healthy, he should be able to protect Eli's blind side against just about any edge rusher. Supposedly Solder had a neck injury in the first half of 2018 and may have had ankle pain the entire year based on the recent removal of ankle bone spurs. If, however, the bone spurs are an indication of ankle arthritis that will only worsen, Solder may never be elite.
I think the original Solder signing was a tax penalty that had to be paid on Reese and Ross's failure.
That is not on Gettleman
What is on Gettleman is not getting a way out by now
So imo, both things are true:
1) Solder was an ok gamble he had more to give at a time when there was not any alternative that made a QB transition a less risky proposition ( from what we see so far)
2) Not more aggressively attacking the problem of being over the barrel on Offensive Tackles is on Gettleman and we will pay not on Solders last or this year...but having to keep him next year. We are not going to start a rookie LT the year Jones takes over...so DG made a multi year hopa hopa out of a one year pickle. imo
RE: While it's true that DG didn't have to spend $62 million to get a LT Â
that was better than Flowers (almost anybody would have been better), I think Gettleman thought that a healthy Solder would be an elite LT for the next five years. The Pats drafted him on the 1st round. The guy is 6'8", 320 lbs and has always shown good footwork. If he's healthy, he should be able to protect Eli's blind side against just about any edge rusher. Supposedly Solder had a neck injury in the first half of 2018 and may have had ankle pain the entire year based on the recent removal of ankle bone spurs. If, however, the bone spurs are an indication of ankle arthritis that will only worsen, Solder may never be elite.
Good post. Solder was choppy for the first half of the season last year, pretty solid second half. Nobody’s declaring him an All-Pro ...but hinting that he’s not any good isn’t accurate either. Questions about performance vs. contract aside, he’s part of what looks to be a more solid OL this season.
Side note...he was elected team captain by his teammates. That pesky team leadership/culture concept a lot of people rush to discount. Especially those who never spent time in a football locker room.
he was avg to fairly good. Free Agency obviously results in paying top dollar for available players, particularly if you happen to be at the near top of that list at your respective position when your free agent year comes around.
Teams going thru a restructuring can add free agents, but they shouldn't do it haphazardly when their window of opportunity isn't even close to being open, nor should they create history with slightly above avg older players...whats the point?
was that when guys rush to the outside, he takes them behind the QB, and allows the QB to step up. However, with the interior jailbreaks last season (particularly in the first half), the pocket was always being pushed back instantly. So the QB had nowhere to step up and instead was retreating into Solder's blocking area. With a competent o-line, his play should be fine - not perfect but more than adequate.
We also took him on to show the rookies and new line what it took to be a good line. We hope that helped Hernandez. Now Zeitler helps or furthers that. Notice Solder, not Zeitler was picked for a team captain by his peers. Doubt that happens if they think he is overpaid. So their vote is slightly different than our take
All that said, uust like we cluster drafted CB this year, I think they should have not depended on one guy quite so much
Now, we know the Pats did not just let him go...they made a decent offer. That should tell us that maybe...maybe...the contract was not that far off league opinion on his value
As much as I recognized that Solder was being overpaid, Â
I also understood DG's desire to finally give Eli an OL that didn't leave him helpless and gun shy.
It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.
I think one possibility is that in the first year, without a clear common view at the top of the Giants that it was time to clean house...our GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster.
But it is also important to remember that when we went and looked for a new HC...we went and talked extensively and got far along in the recruiting process with two guys who would have had interesting remarks about Solder and what they would do to get things turned around.
The OC and DC of the Patriots. Before FA.
another year with a terrible LT or overpay? Not so one way a decision.
Not preparing for the future on what is usually the 2nd hardest position to fill? To me, that is an easier and clearer critique on Gettleman and or ownerships view in year one of his hire ( when to my eyes they actually over valued how close they were based on McAdoos first year record)
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
Agreed. Let's draft correctly, and use our cap space to pay our guys as they come up for second contracts. Then use FA to find some low cost veterans to fill in a few holes.
RE: The solder over pay won’t kill us, neither will the restructure Â
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?
Sure I do.
The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
Bill, there are two different issues here.
(1) When folks start wondering why the Cowboys and Eagles are not only better but have way more cap room than us (Cowboys have $22 million, Eagles $16 million), it's not only because they draft better, but it's because the poor drafting leads to overpaying for mediocre talent.
(2) The question is, "Knowing what you know now about Solder, would you still have signed him last year?" I would not. I don't think he's worth the contract. I don't think he was worth keeping a 5-11 season being a 3-13 season. So not only is he going to be taking up cap room in 2019, 2020, and 2021, he also is going to have quite a bit of dead money win they cut him. What I'm saying is maybe it would have been better to have gone with a street guy like Chad Slade or of that ilk, see if you find a gem (a la Brad Benson), and if not, draft his replacement.
IMO, Nate Solder isn't going to be our left tackle when Daniel Jones is in his 3rd season. Is it better to have Solder out there to protect him in the short term? Perhaps,and that's the only reason I can think of for defending the signing at this point. But it sure would be nice had they used that Lauletta pick on another OL.
RE: As much as I recognized that Solder was being overpaid, Â
I also understood DG's desire to finally give Eli an OL that didn't leave him helpless and gun shy.
It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.
Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?
Sure I do.
The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
Bill, there are two different issues here.
(1) When folks start wondering why the Cowboys and Eagles are not only better but have way more cap room than us (Cowboys have $22 million, Eagles $16 million), it's not only because they draft better, but it's because the poor drafting leads to overpaying for mediocre talent.
(2) The question is, "Knowing what you know now about Solder, would you still have signed him last year?" I would not. I don't think he's worth the contract. I don't think he was worth keeping a 5-11 season being a 3-13 season. So not only is he going to be taking up cap room in 2019, 2020, and 2021, he also is going to have quite a bit of dead money win they cut him. What I'm saying is maybe it would have been better to have gone with a street guy like Chad Slade or of that ilk, see if you find a gem (a la Brad Benson), and if not, draft his replacement.
IMO, Nate Solder isn't going to be our left tackle when Daniel Jones is in his 3rd season. Is it better to have Solder out there to protect him in the short term? Perhaps,and that's the only reason I can think of for defending the signing at this point. But it sure would be nice had they used that Lauletta pick on another OL.
Excellent analysis. Overpaying for expense FAs like Solder is one example of why this team has not drafted well. As I said, teams that draft well use their cap money to resign their own players, and then get second tier and therefore affordable FAs to address a few needs. Overpaying for FAs is what got the Redskins into trouble for so many years, something that they are doing less of now. And even if you lose a good player to FA, there is a decent chance you'll get a nice comp pick the next year.
You might even trade Solder for a mint to a playoff bound team before or during next season we had drafted his ( and Remmers with the bad back) replacement candidates by now and got lucky.
Now, I realize that you cant replace every one at every position in year one. But the bigger gamble than Barkley or Jones is Solder and Remmers without a back up even in sight going into next year ( remember, even a LT drafted in round one is highly unlikely to start next year).
Again, the Solder contract to me is the product of being over a barrel on an OLine that was Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, No one and No one when Dg got here. Reese left an absolute nightmare. Ok...a pass for DG
So why stay in a position where it could happen again? That to me is a mistake DG made. He would be a more solid ground ( I did not say solid ground, I said More solid ground) if he traded OBJ for a LT and a draft choice and cap space to pay the LT next year. Or something like that.
Its like the Fed re inflating...its a form of a pay it forward gamble
And I'm not against free agency. The Giants did a hell of a job targeting some OL free agents like Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, Ron Stone. The latter two got huge contracts (for the time they were signed). Nate just hasn't lived up to the contract.
I think one possibility is that in the first year, without a clear common view at the top of the Giants that it was time to clean house...our GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster.
But it is also important to remember that when we went and looked for a new HC...we went and talked extensively and got far along in the recruiting process with two guys who would have had interesting remarks about Solder and what they would do to get things turned around.
The OC and DC of the Patriots. Before FA.
another year with a terrible LT or overpay? Not so one way a decision.
Not preparing for the future on what is usually the 2nd hardest position to fill? To me, that is an easier and clearer critique on Gettleman and or ownerships view in year one of his hire ( when to my eyes they actually over valued how close they were based on McAdoos first year record)
I hear you Bill. Except I kind of banged the table hard the day I heard about the Solder signing, with exact worry that you mention above "GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster". I think I posted something along the lines of "Did DG fall down and hit his head on the ground on the way to work this morning?".
I am not saying Left Tackles grow on trees and we certainly get Flowers out of there, but don't tell me there was not other options to pursue than just paying the most for Solder because there was. In fact, Giants pursued guard Norwell first and lost so they turned their attention to Solder. Obviously, DG would need a LT if he got Norwell, so there was a plan B, or are we saying he was an idiot and this was his first rodeo? :-)
And I'm not against free agency. The Giants did a hell of a job targeting some OL free agents like Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, Ron Stone. The latter two got huge contracts (for the time they were signed). Nate just hasn't lived up to the contract.
I'm not against it either. Antonio Pierce was a good signing for us.
Some teams get the 9th pick in the draft and get Tyron Smith. Â
Solder filled one. One can argue that they didn't have a single truly competent o-lineman under contract. They did what they needed to do to make a start toward a decent o-line. Solder was a better signing than if they had resigned Pugh and Richberg.
Of course, you have to draft well to win. But that is a long process that requires you to be both good and lucky. If we hadn't signed Solder, we would have had to use one of the top four picks over the last two years on a left tackle and wait for them to develop. And that is always a crapshoot even in the first and second round.
as you are alluding to. Empirically, you are right across the board. However, looking at it with a larger lens, the situation changes gradually, with each year being better than the previous. I think Gettleman’s goal is to NOT be over paying for vets to plug holes. I think within 2 years from now, he wants a better, younger roster, with NO dead money or vets on questionable contracts. But he can’t get there all at once. If the essentials of a roster rebuild is 3 years, cleaning up ALL the financials may take a bit longer to sort out.
In any case, it “seems” like they are moving in the right direction financially and talent wise.
directly led to Solder. You said it yourself Eric, draft better. That’s where it starts. Then you can clean up the bad contracts. OBJ was a bad signing unless the only way to trade him was if he was signed long term? In any case, there is a lot of clean up that goes into effect after this season.
Maybe draft Braden Smith over Hernandez and throw him to the wolves rookie year? Chad Wheeler? Then we're talking about getting Eli decapitated. We lose some more games in 2019 and maybe we have Kyler Murray instead of Daniel Jones. Our interior line would be in rough shape now sans Hernandez unless we spend a draft pick in 2019 instead of the other positions we addressed. Would that make us any better off as a team this year or next?
The draft will steadily right the ship because we're still paying off the debt Reese left.
DG was left with a mess especially the O-line... Â
So adding Soldier at a massive amount to try and
rebuild but FT's don't grow on trees Nate started to play
better at the end of the season and partly that they added
Jamon Brown they started to jell .
I expect Soldier will have a solid year providing he stays
healthy . Hernandez has a year under his belt Halapio who
was plying well before breaking his leg is back and will only get better . If Remmers stays healthy we are in good shape
this season maybe they still add a swing tackle .
So with a lot of cap space we may be able to add another tackle in free agency and draft another early in 2020 .
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
Yeah, that was exactly my thinking when I saw this... Oh great, now we ate into next year's and the year after's money.
out here by a number of people, it wasn't just Flowers that screwed us, but Pugh and Richburg.
Jesus, we screwed up three high OL picks.
I thought Richburg was a good pick. Watching him stone Aaron Donald and Ra'Shede Hagemann at the Senior Bowl practices was pretty damned impressive. Daniel Jeremiah couldn't stop talking about him.
Don't get me started on Pugh, though.
$2.5M is peanuts. That won't hurt us at all if Solder is on Â
roster for two more years, and minimally if he's not. The issue, as many have said, is drafting well and targeting players in the trenches over more "finesse" positions until we have our lines fixed with young talent. We've started that with DG's picks of Hernandez and the defensive linemen, but there's a lot more work to do.
Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Solder is overpaid as well, but unfortunately he was a necessary evil, assuming we wanted to keep our QB among the living for a team that thought it could compete. Problem is. last year was a lost year, and anybody without NYG colored glasses could see it. I have always thought that DG knew it also, but he needed to appease Mara first. Thus he had no choice but to sign Solder to protect Manning. Once it was obvious that the season was going to nowhere, he wasted no time with the teardown.
The worst part about Solder is that he won't be here when the team is ready to compete. So signing him is just kicking the LT can down the road for quite an expensive price. We would have been better off picking a bunch of mid round OLs and trying to develop them.
I expect that Ogletree and Ellison won't be on the roster next year Â
and it's doubtful if Jenkins is. Given how DG has cleared out other overpaid players, I'm expecting that he'll do the same with these guys. One thing he showed in Carolina was a focus on getting his cap back in good shape. I think he'll continue to do so here too.
RE: I expect that Ogletree and Ellison won't be on the roster next year Â
and it's doubtful if Jenkins is. Given how DG has cleared out other overpaid players, I'm expecting that he'll do the same with these guys. One thing he showed in Carolina was a focus on getting his cap back in good shape. I think he'll continue to do so here too.
He has already been doing a good job of clearing cap mistakes. Except he has made a few of his own. Nothing even within an order of magnitude as bad as Reese & co, but mistakes nonetheless.
I forgot about the pursuit of Norwell ( and I have not tracked his subsequent performance.
So that makes me re think what was going on in DG's head.
Stabilize with one side or the other?
Or sign both and don't re- sign OBJ? or Eli? ( which I could have understood at the time as at least a power move risk to stabilize the biggest problem in one fell swoop)
Or worst of all, try one and then be forced to stabilize around a good but lesser player at a higher paying position?
Notice he went and got Zeitler at the same position a year later so maybe his wants a pillar to build around on each side of the line?
OR Maybe (!) there is no design behind it at all. Wade into FA and start with someone good and go from there?
Back to my opinion ( as we all often wind up torturing data into confessing our original hot take) that OK free pass on starting the OL rebuild somewhere and quickly.
But if it was worth the first priority to fix why not make sure its not another dip backwards next year and the year after?
Tells me that maybe one of the priorities in FA 2020 is another OT upgrade for one never wants to go into a draft in need in round one and OTs often are far less capable of getting in there quickly in round 2-3 than round 1.
Anyway, completely forgot the Norwell angle ( and imo, a top tier guard is very essential given Eli's reactions to pressure up the middle and any ability to gain short yardage in the red zones...two big performance gaps of the Giants prior to 2018).
Yup, a few. But on balance a far better job of it. Â
Let's face it, Dallas and Philly have done a far better job of drafting than we did in the Reese era. Gettleman has a steep climb in front of him to get the roster competitive with those teams. We'll need to be patient with that.
Thankfully, it looks to me that we have a young QB who may be as talented as those of our competitors.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
RE: As much as I recognized that Solder was being overpaid, Â
I also understood DG's desire to finally give Eli an OL that didn't leave him helpless and gun shy.
It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.
IMO, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. You can simultaneously understand the reason why Solder was signed, and even reconcile the signing itself, while also pointing out that continued examples of suboptimal cap management (to put it kindly) are now already starting to push into the next couple of years.
We're already trotting out the 4th lowest paid roster in the NFL this season because of the massive dead money, and now we had to borrow from 2020 and 2021 to maintain enough flexibility to get through this season.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
The Eagles are in a playoff window and don't have the 4th lowest paid roster this season - that's what makes this frustrating. It's like Gettleman set out to pay off all his credit card debt and then immediately took a cash advance as soon as the payment posted to his account.
I forgot about the pursuit of Norwell ( and I have not tracked his subsequent performance.
So that makes me re think what was going on in DG's head.
My guess is he wanted Norwell based the most (based on news reports) and then would have tried to use the 2nd pick to grab an OT instead of guard Will Hernandez. There were a couple decent OT choices in the draft but may have had to move up into end of Rd 1 to get the best of them (Wynn). The other LTs in free agency were a big step down from an even average Solder so I am sure that wasn't attractive to DG but he probably signs one with experience and let that guy battle it out with 2nd round pick tackle to be the starter.
That's my hypothesis.
So when he loses out on Norwell, DG basically has to go "all-in" on Solder and outbids everybody because he has to do something impactful in both free agency and the draft to give Eli some breathing room and Mara some reason for optimism in 2018. And, in my opinion, went down an uber-expensive path to do it
Maybe draft Braden Smith over Hernandez and throw him to the wolves rookie year? Chad Wheeler? Then we're talking about getting Eli decapitated. We lose some more games in 2019 and maybe we have Kyler Murray instead of Daniel Jones. Our interior line would be in rough shape now sans Hernandez unless we spend a draft pick in 2019 instead of the other positions we addressed. Would that make us any better off as a team this year or next?
The draft will steadily right the ship because we're still paying off the debt Reese left.
Some scrub. Again, so we go 3-13 instead of 5-11. And Eli gets even more scared.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.
I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.
Ross' smugness alone in this show is enough to make you puke.
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.
That is a scary list. Surprisingly, OBJ is the only player we got anything out of...
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.
Reese tried to trade up to the top of the fourth round for Williams.
I agree with Jimmy that DG had to have had a plan B for LT.
But consider the state of the OL by the time FA cam around that year.
The only Tackles on the roster were Flowers and Wheeler.
The only guard was Jerry.
The centers were Jones, and an idea that they can try to convert Halapio.
That's it.
To say the cupboard was bare is the understatement of the century.
The Giants had to be desperate just to get warm bodies in to play. And don't forget, Mara thought the Giants should be competitive.
Let that sink in. Those were the only OL on the team (besides a few UDFAs) and Mara thought the Giants should be able to make the playoffs. The self delusion was off the charts.
DG had to make a whole lotta chicken soup outta a few feathers.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.
I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.
It is true that the Eagles and Cowboys drafted better and that percolates into not having to overpay in FA. I don't think anyone suggests otherwise.
Maybe Solder was overpaid, but maybe not by so much that they can find someone better for less until some draft pick next year is ready to replace him. But that is a maybe and takes time to play out. With that, he's not getting cut this year or likely next, so restructure. I am not seeing the big fuss.
Who would not agree that Lauletta was a waste of a pick, or Webb, or Flowers ... nobody disputes that. We don't need to tilt at windmills...
You make the point as to why we have sucked, fair, and the only relevant thing is whether we are making smart decisions. You think this is a stupid one, I thing it is just not that big of a deal.
I think the extension of Solder, with no other plausible plan in place, is not bad for a year or two as you try to turn things around. By that time, the dollars lost down the road are just not going to be a factor.
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.
I'd rather comb my hair with a cheese-grater while I chew on tinfoil.
Anyway...I really wanted Aaron Donald that year, would've been happy with Zack Martin. I can kind of understand why Reese picked OBJ, though...kind of.
As I said, I liked Richburg, and it's no secret that I liked Jay Bromley, too. I thought he looked very good at the East-West game, and figured he'd be a nice consolation prize after not getting Donald. Most thought he was was a big reach, and in retrospect he probably was, but I loved his backstory, and there were a few others here who thought he'd at least turn into a capable role-player. Can't get 'em all right.
As for rest, weii, eesh. But a couple are still in the league...Kennard had a good year for Detroit last year.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.
Fans can be kinda dumb. The only reason why fans didn’t like Vernon was because of the contract. The only reason this thread is so active is because solder makes a lot of money. If you’d rather not have solder here this season is shit and shot before it starts. He’s a great locker room presence and won’t torpedo the season with his play. But he makes a lot of money. So what? They all do. Would you feel better if solder made 2-3 million less annually. Would that even make much of a difference.
It’s a weird obsession. Sometimes I get it, but cmon people. Deal with it.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.
I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.
Exactly, they draft better. That’s the crux of the issue and why the Giants are in the position they’re in — not only from a W-L perspective but from a cap perspective.
When you draft poorly you have money to burn in FA. Or you end up extending marginal players you drafted.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
The Eagles are in a playoff window and don't have the 4th lowest paid roster this season - that's what makes this frustrating. It's like Gettleman set out to pay off all his credit card debt and then immediately took a cash advance as soon as the payment posted to his account.
He didn’t give Solder a raise. There’s no new money. If the contract is going to be paid out, which it certainly looks that way given the depth behind him, it doesn’t matter.
This is a non-issue. The Giants will be operating with a clean slate next year and a ton of cap space.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.
Fans can be kinda dumb. The only reason why fans didn’t like Vernon was because of the contract. The only reason this thread is so active is because solder makes a lot of money.
Unequivocally untrue -- plenty of fans disliked Vernon's value because he was paid at a much higher rate than his value.
No matter how many times you repeat that value, allocation of resources, and cap space don't matter -- it doesn't make it true.
I'm thrilled Zeitler makes a lot of money he's really good. I'm glad Barkley makes a lot of money, he's fantastic. I hope Engram has a dynamite season and gets a big extension, he's super talented. I'm glad Shepard got a nice raise, he's a really reliable good player.
Want a kick to the nuts? Go back and re-watch that Giants draft special the year the Giants drafted Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Devon Kennard, and Bennett Jackson.
Like Klaatu, I wanted Donald or Zach Martin in that draft. Either would have been the type of trench pick the Giants have needed for a while. That said, OBJ did bring us both wins and some trade value when his time ran out with us.
In comment 14562490 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
was that when guys rush to the outside, he takes them behind the QB, and allows the QB to step up. However, with the interior jailbreaks last season (particularly in the first half), the pocket was always being pushed back instantly. So the QB had nowhere to step up and instead was retreating into Solder's blocking area. With a competent o-line, his play should be fine - not perfect but more than adequate.
Good observation. Halapio, Zeitler, and an improved Hernandez should be able to hold the middle.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Exactly right GD.
What we did was mortgage 5 mil out of our cap over the next 2 years.
And while that's not a huge amount, its these little bits here, and a little bit there. And suddenly you have 40 million that is constantly getting pushed every year, and as you push, you increase the likelihood that some of it becomes dead cap money. And before you know we are pushing 40 mil into next year and have 30 mil dead cap space. That is how we go into this mess with Reese & Co.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
Look, if you insist on displaying your inability to grasp the nuances of the salary cap, I'm happy to play the heel.
The Giants took $5M of cap space that was due to count this season and kicked half of it into each of the next two years. They literally borrowed cap space from the future to cover their anticipated in-season cap activity this year.
Converting salary to bonus in a vacuum is neither good nor bad, but when you do it in the middle of a rebuild because you overestimated your ability to absorb dead money, that's fundamentally the way that teams that are irresponsible with their cap operate.
If that's difficult for you to understand, please give me your address - I'll send you some crayons.
Oh, and they only ever restructured Eli's contract once, throughout his entire career, so I'm not sure where you got "from time to time."
Let me know if there's a brand you prefer besides Crayola.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
WV, yes and no.
The problem is that when you convert salary to bonus the cap hit gets spread across the remaining years of the contract (including the current year). This means that instead of the cap hit for ALL of his salary being taken this year, some is taken for the next two years.
This means that the available cap space is less in those two years. In this case, the Giants had about 62.5 million projected cap space next year. With this move they now have 60 million. If they end up signing players and taking and additional 60 million cap hit because of those signings, then they will have to restructure something again freeing up a little operating room.
That means mayber another 2.5 million pushed to the next 2 seasons. But the 2021 is already carrying an extra 2.5 million from this years restructure. So now the 2021 season is carrying an extra 5 million. As the years go by, you push more and more forward into the next year. Eventually you wind up in a permanent sliding cap hell, which is what we had under Reese.
Pushing money into the future is never a good thing, whether they play out the contract or not.
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
Look, if you insist on displaying your inability to grasp the nuances of the salary cap, I'm happy to play the heel.
The Giants took $5M of cap space that was due to count this season and kicked half of it into each of the next two years. They literally borrowed cap space from the future to cover their anticipated in-season cap activity this year.
Converting salary to bonus in a vacuum is neither good nor bad, but when you do it in the middle of a rebuild because you overestimated your ability to absorb dead money, that's fundamentally the way that teams that are irresponsible with their cap operate.
If that's difficult for you to understand, please give me your address - I'll send you some crayons.
Oh, and they only ever restructured Eli's contract once, throughout his entire career, so I'm not sure where you got "from time to time."
Let me know if there's a brand you prefer besides Crayola.
Again, wrong. Solder’s cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.
The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.
Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.
You’re engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.
The Giants didn’t add 5 mil to Solder’s cap hit. They didn’t lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they would’ve.
Again, wrong. Solder’s cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.
The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.
Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.
You’re engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.
The Giants didn’t add 5 mil to Solder’s cap hit. They didn’t lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they would’ve.
Sorry WV, now you are flat out wrong.
Did you read my post above?
The moved 5 million of THIS year's cap hit to the next 2 years. So now Solder's cap hit next year is 2.5 million more, as is the year after that.
The sum of all his money didn't change, but the year in which the team takes the cap hit most definitely did change.
Again, wrong. Solder’s cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.
The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.
Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.
You’re engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.
The Giants didn’t add 5 mil to Solder’s cap hit. They didn’t lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they would’ve.
Sorry WV, now you are flat out wrong.
Did you read my post above?
The moved 5 million of THIS year's cap hit to the next 2 years. So now Solder's cap hit next year is 2.5 million more, as is the year after that.
The sum of all his money didn't change, but the year in which the team takes the cap hit most definitely did change.
The issue is not just if he gets injured (which is the worst case scenario). Pushing the cap hit off to the next year is like a snow plow pushing snow. Push too much and it just keeps building up in front of the plow until you can't push it any more.
Actually you’re right, I’m wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
Actually you’re right, I’m wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.
But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.
Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.
But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
Really hard to be in a good cap position when you don't draft well. Begins with that. Having to sign free agents when you already have drafted poorly at the same position. Kills your cap space.
Actually you’re right, I’m wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.
But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.
Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.
But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
I think the problem with front loading deals is that it makes the player more likely to hold out for a raise on the backend. This happened with Osi. They only see what their paycheck is going to be, not what they’ve already been paid.
Actually you’re right, I’m wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.
But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.
Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.
But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
I think the problem with front loading deals is that it makes the player more likely to hold out for a raise on the backend. This happened with Osi. They only see what their paycheck is going to be, not what they’ve already been paid.
This is a great point, which does lead to a careful balance between managing your cap in the present and future in a responsible manner while also keeping a carrot in front of players who need that to stay focused and motivated.
Drafting well is only part of it. Of course you'd like a stable of young, high character, cheap players. But realistically and statistically a good draft nets 3 starters.
Over a competitive window you'll need to draft well and then sign your own and other UFAs. Those good players you drafted can cost as much as players from other teams. Every bad dollar spent, is money you don't have.
Fans act like a team can control who becomes available or what resources the competition has -- you can't. That's why saving every dollar you can is crucial.
Lots of fans are all excited about this coming UFA season because Giants have 62M. But who's available? How much does the competition have? Look that up, and you might be less excited.
Hint, the Giants would be way better positioned with more money.
General management requires consistency in philosophy. Good GMs pick guys who fit the tactical and character goals of the team AND don't go over slot for them.
The last 2 GMs have made cardinal sins:
1) Reese gave up financial and character prudence because Mara gave him the fix it or else ultimatum
2) Gettleman overpaid to try and stabilize the team and fix the locker room, and has overpaid for good guys who are average players
Annual Cap is big enough to make some free agent splashes Â
and deal with injuries. It is not big enough to overcome years of bad drafting in combination with the two other items.
We all know, DG inherited a wealth of issues and we are digging out of them. Still some really big holes to fix and a team that has got to start finding its way in the NFL and particularly within the division.
Easier to see Giants playing better this versus playing well.
The biggest topic on our horizon as fans is the transition of the QB...
Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.
They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.
If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.
As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
Agreed, and to your point above. Having, now, 60 million against the cap next year, puts the Giants in the middle of the pack, league average is about 56 million.
Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.
They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.
If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.
As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
Agreed, and to your point above. Having, now, 60 million against the cap next year, puts the Giants in the middle of the pack, league average is about 56 million.
Yup -- importantly it's 60M out of 1.7B in open space.
The Giants are an average team with average cap space.
The idea they can be cavalier with any of their resources is one of the truly hilarious and flat out wrong takes by fans.
The Giants need to be much, much better at allocating money.
They aren't going to be picking in the top 10 next year, and they don't have any more good players to trade.
Gettleman must make every dollar count.
If Amari Cooper has his way with J Jenkins later today Â
All teams incur dead money hits and in this case, UNLESS DG MAKES THIS A TREND, not a concern at all..We’ll be fine (great?) with the cap moving forward
All teams incur dead money hits and in this case, UNLESS DG MAKES THIS A TREND, not a concern at all..We’ll be fine (great?) with the cap moving forward
The Giants aren't all teams -- they have operated with substantial dead money this and last year to the tune of 77M dollars. For arguments sake let's put that 100% on Reese. And the reason was bad contracts, right?
So next year, the unequivocal reality is the Giants aren't in great cap shape, they are in average cap shape.
Is Solder a good contract? Forget about why he was signed and any justifications, just simply is he under a good contract?
And again for arguments sake say 32-year-old Nate Solder going into his 10th year in the NFL, has shown signs of slipping for 2 straight years (same exact age David Diehl fell apart) -- and the Giants decide 19.5M is not just a bad value, but an unacceptable value.
The Giants are left eating 13.5M to save 6M. Seems a lot like what Gettleman was doing to clean up for Reese to me.
Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Chances are that Tate may be the only one left standing. All of these guys have targets on their backs
And that'll be another round of dead money if/when those cuts occur.
Yet another example of the consistent irresponsibility in our cap management - you want your players to play out their full contracts, because not only does that usually mean they're a player of enough value that they deserved to be a mainstay on your roster, but you also qualify for a potential compensatory pick if your players sign with another team after reaching free agency without being released. Teams like the Patriots and Eagles understand this and have successfully worked the comp pick system for years.
Those extra picks obviously let you load your roster with more preferred talent at a significant bargain rate. Cutting guys typically leaves you with dead money and now an additional need to expend finite resources, either through the draft or free agency.
It is a systemic flaw in the way the Giants approach roster construction and cap management.
Dunk, do you think that Gettleman has made a shift Â
and is working to change our dealings around the cap, or that it will be more of the same for us down the line.
I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.
He definitely seems to value compensatory picks more than Reese did and the early returns on his draft picks have largely been a massive improvement vs. Reese. That alone will help dramatically - amassing young, cheap talent (that is actually talented) affords you so much more margin for error with the cap.
That said, I do still think there are enough indications so far that Gettleman might have some of his own weaknesses with the cap. The optimist in me hopes that's just a byproduct of the Reese mess, and that a better overall roster might help avoid those no-win decisions and thus preclude Gettleman from even being in a situation that could expose what appears to be his weak spot as it relates to the cap.
The cynic in me wonders how much of this is really just due to Abrams to the extent that the same neverending cycle of middling cap space and absorbing dead money to clear cap room is something we saw consistently through Reese's tenure, and Abrams is the executive in the same role for both GMs.
RE: RE: Dunk, do you think that Gettleman has made a shift Â
and is working to change our dealings around the cap, or that it will be more of the same for us down the line.
I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.
He definitely seems to value compensatory picks more than Reese did and the early returns on his draft picks have largely been a massive improvement vs. Reese. That alone will help dramatically - amassing young, cheap talent (that is actually talented) affords you so much more margin for error with the cap.
That said, I do still think there are enough indications so far that Gettleman might have some of his own weaknesses with the cap. The optimist in me hopes that's just a byproduct of the Reese mess, and that a better overall roster might help avoid those no-win decisions and thus preclude Gettleman from even being in a situation that could expose what appears to be his weak spot as it relates to the cap.
The cynic in me wonders how much of this is really just due to Abrams to the extent that the same neverending cycle of middling cap space and absorbing dead money to clear cap room is something we saw consistently through Reese's tenure, and Abrams is the executive in the same role for both GMs.
Well said, my feelings exactly.
I am cautiously optimistic that the improved drafting will prevent a horrible cap mess. But, that's about it, can't say I am confident.
If you need to see what $35M in dead money looks like, Â
This is it. Remember that when you hit your knees tonight and worship the mediocrity of our cap guru, the immortal Kevin Abrams. I'm sure some of you still think he's fine (great?) in his role.
Here's the bright side: you might never again have to stay up past your bedtime on draft night so long as he's our cap guy.
Does Abrams choose or influence roster and drafting ?
Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?
And since transitioning from Reese to Gettleman, the choices that theoretically precede Abrams’ involvement have mostly been better but the systemic cap management habits have remained the same. I suppose that’s a very feasible coincidence given the shared pedigree of Reese and Gettleman, but Occam’s Razor makes Abrams a more likely consideration.
@TomPelissero
The #Giants, who entered the week with the NFL’s least cap space, cleared $5 million by doing a simple restructure on LT Nate Solder’s contract, converting $7.5M of his base salary to a fully guaranteed roster bonus. Cash stays the same: $13M in 2019 and 2020, $14M in 2021.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
Yes, they do need to draft some tackles.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
I feel like there are better candidates to make this move with. Zeitler is locked up and young, although there may be limits to how much you can convert as a percentage of salary.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
Quote:
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
We have 8 mil of dead cap from Vernon this year.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
Exactly
I know you're joking, but from a pure And contract perspective leveraging Eli's contract would've made the most sense.
Quote:
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
Lol - this literally a symptom of that problem.
Jenkins, who's arguably coming of a year where he was the worst starting corner in the NFL is making 14.75M, Vernon is costing the Giants 8M as a Brown.
The Giants are putting the 4th fewest dollars on the field in the NFL this year, and just had to borrow against the future to operate this year.
He is not getting any more money. But he will be harder to part ways with if he doesn't live up to the contract.
It seems laughable now that the narrative was "Getty doesn't know what he is doing and he is flying by the seat of his pants"
Every move seems like it has multiple folds and layers to it: we let Collins walk "for free" (but we actually got his trade value in a comp pick FOR FREE with no cap hit).
"We didn't get enough for OBJ" even though the Steelers got a fraction of that for Antonio Brown and Beckham is looking like a headache before his first snap.
Every 'bad move' the Giants make look better and better as time goes on.
When tbe analytics say that DBs are more important than EDGE he drafts a bunch of solid DBs while goofing on guys that focus on analytics.
Maybe I am crazy but I feel like there is a clear vision of what this team should be for yhe first time in a long time. And I feel like we have a competant captain steering the ship.
It is year 2 of a 3 year rebuild but I can see what Getty is trying to do and I am on-board with this roster contruction. Ignore the sound bytes and he is looking like one of thd most consistent and coherant GMs in the league.
Would folks here preferred if we kept Vernon (and OBJ for that matter). It’s the cost of doing business when you’re rebuilding a roster.
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
What veterans are still out there worth the freed money?
Yep probably after the first game
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
For starters, Signing then trading Odell
Quote:
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
clueless post...
Quote:
In comment 14562095 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
I'm talking about specifically this year. They went too far up to the edge of the cap, and to correct it they're giving more guaranteed money to someone who has done nothing to earn it. I don't see how that's good management.
All due respect, but IMO this is no big deal.
The one move worthy of questioning is the OBJ deal...paying him before trading him. We’re eating the dead cap on that this year ($16 million)
Some signings like Martin and Ogletree were overpays, but they’re cuttable next year without that big of a cap hit. Omameh was a terrible signing, $3 million dead cap for him this year.
Solder’s deal was always better to get out of after 2020 anyway, pushing more of his hit to next year doesn’t really hamstring us much.
Most important moves have been moving on from JPP and Vernon, who are good players but weren’t producing to the level of their deals. Those cap hits are both gone after this season.
That’s why I think the Giants are doing a good job, they haven’t hamstrung us for future years beyond this year.
Of course, Eli coming off after this year helps...plus have to park money for a monster Saquon deal before too long
Quote:
for the vet signing.
What veterans are still out there worth the freed money?
It's not necesssrily about the cap space next year. No one wants to see a repeat of 2016 where we pay out 200 million dollars to free agents that werent retained by their team.
We can make 1 or 2 big splash signings, maybe an edge guy or a star OL.
The big deal is we can extend Saquon, Engram, Hernandez before they think about walking and still roll over enough money to pay guys like Daniel Jones and DeAndre Baker and Dex Lawrence if they play like we think they will. All of this on front loaded contracts that give you flexibility and minimal dead cap money looking forward.
Don't expect to build a 'dream team' in FA in 2020, but with continued success in the draft we can carry a superstar roster that has been built through the draft for 3-5 years.
Quote:
his contract. Vernon's dead money absolutely does. People are acting like Vegas has us as 10 win team, we lead the league in dead cap space. Dead money correlates strongly with losing football.
Would folks here preferred if we kept Vernon (and OBJ for that matter). It’s the cost of doing business when you’re rebuilding a roster.
No one is arguing rebuilding was a bad move, it's a response to the repeated assertions from a few that there aren't consequences to bad cap management.
Adding guaranteed money to an already expensive, older player is exactly what you have to do when you're in a tight situation.
Signing relatively average players to expensive deals like Solder, Ogletree and Tate are probably examples of what not to do. Particularly if they are average AND older (like Solder and Tate).
Quote:
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
I feel like there are better candidates to make this move with. Zeitler is locked up and young, although there may be limits to how much you can convert as a percentage of salary.
They restructured Zeitler after the trade. His cap hit is only $5M this year.
More likely the opposite since 99% of deals have low first year cap hits...
You are absolutely correct.
This is because we're still paying for Reese's mistakes (particularly the awful drafts). The $11M in dead money for Vernon/Snacks is on Reese and to some extent Beckham's $16M (granted DG re-signed him). But we had to sign Solder and Omameh due to the state of the OL.
Hopefully DG manages things better going forward and so far it looks like the 2 drafts will help.
But I would argue it was a necessary signing, given the state of our OL at the end of the Reese/Ross era. Anyone who disagrees, fine...who else should we have signed?
We could have drafted Ramczyk instead of Engram 2 years ago...but Reese and Ross in all their wisdom disagreed.
We all hope the Giants can find our version of Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, etc in the draft soon. But until that day comes, nobody is finding even a serviceable left tackle on the discount rack.
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
The Giants drafted very well the last two Aprils. That's an important start.
Free agents, extensions, and trades have been another story, though.
I'm actually not extremely excited about all the 2020 cap space if it means more Stewart/Tate/Ogletree/Solder-type acquisitions.
The Giants had a bunch of cap room going into 2016 and clearly used it to varying success.
The Giants under the successful Accorsi/Reese years had a really nice balance of UFAs and good drafts. They never had a windfall, but always spent right up to the cap.
In retrospect it's quite cool how good the Giants were from 2005-2012.
I agree with you but we also have to remember that the Giants drafted Eli under the old rookie pay scale. They didn’t have a 5 year window to spend on other positions because their rookie QB was being paid well below market value. Eli was among the highest paid players in the league right out of the gate.
But I would argue it was a necessary signing, given the state of our OL at the end of the Reese/Ross era. Anyone who disagrees, fine...who else should we have signed?
We could have drafted Ramczyk instead of Engram 2 years ago...but Reese and Ross in all their wisdom disagreed.
We all hope the Giants can find our version of Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, etc in the draft soon. But until that day comes, nobody is finding even a serviceable left tackle on the discount rack.
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
We keep hearing that EVERY YEAR. "The Giants were FORCED to over-pay! What else could they have done?"
Then we get stuck with huge cap hits from guys like Damon Harrison, Vernon Olivier, etc. - players who eventually the fan base (and team) turns on and they get released with dead money. Solder is going to get cut at some point (perhaps sooner than folks realize) because his huge cap hit won't be justified by his deteriorating play.
What should the Giants have done? Well, draft better. But since they screwed that up, bite the bullet, play a scrub, and keep their financial house in order.
We were "forced" to sign Solder? For what? The benefit of last year's 4th-place finish?
But 2020 appears to be different in scale... much of which because Eli will be off of the books.
You seem like you have a better solution and are so confident that anyone else is wrong to the point of put down for speaking
Ok specifically what you would have done ? with whom? and for how much?
Thanks for sharing the superior solution that you seem to know
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
Meh, the team that we signed Solder away from was able to address the position by trading a midround pick for Trent Brown. They won the SB and let him walk for a future comp pick.
We were in a bad spot with limited options but you don't have to look far to see a team that did better by taking an alternate route.
There's so much money in play next year, don't be surprised if the 62M the Giants have doesn't get much.
Quote:
and the 2020 draft is already time to start looking for his replacement.
But I would argue it was a necessary signing, given the state of our OL at the end of the Reese/Ross era. Anyone who disagrees, fine...who else should we have signed?
We could have drafted Ramczyk instead of Engram 2 years ago...but Reese and Ross in all their wisdom disagreed.
We all hope the Giants can find our version of Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, etc in the draft soon. But until that day comes, nobody is finding even a serviceable left tackle on the discount rack.
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
We keep hearing that EVERY YEAR. "The Giants were FORCED to over-pay! What else could they have done?"
Then we get stuck with huge cap hits from guys like Damon Harrison, Vernon Olivier, etc. - players who eventually the fan base (and team) turns on and they get released with dead money. Solder is going to get cut at some point (perhaps sooner than folks realize) because his huge cap hit won't be justified by his deteriorating play.
What should the Giants have done? Well, draft better. But since they screwed that up, bite the bullet, play a scrub, and keep their financial house in order.
We were "forced" to sign Solder? For what? The benefit of last year's 4th-place finish?
Giants need to draft better - we all agree on that. Early returns positive from last 2 drafts so far.
Don’t overpay a guy like Solder and let a scrub play LT last season? OK...but consider the kind of scrubs we’re talking about. This team only moved Flowers to RT after signing Solder, for crying out loud. Maybe we could have found a better “scrub” option that Flowers, without paying what we did, but considering how many teams are desperate for OL help, it’s hard to say.
Solder is a grossly overpaid stop gap until we find a better long term solution at LT. But at least Eli (and eventually Jones) won’t get killed between now and then.
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
$60 million with like 30 pending free agents. That $60 million won’t go as far as you think.
If they were concerned about cap space they could have just cut zei and resigned him back cheaper like the Browns did with Robinso .
Quote:
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
This is because we're still paying for Reese's mistakes (particularly the awful drafts). The $11M in dead money for Vernon/Snacks is on Reese and to some extent Beckham's $16M (granted DG re-signed him). But we had to sign Solder and Omameh due to the state of the OL.
Hopefully DG manages things better going forward and so far it looks like the 2 drafts will help.
Reese didn’t sign Omameh and Stewart and cut them after a year. Or extend and then trade Odell. Or over pay Solder. Or trade for and extend Ogletree.
But 2020 appears to be different in scale... much of which because Eli will be off of the books.
Right now there is $1.7B of available cap room in the NFL just in 2020.
The Giants hold $62M of that -- I think fans will be disappointed in the buying power the Giants hold, and especially on who is available.
Quote:
In comment 14562095 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
$60 million with like 30 pending free agents. That $60 million won’t go as far as you think.
If they were concerned about cap space they could have just cut zei and resigned him back cheaper like the Browns did with Robinso .
Take a look at the player salary page and look at the guys with no contract past this year. Which guys are we spending significant money on to bring back?
Could the Giants have done a lot worse than Solder last year? Hell yes. But so what? The Giants finished 4th place in the division. And Solder won't be the guy who will be protecting Daniel Jones' blindside in a couple of years.
Fans keep asking, "Why do the Cowboys and Eagles have so much cap room?"
The answer is right in front of you.
But what you do is use that money to keep your own players.
Draft well, re-sign your draft picks, sprinkle in some free agents. Maybe you get lucky and get another Kareem McKenzie or Antonio Pierce.
Quote:
In comment 14562109 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14562095 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
$60 million with like 30 pending free agents. That $60 million won’t go as far as you think.
If they were concerned about cap space they could have just cut zei and resigned him back cheaper like the Browns did with Robinso .
Take a look at the player salary page and look at the guys with no contract past this year. Which guys are we spending significant money on to bring back?
The point isn’t who we’ll bring back the point is there will be a lot of holes to fill.
I hope he rebounds this year, but he almost got Jones killed in the Cincy game.
But what you do is use that money to keep your own players.
Draft well, re-sign your draft picks, sprinkle in some free agents. Maybe you get lucky and get another Kareem McKenzie or Antonio Pierce.
I completely agree. The player I hope is worth extending after this year is Engram. Shepard is locked-up, and there aren't many UFAs on the roster, and Barkley cannot be extended yet.
Could the Giants have done a lot worse than Solder last year? Hell yes. But so what? The Giants finished 4th place in the division. And Solder won't be the guy who will be protecting Daniel Jones' blindside in a couple of years.
Fans keep asking, "Why do the Cowboys and Eagles have so much cap room?"
The answer is right in front of you.
Would tanking a couple more seasons while not overpaying for average players like Solder, Ogletree, Kareem Martin, and some others while preserving cap space been better for the long term? Sure.
My original point in this discussion is despite overpaying for some middling stop gaps to make the team more competitive, we haven’t really hamstrung the cap after this season. That’s why I make the case DG and Abrams have done good work.
What do we all really want? A perennial super bowl contender. How does that get built? Strong drafting over several years - like we did from 2004-2010. Or 1979-1989. On that we all agree.
These stop-gap measures never have sat well with me. With the Giants and football, and in other sports with New York teams. There is a certain basketball team in the metropolitan area that has never learned this lesson.
You seem like you have a better solution and are so confident that anyone else is wrong to the point of put down for speaking
Ok specifically what you would have done ? with whom? and for how much?
Thanks for sharing the superior solution that you seem to know
Don't be an ass.
Realize the team wasn't anywhere ready to win so what the hell is the point in creating the most expensive paid Left Tackle in history for a slightly above average left tackle? Sorry it went hand in hand with other strategies including keeping immobile Eli in place and drafting a RB with #2 creating a massive need to put an experienced LT in place, but those are the choices made.
Solder was not a signing that made sense in my opinion.
Quote:
a
That’s why bellyaching over the Solder deal isn’t worth it. IMO
Meh, the team that we signed Solder away from was able to address the position by trading a midround pick for Trent Brown. They won the SB and let him walk for a future comp pick.
We were in a bad spot with limited options but you don't have to look far to see a team that did better by taking an alternate route.
Nobody argues that we didn't overpay Solder?? You want me to go pull up the archived thread the week we signed him...
These stop-gap measures never have sat well with me. With the Giants and football, and in other sports with New York teams. There is a certain basketball team in the metropolitan area that has never learned this lesson.
I agree, the Giants were a mess because of poor drafting which means they have to overspend in free agency to address holes. They need to not only continue to draft well as they have two years in a row, they also need to make wise personnel decisions.
The Patriots are able to let key players like Solder leave because of their ability to find suitable, cheaper options. It’s not just identifying talent, you also need the coaching staff to coach them up into contributors. The Giants appear to have done better in this regard lately with Halapio, Haley, Davis, Hill, Carter, Fowler, etc.
These stop-gap measures never have sat well with me. With the Giants and football, and in other sports with New York teams. There is a certain basketball team in the metropolitan area that has never learned this lesson.
Well let’s also acknowledge the elephant in the room - the Giants wanted to try and be competitive again for Eli’s last couple seasons. Foolish? Maybe. Many have made that argument, and it’s not without some merit.
But let’s not compare the Giants to the Knicks. Giants had about 6-7 years of lousy drafts, and have mostly sucked because of it since our last SB in 2011.
But that’s a far cry from trading #1 picks for Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Andrez Bargnani, etc etc etc.
But if they could go back a year, I'm not sure they sign Solder.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
Knows the NFC East well with his years in DC. Led the Redskins in tackles last year and wore the helmet mic.
He is 30. Not a long term solution, but has great value as a Week 2 vet signing.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.
Knows the NFC East well with his years in DC. Led the Redskins in tackles last year and wore the helmet mic.
He is 30. Not a long term solution, but has great value as a Week 2 vet signing.
Hopefully he will take Stupar's roster spot.
"Kind-of" restructuring doesn't work...
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
You seem to like cap discussions to be zero sum, hyperbole. No one is saying it's the end of the world.
It's the aggregate of short sighted signings from both Reese and Gettleman that assuaged an immediate itch, but don't point toward a championship.
As a fan I'm sick of hearing about acquisitions because of stabilization, culture, locker room, why not?, anything other than we expect this guy to be a part of the roster when we raise the next trophy.
Solder stumbled through a 5 win season. I hope he and the team do much better. But this "what would we have done in place of him" starts to sound like Maugham's Verger.
That’s because for a stretch there the Giants actually drafted well. It costs money to acquire and retain the OL they had. Guys like Tiki, Shockey, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Plax, Nicks, Cruz, etc cost money to keep.
The Giants are paying the piper this year for all of the mistakes of the prior regime. They started the process last year with JPP and a few other guys.
The dead cap situation obviously sucks this year but it was necessary for a hard reset on the roster. Moving forward Solder is the only questionable contract on the roster. That’s a healthy position to be in.
Quote:
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
That’s because for a stretch there the Giants actually drafted well. It costs money to acquire and retain the OL they had. Guys like Tiki, Shockey, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Plax, Nicks, Cruz, etc cost money to keep.
The Giants are paying the piper this year for all of the mistakes of the prior regime. They started the process last year with JPP and a few other guys.
The dead cap situation obviously sucks this year but it was necessary for a hard reset on the roster. Moving forward Solder is the only questionable contract on the roster. That’s a healthy position to be in.
We would be in a healthy position if this was our cap situation with a talented roster. But this cap situation with the talent level we have is not an enviable position
The Solder decision would’ve never happened if Reese did his job. He passed on Tunsil. He passed on Ramcyk. He passed on Whitworth in FA because Flowers was his boy and he wanted to “get younger.” There were plenty of opportunities staring Reese right in the face up until the very end.
Did Gettleman overpay for Solder? Probably. But it’s an understandable overpay given the circumstances at the time the decision was made.
Solder wasn’t acquired as the missing piece to a championship team. He was a solid building block to an OL that was in ruins.
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
Quote:
In comment 14562180 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
No argument here, but it was also going on as far back as Ernie Accorsi. 2020 is going to be the first time that I can recall that the Giants are going to have a bunch of cap room. How long has the cap been in place? Two decades?
That’s because for a stretch there the Giants actually drafted well. It costs money to acquire and retain the OL they had. Guys like Tiki, Shockey, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Plax, Nicks, Cruz, etc cost money to keep.
The Giants are paying the piper this year for all of the mistakes of the prior regime. They started the process last year with JPP and a few other guys.
The dead cap situation obviously sucks this year but it was necessary for a hard reset on the roster. Moving forward Solder is the only questionable contract on the roster. That’s a healthy position to be in.
We would be in a healthy position if this was our cap situation with a talented roster. But this cap situation with the talent level we have is not an enviable position
Another strong draft in 20 along with a smart FA period and no one will be crying about the talent level.
Irrelevant regarding the Pats. He didn't make financial sense for Giants.
I also chuckle at the poster comments stating "who else would be playing LT for Giants if not Solder?". Are you suggesting Gettleman was backed into corner that if he didn't get Solder there was no backup plan...at all? Gee, can't understand why he must have cost so much...
Do not believe that is true. Solder made a comment to the effect that he had received another offer that was just as good and some people interpreted that as coming from the Patriots.
But the Texans were also heavily in on him and my recollection is that the better info was that they were the source of the deal Solder was referring to.
I know the fans/asshats on the Pats board discounted the notion that the Pats would make such an offer.
This is why I don't share the same optimism a lot of BBI has. Everyone seems to believe things have drastically changed since Coughlin then Reese were relieved of their duties. I see a lot of the same mistakes, from a core front office that has retained quite a few people from when Reese was here.
This is just more proof - overpay for a mediocre FA, then restructure to make sure he's around for a few more years. Abrams has been managing the Giants cap for a long time, his fingerprints are all over this one and he's rumored to be the heir apparent after Gettleman is gone.
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
The Giants have 34 mil in dead money and about 30 of that is Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, and Apple. All underperforming Reese guys who were a part of the problem for this team.
It’s not death by a million cuts. It’s the byproduct of turning over Reese’s loser roster.
This has been litigated to death on BBI. The Patriots were dead in the middle of a championship run, huge difference in situations. Solder would not have been learning a new system on a 5 win team.
But of course the Pats didn't cave to Solder's preferred structure, which was speculated to be all guarantees at signing.
And of course the Pats played it perfectly, waited for the draft, traded a mid-round pick for a better, younger player, won another ring, and will recoup a higher pick in compensation.
Quote:
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
The Giants have 34 mil in dead money and about 30 of that is Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, and Apple. All underperforming Reese guys who were a part of the problem for this team.
It’s not death by a million cuts. It’s the byproduct of turning over Reese’s loser roster.
That was super crazy when Reese made Gettleman sign Beckham to that huge extension, right?
Quote:
The Stewart signing won’t kill us
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
The Giants have 34 mil in dead money and about 30 of that is Beckham, Vernon, Snacks, and Apple. All underperforming Reese guys who were a part of the problem for this team.
It’s not death by a million cuts. It’s the byproduct of turning over Reese’s loser roster.
You can’t put OBJ on Reese. Getts gave him the contract that is hurting the team.
Solder's restructure won't affect that. But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
And example 1,000,001 of fans not realizing how the cap works but feeling the need to defend the move.
The Giants just borrowed $2.5M of 2020 and 2021 cap space to do this. All we did was effectively push some of this year's dead money forward over the next two seasons because we bit off more than we could chew with dead money this season.
It's zero sum.
Quote:
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
And example 1,000,002.
Quote:
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
Agreed. Add top ILB to that list and I think we're set. No need for a great WR -- see New England.
Quote:
In comment 14562109 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14562095 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
but because now the Giants have mismanaged their cap he has to be overpaid even more?
How have the Giants mismanaged their cap? Looking at over $60 million of cap space next year, and as of right now the biggest dead money on the books would be Lauletta at about $350k.
Guys like Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison can be cut with significant cap savings and modest dead cap hit next year.
Thankfully, DG and Abrams are a lot smarter that most of you about how this works.
I'm talking about specifically this year. They went too far up to the edge of the cap, and to correct it they're giving more guaranteed money to someone who has done nothing to earn it. I don't see how that's good management.
All due respect, but IMO this is no big deal.
The one move worthy of questioning is the OBJ deal...paying him before trading him. We’re eating the dead cap on that this year ($16 million)
Some signings like Martin and Ogletree were overpays, but they’re cuttable next year without that big of a cap hit. Omameh was a terrible signing, $3 million dead cap for him this year.
Solder’s deal was always better to get out of after 2020 anyway, pushing more of his hit to next year doesn’t really hamstring us much.
Most important moves have been moving on from JPP and Vernon, who are good players but weren’t producing to the level of their deals. Those cap hits are both gone after this season.
That’s why I think the Giants are doing a good job, they haven’t hamstrung us for future years beyond this year.
Of course, Eli coming off after this year helps...plus have to park money for a monster Saquon deal before too long
You don't know what you're talking about. The Giants just borrowed from 2020 and 2021 to cover a chunk of that dead money because they took on too much this year.
Quote:
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.
This is because we're still paying for Reese's mistakes (particularly the awful drafts). The $11M in dead money for Vernon/Snacks is on Reese and to some extent Beckham's $16M (granted DG re-signed him). But we had to sign Solder and Omameh due to the state of the OL.
Hopefully DG manages things better going forward and so far it looks like the 2 drafts will help.
There is no fucking way short of willful ignorance that you can pin OBJ's dead money on Reese. None.
The Solder restructure basically shows us two things. First it gives the team operating capital in case of injuries. Don't forget anything not used will get rolled back into next year's cap. Second they must draft Solder's replacement in 2020/2021 as his cap number in 2021(according to OTC.com) is $6.5 million with a savings of $14 million if he's cut.
As long as this regime continues to draft well (showing on the field not on paper) and utilizing free agency to augment the drafted talent they are on the right track. If they use free agency to build the team and buy depth then they will continue on the same roller coaster ride with no way to get off
Quote:
In comment 14562029 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
Example 1,000,000 of why it’s not worth getting worked up over cap space this time of year.
Remember how badly Oliver Vernon and jackrabbit’s money was going to kill us? Especially Vernon... people acted like this deal was going to lead to nyg bankruptcy.
And example 1,000,002.
It's as if the Giants are coming off 3 & 5 win seasons and are putting the 4th fewest dollars in the entire NFL this year on the field because of a magical genie and not bad management.
Only the most diehard anti-Beckham people on this site would’ve applauded not giving Beckham the contract at the time the Giants agreed to an extension. There’s no telling what his trade value would’ve been coming off an injury without an extension.
It’s easy for random posters to trash Gettleman for Beckham’s dead money and MMQB the situation, but I seriously doubt anyone here would’ve had the balls to let him walk or trade him for pennies on the dollar. I doubt most here would’ve had the balls to trade him to Cleveland after the extension.
Reese did that time after time. He kept using 2nd round picks to replace players who'd been 2nd round picks a few years earlier. But DG isn't Reese. Hopefully he will draft well enough that at some point soon draft choices will replace our high ticket FAs. It's started already with the trades of Harrison and Vernon and our not signing Collins.
It all comes down to our ability to draft well. We'll see about that, but the results these first two years re encouraging.
There is nothing good about bad contracts.
Any explanation and rationale that isn't about the guy playing above or near to the value of his deal is absolutely dopey.
If the Giants need to overpay players to "stabilize" the team, improve the culture, or teach younger players -- they need to take a hard fucking look at the coaching staff.
I know. It's been going on for years. And yet there are still fans who not only think that the Giants do an acceptable job, but a GOOD job of cap management.
Everyone waits for the cap to catch up with teams like the old Redskins regime that signed every big name free agent, but as long as you take your medicine and don't constantly kick the can down the road, you can get out from under a shitty cap situation fairly quickly.
But that's not the Giants way, not under Reese, and so far, not under Gettleman. People want to pin some of Gettleman's moves on Reese, that's fine. But hopefully they realize that $20M of the ~$35M in dead money that the Giants are carrying this year is due to contracts that Gettleman himself handed out (most notably Beckham and Omameh), not Reese.
Just to be clear, I think Gettleman is doing better than Reese (hard not to). His drafts look much better. His free agent decisions have not been as good.
I don't know if you saw my argument on Twitter with Paul Dottino this morning when he called Gettleman "crafty" for restructuring Solder. I wouldn't use the word "crafty". Deferring cap pain because of previous screw ups is not "crafty."
Quote:
In comment 14562328 yatqb said:
Quote:
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
Agreed. Add top ILB to that list and I think we're set. No need for a great WR -- see New England.
Yep...we see eye-to-eye on next steps
The ass is the guy who substitutes posting the general fog of shit when they are put on the spot and cant answer the question.
What would you...you...the great Jimmy Googs do in specific...or just acknowledge you are a blowhard?
Go for it smart ass.
You wont but its ok. We all already know that in life you substitute verbal aggression so no one sees into the gaps and holes.
Now go complain to gidie like you did earlier this week.
Tell him you don't like it when you get exposed as a low life asswipe.
Quote:
But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.
Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...
I think it is. I hope they double-up on OT's in the 2020 draft (even triple-up, as they did with CB's this year, adding a decent C/OG prospect). Of course it all depends on how the whole thing shakes out, where they're picking, who's available, and how they've graded each prospect. The best value might be at ER/OLB or WR early on. Personally, I'd look for an ILB and FS in free agency.
All other moves?
More weak sauce from a low end poster
If success is to just keep substituting for Reese's mistakes -- couldn't have ya know, Reese kept just doing that?
Gettleman has made a number of really high conviction moves; Jones, Barkley, trading Vernon, trading Beckham, trading JPP. I bet those end up really good moves.
Doesn't absolve him or make his missteps Reese's fault. That's chickenshit.
But, I would point out that I never ever responded to Jimmy Googs except on this thread and got the response I got
So the other possibility is that you tolerate a bad poster or you don't see the bad posters in your midst
There is no secret sauce to building a roster, but I can tell you going into free agency and saying if I don't pay Solder that highest contract in OL History then we won't have a left tackle next season sounds ridiculous.
Happy to go back and forth on this but don't think you are in a state of mind to reasonably care. I called you an ass above because your post needlessly called out Eric and I as acting superior.
Your follow on posts tell me I was correct...
But, I would point out that I never ever responded to Jimmy Googs except on this thread and got the response I got
So the other possibility is that you tolerate a bad poster or you don't see the bad posters in your midst
There are plenty of abrasive people like Jimmy Googs on this site, some quite popular. If I banned people for being abrasive or having unpopular views, this place would be pretty boring.
I suggest the two of you stop interacting with each other.
I certainly can live without exchanges with Jimmy Googs
Just to be clear, I think Gettleman is doing better than Reese (hard not to). His drafts look much better. His free agent decisions have not been as good.
I don't know if you saw my argument on Twitter with Paul Dottino this morning when he called Gettleman "crafty" for restructuring Solder. I wouldn't use the word "crafty". Deferring cap pain because of previous screw ups is not "crafty."
Dottino blocked me last year for commenting about him claiming Webb was the heir apparent so I didn't see it.
I said the same thing to your wife, and she said, "Who the hell are you and how did you get in here?"
Because it is equally irresponsible to defend Gettleman as it is to attack him without putting out a specific action plan
See, it is easy to attack afterwards.
Its hard to put down an inferior choice when there are no good choices
We have heard about this for 2 years...so where was the alternative choice that was superior
Its easy to attack. Its easy to attack in a vaccum. You don't have to produce an answer which can be second guessed.
Can you advance the discussion ? advance a superior insight ?
or not?
Show us what you got?
Acting superior is knocking it without an alternative
So I gave you a chance to actually BE Superior
Instead you attacked another poster on another thread on another day with attitude not insight or intellect. Does not fool anyone
So go for it. Back it up or let my comment stand as factual. Superior or acting superior?
Except it's not revisionist when some of us criticized the signing at the time.
Let's be frank... Solder hasn't been very good. He's been average at best and at times, not good. Even Sy has picked up on it.
How many other teams needed a LT?
Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?
Sure I do.
The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
That is not on Gettleman
What is on Gettleman is not getting a way out by now
So imo, both things are true:
1) Solder was an ok gamble he had more to give at a time when there was not any alternative that made a QB transition a less risky proposition ( from what we see so far)
2) Not more aggressively attacking the problem of being over the barrel on Offensive Tackles is on Gettleman and we will pay not on Solders last or this year...but having to keep him next year. We are not going to start a rookie LT the year Jones takes over...so DG made a multi year hopa hopa out of a one year pickle. imo
Good post. Solder was choppy for the first half of the season last year, pretty solid second half. Nobody’s declaring him an All-Pro ...but hinting that he’s not any good isn’t accurate either. Questions about performance vs. contract aside, he’s part of what looks to be a more solid OL this season.
Side note...he was elected team captain by his teammates. That pesky team leadership/culture concept a lot of people rush to discount. Especially those who never spent time in a football locker room.
Teams going thru a restructuring can add free agents, but they shouldn't do it haphazardly when their window of opportunity isn't even close to being open, nor should they create history with slightly above avg older players...whats the point?
We also took him on to show the rookies and new line what it took to be a good line. We hope that helped Hernandez. Now Zeitler helps or furthers that. Notice Solder, not Zeitler was picked for a team captain by his peers. Doubt that happens if they think he is overpaid. So their vote is slightly different than our take
All that said, uust like we cluster drafted CB this year, I think they should have not depended on one guy quite so much
Now, we know the Pats did not just let him go...they made a decent offer. That should tell us that maybe...maybe...the contract was not that far off league opinion on his value
It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.
But it is also important to remember that when we went and looked for a new HC...we went and talked extensively and got far along in the recruiting process with two guys who would have had interesting remarks about Solder and what they would do to get things turned around.
The OC and DC of the Patriots. Before FA.
another year with a terrible LT or overpay? Not so one way a decision.
Not preparing for the future on what is usually the 2nd hardest position to fill? To me, that is an easier and clearer critique on Gettleman and or ownerships view in year one of his hire ( when to my eyes they actually over valued how close they were based on McAdoos first year record)
Agreed. Let's draft correctly, and use our cap space to pay our guys as they come up for second contracts. Then use FA to find some low cost veterans to fill in a few holes.
The barwin signing won’t kill us
The obj sign and trade won’t kill us
The Omameh signing won’t kill us
The tate signing won’t kill us.
But add them all up and it’s death by a million cuts.
+1.
How many other teams needed a LT?
Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?
Sure I do.
The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
Bill, there are two different issues here.
(1) When folks start wondering why the Cowboys and Eagles are not only better but have way more cap room than us (Cowboys have $22 million, Eagles $16 million), it's not only because they draft better, but it's because the poor drafting leads to overpaying for mediocre talent.
(2) The question is, "Knowing what you know now about Solder, would you still have signed him last year?" I would not. I don't think he's worth the contract. I don't think he was worth keeping a 5-11 season being a 3-13 season. So not only is he going to be taking up cap room in 2019, 2020, and 2021, he also is going to have quite a bit of dead money win they cut him. What I'm saying is maybe it would have been better to have gone with a street guy like Chad Slade or of that ilk, see if you find a gem (a la Brad Benson), and if not, draft his replacement.
IMO, Nate Solder isn't going to be our left tackle when Daniel Jones is in his 3rd season. Is it better to have Solder out there to protect him in the short term? Perhaps,and that's the only reason I can think of for defending the signing at this point. But it sure would be nice had they used that Lauletta pick on another OL.
It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.
It also reeks of too little too late.
Quote:
How many even average LT are overpaid?
How many other teams needed a LT?
Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?
Sure I do.
The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
Bill, there are two different issues here.
(1) When folks start wondering why the Cowboys and Eagles are not only better but have way more cap room than us (Cowboys have $22 million, Eagles $16 million), it's not only because they draft better, but it's because the poor drafting leads to overpaying for mediocre talent.
(2) The question is, "Knowing what you know now about Solder, would you still have signed him last year?" I would not. I don't think he's worth the contract. I don't think he was worth keeping a 5-11 season being a 3-13 season. So not only is he going to be taking up cap room in 2019, 2020, and 2021, he also is going to have quite a bit of dead money win they cut him. What I'm saying is maybe it would have been better to have gone with a street guy like Chad Slade or of that ilk, see if you find a gem (a la Brad Benson), and if not, draft his replacement.
IMO, Nate Solder isn't going to be our left tackle when Daniel Jones is in his 3rd season. Is it better to have Solder out there to protect him in the short term? Perhaps,and that's the only reason I can think of for defending the signing at this point. But it sure would be nice had they used that Lauletta pick on another OL.
Excellent analysis. Overpaying for expense FAs like Solder is one example of why this team has not drafted well. As I said, teams that draft well use their cap money to resign their own players, and then get second tier and therefore affordable FAs to address a few needs. Overpaying for FAs is what got the Redskins into trouble for so many years, something that they are doing less of now. And even if you lose a good player to FA, there is a decent chance you'll get a nice comp pick the next year.
You might even trade Solder for a mint to a playoff bound team before or during next season we had drafted his ( and Remmers with the bad back) replacement candidates by now and got lucky.
Now, I realize that you cant replace every one at every position in year one. But the bigger gamble than Barkley or Jones is Solder and Remmers without a back up even in sight going into next year ( remember, even a LT drafted in round one is highly unlikely to start next year).
Again, the Solder contract to me is the product of being over a barrel on an OLine that was Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, No one and No one when Dg got here. Reese left an absolute nightmare. Ok...a pass for DG
So why stay in a position where it could happen again? That to me is a mistake DG made. He would be a more solid ground ( I did not say solid ground, I said More solid ground) if he traded OBJ for a LT and a draft choice and cap space to pay the LT next year. Or something like that.
Its like the Fed re inflating...its a form of a pay it forward gamble
But it is also important to remember that when we went and looked for a new HC...we went and talked extensively and got far along in the recruiting process with two guys who would have had interesting remarks about Solder and what they would do to get things turned around.
The OC and DC of the Patriots. Before FA.
another year with a terrible LT or overpay? Not so one way a decision.
Not preparing for the future on what is usually the 2nd hardest position to fill? To me, that is an easier and clearer critique on Gettleman and or ownerships view in year one of his hire ( when to my eyes they actually over valued how close they were based on McAdoos first year record)
I hear you Bill. Except I kind of banged the table hard the day I heard about the Solder signing, with exact worry that you mention above "GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster". I think I posted something along the lines of "Did DG fall down and hit his head on the ground on the way to work this morning?".
I am not saying Left Tackles grow on trees and we certainly get Flowers out of there, but don't tell me there was not other options to pursue than just paying the most for Solder because there was. In fact, Giants pursued guard Norwell first and lost so they turned their attention to Solder. Obviously, DG would need a LT if he got Norwell, so there was a plan B, or are we saying he was an idiot and this was his first rodeo? :-)
I'm not against it either. Antonio Pierce was a good signing for us.
Heavy sigh.
But I suppose you could say the same thing about a lot picks, players, whatever. It still sucks, though.
Of course, you have to draft well to win. But that is a long process that requires you to be both good and lucky. If we hadn't signed Solder, we would have had to use one of the top four picks over the last two years on a left tackle and wait for them to develop. And that is always a crapshoot even in the first and second round.
...for that kind of money would have made more sense had the Giants been just a Left Tackle away from a serious bid for a Super Bowl!
In any case, it “seems” like they are moving in the right direction financially and talent wise.
Jesus, we screwed up three high OL picks.
Jesus, we screwed up three high OL picks.
We could have had Kyle Long instead of Pugh IIRC.
Maybe draft Braden Smith over Hernandez and throw him to the wolves rookie year? Chad Wheeler? Then we're talking about getting Eli decapitated. We lose some more games in 2019 and maybe we have Kyler Murray instead of Daniel Jones. Our interior line would be in rough shape now sans Hernandez unless we spend a draft pick in 2019 instead of the other positions we addressed. Would that make us any better off as a team this year or next?
The draft will steadily right the ship because we're still paying off the debt Reese left.
rebuild but FT's don't grow on trees Nate started to play
better at the end of the season and partly that they added
Jamon Brown they started to jell .
I expect Soldier will have a solid year providing he stays
healthy . Hernandez has a year under his belt Halapio who
was plying well before breaking his leg is back and will only get better . If Remmers stays healthy we are in good shape
this season maybe they still add a swing tackle .
So with a lot of cap space we may be able to add another tackle in free agency and draft another early in 2020 .
Yeah, that was exactly my thinking when I saw this... Oh great, now we ate into next year's and the year after's money.
Jesus, we screwed up three high OL picks.
I thought Richburg was a good pick. Watching him stone Aaron Donald and Ra'Shede Hagemann at the Senior Bowl practices was pretty damned impressive. Daniel Jeremiah couldn't stop talking about him.
Don't get me started on Pugh, though.
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Solder is overpaid as well, but unfortunately he was a necessary evil, assuming we wanted to keep our QB among the living for a team that thought it could compete. Problem is. last year was a lost year, and anybody without NYG colored glasses could see it. I have always thought that DG knew it also, but he needed to appease Mara first. Thus he had no choice but to sign Solder to protect Manning. Once it was obvious that the season was going to nowhere, he wasted no time with the teardown.
The worst part about Solder is that he won't be here when the team is ready to compete. So signing him is just kicking the LT can down the road for quite an expensive price. We would have been better off picking a bunch of mid round OLs and trying to develop them.
He has already been doing a good job of clearing cap mistakes. Except he has made a few of his own. Nothing even within an order of magnitude as bad as Reese & co, but mistakes nonetheless.
I forgot about the pursuit of Norwell ( and I have not tracked his subsequent performance.
So that makes me re think what was going on in DG's head.
Stabilize with one side or the other?
Or sign both and don't re- sign OBJ? or Eli? ( which I could have understood at the time as at least a power move risk to stabilize the biggest problem in one fell swoop)
Or worst of all, try one and then be forced to stabilize around a good but lesser player at a higher paying position?
Notice he went and got Zeitler at the same position a year later so maybe his wants a pillar to build around on each side of the line?
OR Maybe (!) there is no design behind it at all. Wade into FA and start with someone good and go from there?
Back to my opinion ( as we all often wind up torturing data into confessing our original hot take) that OK free pass on starting the OL rebuild somewhere and quickly.
But if it was worth the first priority to fix why not make sure its not another dip backwards next year and the year after?
Tells me that maybe one of the priorities in FA 2020 is another OT upgrade for one never wants to go into a draft in need in round one and OTs often are far less capable of getting in there quickly in round 2-3 than round 1.
Anyway, completely forgot the Norwell angle ( and imo, a top tier guard is very essential given Eli's reactions to pressure up the middle and any ability to gain short yardage in the red zones...two big performance gaps of the Giants prior to 2018).
Let's face it, Dallas and Philly have done a far better job of drafting than we did in the Reese era. Gettleman has a steep climb in front of him to get the roster competitive with those teams. We'll need to be patient with that.
Thankfully, it looks to me that we have a young QB who may be as talented as those of our competitors.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.
IMO, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. You can simultaneously understand the reason why Solder was signed, and even reconcile the signing itself, while also pointing out that continued examples of suboptimal cap management (to put it kindly) are now already starting to push into the next couple of years.
We're already trotting out the 4th lowest paid roster in the NFL this season because of the massive dead money, and now we had to borrow from 2020 and 2021 to maintain enough flexibility to get through this season.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
The Eagles are in a playoff window and don't have the 4th lowest paid roster this season - that's what makes this frustrating. It's like Gettleman set out to pay off all his credit card debt and then immediately took a cash advance as soon as the payment posted to his account.
I forgot about the pursuit of Norwell ( and I have not tracked his subsequent performance.
So that makes me re think what was going on in DG's head.
My guess is he wanted Norwell based the most (based on news reports) and then would have tried to use the 2nd pick to grab an OT instead of guard Will Hernandez. There were a couple decent OT choices in the draft but may have had to move up into end of Rd 1 to get the best of them (Wynn). The other LTs in free agency were a big step down from an even average Solder so I am sure that wasn't attractive to DG but he probably signs one with experience and let that guy battle it out with 2nd round pick tackle to be the starter.
That's my hypothesis.
So when he loses out on Norwell, DG basically has to go "all-in" on Solder and outbids everybody because he has to do something impactful in both free agency and the draft to give Eli some breathing room and Mara some reason for optimism in 2018. And, in my opinion, went down an uber-expensive path to do it
That's my story and I am sticking with it...
Maybe draft Braden Smith over Hernandez and throw him to the wolves rookie year? Chad Wheeler? Then we're talking about getting Eli decapitated. We lose some more games in 2019 and maybe we have Kyler Murray instead of Daniel Jones. Our interior line would be in rough shape now sans Hernandez unless we spend a draft pick in 2019 instead of the other positions we addressed. Would that make us any better off as a team this year or next?
The draft will steadily right the ship because we're still paying off the debt Reese left.
Some scrub. Again, so we go 3-13 instead of 5-11. And Eli gets even more scared.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.
I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.
Ross' smugness alone in this show is enough to make you puke.
Link - ( New Window )
If you draft 3 NFL career starters in a draft, that's a good draft.
It puts into perspective how poorly ran the Giants organization top-to-bottom. Ownership, management, coaching, and players.
You don't suck for 5 out of 6 years just because you draft poorly.
Reese tried to trade up to the top of the fourth round for Williams.
But consider the state of the OL by the time FA cam around that year.
The only Tackles on the roster were Flowers and Wheeler.
The only guard was Jerry.
The centers were Jones, and an idea that they can try to convert Halapio.
That's it.
To say the cupboard was bare is the understatement of the century.
The Giants had to be desperate just to get warm bodies in to play. And don't forget, Mara thought the Giants should be competitive.
Let that sink in. Those were the only OL on the team (besides a few UDFAs) and Mara thought the Giants should be able to make the playoffs. The self delusion was off the charts.
DG had to make a whole lotta chicken soup outta a few feathers.
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.
I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.
It is true that the Eagles and Cowboys drafted better and that percolates into not having to overpay in FA. I don't think anyone suggests otherwise.
Maybe Solder was overpaid, but maybe not by so much that they can find someone better for less until some draft pick next year is ready to replace him. But that is a maybe and takes time to play out. With that, he's not getting cut this year or likely next, so restructure. I am not seeing the big fuss.
Who would not agree that Lauletta was a waste of a pick, or Webb, or Flowers ... nobody disputes that. We don't need to tilt at windmills...
You make the point as to why we have sucked, fair, and the only relevant thing is whether we are making smart decisions. You think this is a stupid one, I thing it is just not that big of a deal.
I think the extension of Solder, with no other plausible plan in place, is not bad for a year or two as you try to turn things around. By that time, the dollars lost down the road are just not going to be a factor.
DESPERATION...
When you are desperate, you over pay.
I'd rather comb my hair with a cheese-grater while I chew on tinfoil.
Anyway...I really wanted Aaron Donald that year, would've been happy with Zack Martin. I can kind of understand why Reese picked OBJ, though...kind of.
As I said, I liked Richburg, and it's no secret that I liked Jay Bromley, too. I thought he looked very good at the East-West game, and figured he'd be a nice consolation prize after not getting Donald. Most thought he was was a big reach, and in retrospect he probably was, but I loved his backstory, and there were a few others here who thought he'd at least turn into a capable role-player. Can't get 'em all right.
As for rest, weii, eesh. But a couple are still in the league...Kennard had a good year for Detroit last year.
Quote:
Like a nice juicy restructure.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.
Fans can be kinda dumb. The only reason why fans didn’t like Vernon was because of the contract. The only reason this thread is so active is because solder makes a lot of money. If you’d rather not have solder here this season is shit and shot before it starts. He’s a great locker room presence and won’t torpedo the season with his play. But he makes a lot of money. So what? They all do. Would you feel better if solder made 2-3 million less annually. Would that even make much of a difference.
It’s a weird obsession. Sometimes I get it, but cmon people. Deal with it.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Eagles are about $16 million under the cap. They are in good cap shape almost every year.
I hate the Eagles and Cowboys but they have cap room because they draft better.
Exactly, they draft better. That’s the crux of the issue and why the Giants are in the position they’re in — not only from a W-L perspective but from a cap perspective.
When you draft poorly you have money to burn in FA. Or you end up extending marginal players you drafted.
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 page thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
The Eagles are in a playoff window and don't have the 4th lowest paid roster this season - that's what makes this frustrating. It's like Gettleman set out to pay off all his credit card debt and then immediately took a cash advance as soon as the payment posted to his account.
He didn’t give Solder a raise. There’s no new money. If the contract is going to be paid out, which it certainly looks that way given the depth behind him, it doesn’t matter.
This is a non-issue. The Giants will be operating with a clean slate next year and a ton of cap space.
Quote:
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.
So, in your opinion Nate Solder played well or did not play well last year?
It Nate Solder plays equal to the player he was last last year -- he is or is not worth 19.5M in 2020?
Also keep in mind it will be his 10th year in the NFL.
Quote:
In comment 14562240 djm said:
Quote:
Like a nice juicy restructure.
Right, the giants would be better off without solder.
Who is playing LT? Flowers? A draft pick? Ok, say bye bye to Lawrence.
He’s an ok LT making a lot of money. It’s not the end of the world.
A few more blindside hits from Solder's man, and fans will turn on him like Olivier Vernon.
Fans can be kinda dumb. The only reason why fans didn’t like Vernon was because of the contract. The only reason this thread is so active is because solder makes a lot of money.
Unequivocally untrue -- plenty of fans disliked Vernon's value because he was paid at a much higher rate than his value.
No matter how many times you repeat that value, allocation of resources, and cap space don't matter -- it doesn't make it true.
I'm thrilled Zeitler makes a lot of money he's really good. I'm glad Barkley makes a lot of money, he's fantastic. I hope Engram has a dynamite season and gets a big extension, he's super talented. I'm glad Shepard got a nice raise, he's a really reliable good player.
Like Klaatu, I wanted Donald or Zach Martin in that draft. Either would have been the type of trench pick the Giants have needed for a while. That said, OBJ did bring us both wins and some trade value when his time ran out with us.
Quote:
In comment 14562067 christian said:
Quote:
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.
So, in your opinion Nate Solder played well or did not play well last year?
It Nate Solder plays equal to the player he was last last year -- he is or is not worth 19.5M in 2020?
That would be a "not"
Quote:
In comment 14562067 christian said:
Quote:
It's not a tragedy, but they are kicking the can on the back of an old expensive player.
If Solder puts in a similar performance to last year, I don't love the idea of paying 19.5M or eating 13M in dead money in 2021.
BS, OL last a long time.. Good move.
So, in your opinion Nate Solder played well or did not play well last year?
It Nate Solder plays equal to the player he was last last year -- he is or is not worth 19.5M in 2020?
Also keep in mind it will be his 10th year in the NFL.
After the neck injury (8th game /-) he played well.
Sure, Solder contract is not ideal, but any other option that does not include a competent LT would be a disaster.
Sure,we can rehash the decade long Reese and Ross poor drafting....and some of DG moves that has not worked,
But something can be said and admired by his decisivness of cutting bait on his bad deals.
2 strong drafts and arrow pointing up....
Yes, more work is needed and next year, they start with a pretty clean slate
Good observation. Halapio, Zeitler, and an improved Hernandez should be able to hold the middle.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Exactly right GD.
What we did was mortgage 5 mil out of our cap over the next 2 years.
And while that's not a huge amount, its these little bits here, and a little bit there. And suddenly you have 40 million that is constantly getting pushed every year, and as you push, you increase the likelihood that some of it becomes dead cap money. And before you know we are pushing 40 mil into next year and have 30 mil dead cap space. That is how we go into this mess with Reese & Co.
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
Quote:
In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
Look, if you insist on displaying your inability to grasp the nuances of the salary cap, I'm happy to play the heel.
The Giants took $5M of cap space that was due to count this season and kicked half of it into each of the next two years. They literally borrowed cap space from the future to cover their anticipated in-season cap activity this year.
Converting salary to bonus in a vacuum is neither good nor bad, but when you do it in the middle of a rebuild because you overestimated your ability to absorb dead money, that's fundamentally the way that teams that are irresponsible with their cap operate.
If that's difficult for you to understand, please give me your address - I'll send you some crayons.
Oh, and they only ever restructured Eli's contract once, throughout his entire career, so I'm not sure where you got "from time to time."
Let me know if there's a brand you prefer besides Crayola.
Quote:
In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
WV, yes and no.
The problem is that when you convert salary to bonus the cap hit gets spread across the remaining years of the contract (including the current year). This means that instead of the cap hit for ALL of his salary being taken this year, some is taken for the next two years.
This means that the available cap space is less in those two years. In this case, the Giants had about 62.5 million projected cap space next year. With this move they now have 60 million. If they end up signing players and taking and additional 60 million cap hit because of those signings, then they will have to restructure something again freeing up a little operating room.
That means mayber another 2.5 million pushed to the next 2 seasons. But the 2021 is already carrying an extra 2.5 million from this years restructure. So now the 2021 season is carrying an extra 5 million. As the years go by, you push more and more forward into the next year. Eventually you wind up in a permanent sliding cap hell, which is what we had under Reese.
Pushing money into the future is never a good thing, whether they play out the contract or not.
Quote:
In comment 14563078 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14563031 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14562612 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Just converted 11.75 mil of salary for Alshon into a guaranteed bonus.
Is someone going to start an outrage post about how dumb the eagles are with the cap?
The Solder restructure is such a non-issue. Let’s be honest — there’s no one in the pipeline so he’s going to be playing out his contract. This shouldn’t be a 5 pa
ge thread over 5 mil that was going to be paid out anyways.
Amen
That's not how the cap works. We now have less cap room over the next two years because we overleveraged our dead money this year. It's mediocre cap management and there's a five page thread on it because too many fans don't understand the cap mechanisms at work.
Wrong.
The money is the same. It only becomes an issue if you plan on cutting Solder. Which again obviously isn’t a consideration because there’s no one in the pipeline.
This is why they used to restructure Eli’s deal from time to time. They knew they were going to pay out the entire contract, so converting salary to bonus meant nothing long term.
Converting salary to bonus is only a bad move if you think you may cut the guy in the near future.
Look, if you insist on displaying your inability to grasp the nuances of the salary cap, I'm happy to play the heel.
The Giants took $5M of cap space that was due to count this season and kicked half of it into each of the next two years. They literally borrowed cap space from the future to cover their anticipated in-season cap activity this year.
Converting salary to bonus in a vacuum is neither good nor bad, but when you do it in the middle of a rebuild because you overestimated your ability to absorb dead money, that's fundamentally the way that teams that are irresponsible with their cap operate.
If that's difficult for you to understand, please give me your address - I'll send you some crayons.
Oh, and they only ever restructured Eli's contract once, throughout his entire career, so I'm not sure where you got "from time to time."
Let me know if there's a brand you prefer besides Crayola.
Again, wrong. Solder’s cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.
The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.
Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.
You’re engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.
The Giants didn’t add 5 mil to Solder’s cap hit. They didn’t lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they would’ve.
Again, wrong. Solder’s cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.
The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.
Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.
You’re engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.
The Giants didn’t add 5 mil to Solder’s cap hit. They didn’t lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they would’ve.
Sorry WV, now you are flat out wrong.
Did you read my post above?
The moved 5 million of THIS year's cap hit to the next 2 years. So now Solder's cap hit next year is 2.5 million more, as is the year after that.
The sum of all his money didn't change, but the year in which the team takes the cap hit most definitely did change.
Quote:
Again, wrong. Solder’s cap number is unchanged throughout the remainder of his contract.
The Giants did nothing to alter his cap hit over the remainder of his deal.
Again, this 5 mil only becomes an issue if they plan on cutting Solder this year, next year, or the following year, which is the last year of his deal.
You’re engaging in an academic exercise for a situation that only becomes a reality if Solder has some sort of career ending injury.
The Giants didn’t add 5 mil to Solder’s cap hit. They didn’t lose 5 mil in cap space. They only lose the 5 mil cap relief if they cut him, I.e. they save less than they would’ve.
Sorry WV, now you are flat out wrong.
Did you read my post above?
The moved 5 million of THIS year's cap hit to the next 2 years. So now Solder's cap hit next year is 2.5 million more, as is the year after that.
The sum of all his money didn't change, but the year in which the team takes the cap hit most definitely did change.
The issue is not just if he gets injured (which is the worst case scenario). Pushing the cap hit off to the next year is like a snow plow pushing snow. Push too much and it just keeps building up in front of the plow until you can't push it any more.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.
But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.
Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.
But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Our cap will be extremely manageable for the foreseeable future.....period.
This current 2.5 mil add for the next 2 years is nothing...comparabily to eating OBJ, Vernon, Snacks etc.
But then again, I would have kept Snacks and teamed him up with Lawrence....but that is a differenet discussion.
Really hard to be in a good cap position when you don't draft well. Begins with that. Having to sign free agents when you already have drafted poorly at the same position. Kills your cap space.
Quote:
Actually you’re right, I’m wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.
But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.
Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.
But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
I think the problem with front loading deals is that it makes the player more likely to hold out for a raise on the backend. This happened with Osi. They only see what their paycheck is going to be, not what they’ve already been paid.
Quote:
In comment 14563113 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Actually you’re right, I’m wrong. Crayola is fine, fire them off. I was thinking about it differently but I see your point.
We will lose 5 mil in cap space over two years. Practically, I don’t think it really hurts the club given the amount of cap space available next year and with a QB on a rookie deal.
The Solder deal is really the only eyesore on the roster moving forward. If that’s the only bad contract we’re in a good spot relative to the rest of the league.
If they do not chew up all their cap space over the next 2 years, then it won't matter.
But here is the thing. I hate these contracts with league minimum salaries the first year, but with huge signing bonuses. Its the same thing, essentially pushing the cap ihit for the 1st year salary into future years.
Yet almost every contract is structured like this. I would prefer the team to front load the salary and guarantee it taking the cap hits early in the contract lifetime. That way they have more flexibility later to walk away (cut or trade) without a cap hit, renegotiate etc... That is the far more responsible way to manage the cap.
But it's not as sexy as signing a whole bunch of players like we did in 2016. It would mean the 60 million we have next year won't go as far, but it will help future years. If the team is responsible managing the cap, then they should wind up using up most of that 60 million on just a few players.
I think the problem with front loading deals is that it makes the player more likely to hold out for a raise on the backend. This happened with Osi. They only see what their paycheck is going to be, not what they’ve already been paid.
This is a great point, which does lead to a careful balance between managing your cap in the present and future in a responsible manner while also keeping a carrot in front of players who need that to stay focused and motivated.
Over a competitive window you'll need to draft well and then sign your own and other UFAs. Those good players you drafted can cost as much as players from other teams. Every bad dollar spent, is money you don't have.
Fans act like a team can control who becomes available or what resources the competition has -- you can't. That's why saving every dollar you can is crucial.
Lots of fans are all excited about this coming UFA season because Giants have 62M. But who's available? How much does the competition have? Look that up, and you might be less excited.
Hint, the Giants would be way better positioned with more money.
General management requires consistency in philosophy. Good GMs pick guys who fit the tactical and character goals of the team AND don't go over slot for them.
The last 2 GMs have made cardinal sins:
1) Reese gave up financial and character prudence because Mara gave him the fix it or else ultimatum
2) Gettleman overpaid to try and stabilize the team and fix the locker room, and has overpaid for good guys who are average players
We all know, DG inherited a wealth of issues and we are digging out of them. Still some really big holes to fix and a team that has got to start finding its way in the NFL and particularly within the division.
Easier to see Giants playing better this versus playing well.
The biggest topic on our horizon as fans is the transition of the QB...
They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.
If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.
As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.
If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.
As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
that is an eye-rolling figure...
They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.
If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.
As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
Agreed, and to your point above. Having, now, 60 million against the cap next year, puts the Giants in the middle of the pack, league average is about 56 million.
Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Chances are that Tate may be the only one left standing. All of these guys have targets on their backs
Quote:
Next year the Giants will be in the enviable position of having a starting QB on a rookie deal.
They absolutely cannot negate that advantage by paying average players like Solder, Tate, and Jenkins 15-20M more than their value.
If you cut those 3 after the season -- my guess is Jenkins doesn't net more than a 5M salary, Solder no more than 10M, and Tate no more than 5M.
As it stands those 3 characters project to cost the Giants 34.7M.
Agreed, and to your point above. Having, now, 60 million against the cap next year, puts the Giants in the middle of the pack, league average is about 56 million.
Yup -- importantly it's 60M out of 1.7B in open space.
The Giants are an average team with average cap space.
The idea they can be cavalier with any of their resources is one of the truly hilarious and flat out wrong takes by fans.
The Giants need to be much, much better at allocating money.
They aren't going to be picking in the top 10 next year, and they don't have any more good players to trade.
Gettleman must make every dollar count.
I promise to just scream in a couch pillow and not subject you guys to my anger.
The Giants aren't all teams -- they have operated with substantial dead money this and last year to the tune of 77M dollars. For arguments sake let's put that 100% on Reese. And the reason was bad contracts, right?
So next year, the unequivocal reality is the Giants aren't in great cap shape, they are in average cap shape.
Is Solder a good contract? Forget about why he was signed and any justifications, just simply is he under a good contract?
And again for arguments sake say 32-year-old Nate Solder going into his 10th year in the NFL, has shown signs of slipping for 2 straight years (same exact age David Diehl fell apart) -- and the Giants decide 19.5M is not just a bad value, but an unacceptable value.
The Giants are left eating 13.5M to save 6M. Seems a lot like what Gettleman was doing to clean up for Reese to me.
Quote:
As I posted earlier
Kareem Martin
Alec Ogeltree
Golden Tate (starting next year)
Rhett Ellison
Janoris Jenkins
Chances are that Tate may be the only one left standing. All of these guys have targets on their backs
And that'll be another round of dead money if/when those cuts occur.
Yet another example of the consistent irresponsibility in our cap management - you want your players to play out their full contracts, because not only does that usually mean they're a player of enough value that they deserved to be a mainstay on your roster, but you also qualify for a potential compensatory pick if your players sign with another team after reaching free agency without being released. Teams like the Patriots and Eagles understand this and have successfully worked the comp pick system for years.
Those extra picks obviously let you load your roster with more preferred talent at a significant bargain rate. Cutting guys typically leaves you with dead money and now an additional need to expend finite resources, either through the draft or free agency.
It is a systemic flaw in the way the Giants approach roster construction and cap management.
I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.
Probably after week 1.
I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.
He definitely seems to value compensatory picks more than Reese did and the early returns on his draft picks have largely been a massive improvement vs. Reese. That alone will help dramatically - amassing young, cheap talent (that is actually talented) affords you so much more margin for error with the cap.
That said, I do still think there are enough indications so far that Gettleman might have some of his own weaknesses with the cap. The optimist in me hopes that's just a byproduct of the Reese mess, and that a better overall roster might help avoid those no-win decisions and thus preclude Gettleman from even being in a situation that could expose what appears to be his weak spot as it relates to the cap.
The cynic in me wonders how much of this is really just due to Abrams to the extent that the same neverending cycle of middling cap space and absorbing dead money to clear cap room is something we saw consistently through Reese's tenure, and Abrams is the executive in the same role for both GMs.
Quote:
and is working to change our dealings around the cap, or that it will be more of the same for us down the line.
I'm relatively optimistic about that, but I guess it will depend upon how well we draft down the line.
He definitely seems to value compensatory picks more than Reese did and the early returns on his draft picks have largely been a massive improvement vs. Reese. That alone will help dramatically - amassing young, cheap talent (that is actually talented) affords you so much more margin for error with the cap.
That said, I do still think there are enough indications so far that Gettleman might have some of his own weaknesses with the cap. The optimist in me hopes that's just a byproduct of the Reese mess, and that a better overall roster might help avoid those no-win decisions and thus preclude Gettleman from even being in a situation that could expose what appears to be his weak spot as it relates to the cap.
The cynic in me wonders how much of this is really just due to Abrams to the extent that the same neverending cycle of middling cap space and absorbing dead money to clear cap room is something we saw consistently through Reese's tenure, and Abrams is the executive in the same role for both GMs.
Well said, my feelings exactly.
I am cautiously optimistic that the improved drafting will prevent a horrible cap mess. But, that's about it, can't say I am confident.
Here's the bright side: you might never again have to stay up past your bedtime on draft night so long as he's our cap guy.
Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?
Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?
His contract construction is elementary at best and detrimental at worst. But by all means, let’s keep celebrating his mediocrity.
Or does he execute contracts once choices are made, interact with agents and insure NFL contract compliance?
And since transitioning from Reese to Gettleman, the choices that theoretically precede Abrams’ involvement have mostly been better but the systemic cap management habits have remained the same. I suppose that’s a very feasible coincidence given the shared pedigree of Reese and Gettleman, but Occam’s Razor makes Abrams a more likely consideration.