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I donít get the Eli is done narrative?

joeinpa : 9/9/2019 7:17 am
First, I donít think there are many if any here who wanted a young quarterback the last two seasons more than me.

But what did people see yesterday to prompt the ďEli is doneĒ narrative that I read in the game and post game threads yesterday.

Eli has limitations, we all know that. But so do other quarterbacks throughout the league who are still winning. Does anyone here believe Eli wouldnít be a winner with a roster like Dallasí?

Seems like there is much resentment directed towards Eli here, which I find surprising on a Giants board.

He might not be the answer here anymore, but to state unequivocally that he s done, when his stats and even his play donít support that theory is not accurate IMO.

For the record I m ready to move on from Eli, because this team is not ready to win, not because Eli is done.

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Good posts jcn and lawrencetaylor  
Jimmy Googs : 9/10/2019 12:30 pm : link
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RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
ron mexico : 9/10/2019 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:
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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?


Lets see how warm of a reception the status quo gets in Giants stadium this week
RE: RE: The bottom-line is that they are professionals  
Bill L : 9/10/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14570271 bigbluehoya said:
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In comment 14570251 Bill L said:


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They are not the Dolphins. They are going to approach this season and each game with the respect to their fans, their own employees (the non-QB players being asked to risk injury each week), and the game itself as if they want to win the game and progress in the season. I disagree that it's "ring" or nothing either, but more a realistic shot at making the post-season. They're approach is different than yours; they're not quitters and divers and they won't punt the season before it even begins.

At the point where they concede that they are playing for next year and not this year, they will put Jones in. If Eli goes down with an injury, they will put Jones in. If it looks like Eli is what is holding the team back, then they will put Jones in....And none of that is week #2.



just to be clear - you thought Jones was an awful pick, correct?

Imagine thinking that it would be disrespectful to the fans/employees/team to play the QB that you just drafted #6 overall, after going 31-49 over the last 5 seasons?


Jones was not the pick I wanted when Goodell was at the podium. I wanted Allen and I wanted a 2020 QB. But a nanosecond after Goodell said his name, I was a supporter of Jones.

And, your hypothetical doesn't make too much sense. There isn't any draft pick, whether he's #6 over all or #6 round, that is different in the sense that it's disrespectful not to start them merely because they were drafted. Your play the player that will help you win the next game the most.
RE: RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
Bill L : 9/10/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14570287 ron mexico said:
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In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:


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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?



Lets see how warm of a reception the status quo gets in Giants stadium this week


You realize that "status quo" is 100% on the defense, right? Not sure how that is relevant to this topic.
RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
bigbluehoya : 9/10/2019 12:33 pm : link
In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:
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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?


Seems like some sort of weird code of chivalry to me.

If their honest view, given what the last 7 seasons have been as a body of work, is that the player they just used the #6 overall draft pick on is a guy that it would be DISRESPECTFUL to others to put on the football field, I would say the greater disrespect to the fans was drafting that player at #6.

But they don't think that. This is all a ruse. It has nothing whatsoever to do with respect for the fans. And I don't think you think it has anything to do with that, Britt. You have some actual well-reasoned logic behind your opinion. This respect thing is drivel.
RE: RE: RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
ron mexico : 9/10/2019 12:37 pm : link
In comment 14570293 Bill L said:
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In comment 14570287 ron mexico said:


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In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:


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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?



Lets see how warm of a reception the status quo gets in Giants stadium this week



You realize that "status quo" is 100% on the defense, right? Not sure how that is relevant to this topic.


The def is terrible, no doubt. I've been saying that all off season.

The O still only managed to put up 10 points when the game was in contention.

Hey, if there are promising young guys on the def side of the ball, put them in as well. I think they should be playing Ballentine over Hamilton as well

Consider that Jones MIGHT just be the bees knees  
Thegratefulhead : 9/10/2019 12:38 pm : link
What if dude is exactly what we saw in the preseason?

And he is sitting on the bench.

He will not get David Carr'd with this line and running back.

We know who Eli is. He has the power to audible. He had protection and a running game against Dallas and looked.

EXACTLY THE SAME AS HE HAS FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS.

It was boring. So boring.

If we lose against Buffalo or ever get 2 game below 500 I will be screaming for Jones. Not because I hate Eli but because Jones just might be the truth. He looked the best of all the rookie QBs in preseason. Arizona isn't worried about Murray.

It would exciting to watch a young player with upside grow. I see nothing negative to playing him with many possible positives.

Manning needs to WIN to continue start IMO

RE: RE: RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
jcn56 : 9/10/2019 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14570293 Bill L said:
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In comment 14570287 ron mexico said:


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In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:


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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?



Lets see how warm of a reception the status quo gets in Giants stadium this week



You realize that "status quo" is 100% on the defense, right? Not sure how that is relevant to this topic.


That's absolutely wrong, when the offense couldn't manage more than 10 points. Even a great defense isn't winning with 10 points of support from their offense.

The main problem with this team is the defense, but the offense hasn't exactly been holding up their end of the bargain.
Didn't we all agree the offense needed to be capable of carrying us  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/10/2019 12:40 pm : link
for at least the first half of the schedule? They didn't look capable of that and Eli isn't a guy that can carry them anymore clearly. There is almost no point of trotting him out there anymore unless it is clear DJ isn't ready. The coaches all talk about he is ready, so why wait?
I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/10/2019 12:44 pm : link
of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
Bill L : 9/10/2019 12:49 pm : link
In comment 14570308 jcn56 said:
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In comment 14570293 Bill L said:


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In comment 14570287 ron mexico said:


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In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:


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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?



Lets see how warm of a reception the status quo gets in Giants stadium this week



You realize that "status quo" is 100% on the defense, right? Not sure how that is relevant to this topic.



That's absolutely wrong, when the offense couldn't manage more than 10 points. Even a great defense isn't winning with 10 points of support from their offense.

The main problem with this team is the defense, but the offense hasn't exactly been holding up their end of the bargain.


I don't agree with this at all. I think people are so hung up on the Eli question that they've overblown the impact of the offense on Sunday's game. Eli is now the defense's scapegoat.

They did progress down the field and some of those failed scoring opportunities were dictated by the defense's lapses. I'm positive that we would have kicked FG's at least twice instead of going for it on 4th down. And yeah, you can say it's only 6 more points but it's part of a lot of changes dictated by Dallas so easily scoring on every opportunity. In part, and I think to a large part, it changed how we used Saquon and that had a huge impact.
Eli and winning  
Thegratefulhead : 9/10/2019 12:52 pm : link
If we are winning I completely support starting Eli. Once we look like in

AT 0-2 since 1990 only 12% made the playoffs...That would be time

1-3 15%

2-4 9%

3-5 7%

4-6 7%

5-7 4%

I did not choose the records arbitrarily.


record playoff matrix - ( New Window )
RE: Maybe they think it's disrespectful to fans....  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 12:53 pm : link
In comment 14570277 Britt in VA said:
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to not do what they think is best for the team to win a game in any given week?

I get that teams should try to win every game, but at a certain point, if one path may result in a significantly higher ceiling for long-term success (not saying it will, just considering the hypothetical that it could) but reduces your chances for winning a handful of games this season, and the other option offers no long-term benefit but probably does maximize your chances of winning each game this season (even if those chances aren't exceptionally high in some instances regardless of which option you choose), you have to at least be willing to choose the long-term benefit, don't you?

Or is the preference simply to lose by less points? Because if we're going to suck out loud either way, I'm fine with sucking even more this year if it means that we're Super Bowl contenders again sooner.

It's fine to play every game to win, but if there's a material difference to the long-term potential for this franchise, I'll be disappointed if that's not even a consideration at all.

IMO, it's more disrespectful to the fans to think that they're not capable of understanding that the future matters too. But considering that John Mara seems to treat the low-IQ cesspool of WFAN like a free focus group that gives him a pulse of the fanbase, it's not surprising that he would generally underestimate the intelligence of his customers.
Doesnít matter that they marched  
ajr2456 : 9/10/2019 12:53 pm : link
Down the field if they canít score touchdowns. Sure maybe they kick more FGS if itís closer, but good offenses should be able to pick up 4th and shorts.
RE: I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
bw in dc : 9/10/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14570314 Zeke's Alibi said:
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of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.


I think I recently read that since 2006ish that only 10% of the teams who started 0-2 make the playoffs. So I agree, Eli should sit for Jones if we go down to Buffalo.

Unfortunately I think Eli is in the saddle until we are officially, mathematically eliminated. And that will be precious time lost...
RE: RE: RE: The bottom-line is that they are professionals  
ajr2456 : 9/10/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14570266 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14570261 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 14570251 Bill L said:


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If it looks like Eli is what is holding the team back, then they will put Jones in....And none of that is week #2.



This has been true for 3 years now.



They do not concur with your assessment.


Theyíre 38-58 the last 7 years, are we assuming theyíre right?
RE: RE: I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
Bill L : 9/10/2019 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14570329 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14570314 Zeke's Alibi said:


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of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.



I think I recently read that since 2006ish that only 10% of the teams who started 0-2 make the playoffs. So I agree, Eli should sit for Jones if we go down to Buffalo.

Unfortunately I think Eli is in the saddle until we are officially, mathematically eliminated. And that will be precious time lost...


I'd like to get a better feel for "precious". Is there a detonator somewhere?
RE: RE: Bringing it back to Jones  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14570081 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14569338 ron mexico said:


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He is not going to get David Carríed



I think you nailed it - this is the underlying fear with those who want the transition process to be more methodical and measured. We don't want another David Carr on our hands. And I get that to a degree. Plus, sprinkled in between, there is this desire to see Eli finish out on his terms and/or that he still has the good to produce wins.

But it's a risk I'm willing to take because the NFL's trend - I know some want more granularity in the data - is that rookie QBs are starting right away (more than ever), or very soon into their rookie year. And most, > 50%, are showing green arrows. Just look at what I compiled last night above. There are a lot of success stories brewing in the NFL with QBs who started early. It's clear as day.

So I am ALL in on Jones starting right away. And I'm a guy who probably is the most skeptical about him. But I see huge value in finding out as soon as possible if he is indeed the boom or the bust. If he's the boom, then we get great ROI off his first contract. If he's the bust, then we re-group and start looking for another solution quicker...





It's a fundamental truth of Giants fans - they have an indelible memory for that one time that a worst case scenario played out, even if it was elsewhere in the NFL.

"We can't have Peppers returning punts because Jason Sehorn!"

"We can't take a RB from Penn State because Blair Thomas!"

"We can't draft a QB from Duke because Dave Brown!"

So it should come as no surprise that the same fanbase has a new rallying cry:

"We can't play Jones as a rookie because David Carr!"
RE: RE: I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
Thegratefulhead : 9/10/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14570329 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14570314 Zeke's Alibi said:


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of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.



I think I recently read that since 2006ish that only 10% of the teams who started 0-2 make the playoffs. So I agree, Eli should sit for Jones if we go down to Buffalo.

Unfortunately I think Eli is in the saddle until we are officially, mathematically eliminated. And that will be precious time lost...
I don't think that is true BW. You think Mara will have the stomach to hear the entire stadium chanting for Jones when we lose home games? That is the future for Eli,The Giants and Jones, bank on it.
RE: RE: RE: I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14570334 Bill L said:
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In comment 14570329 bw in dc said:


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In comment 14570314 Zeke's Alibi said:


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of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.



I think I recently read that since 2006ish that only 10% of the teams who started 0-2 make the playoffs. So I agree, Eli should sit for Jones if we go down to Buffalo.

Unfortunately I think Eli is in the saddle until we are officially, mathematically eliminated. And that will be precious time lost...



I'd like to get a better feel for "precious". Is there a detonator somewhere?

Funny thing about "precious" is that it has multiple meanings. Like, for example, I might use it like this, "it's starting to feel like the basis of your position in this argument is not wanting to say goodbye to your precious Eli, rather than any particular concern in either direction about what's in the best interest of the team's long-term potential."
That was pretty funny  
Jimmy Googs : 9/10/2019 2:00 pm : link
.
RE: Eli is now one game over .500 for his career.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/10/2019 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14570256 Dave in Hoboken said:
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It's going to be something if he retires from here with a sub .500 record. I mean, if the Giants lose this weekend, he has a .500 career record. I don't know why people want to see that happen.


I wonder if that record is a part of the thinking process if they lose this week.
RE: RE: Eli is now one game over .500 for his career.  
bigbluehoya : 9/10/2019 2:19 pm : link
In comment 14570467 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14570256 Dave in Hoboken said:


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It's going to be something if he retires from here with a sub .500 record. I mean, if the Giants lose this weekend, he has a .500 career record. I don't know why people want to see that happen.



I wonder if that record is a part of the thinking process if they lose this week.


If any Eli-specific record good/bad/otherwise is on the mind of any NYG decision-makers, then this organization has lost its way even more than it's been given credit for.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
Bill L : 9/10/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14570347 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14570334 Bill L said:


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In comment 14570329 bw in dc said:


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In comment 14570314 Zeke's Alibi said:


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of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.



I think I recently read that since 2006ish that only 10% of the teams who started 0-2 make the playoffs. So I agree, Eli should sit for Jones if we go down to Buffalo.

Unfortunately I think Eli is in the saddle until we are officially, mathematically eliminated. And that will be precious time lost...



I'd like to get a better feel for "precious". Is there a detonator somewhere?


Funny thing about "precious" is that it has multiple meanings. Like, for example, I might use it like this, "it's starting to feel like the basis of your position in this argument is not wanting to say goodbye to your precious Eli, rather than any particular concern in either direction about what's in the best interest of the team's long-term potential."


Actually, that would be the same meaning.

I actually don't have that strong a feeling for Eli per se, but since yours (and others) antipathy is so , so extreme, it must seem that way to you. As I said, I think when the time comes for them to concede the season, then it will be time and, even more so, there will *always* be enough time (hence, my raising an eyebrow at bw's use of "precious"), to get Jones fully developed. No need to take a dive at the beginning of the season.
two new vocab words added today  
ron mexico : 9/10/2019 3:21 pm : link
Thanks Bill!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I think this game is a must win for Eli, there is literally no point  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14570561 Bill L said:
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In comment 14570347 Gatorade Dunk said:


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In comment 14570334 Bill L said:


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In comment 14570329 bw in dc said:


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In comment 14570314 Zeke's Alibi said:


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of trotting him out there after starting 0-2. DJ isn't getting ruined behind this line and he looks ready. Although ill start pressing the panic button if he fumbles again in his next action. Needs to clean that up, really strange considering he wasn't a big tumbler in college.



I think I recently read that since 2006ish that only 10% of the teams who started 0-2 make the playoffs. So I agree, Eli should sit for Jones if we go down to Buffalo.

Unfortunately I think Eli is in the saddle until we are officially, mathematically eliminated. And that will be precious time lost...



I'd like to get a better feel for "precious". Is there a detonator somewhere?


Funny thing about "precious" is that it has multiple meanings. Like, for example, I might use it like this, "it's starting to feel like the basis of your position in this argument is not wanting to say goodbye to your precious Eli, rather than any particular concern in either direction about what's in the best interest of the team's long-term potential."



Actually, that would be the same meaning.

I actually don't have that strong a feeling for Eli per se, but since yours (and others) antipathy is so , so extreme, it must seem that way to you. As I said, I think when the time comes for them to concede the season, then it will be time and, even more so, there will *always* be enough time (hence, my raising an eyebrow at bw's use of "precious"), to get Jones fully developed. No need to take a dive at the beginning of the season.

I was waiting for you to point out (correctly) that the meaning was the same.

As for the rest, if you think you don't have a strong feeling but somehow think I harbor any sort of antipathy, I suggest you rethink your position (and possibly your EQ in general). My hope is that the franchise, despite a recent history of poor decisions and half-measures, sets forward on a course that prioritizes the future and the long-term best interests of the roster. Unlike you, it seems, I think this season is likely to be yet another mediocre campaign, with yet another record below .500 and yet another high draft pick.

With that in mind, I don't quite give a rat's ass about who gives us the best chance to win games this season in what I consider to be a largely meaningless season in terms of W/L record. I care about what gives us the best chance to win our next Super Bowl. I'm quite confident that Eli will not be the QB whenever it is that we hoist our next Lombardi Trophy, and as such, I would prefer to begin the maturation process with Jones that will hopefully accelerate the timeline toward that next championship.

As to your suggestion that "there will *always* be enough time, that seems like a weird statement. If something takes X amount of time, then it takes X amount of time. Starting it tomorrow instead of today means you complete it a day later, too. But of course, if you're emotionally invested in whatever motivates you to procrastinate, maybe you'd actually prefer to complete it later. Just don't pretend that that's some sort of impartial take.

Now back to your regularly scheduled charade that your position in this debate isn't ENTIRELY about prolonging the Eli Manning era.
I agree with GD  
.McL. : 9/10/2019 3:38 pm : link
I am not an Eli hater by any stretch. I am still rooting for the guy...

But since this is his last year witht he team, and I never expected anything like 500 or above. To me he is entirely inconsequential.

My only concern is the long term and what will get us to the point of that next Lombardi. Full Stop.
See, here's the disconnect:  
Britt in VA : 9/10/2019 3:40 pm : link
Quote:
With that in mind, I don't quite give a rat's ass about who gives us the best chance to win games this season in what I consider to be a largely meaningless season in terms of W/L record.


You have no skin in the game. The people that are paid to win games and are on and off the hot seat on a weekly basis do care who gives them the best chance. And it's not just coaches. Coaches and players lose jobs. It's a results based business and maybe Shurmur isn't as confident in keeping his job if he loses the next ten games in a row testing the rookie. Yeah, maybe it makes Daniel Jones get a little more experience, but all that losing certainly tightens the noose around Shurmur's neck, and can have effects on players on the roster as well.

It's fun to think big picture as a fan, but being wrong or right doesn't cost us anything.
And I did say it was a results based business and I understand...  
Britt in VA : 9/10/2019 3:43 pm : link
that Eli has been the QB without a return on great results. But they are evaluating the team, and they do not consider him a primary factor in those results< I guess.
RE: See, here's the disconnect:  
bigbluehoya : 9/10/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14570611 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


With that in mind, I don't quite give a rat's ass about who gives us the best chance to win games this season in what I consider to be a largely meaningless season in terms of W/L record.



You have no skin in the game. The people that are paid to win games and are on and off the hot seat on a weekly basis do care who gives them the best chance. And it's not just coaches. Coaches and players lose jobs. It's a results based business and maybe Shurmur isn't as confident in keeping his job if he loses the next ten games in a row testing the rookie. Yeah, maybe it makes Daniel Jones get a little more experience, but all that losing certainly tightens the noose around Shurmur's neck, and can have effects on players on the roster as well.

It's fun to think big picture as a fan, but being wrong or right doesn't cost us anything.


Do you really think that 4-12 with Jones as the QB gets Shurmur's seat hotter than 8-8 with Eli?

(cast aside the suggestion that there's probably far less than a 4 game differential between the choices)

I have to imagine that both Shurmur and Gettleman are here until there's at least an indicative sample of Jones as starting QB unless there's some level of off-field disfunction that becomes untenable.
They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
Britt in VA : 9/10/2019 3:52 pm : link
There is too much invested, and it's just not in their DNA. They're not going to do it.

bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/10/2019 3:53 pm : link
I think Jones looking good towards the end of the year for a few games can save Shurmur's job even if we end up 4-12.
At this point,  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/10/2019 3:57 pm : link
I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that 2020 is the year they are shooting for to be truly competitive again. They know it's not happening this season. This is a transitional season at best. Get rid of some the leftover brutal contracts, playout the the last year of the 'dead era' of the past 7 years, and get another high draft pick in 2020 along with all of the money coming off the cap for FA next year. That's where we are.
I donít think playing jones  
ron mexico : 9/10/2019 3:57 pm : link
Means tanking

And I donít think Many players would complain either. We saw how shep and Saquan stood up for him to Baker and how impressed Tate was with his accuracy.

RE: They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
bigbluehoya : 9/10/2019 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14570634 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There is too much invested, and it's just not in their DNA. They're not going to do it.

bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.


I simply don't see how playing Jones can be dismissed out of hand as a tank-job. I'm not saying it's an odds-on bet, but there is a chance this offense gets BETTER. Let's face it, Eli may not be a "problem" per se, but the offensive scoring output hasn't been adequate (even if the defense is THE problem). Maybe it even changes some of the energy around the team.

I do agree that Jones probably will not see the field as the starting QB until mathematically eliminated, or close to it, because I think management is still operating sub-optimally. (the standard little impasse that you and I have sometimes had in these discussions between 'should'/opinions and 'will'/predictions).

And keep in mind, all of what I'm saying is predicated on a terrible start over 3-4 games, as in 0-3, 1-3, etc. Even just 2-2 and I give it 2-3 more games no complaints, and re-assess from there (assuming Eli does not actually become a problem with his play).
I continue to be fascinated...  
bw in dc : 9/10/2019 4:06 pm : link
by this notion - well, in some eyes it's apparently a given - that Eli gives us the best chance to win. Therefore, the job should unquestionably be his until whenever the subjective transition time presents itself. And we should ignore the results of the last 7-8 years. That's mostly the team's fault, and less Eli's.

But I'm going to keep pounding the cyber table here and say that Jones looks to have more dimensions to his game than Eli - athletically it's not even really close - and that expands Shurmur's playbook options. So if you believe most of that theory, than I think it's safe to extrapolate that out to mean that we have more chances to win. Or to at least be a wash between Jones and Eli.

If Jones was truly Eli 2.0 physically - good arm but very immobile - than I could sort of buy the strategy to start Eli (to a degree). But the only similarities are the cheesy mannerisms, the Cutcliffe connection, and they are right-handed.

So in the garage sits a potentially better model of Eli. And the old car with FM/AM and manual windows rolls back onto the field...
RE: RE: They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
Britt in VA : 9/10/2019 4:06 pm : link
In comment 14570667 bigbluehoya said:
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In comment 14570634 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


There is too much invested, and it's just not in their DNA. They're not going to do it.

bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.



I simply don't see how playing Jones can be dismissed out of hand as a tank-job. I'm not saying it's an odds-on bet, but there is a chance this offense gets BETTER. Let's face it, Eli may not be a "problem" per se, but the offensive scoring output hasn't been adequate (even if the defense is THE problem). Maybe it even changes some of the energy around the team.

I do agree that Jones probably will not see the field as the starting QB until mathematically eliminated, or close to it, because I think management is still operating sub-optimally. (the standard little impasse that you and I have sometimes had in these discussions between 'should'/opinions and 'will'/predictions).

And keep in mind, all of what I'm saying is predicated on a terrible start over 3-4 games, as in 0-3, 1-3, etc. Even just 2-2 and I give it 2-3 more games no complaints, and re-assess from there (assuming Eli does not actually become a problem with his play).


And I think they will. If this thing goes south early, then the needle will move closer towards putting Jones in.

As I said earlier, it's fluid.
RE: They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
Tesla : 9/10/2019 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14570634 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.


On this I agree with you as well. Mara will insist that Eli get every chance to turn this thing around, and will not allow Jones to start until there is either literally or virtually no chance for them to make the playoffs.

But I disagree with you about the resining - it's not because he believes Eli gives them the best chance to win, it's because he considers Eli as something akin to a son. (And I do think it's Mara calling the shots here.) What Shurmur thinks is best for the team I really couldn't say.

Eli is now playing for his job.  
Britt in VA : 9/10/2019 4:07 pm : link
Every day in practice and every game.
RE: RE: They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
bigbluehoya : 9/10/2019 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14570676 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 14570634 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.



On this I agree with you as well. Mara will insist that Eli get every chance to turn this thing around, and will not allow Jones to start until there is either literally or virtually no chance for them to make the playoffs.

But I disagree with you about the resining - it's not because he believes Eli gives them the best chance to win, it's because he considers Eli as something akin to a son. (And I do think it's Mara calling the shots here.) What Shurmur thinks is best for the team I really couldn't say.


Careful -- many here are insistent that Eli being the QB right now is all Shurmur and nobody else. Mara has nothing to do with it.
to follow up on my last post -  
ron mexico : 9/10/2019 4:10 pm : link
and this is entering tin foil hat territory but...

We heard rumors that the org didn't want OBJ around to be a bad influence on a rookie QB.

I wonder if the real concern was they didn't want OBJ in the locker room that had both Eli and a promising rookie.
RE: See, here's the disconnect:  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 4:13 pm : link
In comment 14570611 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


With that in mind, I don't quite give a rat's ass about who gives us the best chance to win games this season in what I consider to be a largely meaningless season in terms of W/L record.



You have no skin in the game. The people that are paid to win games and are on and off the hot seat on a weekly basis do care who gives them the best chance. And it's not just coaches. Coaches and players lose jobs. It's a results based business and maybe Shurmur isn't as confident in keeping his job if he loses the next ten games in a row testing the rookie. Yeah, maybe it makes Daniel Jones get a little more experience, but all that losing certainly tightens the noose around Shurmur's neck, and can have effects on players on the roster as well.

It's fun to think big picture as a fan, but being wrong or right doesn't cost us anything.

That's a VERY fair point, and you're right - their motivations are much more real in that sense.

That said, there's also something to be said for being realistic and managing expectations to that end. What I mean by that is, if this team sucks this year totally independent of whichever QB is playing, going 2-14 with an established (even if aging) franchise QB is going to look a lot worse for Shurmur than if he racks up that record with a rookie QB taking his lumps. At least if this year's record can be thrown away internally in the name of building toward the future, that might buy Shurmur some leeway that going balls out and failing won't.

I don't know how Mara and Tisch will see it, and can't pretend to, but I don't think it's just a matter of a win is a win is a win when you're in a transitional phase of a rebuild. And even as I say that, I don't know if Mara and Tisch are even aware that they are in the middle of a rebuild right now whether they like it or not.
You think going 6-10 with Eli is better than 3-13 with Jones  
Jim in Hoboken : 9/10/2019 4:17 pm : link
for Shurmurís job prospect? I donít.

Eli might be better, sad to say the margin isnít much at this point. Dinking and dunking all game knowing your defense is giving up 30+ points isnít a recipe for winning.
RE: They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14570634 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There is too much invested, and it's just not in their DNA. They're not going to do it.

bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.

This also presumes that Eli does, in fact, give them a better chance to win a meaningful amount more games this season. To the extent that Jones is simply a better fit for Shurmur's offense from a physical standpoint, I don't know how much more Eli's experience and mental edge makes up for the physical gap. It's definitely some amount, but I don't know how much in the aggregate. Is it one win? Two? More? Are there games that Eli would win that Jones would lose but also some games that Jones might win that Eli might lose?

I think it's pretty close, although with the OL finally resembling an actual NFL line, it's probably more tilted toward Eli than it would have been the past couple of years. I think with the line as bad as it was in '17 and '18, Jones's athleticism would have presented a very interesting option. But that's just conjecture anyway.
RE: to follow up on my last post -  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 4:24 pm : link
In comment 14570686 ron mexico said:
Quote:
and this is entering tin foil hat territory but...

We heard rumors that the org didn't want OBJ around to be a bad influence on a rookie QB.

I wonder if the real concern was they didn't want OBJ in the locker room that had both Eli and a promising rookie.

Hard to refute that since they did trade OBJ, but keep in mind that the most vocal source of that speculation went out in a wild meltdown that called most of his asshat info into question.
He's done being able to put the team  
widmerseyebrow : 9/10/2019 4:29 pm : link
on his back (which is what today's team would require to be a SB contender) and he's not going to be here whenever the team is talented enough to not need an otherworldly QB to win.

We're about 3-5 years too late on the rebuild to justify him starting today.
RE: You think going 6-10 with Eli is better than 3-13 with Jones  
Britt in VA : 9/10/2019 4:44 pm : link
In comment 14570705 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
for Shurmurís job prospect? I donít.

Eli might be better, sad to say the margin isnít much at this point. Dinking and dunking all game knowing your defense is giving up 30+ points isnít a recipe for winning.


They wonít make it there with Manning. Jones will have been inserted before we got to 6-10.
RE: RE: to follow up on my last post -  
ron mexico : 9/10/2019 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14570720 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14570686 ron mexico said:


Quote:


and this is entering tin foil hat territory but...

We heard rumors that the org didn't want OBJ around to be a bad influence on a rookie QB.

I wonder if the real concern was they didn't want OBJ in the locker room that had both Eli and a promising rookie.


Hard to refute that since they did trade OBJ, but keep in mind that the most vocal source of that speculation went out in a wild meltdown that called most of his asshat info into question.


true true

its not a completely fleshed out theory. I need a way to work Sasquatch in
RE: See, here's the disconnect:  
Junior22 : 9/10/2019 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14570611 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


With that in mind, I don't quite give a rat's ass about who gives us the best chance to win games this season in what I consider to be a largely meaningless season in terms of W/L record.



You have no skin in the game. The people that are paid to win games and are on and off the hot seat on a weekly basis do care who gives them the best chance. And it's not just coaches. Coaches and players lose jobs. It's a results based business and maybe Shurmur isn't as confident in keeping his job if he loses the next ten games in a row testing the rookie. Yeah, maybe it makes Daniel Jones get a little more experience, but all that losing certainly tightens the noose around Shurmur's neck, and can have effects on players on the roster as well.

It's fun to think big picture as a fan, but being wrong or right doesn't cost us anything.


Dude you are acting like eli is going to win games. Wli is cooked and then story has been the same for 7 years. Only difference is that before the eli fans would blame their own mother before eli and now the oline is much improved and eli still cant produce points. Nothing eli can do with this below average team that Jones cant and jones would be learning. Eli will just be losing and making bank
RE: They're just not going to tank for one player's development.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/10/2019 9:21 pm : link
In comment 14570634 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There is too much invested, and it's just not in their DNA. They're not going to do it.

bw and I don't agree on much, but even he and I agree (and I think most of you actually do to but are unwilling to concede it) that Jones won't see the field until we are mathematically eliminated or completely noncompetitive.


I am willing to concede it.

And I base that on little to no confidence in this front office to understand how really noncompetitive this team is with Eli at QB. So we wait...

But before you defenders sink your fangs in that statement, I am not blaming on Eli on the losing. I am only stating we are simply not going to win consistently any more with him at QB, and that is something this poster has been beating the drum on since after the season 2016 season.

And still we wait...
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