for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Giants restructure Solder contract

CMicks3110 : 9/7/2019 7:35 am
.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
RE: RE: RE: I think that Gettleman has an accurate vision of our talent level  
Jimmy Googs : 9/7/2019 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14562339 yatqb said:
Quote:
In comment 14562331 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14562328 yatqb said:


Quote:


But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.



Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...



Agreed. Add top ILB to that list and I think we're set. No need for a great WR -- see New England.


Yep...we see eye-to-eye on next steps
Hey Jimmy  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:10 pm : link
The ass is the guy who rips other posters but complains to the mods when they give the same snide right back. Actually more than an ass...a sneak.

The ass is the guy who substitutes posting the general fog of shit when they are put on the spot and cant answer the question.

What would you...you...the great Jimmy Googs do in specific...or just acknowledge you are a blowhard?

Go for it smart ass.

You wont but its ok. We all already know that in life you substitute verbal aggression so no one sees into the gaps and holes.

Now go complain to gidie like you did earlier this week.

Tell him you don't like it when you get exposed as a low life asswipe.
Huh...go the mods and gidie regarding what?  
Jimmy Googs : 9/7/2019 1:16 pm : link
You're out of line...
no  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:16 pm : link
out of line is you on BBI. Just about everyday
.  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:17 pm : link
and weak sauce even when in bounds
RE: RE: I think that Gettleman has an accurate vision of our talent level  
Klaatu : 9/7/2019 1:18 pm : link
In comment 14562331 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14562328 yatqb said:


Quote:


But drafting a top OT who can start at RT and move over to LT once Solder is released is imperative. I expect we'll see that happen in the next draft or two.


Have mentioned similar point before. This may even be as important as Edge Rusher next year...


I think it is. I hope they double-up on OT's in the 2020 draft (even triple-up, as they did with CB's this year, adding a decent C/OG prospect). Of course it all depends on how the whole thing shakes out, where they're picking, who's available, and how they've graded each prospect. The best value might be at ER/OLB or WR early on. Personally, I'd look for an ILB and FS in free agency.
best move?  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:20 pm : link
answer the original question straight up just like it was asked.

All other moves?

More weak sauce from a low end poster
...  
christian : 9/7/2019 1:20 pm : link
I'd also like to know when the liability warranty of Reese runs out for Gettleman. All this time, I thought the argument was Gettleman is a better GM, so wouldn't that in turn mean his moves wouldn't just be out of desperation, but actually more successful?

If success is to just keep substituting for Reese's mistakes -- couldn't have ya know, Reese kept just doing that?

Gettleman has made a number of really high conviction moves; Jones, Barkley, trading Vernon, trading Beckham, trading JPP. I bet those end up really good moves.

Doesn't absolve him or make his missteps Reese's fault. That's chickenshit.
ah come on Jimmy  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:21 pm : link
Show us what you got
Bill2  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 1:23 pm : link
I'm not sure what you are doing here... it's borderline cyber-stalking.
Eric  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:27 pm : link
I will think about that possibility

But, I would point out that I never ever responded to Jimmy Googs except on this thread and got the response I got

So the other possibility is that you tolerate a bad poster or you don't see the bad posters in your midst
Not certain what I need to respond to Bill  
Jimmy Googs : 9/7/2019 1:28 pm : link
that i haven't already.

There is no secret sauce to building a roster, but I can tell you going into free agency and saying if I don't pay Solder that highest contract in OL History then we won't have a left tackle next season sounds ridiculous.

Happy to go back and forth on this but don't think you are in a state of mind to reasonably care. I called you an ass above because your post needlessly called out Eric and I as acting superior.

Your follow on posts tell me I was correct...
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14562443 Bill2 said:
Quote:
I will think about that possibility

But, I would point out that I never ever responded to Jimmy Googs except on this thread and got the response I got

So the other possibility is that you tolerate a bad poster or you don't see the bad posters in your midst


There are plenty of abrasive people like Jimmy Googs on this site, some quite popular. If I banned people for being abrasive or having unpopular views, this place would be pretty boring.

I suggest the two of you stop interacting with each other.
But it is your site and you have certainly made a lot of efforts  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:29 pm : link
to provide a good site for Giants fans, so out of respect, I will let it go.

I certainly can live without exchanges with Jimmy Googs
RE: Gatorade Dunk  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/7/2019 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14562411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I just said the same thing to my wife... "We used to mock the Redskins for the stuff we were doing under Reese."

Just to be clear, I think Gettleman is doing better than Reese (hard not to). His drafts look much better. His free agent decisions have not been as good.

I don't know if you saw my argument on Twitter with Paul Dottino this morning when he called Gettleman "crafty" for restructuring Solder. I wouldn't use the word "crafty". Deferring cap pain because of previous screw ups is not "crafty."

Dottino blocked me last year for commenting about him claiming Webb was the heir apparent so I didn't see it.
RE: Gatorade Dunk  
Klaatu : 9/7/2019 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14562411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I just said the same thing to my wife... "We used to mock the Redskins for the stuff we were doing under Reese."


I said the same thing to your wife, and she said, "Who the hell are you and how did you get in here?"
Must be clearing cap to sign AB  
eric2425ny : 9/7/2019 1:34 pm : link
Lol
I did not say that  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:35 pm : link
I asked what YOU would do

Because it is equally irresponsible to defend Gettleman as it is to attack him without putting out a specific action plan

See, it is easy to attack afterwards.

Its hard to put down an inferior choice when there are no good choices

We have heard about this for 2 years...so where was the alternative choice that was superior

Its easy to attack. Its easy to attack in a vaccum. You don't have to produce an answer which can be second guessed.

Can you advance the discussion ? advance a superior insight ?

or not?

Show us what you got?
.  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:40 pm : link
Superior is a superior insight or alternative to Gettlemans

Acting superior is knocking it without an alternative

So I gave you a chance to actually BE Superior

Instead you attacked another poster on another thread on another day with attitude not insight or intellect. Does not fool anyone

So go for it. Back it up or let my comment stand as factual. Superior or acting superior?
So much revisionist history here  
slickwilly : 9/7/2019 1:40 pm : link
We all know free agency is mostly paying A money for B level players. Solder was overpaid, but everyone bobs on the knob of Belichick and from all reports their offer was slightly below the Giants. It was a monumental hole that needed to be addressed.
Klaatu  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 1:41 pm : link
LOL.
RE: So much revisionist history here  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14562467 slickwilly said:
Quote:
We all know free agency is mostly paying A money for B level players. Solder was overpaid, but everyone bobs on the knob of Belichick and from all reports their offer was slightly below the Giants. It was a monumental hole that needed to be addressed.


Except it's not revisionist when some of us criticized the signing at the time.

Let's be frank... Solder hasn't been very good. He's been average at best and at times, not good. Even Sy has picked up on it.
Eric  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:48 pm : link
How many even average LT are overpaid?

How many other teams needed a LT?

Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?

Sure I do.

The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time
While it's true that DG didn't have to spend $62 million to get a LT  
GeofromNJ : 9/7/2019 1:48 pm : link
that was better than Flowers (almost anybody would have been better), I think Gettleman thought that a healthy Solder would be an elite LT for the next five years. The Pats drafted him on the 1st round. The guy is 6'8", 320 lbs and has always shown good footwork. If he's healthy, he should be able to protect Eli's blind side against just about any edge rusher. Supposedly Solder had a neck injury in the first half of 2018 and may have had ankle pain the entire year based on the recent removal of ankle bone spurs. If, however, the bone spurs are an indication of ankle arthritis that will only worsen, Solder may never be elite.
in sum  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 1:53 pm : link
I think the original Solder signing was a tax penalty that had to be paid on Reese and Ross's failure.

That is not on Gettleman

What is on Gettleman is not getting a way out by now

So imo, both things are true:

1) Solder was an ok gamble he had more to give at a time when there was not any alternative that made a QB transition a less risky proposition ( from what we see so far)

2) Not more aggressively attacking the problem of being over the barrel on Offensive Tackles is on Gettleman and we will pay not on Solders last or this year...but having to keep him next year. We are not going to start a rookie LT the year Jones takes over...so DG made a multi year hopa hopa out of a one year pickle. imo
RE: While it's true that DG didn't have to spend $62 million to get a LT  
mfsd : 9/7/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14562477 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
that was better than Flowers (almost anybody would have been better), I think Gettleman thought that a healthy Solder would be an elite LT for the next five years. The Pats drafted him on the 1st round. The guy is 6'8", 320 lbs and has always shown good footwork. If he's healthy, he should be able to protect Eli's blind side against just about any edge rusher. Supposedly Solder had a neck injury in the first half of 2018 and may have had ankle pain the entire year based on the recent removal of ankle bone spurs. If, however, the bone spurs are an indication of ankle arthritis that will only worsen, Solder may never be elite.


Good post. Solder was choppy for the first half of the season last year, pretty solid second half. Nobodyís declaring him an All-Pro ...but hinting that heís not any good isnít accurate either. Questions about performance vs. contract aside, heís part of what looks to be a more solid OL this season.

Side note...he was elected team captain by his teammates. That pesky team leadership/culture concept a lot of people rush to discount. Especially those who never spent time in a football locker room.
Geo - Solder was never elite as a Left Tackle  
Jimmy Googs : 9/7/2019 1:55 pm : link
he was avg to fairly good. Free Agency obviously results in paying top dollar for available players, particularly if you happen to be at the near top of that list at your respective position when your free agent year comes around.

Teams going thru a restructuring can add free agents, but they shouldn't do it haphazardly when their window of opportunity isn't even close to being open, nor should they create history with slightly above avg older players...whats the point?
the big problem with Solder last year  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/7/2019 2:00 pm : link
was that when guys rush to the outside, he takes them behind the QB, and allows the QB to step up. However, with the interior jailbreaks last season (particularly in the first half), the pocket was always being pushed back instantly. So the QB had nowhere to step up and instead was retreating into Solder's blocking area. With a competent o-line, his play should be fine - not perfect but more than adequate.
mfsd  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 2:00 pm : link
Good point.

We also took him on to show the rookies and new line what it took to be a good line. We hope that helped Hernandez. Now Zeitler helps or furthers that. Notice Solder, not Zeitler was picked for a team captain by his peers. Doubt that happens if they think he is overpaid. So their vote is slightly different than our take

All that said, uust like we cluster drafted CB this year, I think they should have not depended on one guy quite so much

Now, we know the Pats did not just let him go...they made a decent offer. That should tell us that maybe...maybe...the contract was not that far off league opinion on his value
As much as I recognized that Solder was being overpaid,  
yatqb : 9/7/2019 2:08 pm : link
I also understood DG's desire to finally give Eli an OL that didn't leave him helpless and gun shy.

It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.


Jimmy  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 2:09 pm : link
I think one possibility is that in the first year, without a clear common view at the top of the Giants that it was time to clean house...our GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster.

But it is also important to remember that when we went and looked for a new HC...we went and talked extensively and got far along in the recruiting process with two guys who would have had interesting remarks about Solder and what they would do to get things turned around.

The OC and DC of the Patriots. Before FA.

another year with a terrible LT or overpay? Not so one way a decision.

Not preparing for the future on what is usually the 2nd hardest position to fill? To me, that is an easier and clearer critique on Gettleman and or ownerships view in year one of his hire ( when to my eyes they actually over valued how close they were based on McAdoos first year record)
This plus an open roster spot  
Blue Ninja : 9/7/2019 2:09 pm : link
means we're most likely signing a vet next week
Choosing Solder go restructure says a lot about what DG thinks of him  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/7/2019 2:10 pm : link
moving forward. Definetly thinks the arrow is pointing up which is interesting because he almost got DJ murdered against the Bengals in preseason.
RE: A lot of BBI'ers  
AcidTest : 9/7/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14562156 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
are going to jump on my case because we will have a bunch of cap space next year, but I'm so tired of this team drafting poorly, dramatically over-paying free agents like Solder (who is being paid like an All-Pro when he's not), and then being forced to defer cap hits down the road in order to create short-term cap relief. This has been going on with the Giants for years.


Agreed. Let's draft correctly, and use our cap space to pay our guys as they come up for second contracts. Then use FA to find some low cost veterans to fill in a few holes.
RE: The solder over pay wonít kill us, neither will the restructure  
AcidTest : 9/7/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14562278 ron mexico said:
Quote:
The Stewart signing wonít kill us
The barwin signing wonít kill us
The obj sign and trade wonít kill us
The Omameh signing wonít kill us
The tate signing wonít kill us.

But add them all up and itís death by a million cuts.


+1.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 2:16 pm : link
In comment 14562476 Bill2 said:
Quote:
How many even average LT are overpaid?

How many other teams needed a LT?

Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?

Sure I do.

The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time


Bill, there are two different issues here.

(1) When folks start wondering why the Cowboys and Eagles are not only better but have way more cap room than us (Cowboys have $22 million, Eagles $16 million), it's not only because they draft better, but it's because the poor drafting leads to overpaying for mediocre talent.

(2) The question is, "Knowing what you know now about Solder, would you still have signed him last year?" I would not. I don't think he's worth the contract. I don't think he was worth keeping a 5-11 season being a 3-13 season. So not only is he going to be taking up cap room in 2019, 2020, and 2021, he also is going to have quite a bit of dead money win they cut him. What I'm saying is maybe it would have been better to have gone with a street guy like Chad Slade or of that ilk, see if you find a gem (a la Brad Benson), and if not, draft his replacement.

IMO, Nate Solder isn't going to be our left tackle when Daniel Jones is in his 3rd season. Is it better to have Solder out there to protect him in the short term? Perhaps,and that's the only reason I can think of for defending the signing at this point. But it sure would be nice had they used that Lauletta pick on another OL.
RE: As much as I recognized that Solder was being overpaid,  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14562494 yatqb said:
Quote:
I also understood DG's desire to finally give Eli an OL that didn't leave him helpless and gun shy.

It was a reasonable overpay imo...not ideal, but the best that DG could do at that point to solve a problem that Reese had created...Erick F'n Flowers at LT and Bobby Hart at RT.



It also reeks of too little too late.
RE: RE: Eric  
AcidTest : 9/7/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14562505 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14562476 Bill2 said:


Quote:


How many even average LT are overpaid?

How many other teams needed a LT?

Now, do I wish they had more flexibility ? Do I think they should have drafted a decent LT prospect by now so they would not be stuck next year and the year after with an average LT?

Sure I do.

The part I criticize is not the signing. Its the logical next steps of protecting the team as soon as you can from being held up a second time



Bill, there are two different issues here.

(1) When folks start wondering why the Cowboys and Eagles are not only better but have way more cap room than us (Cowboys have $22 million, Eagles $16 million), it's not only because they draft better, but it's because the poor drafting leads to overpaying for mediocre talent.

(2) The question is, "Knowing what you know now about Solder, would you still have signed him last year?" I would not. I don't think he's worth the contract. I don't think he was worth keeping a 5-11 season being a 3-13 season. So not only is he going to be taking up cap room in 2019, 2020, and 2021, he also is going to have quite a bit of dead money win they cut him. What I'm saying is maybe it would have been better to have gone with a street guy like Chad Slade or of that ilk, see if you find a gem (a la Brad Benson), and if not, draft his replacement.

IMO, Nate Solder isn't going to be our left tackle when Daniel Jones is in his 3rd season. Is it better to have Solder out there to protect him in the short term? Perhaps,and that's the only reason I can think of for defending the signing at this point. But it sure would be nice had they used that Lauletta pick on another OL.


Excellent analysis. Overpaying for expense FAs like Solder is one example of why this team has not drafted well. As I said, teams that draft well use their cap money to resign their own players, and then get second tier and therefore affordable FAs to address a few needs. Overpaying for FAs is what got the Redskins into trouble for so many years, something that they are doing less of now. And even if you lose a good player to FA, there is a decent chance you'll get a nice comp pick the next year.
Eric  
Bill2 : 9/7/2019 2:26 pm : link
Exactly.

You might even trade Solder for a mint to a playoff bound team before or during next season we had drafted his ( and Remmers with the bad back) replacement candidates by now and got lucky.

Now, I realize that you cant replace every one at every position in year one. But the bigger gamble than Barkley or Jones is Solder and Remmers without a back up even in sight going into next year ( remember, even a LT drafted in round one is highly unlikely to start next year).

Again, the Solder contract to me is the product of being over a barrel on an OLine that was Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, No one and No one when Dg got here. Reese left an absolute nightmare. Ok...a pass for DG

So why stay in a position where it could happen again? That to me is a mistake DG made. He would be a more solid ground ( I did not say solid ground, I said More solid ground) if he traded OBJ for a LT and a draft choice and cap space to pay the LT next year. Or something like that.

Its like the Fed re inflating...its a form of a pay it forward gamble
AcidTest  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 2:27 pm : link
And I'm not against free agency. The Giants did a hell of a job targeting some OL free agents like Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, Ron Stone. The latter two got huge contracts (for the time they were signed). Nate just hasn't lived up to the contract.
on  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 2:28 pm : link
the flip side, David Baas never really lived up to his contract. He was always hurt.
RE: Jimmy  
Jimmy Googs : 9/7/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14562496 Bill2 said:
Quote:
I think one possibility is that in the first year, without a clear common view at the top of the Giants that it was time to clean house...our GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster.

But it is also important to remember that when we went and looked for a new HC...we went and talked extensively and got far along in the recruiting process with two guys who would have had interesting remarks about Solder and what they would do to get things turned around.

The OC and DC of the Patriots. Before FA.

another year with a terrible LT or overpay? Not so one way a decision.

Not preparing for the future on what is usually the 2nd hardest position to fill? To me, that is an easier and clearer critique on Gettleman and or ownerships view in year one of his hire ( when to my eyes they actually over valued how close they were based on McAdoos first year record)


I hear you Bill. Except I kind of banged the table hard the day I heard about the Solder signing, with exact worry that you mention above "GM/ownership did not have the same sense of how much of a hit to take to climb out of the pit faster". I think I posted something along the lines of "Did DG fall down and hit his head on the ground on the way to work this morning?".

I am not saying Left Tackles grow on trees and we certainly get Flowers out of there, but don't tell me there was not other options to pursue than just paying the most for Solder because there was. In fact, Giants pursued guard Norwell first and lost so they turned their attention to Solder. Obviously, DG would need a LT if he got Norwell, so there was a plan B, or are we saying he was an idiot and this was his first rodeo? :-)


RE: AcidTest  
AcidTest : 9/7/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14562513 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
And I'm not against free agency. The Giants did a hell of a job targeting some OL free agents like Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, Ron Stone. The latter two got huge contracts (for the time they were signed). Nate just hasn't lived up to the contract.


I'm not against it either. Antonio Pierce was a good signing for us.
Some teams get the 9th pick in the draft and get Tyron Smith.  
Klaatu : 9/7/2019 2:40 pm : link
And others get the 9th pick in the draft and get Ereck Flowers.

Heavy sigh.

But I suppose you could say the same thing about a lot picks, players, whatever. It still sucks, though.
team had so many holes  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/7/2019 2:43 pm : link
Solder filled one. One can argue that they didn't have a single truly competent o-lineman under contract. They did what they needed to do to make a start toward a decent o-line. Solder was a better signing than if they had resigned Pugh and Richberg.

Of course, you have to draft well to win. But that is a long process that requires you to be both good and lucky. If we hadn't signed Solder, we would have had to use one of the top four picks over the last two years on a left tackle and wait for them to develop. And that is always a crapshoot even in the first and second round.
Maybe the Solder signing...  
M.S. : 9/7/2019 2:44 pm : link

...for that kind of money would have made more sense had the Giants been just a Left Tackle away from a serious bid for a Super Bowl!
Eric- I donít think itís as black and white  
Dave on the UWS : 9/7/2019 2:45 pm : link
as you are alluding to. Empirically, you are right across the board. However, looking at it with a larger lens, the situation changes gradually, with each year being better than the previous. I think Gettlemanís goal is to NOT be over paying for vets to plug holes. I think within 2 years from now, he wants a better, younger roster, with NO dead money or vets on questionable contracts. But he canít get there all at once. If the essentials of a roster rebuild is 3 years, cleaning up ALL the financials may take a bit longer to sort out.
In any case, it ďseemsĒ like they are moving in the right direction financially and talent wise.
As pointed  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/7/2019 2:48 pm : link
out here by a number of people, it wasn't just Flowers that screwed us, but Pugh and Richburg.

Jesus, we screwed up three high OL picks.
RE: As pointed  
AcidTest : 9/7/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14562533 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
out here by a number of people, it wasn't just Flowers that screwed us, but Pugh and Richburg.

Jesus, we screwed up three high OL picks.


We could have had Kyle Long instead of Pugh IIRC.
and those 3 screw ups  
Dave on the UWS : 9/7/2019 2:55 pm : link
directly led to Solder. You said it yourself Eric, draft better. Thatís where it starts. Then you can clean up the bad contracts. OBJ was a bad signing unless the only way to trade him was if he was signed long term? In any case, there is a lot of clean up that goes into effect after this season.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner