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Betcher hasn't shown me shit since he got here

Torrag : 9/9/2019 2:11 am
His vaunted deception and ability to confuse QB's and create pressure have been non existent. There have been about 40 blown coverages, at least 3 a game where our guys just don't even run with the receivers. It's fucking mind boggling. He better get this group competitive or he should be shown the door at the end of the season.

As a Giant fan I have pride in our defense. We've seen way too much suck on that side of the ball for way too long.
Sad but accurate description of Giants' defense from Jordan ESPN  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 9/9/2019 2:41 am : link
The Giants are going to have a problem on the defensive side, as a season-opening loss to the Cowboys exposed their insufficient talent. No pass rush. An inability for any cornerback other than Janoris Jenkins to cover. No difference-makers or playmakers. The Giants were outclassed by the Cowboys, allowing almost 500 total yards despite Dallas shutting it down early in the fourth quarter. And now the Giants will travel to Buffalo next week to face a team that overcame a 16-0 deficit to beat Jets on Sunday. -- Jordan Raanan
They should have never  
phil in arizona : 9/9/2019 2:46 am : link
Switched to the 3-4. It was too much of a change with too few resources.

The D wasnít that far removed from a good year.
isn't buffalo  
japanhead : 9/9/2019 2:50 am : link
a home game? jordan's such a lazy ass.
Scary thing is  
jvm52106 : 9/9/2019 4:13 am : link
this Buffalo game could be worse than Dallas. The Bills will be playing in the stadium again but now against a defense far less stout. The bills run a lot of crossing stuff and John Brown can get deep. Allen will run far more than Dak and has an arm far superior than Dak's. Coke Beasley ate the Giants up in the past and could do so again. This is no lock for the Giants and could end up being worse considering how tough the Bills defense is!
Betcher will get swept outta here...  
M.S. : 9/9/2019 4:48 am : link

...when the Giants dump Shurmur. And that could happen if the Giants regress from last season.
this  
broadbandz : 9/9/2019 4:49 am : link
defense looks lost from the from second of the game. McAdon't showed more coaching talent than "Betch." Just awful coaching from top to bottom. They had all spring and summer to prepare for Dallas. At least be lined up in the right spot. Embarrassing.
No excuse for that defensive performance  
joeinpa : 9/9/2019 5:07 am : link
It s. It all a lack of talent
Disagree  
jeff57 : 9/9/2019 5:22 am : link
Heís shown me a lot of shit.
Fraud.  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/9/2019 5:33 am : link
If was anything he purported to be heíd mix in done 4-3 looks vs team like Dallas.

Issue is anyone think Mara and Tisch have any fucking clue how to hire a coach to replace this current crew?
RE: They should have never  
The_Boss : 9/9/2019 6:12 am : link
In comment 14567117 phil in arizona said:
Quote:
Switched to the 3-4. It was too much of a change with too few resources.

The D wasnít that far removed from a good year.


This. Made no sense at the time. Good 3-4 Dís have good speedy LBís who can cover, rush the passer, and hold up in the run game. We have nothing there.
I canít disagree here  
5BowlsSoon : 9/9/2019 6:18 am : link
I too am wondering about Bettcher. He did so well in Arizona, and he has brought his players here. Plus we have given him a lot of good young talent. Why canít he find a way to exploit opposing weaknesses?
Iím worried that  
greek13 : 9/9/2019 6:46 am : link
A shit show against the Bills sends us into disaster mode - this could be the
- but itís ok -we arenít overpaying anyone 🙈 - except 10 - we have no business being in a 3/4 - we will need a new DC next year
PS is going nowhere till 2020 at the earliest - still hoping 6-10 or 7-9 - but yesterday was a disaster in multiple ways - LBS - safeties were statues - Hamilton are u kidding me?
It seems like a lifetime away...  
silverfox : 9/9/2019 7:00 am : link
But I can remember so many people back in 2011 saying please God, give us one more SP and we can put up with a decade or more of shit football. Be careful what you wish for. This team is and has been shit since then.
coached very well in Zona  
bc4life : 9/9/2019 7:03 am : link
but came here and forgot everything. not really. young players, new scheme, and not much pass rush talent
They change  
mittenedman : 9/9/2019 7:18 am : link
coaches and schemes and everything looks the exact same.

I can't watch guys running uncovered right down the middle anymore. It's sickening.
RE: coached very well in Zona  
TheMick7 : 9/9/2019 7:21 am : link
In comment 14567188 bc4life said:
Quote:
but came here and forgot everything. not really. young players, new scheme, and not much pass rush talent


This! I'm not pleased w/our defense either but when you look on the field & the only vets are JackRabbit,Bethea & Ogletree & everyone else is a rookie or 2nd year player,there has to be a large learning curve. Baker started at CB & didn't play most of the preseason. These kids,who were among the best at their positions in college,haven't adjusted to the speed of the NFL yet nor,as was obvious yesterday,understand their assignments within the defense. Now,if we look the same defensively in November/December,I'll be among the masses calling for Bettcher's dismissal but,in fairness,it'll take time for these kids to become a strong defense. After the last 2 years,patience is a hard commodity to continue to have but it is a necessity!
Bettcher had some good players in Zona  
Rjanyg : 9/9/2019 7:24 am : link
Chandler Jones with Golden before his injury, Honey Badger, Peterson, Campbell.

Right now we have very young defense. Many vets just got here. We have many 1st and 2nd year players: Carter, Hill, Baker, Lawrence, Davis.

Golden is still working his way back. Ogletree was injured during preseason and didnít play much.,Bethea is ancient. Peppers is new to the defense. Tomlinson is stout but doesnít make plays.

This defense needs time and more importantly, a couple of real play makers.
Agree. He has not had much in the way of talent  
Mike from Ohio : 9/9/2019 7:34 am : link
Since he got here, but he has not developed anyone or got them to play at least competent. I am losing all confidence in this coaching staff as they seem to not be able to squeeze anything more out of the team then what they should be on paper.
As a long time Giant fan since 1955  
joe48 : 9/9/2019 7:55 am : link
We cannot keep changing coaches. This team defense was put together with expensive free agents. That plan did not work out and the new regime is REBUILDING. That takes time and patience and some luck with draft picks. I get it we all want to be competitive now. Give it some time. What other choice do you have?
Jordon is such a clown, he doesn't even know  
ZogZerg : 9/9/2019 7:59 am : link
where the Giants are playing next week.
The talent may not be great  
ZogZerg : 9/9/2019 8:01 am : link
But, the D coordinator sucks!

Another Arians over hyped coach/player.
The Lack of Talent was sufficient as an excuse last year.  
Diver_Down : 9/9/2019 8:25 am : link
But this current defensive squad are all Bettcher Boys. DG isn't cluster drafting an entire defensive secondary without Bettcher giving input/approval. Every defensive draft pick and FA signing are all on Bettcher. DG can decide to scrub the stink of Reese off the roster, but additions aren't brought in without the coach's approval. Golden is 2 years removed from his ACL. He knows Bettcher's system and that goes for Bethea. 2nd year players in Bettcher's system can't be excused for poor effort. There should be some expectation for rookie mistakes and more so with the later round picks. But 1st round draft picks should not be afforded a scholarship to learn how to play. No one should expect that they dominate, but they should look like they belong.
RE: Scary thing is  
Stu11 : 9/9/2019 8:40 am : link
In comment 14567131 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
this Buffalo game could be worse than Dallas. The Bills will be playing in the stadium again but now against a defense far less stout. The bills run a lot of crossing stuff and John Brown can get deep. Allen will run far more than Dak and has an arm far superior than Dak's. Coke Beasley ate the Giants up in the past and could do so again. This is no lock for the Giants and could end up being worse considering how tough the Bills defense is!

Just stop. We aren't facing the 1990 Bills next week. They literally did zip zero nada for over 3 quarters yesterday vs. a mediocre Jets D. Everybody here loves to kill Dak but the guy was superb yesterday and it wasn't just that guys were wide open , he was placing the ball right in their hands in stride. Josh Allen is a very erratic thrower and mistake prone. Sure we could lose, we can struggle vs. anyone right now but I seriously doubt it will be worse than yesterday. Buffalo is not putting up 500 yds.
It seemed like  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2019 9:29 am : link
Dallas studied our team and film, and we didn't bother.
I warned the switch to a 3-4  
JonC : 9/9/2019 9:34 am : link
would take time and that they didn't have many parts to pull it off.

Big thing right now is inexperience and lack of playmakers at LB. No natural pass rusher who makes the offense pay.

Not worried about the DL or DBs, there's enough talent there to build around. They've got to get a young FS and put Ballantine in for Hamilton. Take their lumps now.
Canít make chicken soup  
Carl in CT : 9/9/2019 9:53 am : link
Out of chicken shit!
RE: The Lack of Talent was sufficient as an excuse last year.  
Pete in MD : 9/9/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14567353 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
But this current defensive squad are all Bettcher Boys. DG isn't cluster drafting an entire defensive secondary without Bettcher giving input/approval. Every defensive draft pick and FA signing are all on Bettcher. DG can decide to scrub the stink of Reese off the roster, but additions aren't brought in without the coach's approval. Golden is 2 years removed from his ACL. He knows Bettcher's system and that goes for Bethea. 2nd year players in Bettcher's system can't be excused for poor effort. There should be some expectation for rookie mistakes and more so with the later round picks. But 1st round draft picks should not be afforded a scholarship to learn how to play. No one should expect that they dominate, but they should look like they belong.

I agree, there shouldn't be a lack of talent on defense at all. The starting 11 has 6 premium draft picks (3 firsts, 1 second, 2 thirds from the '17-'19 drafts) and 2 big money veterans who should still be in their primes age-wise Either all of those other guys decided to suck at the same time or something is wrong with the scheme, coaching, and/or preparation.
It's got to be scheme or communication more than just talent  
Csonka : 9/9/2019 10:44 am : link
Physical talent alone wouldn't stop guys running free down the middle of the field all day. Our secondary didn't have a clue.
I have to agree but him and Shumur  
justafan : 9/9/2019 11:54 am : link
are going to get another year. The defense is young and the only people who played much in last year are Carter, Ogletree, Hill, Jenkins, and Tomlinson. The sad truth is this team hasn't had a 10 sack guy in how long? Feels like nearly 10 years. QBs are trained to identify potential blitzers in their pre-snap. Its up to the players to disguise it. It's up to the players to beat their man. When Betcher brought the house it was completely picked up When he sent four, it was picked up. When there was pressure near Dak he moved around the pocket. When you are blowing coverages within 2 seconds of the ball being snapped all the pressure in the worlds won't matter.
RE: It's got to be scheme or communication more than just talent  
justafan : 9/9/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14567804 Csonka said:
Quote:
Physical talent alone wouldn't stop guys running free down the middle of the field all day. Our secondary didn't have a clue.


Its communication and understanding the defense. That will improve. I don't put that on Betchers scheme, these guys are both new and young.
RE: Sad but accurate description of Giants' defense from Jordan ESPN  
figgy2989 : 9/9/2019 11:58 am : link
In comment 14567116 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:
. And now the Giants will travel to Buffalo next week to face a team that overcame a 16-0 deficit to beat Jets on Sunday. -- Jordan Raanan


I haven't ready the article, but if it was a copy and paste, Jordan just continues to suck at his job.

I mean, you have one job and that is covering the NY Giants for ESPN. Don't you think he would know that next week is actually the Giants home opener?
Eli in his prime covered the warts of Mara and Tisch  
moespree : 9/9/2019 12:46 pm : link
They are uninspired and below par owners, yet that remained hidden until age caught up with Eli and changes started to be made.

I have no confidence at all they will make the right decision in anything they do anymore. Sure they might fire Shurmur or his staff but I see no reason to think they'd have any idea how to hire the correct replacements.
What happens to all of Betcher's  
Bubba : 9/9/2019 1:18 pm : link
guys when/if he gets fired? Start all over?
The defensive line so far  
NikkiMac : 9/9/2019 1:35 pm : link
Is offensive
RE: Disagree  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14567145 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Heís shown me a lot of shit.


You win the interwebs today.
.  
Del Shofner : 9/9/2019 1:39 pm : link
"And now the Giants will travel to Buffalo next week to face a team that overcame a 16-0 deficit to beat Jets on Sunday. -- Jordan Raanan"

Not just a bad team but a bad reporter covering it.
What ever happended to old fashioned  
Bubba : 9/10/2019 1:52 pm : link
coaching? Matching a scheme to fit the roaster you have rather than a roster to fit your scheme. Shula went from a ball control offense with Csonka, Morris and Kiick to an air show with Marino and the smurfs. Lil Bill in the 1990 playoffs used 5 down linemen against the Bears and 2 down linemen, plus LT against the Niners the next week.
And Spags sucked before him  
BlueHurricane : 9/10/2019 2:08 pm : link
Is it the players or the coaches ???
RE: What ever happended to old fashioned  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/10/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14570439 Bubba said:
Quote:
coaching? Matching a scheme to fit the roaster you have rather than a roster to fit your scheme. Shula went from a ball control offense with Csonka, Morris and Kiick to an air show with Marino and the smurfs. Lil Bill in the 1990 playoffs used 5 down linemen against the Bears and 2 down linemen, plus LT against the Niners the next week.


Coaches have egos and stubbornness, it's not a new thing. Plenty of coaches failed in the 80s, 90s, 00s because they had one 'system' and wouldn't compromise it.
RE: And Spags sucked before him  
John In CO : 9/10/2019 5:09 pm : link
In comment 14570463 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
Is it the players or the coaches ???


I see everyone questioning Bettcher, which is certainly appropriate, but no one has really questioned anything about our new secondary coach. Withers hasnt coached in the NFL since 2006, and has had various college coaching assignments (and firings) since then. Hard to believe we couldnt find someone who has at least worked in the NFL in the past 10 years.
Blame goes to everyone  
Marty866b : 9/10/2019 5:13 pm : link
Start with the owner who hired this GM, who hired this coach, who hired this DC. The defense is a shitfest and the blame goes to everyone.
Am I mistaken in remembering  
Leg of Theismann : 9/10/2019 5:18 pm : link
The D actually looked pretty decent toward the beginning of the year last year (2018)? I remember often they would be stingy in the first 3 or 3.5 quarters, but the ineptitude of the offense would keep them on the field/ give the other team too many chances and they'd eventually give up chunks of points. But overall I just remember thinking if we can get the offense on track the D had a lot of the pieces and potential there to be a solid D.

I remember in particular feeling good about their effort against NO and the way they were able to keep them out of the endzone for much of the game. We got screwed when Tomlinson got tackled in the endzone and the refs missed it (should have been a safety + possession obviously giving Eli a chance to win the game).

Then I remember as the offense improved over the course of the year suddenly the D became just absolutely awful (particularly the secondary) and it's just been all downhill from there. What the hell happened?

Honestly though I can't remember the last time the Giants having a decent secondary, aside from the playoffs of those 2 super bowl runs and maybe the '08 season.
RE: What happens to all of Betcher's  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/10/2019 5:19 pm : link
In comment 14568210 Bubba said:
Quote:
guys when/if he gets fired? Start all over?


They will say it will take time to redo the defense because the new coordinator will need to have "his guys," and then proceed to use that as a new excuse for lack of performance because they are "adjusting" to the new system.

The betting odds favor that Bettcher will be fired before Shurmur unless we believe they all will be cleaned out at once.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
do the Giants do any  
Bill in UT : 9/10/2019 6:51 pm : link
stunting with their DL? Dallas had a guy come through about 3 gaps from where he lined up on Sunday. In AZ, Bettcher had guys like Jones and Golden, sometimes Campbell, who could rush, the Honeybadger who could blitz and Peterson to cover one on one. Never loved Bettcher in AZ, but he doesn't have those tools to run a pressure defense in NY. Every guy he blitzed with Sunday got blocked. I'd be sending Connelly, he seems like the only guy who can find his way into the backfield.
None of the guys  
Bill in UT : 9/10/2019 6:53 pm : link
Bettcher has brought here from AZ is a playmaker, except maybe Golden and the jury is still out on his recovery
RE: Am I mistaken in remembering  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/10/2019 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14570800
Honestly though I can't remember the last time the Giants having a decent secondary, aside from the playoffs of those 2 super bowl runs and maybe the '08 season. [/quote]

2016 wasn't that long ago
RE: RE: Am I mistaken in remembering  
Leg of Theismann : 9/10/2019 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14570884 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14570800
Honestly though I can't remember the last time the Giants having a decent secondary, aside from the playoffs of those 2 super bowl runs and maybe the '08 season.


2016 wasn't that long ago [/quote]

You're right. Honestly in that moment I completely blanked that we had a top defense for 1 year a few years ago. Seems like ages ago.
I don't blame you  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/10/2019 7:03 pm : link
since it was such a random year, but that was a dominant unit.
I don't like all the communication issues we are having on defense  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/10/2019 7:12 pm : link
but what the fuck did people expect? Right now can't cover in the back end and can't generate pash rush up front. You will get destroyed if you can't do either of those things in 2019, forget about stopping the run. At least if you are terrible against the run you can just keep throwing more players in the box to stop the bleeding. There is literally nothing you can do with no pass rush and guys that can't cover.
Seriously what do you guys expect him to do if you can't rush  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/10/2019 7:14 pm : link
the passer and can't cover. You can't outscheme that.
Let's assume bettcher has had  
Bill in UT : 9/10/2019 7:29 pm : link
some input into the guy's we've drafted/signed the past 2 years. So I don't give him a total pass
Right, but most of the investment has come this year. These guys are  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/10/2019 7:42 pm : link
still rookies and second year players.

There is also the fact that Kellen Moore is a brand new coordinator and did a fantastic job scheming and playcalling, but there is no tape out there on him yet. They threw a ton of window dressing out there week 1.
Rookies aside  
Bill in UT : 9/10/2019 7:49 pm : link
besides Golden, we've brought over Mauro,Bethea, Martin and Pierre from the Cards, none of whom have, or will, make a difference in this defense.
...  
christian : 9/10/2019 10:43 pm : link
Gettleman has literally replaced all but 2 defensive players and spent considerable resources on the replacements.

- Hill (3rd)
- Tomlinson (2nd, Reese)
- Lawrence (1st)
- Carter (3rd)
- Ogletree (Trade, former 1st)
- Davis (UDFA)
- Ximines (3rd)
- Jenkins (UFA,Reese)
- Baker (1st)
- Bethea (UFA)
- Peppers (Trade, former 1st)

Davis and Bethea are the only low value acquisitions of the defense. Claiming it's a shit roster maybe is an indictment on who assembled it?
Sorry but I still don't  
Bubba : 9/13/2019 12:32 pm : link
buy this scheme/system stuff. You scheme based on the strength of the players you have against the weaknesses of your opponents. That's coaching. Trying to pound square pegs into round holes rarely works.
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