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Ok BBI - How would you fix the defense

Emil : 9/8/2019 9:31 pm
The performance today was awful. No pass rush and the secondary was burned all day long. Here are my suggestions.

1. Let Connelly play. He has more upside than Davis
2. Not sure this Tomlinson at NT is really working out. Play Lawrence at NT in base. Move him when you go to nickel.
3. Why is Martin on this team exactly? Donít recall even seeing him out there. Bring up a member from the practice squad
4. Not sure where the pass rush is going to come from but maybe let Carter put his hand in the dirt a bit more.
5. Peppers might be the best blitzer. Maybe employ more three safety looks and let Peppers loose.

wow  
GiantEgo : 9/8/2019 9:34 pm : link
Peppers was on the active roster today?
Need to let them play  
section125 : 9/8/2019 9:34 pm : link
a few games to see what is going on. They have a boatload of rookies and 2nd year players starting or used in the game rotationally. They need to play to learn. I know they suck. We have to accept that and hope for improvement weekly.
This is not going to be pretty this year.
The only times  
Bill in UT : 9/8/2019 9:35 pm : link
Bettcher's defenses looked good in AZ were when he was blitzing. He did some today, but everyone got blocked. He needs to show either a little more imagination, or maybe our personnel just isn't that good. The only positive I saw was some good penetration from Connelly, so Tree or Davis are going to have to sit.
No easy answer esp in season, but if you could change 1 thing  
ChaChing : 9/8/2019 9:35 pm : link
it's pass rush. It's awful. DBs maybe be weak, but few DBs would be able to succeed with this shit pressure. Honestly we had decent DBs back in the day comparatively, but the pass rush still covered up some of that with guys like Michael Johnson or Geoff Pope or whoever else (even the weaker LBs really)
Regarding your first point, I thought Connelly was on the field a lot.  
Ira : 9/8/2019 9:36 pm : link
I think he and Davis will be our starting inside linebackers at some point this season. I like Davis, too.
Agree with all those points actually.  
j_rud : 9/8/2019 9:37 pm : link
Id add play more press man than off and zone. Jenkins and Baker are both better fits for it.
Without a pass rush  
thrunthrublue : 9/8/2019 9:37 pm : link
And with the worst dbís in the league.......hope for some high draft picks and a completely new group of coaches in 2020, edge/lbí/secondary all need to be replaced, along with all the coaches......
The decision was made to let Collins walk  
jcn56 : 9/8/2019 9:38 pm : link
and trade away Vernon, JPP.

With the money that came back from those moves, they should have picked up a pass rusher. They should probably have picked up another safety as well. They underrated the impact of Collins and overrated the ability of Peppers, who aside from that one year in Gregg Williams' defense didn't look so great.

Now you're basically stuck - unless there's a pass rusher you can go out and sign, you're asking a pedestrian LB core and a bunch of very raw CBs to hold up with no pass rush to help them out. Not a good situation.
Draft Josh Allen.  
since1925 : 9/8/2019 9:39 pm : link
A true pass rusher would make a huge difference.
This is a great topic......  
George from PA : 9/8/2019 9:40 pm : link
I would love to see more of Connerly. He reminds me of S.Lee, but will they really put another rookie?

Keep Hamilton off the field. Baker and Balentine and eventually Beal are the future.....

3 safety probably makes sense....do we hace 3 safeties?

Lawrence can not stay on the field if he is manning NT...for all 3 downs.

Did Xmen play?
RE: Draft Josh Allen.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2019 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14566657 since1925 said:
Quote:
A true pass rusher would make a huge difference.


Agree.

Take Josh Allen at #6 and Daniel Jones at #17
RE: The decision was made to let Collins walk  
j_rud : 9/8/2019 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14566655 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and trade away Vernon, JPP.

With the money that came back from those moves, they should have picked up a pass rusher. They should probably have picked up another safety as well. They underrated the impact of Collins and overrated the ability of Peppers, who aside from that one year in Gregg Williams' defense didn't look so great.

Now you're basically stuck - unless there's a pass rusher you can go out and sign, you're asking a pedestrian LB core and a bunch of very raw CBs to hold up with no pass rush to help them out. Not a good situation.


Next year is when theyll see the cap impact of those moves. Still a ton of dead money tied up. They didnt have a ton of money this year, and tbh there wasnt exactly a great crop of FAs. I dont mind that they werent going to be big players in FA this year.
We need to give these guys time to gel  
JoeyBigBlue : 9/8/2019 9:41 pm : link
The secondary is 3/4 new. It showed today.
The issue right now is we don't have the personnel this year  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/8/2019 9:42 pm : link
to play the defense Betcher wants to. I think some of us forget this is all about 2020. Our secondary is very young and we have a bunch of guys that have shown they can lock up in man in college. It will take time.
I would leave the DC in Dallas  
arniefez : 9/8/2019 9:42 pm : link
I know how poor the talent is on defense. Iím not blaming him for that. However that performance today was not professional football. In all the years Iíve watched the Giants Iíve never seen that level of suck. The Giants are the Washington Generals now for the Cowboys.
I wish to help I could  
JFIB : 9/8/2019 9:43 pm : link
But this clearly just as much a talent issue as anything. I can't really comment on scheme but most of the defense looked very confused today. Where is the aggressive and attacking defense we were promised? Everyone looks lost in the passing game and the trend of wide open receivers continues. It won't happen this year but maybe Betcher is not the answer.
It's  
AcidTest : 9/8/2019 9:44 pm : link
too early to say that we have no pass rush. We had no pass rush today, but that was against one of the best OL in the league. Whether we can generate pass rush against anyone else is yet to be seen. I would nonetheless still blitz more.

I agree that we should play Connelly more. I would also play Baker, Ballentine, and Love as much as possible. They have talent, but are rookies going against veterans. There will be mistakes and miscommunications, including blown coverages.
This year?  
Breeze_94 : 9/8/2019 9:46 pm : link
I'm not sure it's possible.

I'd let the young guys play, evaluate what we have and see if they can improve.
Heres the thing  
Aaroninma : 9/8/2019 9:47 pm : link
You can have poor talent. But so much of what we saw today came down to COACHING. How many times does the middle of the field get fooled before we actually try coaching it up?

RE: It's  
jcn56 : 9/8/2019 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14566688 AcidTest said:
Quote:
too early to say that we have no pass rush. We had no pass rush today, but that was against one of the best OL in the league. Whether we can generate pass rush against anyone else is yet to be seen. I would nonetheless still blitz more.

I agree that we should play Connelly more. I would also play Baker, Ballentine, and Love as much as possible. They have talent, but are rookies going against veterans. There will be mistakes and miscommunications, including blown coverages.


I don't agree - yes, Dallas' OL is one of the best in the league - but they managed *nothing*. Blitz, no blitz, no pressure and holes all over.

Looking at the team on paper before the season started everyone knew this would be a huge weakness for the D. The assumption was the rebuilt secondary would offset that to some extent. It's early yet, but that doesn't look like that's going to be the case.
RE: Draft Josh Allen.  
Nine-Tails : 9/8/2019 9:56 pm : link
In comment 14566657 since1925 said:
Quote:
A true pass rusher would make a huge difference.


It's all about chase young now
1st rounder  
Breeze_94 : 9/8/2019 9:58 pm : link
should be a nice high pick though.

Maybe they can land Chase Young or Grant Delpit.
RE: The issue right now is we don't have the personnel this year  
santacruzom : 9/8/2019 9:59 pm : link
In comment 14566676 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
to play the defense Betcher wants to. I think some of us forget this is all about 2020.


Can you blame us? The owner came GM forget that too.
Blow it up  
uconngiant : 9/8/2019 10:01 pm : link
and start over again.

Not enough talent and the line could not get pressure today at all. Without pressure they will have opposing quarterbacks with 153.8 ratings like today
give it time to gel  
Giantsfan79 : 9/8/2019 10:01 pm : link
isn't the old adage you need 4 games for every new starter on a defense before they get familiar with each other.

Anyone else remember how our defense started that season when we upset 18-0?
Use a lot of premium picks on defense  
Dave in PA : 9/8/2019 10:05 pm : link
And donít screw it up. At least we donít have to burn anymore picks on QB, so thatís a plus
RE: RE: Draft Josh Allen.  
section125 : 9/8/2019 10:05 pm : link
In comment 14566666 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14566657 since1925 said:


Quote:


A true pass rusher would make a huge difference.



Agree.

Take Josh Allen at #6 and Daniel Jones at #17


Christ again? Jones would not have been there at 17. What don't you get about that? Denver, Miami and Washington all had him targeted.
RE: give it time to gel  
MookGiants : 9/8/2019 10:05 pm : link
In comment 14566766 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
isn't the old adage you need 4 games for every new starter on a defense before they get familiar with each other.

Anyone else remember how our defense started that season when we upset 18-0?


I also remember that team having Justin Tuck, Michael Strahan and Osi Umenyiora on it. Playing in an entirely new defense.

Comparing that to this is asinine. The talent is absolutely awful on defense. If not the worst talent in the league pretty damn close to it.

Guys like Peppers and Ogletree are considered top talent for the back 7. And in reality neither one is any good. If Peppers was judged based on his actual play since entering the NFL and not from what people expected out of him coming into and out of college no one would ever praise him. He had one fluke good year and hasn't been good besides that.
Time  
AcesUp : 9/8/2019 10:07 pm : link
Secondary should mature as the season and I'm optimistic that they'll be legit by next year. Regarding the front?
Hopefully a 2nd or 3rd pass rush type emerges during the season because I don't see a stud rusher on the roster.
RE: RE: RE: Draft Josh Allen.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2019 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14566783 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14566666 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14566657 since1925 said:


Quote:


A true pass rusher would make a huge difference.



Agree.

Take Josh Allen at #6 and Daniel Jones at #17



Christ again? Jones would not have been there at 17. What don't you get about that? Denver, Miami and Washington all had him targeted.


i was just kidding. Settle down section...
RE: RE: give it time to gel  
Strahan91 : 9/8/2019 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14566784 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14566766 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


isn't the old adage you need 4 games for every new starter on a defense before they get familiar with each other.

Anyone else remember how our defense started that season when we upset 18-0?



I also remember that team having Justin Tuck, Michael Strahan and Osi Umenyiora on it. Playing in an entirely new defense.

Comparing that to this is asinine. The talent is absolutely awful on defense. If not the worst talent in the league pretty damn close to it.

Guys like Peppers and Ogletree are considered top talent for the back 7. And in reality neither one is any good. If Peppers was judged based on his actual play since entering the NFL and not from what people expected out of him coming into and out of college no one would ever praise him. He had one fluke good year and hasn't been good besides that.

Peppers has played a total of two seasons. One in which he was a rookie and one Inc which he was good. How that is ďone fluke yearĒ is beyond me. If he was a 5 year pro you may have a point but you donít.
RE: The issue right now is we don't have the personnel this year  
AcesUp : 9/8/2019 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14566676 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
to play the defense Betcher wants to. I think some of us forget this is all about 2020. Our secondary is very young and we have a bunch of guys that have shown they can lock up in man in college. It will take time.


I think they have the personnel but they don't have the talent, if that makes sense. There are guys that can do what he wants them to do but there aren't really any studs, at any level, capable of disrupting offenses. It's all gravy for the offenses without the drive killing plays that Bettcher relies on.
Er  
santacruzom : 9/8/2019 10:11 pm : link
Owner and GM.
Everyone is talking about the talent - fine i agree  
V.I.G. : 9/8/2019 10:18 pm : link
But these guys dont seem coached well.

blowing coverage assignments
not setting edges
over pursuing

all this talk of bethea as a 2nd coach on the field.

you have to give it a few more games, but this was shite at both the talent and coaching level
1.elite safety  
madgiantscow009 : 9/8/2019 10:27 pm : link
2. pass rush
3. inside linebackers

4. #1 WR
5. OT depth

just going have to be patient for the draft and salary cap because the three year rebuild isn't finished and of-course it's an ongoing process for all teams.
4-2-5  
kdog77 : 9/8/2019 11:40 pm : link
I think they need to switch to 4 down lineman, 2 LB and 5 DBs base.

Play Tomlinson and Lawrence at DT to clog run lanes. Play BJ Hill and Carter/Golden at DE to get after QB. Start an extra DB to get Peppers closer to the line or match up with TE and RB. LBs canít be expected to stop run and play man coverage on every play so let them either play zone in the middle or blitz the QB. Give CBs more opportunities to get up and press the WRs.

The real question is how much more rope does Betcher get before he gets shown the door. I donít recall the Cards ever having shut down D but we seem to have lot of faith in guy who brought in bunch of retreads (Bethea, Martin, Golden) who are seriously underwhelming and over paid.
Number one  
Joey in VA : 9/9/2019 12:24 am : link
Is to play a 3-4 with a C-2 shell to protect your young players in the secondary and keep this man coverage and blitzing to a minimum when you face a team with an OL like this. You're exposing them to getting torched like we did today. Very very poor game plan, and worse execution. Play it safe until these guys are up to speed or you risk ruining a draft class of DBs who have no confidence because you hung them out to dry.
RE: Number one  
.McL. : 9/9/2019 12:28 am : link
In comment 14567062 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Is to play a 3-4 with a C-2 shell to protect your young players in the secondary and keep this man coverage and blitzing to a minimum when you face a team with an OL like this. You're exposing them to getting torched like we did today. Very very poor game plan, and worse execution. Play it safe until these guys are up to speed or you risk ruining a draft class of DBs who have no confidence because you hung them out to dry.

I saw the Giants trying to play a lot of Tampa-2... But it doesn't work very well when the Mike keeps biting on the play fake, and doesn't get back to cover the deep middle.
How would I fix the defense?  
81_Great_Dane : 9/9/2019 7:46 am : link
Give them about 8 games of experience. Seriously, the D is loaded with rookies plus a few second year guys who barely played last season. I thought they'd give up 42 yesterday. 35 is close enough. They're going to founder for a few games. Could be half the season before the young guys learn what it means to play D in the League and start to get it.

Much more disturbed by the poor scoring. Shurmur's an offensive-first coach, Eli's a vet, Barkley's a beast... I figured they'd lose something like 35-28 or 35-31. That showing was weak.
RE: RE: Number one  
Joey in VA : 9/9/2019 10:52 am : link
In comment 14567067 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14567062 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Is to play a 3-4 with a C-2 shell to protect your young players in the secondary and keep this man coverage and blitzing to a minimum when you face a team with an OL like this. You're exposing them to getting torched like we did today. Very very poor game plan, and worse execution. Play it safe until these guys are up to speed or you risk ruining a draft class of DBs who have no confidence because you hung them out to dry.


I saw the Giants trying to play a lot of Tampa-2... But it doesn't work very well when the Mike keeps biting on the play fake, and doesn't get back to cover the deep middle.
It was a handful of plays, not a lot. On every single TD pass, CBs were left alone and safeties were in the slot, that isn't Cover 2. Seeing two safeties split the field isn't what C-2 is, it's CBs playing short, the Mike immediately peeling back to cover the deep middle and the safeties each playing a deep half. I didn't see that, I saw an alignment with 2 safeties but they didn't play C-2, period. You seeing it vs. it being played aren't the same thing, it's called a disguise and it didn't work one time.
How would you fix the defense  
Torrag : 9/9/2019 11:03 am : link
Hamilton would never play again. He proved he doesn't belong when Cobb bitch slapped him on the sideline tackle attempt on 3rd down. How this team consistently plays guys that are roster fodder for others is scary. Curtis Riley was the culprit last season.

Communication has to improve. You can't have guys running around the field all day scoring TD's with no defender in the play...da fuck?

Not much can be done about the pass rush. That is talent driven and we don't have enough of it.
You can start  
weaverpsu : 9/9/2019 11:04 am : link
By benching Hamilton and putting our best against their best. Jenkins should have been locked up against Cooper with a safety shading his way. Also, it appears B.J. Hill sucks and Lawrence wasn't the guy we thought we drafted. He had zero tackles and no impact. Maybe the PED knock on him was accurate? Yes it's 1 game, but he looked outmatched.
RE: How would I fix the defense?  
weaverpsu : 9/9/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14567272 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
Give them about 8 games of experience. Seriously, the D is loaded with rookies plus a few second year guys who barely played last season. I thought they'd give up 42 yesterday. 35 is close enough. They're going to founder for a few games. Could be half the season before the young guys learn what it means to play D in the League and start to get it.

Much more disturbed by the poor scoring. Shurmur's an offensive-first coach, Eli's a vet, Barkley's a beast... I figured they'd lose something like 35-28 or 35-31. That showing was weak.


You're the only one. The Dallas D could be top 5 this year. And the Giants moved the ball pretty well actually. Deciding against long FG's and our receiver getting tackled in the endzone took points off the board.
.  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/9/2019 11:16 am : link
1. Don't play Hamilton again. Ever.  
x meadowlander : 9/9/2019 11:34 am : link
Honestly, they're fucked. They need to be able to trust each other, and who is gonna trust Davis to cover the middle of the field, or Bethea to keep up with his man, or the corners not to fuck up or ANYONE to pressure the passer?

They ALL feel like they can't trust the guy next to them right now and are going to until there are successes to build on.

They got Dallas off the field on the first drive and then completely forgot how to play.

How to fix? You can't - it's going to be a long, long season.
thoughts and prayers?  
Eric on Li : 9/9/2019 11:37 am : link
seriously there's only 1 person who can fix it and there's probably a better chance than not that he can't (Bettcher). It's his defense/scheme/setup. His input went into the players acquired. It's like saying "fix this cake" once all the ingredients are mixed and it's in the oven. There is only so much that can happen now.

Teams have looked awful 1 week and then things clicked and look better in following weeks before, but at this point it's very hard to have any optimism based on Bettcher's 17 game resume at this point.
For now,  
justafan : 9/9/2019 11:45 am : link
I'd go with a lot of man coverage with 2 high safeties until these guys understand when you can pass someone off to the safety or not. Basically bend but don't break and make the opposing offense drive on you the length of the field. You can then get more aggressive in the red zone area where there is a shorter field.

That is one way. The alternative is to do what Betcher did yesterday, baptism by fire and let the mistakes roll in and hope the guys learn fast.
CAN SOMEONE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD COVER THE TE???!!!!  
GMAN4LIFE : 9/9/2019 11:48 am : link
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