I don’t get the Eli is done narrative?

Eli has not been good for three years now. I don't think he can elevate a team.

The Giants have made numerous mistakes that have exacerbated Eli's decline - poor OL, coaches whose systems are not a fit for Eli - but I do think he's in decline. I think he can win, but he needs an ideal scenario to do so. I have a hard time thinking Eli is anything more than average these days, and think he's definitely below average.

In comment 14567235 Tim in VA said:

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Good effort but it's the same sad group that has been banging this drum for years now. I'm not sure what the psychology is behind it. Eli didn't win the game, therefore he can't win for them. Guys like Tim Brady go out there on defense and win the game for the Patriots, why couldn't Eli stop Dallas' offense? He only threw for 300 and a TD with no picks with Shepherd as his #1 WR. Any other NFL QB would have doubled that, like Ben Roethlisberger. Didn't you watch the amazing Sam Darnold tearing through the Bills defense? Or Josh Rosen? Or Josh Allen? We should have dumped Eli for one of them. He's certainly no Ben Roethlisberger...that's a guy who can strap the team on his back and win vs a better opponent. Didn't you watch last night? Yup, he's clearly done. This defense is a playoff contender...just need a better QB.

Or... see if you can follow along here... the team - especially the defense - is so bad that Eli is an unnecessary luxury for them and almost any other use of the cap room that he's occupying this season (including simply rolling the cap space over to next season) would provide more value to a roster that is rebuilding and will be assembled around a QB who isn't Eli.

The only way it made sense to bring Eli back was to help move the franchise forward with some wins this year and maybe sneak into the playoffs ahead of schedule. It's only one game, but if that's really what this team is this year then it was a mistake to bring Eli back.

And that has nothing to do with blaming Eli. It's just acknowledging the reality that it might just be a waste of time at this point to postpone the transition to Jones if the team is going to be bad again this year.

In comment 14567254 Justlurking said:

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We are rebuilding. Having Eli on the field is a waste of time and slows the rebuilding process. Whether Eli is finished or not is irrelevant. The fact that people cannot comprehend this is astonishing.

They probably can comprehend it. They just don't want to close the book on the Eli Manning era. It's emotional, and rightfully so.

But it's tiresome to have to keep prefacing every statement with "this is because the team is bad and rebuilding, not because anyone is blaming Eli."

In comment 14567429 AcidTest said:

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In comment 14567266 Jim in Tampa said: Quote: Eli was bad Joey in VA : 2:48 am : link : reply Because this offense isn't designed for a statue to play QB. Hell Case Keenum threw for 300 yards and 3 TDs against a very good Eagles defense and had a 17-0 lead. He moved, scrambled and made good throws but his team lost because the defense was roasted like ours was. The difference is, he's a WCO QB who has mobility and Eli has zero. The key, the absolute key to this is a QB who can move and we don't start one who can. Mahomes, Wentz, Keenum, Prescott, hell name anyone not named Tom Brady and you see QBs who can move and throw. Eli can't, and never could and now at age 38 he is worse at not doing what he never could. You bench him and you open the playbook and yes it's ugly for a while until Jones learns the offense but you grow with it. Eli is done, he has been done for 3 years but John Mara declares it a sin to bench him so it's a sin. Mara is a moron whose loyalty will get us killed. Combine that with Eli's performance the last three years in which he has recorded QB Ratings that had him as the 26th ranked QB (twice) and 25th ranked QB (once). Think QB rating is a bogus stat? Then how come Brady and Brees have finished out of the top 10 in QBR just once, COMBINED in the last 10 years? QBs coming off three sub-par seasons don't suddenly get better in year 38. And as others have stated, whether you think Eli is done or not, what is the point of starting him on a team that's going nowhere? Eli's lack of mobility is a big problem.

Analysis like this always ignores the surrounding team. Brady and Brees have great offenses. As for Big Ben, and the comments above, the team has put around the aging Ben a strong OL, Bell, and Brown (over the past 5 years). This certainly helps a lot, Eli never has had that. Last night without those guys look what happened. Rivers the same; Gordon, Allen, strong OL.

In comment 14567466 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14567254 Justlurking said: Quote: We are rebuilding. Having Eli on the field is a waste of time and slows the rebuilding process. Whether Eli is finished or not is irrelevant. The fact that people cannot comprehend this is astonishing. They probably can comprehend it. They just don't want to close the book on the Eli Manning era. It's emotional, and rightfully so. But it's tiresome to have to keep prefacing every statement with "this is because the team is bad and rebuilding, not because anyone is blaming Eli."

I'm not entirely sure who "they" are. I am a huge Eli fan who is ready to move on whenever the switch happens. Jones will certainly add to the qb position. As much as I am just a fan, I don't see where the qb held the team back necessarily yesterday, and some read that as not wanting to blame the am no matter what. I think the blame is spread out like always. I certainly give more thought to the use of Barkley and the defense before putting blame on the wr, qb, and OL.

Eli is on the team. Wishing he was cut or off the team really doesn't matter since he's not just on the team, but he's starting.

It isn't about turning the page - we don't make that call. It is about the fact he's playing.

I actually think that's the part people aren't comprehending. Eli is starting, and a fair segment of fans wanted him gone when we drafted Jones. Or they want him on the bench so Jones can play. So what happens? Everything is put on his plate as being his fault, even as eyeballs are almost coaxed into a trance-like state watching Dallas ping-pong down the field like it is Tecmo Bowl.

People are so frustrated he's on the team - the game thread even had complaints while the Giants scored on their opening drive and Eli was 4-4 with a TD.

Year 8.

derp.

He’s totally overrated and a bit of a dog in my view.

The first is whether Eli is done, gunshy, scared, didn't play well "when it mattered". I think this is unfair. I just watched the highlights. As you watch the progression of the game, and the Cowboys just light it up score after score, it's not like Manning went in a shell. He opened up the second half down two scores with perfect deep pass to Latimer and drove them all the way down to the ten yard line. He came back the next drive, after yet another Cowboys score, showed athleticism breaking out of a sack, spun around and flung a perfect pass 30 yards down the field to an open receiver. Watch the highlights from halftime on. He was performing "when it mattered".

Highlights

Now, the other argument occurring here is that if this team is going to stink this bad, what's the point of Manning being out there anyways, might as well Jones get his growing pains out of the way while the rest of the team does the same. That is a completely fair and logical argument and I think there is a case to be made for that depending on how the next 2-3 games go.

But if it is a rebuilding year like so many people are saying, why is he playing. This is NOT a rebuilding year as long as Eli is under center.

In comment 14567508 Sean said:

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But if it is a rebuilding year like so many people are saying, why is he playing. This is NOT a rebuilding year as long as Eli is under center.

The only thing I can think of it being a rebuilding year and keeping Manning under center while doing so would be to help Jones and not put him out there because there is no rush. They can pick and choose when to get him acclimated.

for declining skill set. I don't see that with Eli. Maybe he's still learning to trust the OL. Maybe he doesn't mesh with Shurmur's offense.

I don't think he elevates an offense. Remember long ago when his leadership was called into question? That was set aside because his skill set and Gilbride's O made it a moot point. Now it's a young team, an O that his skill set is not a match for, and it has been a long time since Easy E posed for CiP's "relax, I got this" comic.

because the defense gave up long drives. They scored a TD, drove into Dallas territory and screwed up/got screwed, and punted. Dallas has a good defense. Sure the offense wasn't perfect, but to stay in the game yesterday they needed to be because the defense was historically bad

In comment 14567300 bw in dc said:

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was the biggest problem yesterday. The only way we could possibly win yesterday was to match Dallas in a shootout. Was Eli the right person to solve that? His QBR was 22.4 and we were 2 for 11 on third down. He had the big fumble in a very bad spot, and his YPA was 6.5. And by and large, I think the pass protection was adequate. So not compelling numbers/results to support that thought. On the other hand, our outside weapons are underwhelming. Barkley is clearly the best option, yet Shurmur underutilizes him for some inexplicable reason. And generally you have to wonder and question Shurmur’s play calling strategy. So yesterday’s offensive deficiencies were probably a combination of Eli, Shurmur, and talent.

It s been obvious for years Eli cannot win with this team, that s why IMO it s time to move on.

My pt is simple the narrative that he can’t play is a false narrative. Again, put him on Dallas, they won’t be as good as they are with Dak, but bet they win handily yesterday

In comment 14567507 Britt in VA said:

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The first is whether Eli is done, gunshy, scared, didn't play well "when it mattered". I think this is unfair. I just watched the highlights. As you watch the progression of the game, and the Cowboys just light it up score after score, it's not like Manning went in a shell. He opened up the second half down two scores with perfect deep pass to Latimer and drove them all the way down to the ten yard line. He came back the next drive, after yet another Cowboys score, showed athleticism breaking out of a sack, spun around and flung a perfect pass 30 yards down the field to an open receiver. Watch the highlights from halftime on. He was performing "when it mattered". Highlights Now, the other argument occurring here is that if this team is going to stink this bad, what's the point of Manning being out there anyways, might as well Jones get his growing pains out of the way while the rest of the team does the same. That is a completely fair and logical argument and I think there is a case to be made for that depending on how the next 2-3 games go.

that 4th and 1 play was terrible, why the hell didnt he throw that ball?

In comment 14567360 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Eli is the catch-all for many fans frustrations here. On the game thread, he was the target of at least half the discussion all while the D was letting 5 straight TD's up. His "look" is mocked. There's constant references to ownership playing him out of loyalty. It boils down to a lot of pent up frustration. Hell, you even have a thread asking what "culpability" Eli had in the loss. What culpability did ANY offensive player have in the midst of that shitshow on D? Put Jones in there and you think the results are better? There are a fair segment of fans here who have seen the trainwreck of a OL over the past decade. the lack of LB's. Defenses that literally have performed among the worst in NFL history and, gun to their head, they will say Eli has been the problem. that's one of the reasons you can't have rational discussion about the guy. And when you try to, some cockmonkey from Canada will come up with a stupid moniker like the "Eli FanBoy Club".

Exactly

In comment 14567360 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Eli is the catch-all for many fans frustrations here. On the game thread, he was the target of at least half the discussion all while the D was letting 5 straight TD's up. His "look" is mocked. There's constant references to ownership playing him out of loyalty. It boils down to a lot of pent up frustration. Hell, you even have a thread asking what "culpability" Eli had in the loss. What culpability did ANY offensive player have in the midst of that shitshow on D? Put Jones in there and you think the results are better? There are a fair segment of fans here who have seen the trainwreck of a OL over the past decade. the lack of LB's. Defenses that literally have performed among the worst in NFL history and, gun to their head, they will say Eli has been the problem. that's one of the reasons you can't have rational discussion about the guy. And when you try to, some cockmonkey from Canada will come up with a stupid moniker like the "Eli FanBoy Club".

it's time to start ignoring the stupid. Stop arguing with the people who mock Eli.

The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots.

I was just left with the feeling that it wasn't good enough. Just isn't a great fit for this type of offense at this point in his career. He can win some games but he isn't the answer anymore. I'm sorry.

that Jones or a different QB would throw to a player beyond the 1st down marker?

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The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots.

I mean, that's the inference isn't it?

You could say play calling but QB, which is horrible but execution has to come into it also. The line pass blocked well against a tough front and the receivers did not drop any balls. Also the run game was working.

I have not gone through every 3rd down play but these has been a trend for years and needs to stop. Changes need to happen and has on every position but QB.

And they spent the 6th overall pick on a quarterback. Again, what purpose does Eli starting serve. The defense is horrendous but the offense went flat after Barkley’s 60 yard run. I just hope Mara doesn’t cave to the segment of the fanbase that has an irrational sentimental attachment to keeping Eli as the starter. The asinine notion that this team is somehow a competitor this year has been predictably debunked after one embarassing

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The defense is horrendous but the offense went flat after Barkley’s 60 yard run.

Didn't they score a TD on that drive?

In comment 14567606 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Quote: The defense is horrendous but the offense went flat after Barkley’s 60 yard run. Didn't they score a TD on that drive?

Yes, on a perfect pass that hit Engram in stride out of a designed playaction rollout that Eli is terrible at.

In comment 14567576 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that Jones or a different QB would throw to a player beyond the 1st down marker? Quote: The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots. I mean, that's the inference isn't it?

There was a time his career when he would not have thrown 2 yard passes when we needed a play.

is even a good QB anymore, he's just average. This loss, however, cannot be put on him. The offense barely had the ball because of the D's incompetence. With Dallas scoring so easily, it's easy for their D to fly around the field and take chances. What D doesn't like playing with a nice cushion. Add to that PS's refusal to use SB partly out of being too cute,and partly out of what the score dictated and that played right into Dallas's hands

mediocre QB play and poor coaching are the biggest issues this team has had for a while. I think (just my opinion) that the uncertainty around Eli's status the last few years has had an adverse affect on the entire team. That conversation dominates everything.

The good new is I think we may have something in Jones. The team hasn't won with Eli for 6 out of the last 7 years, and it seems to be getting worse.

The coaching is still a problem, Gettleman needs to find the right guy after the season ends if this continues.

A solid post. FatMan as always with a trollish abusive defense of the pathetic status quo

I would rather watch the future struggle and learn than watch a season of that again. I am a consumer, that wasn't good enough for me. That's it.

man:

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There was a time his career when he would not have thrown 2 yard passes when we needed a play.

There was a time in his career when he played in an offense that was designed to make plays downfield.

It is the fundamental difference between the Gilbride system and the McAdoo/Shurmur systems.

He isn't willfully not making plays downfield.

Who exactly are the downfield threats on this team? These receivers scare precisely no one.

But he should be the starting QB until the Giants are out of it this season. If the Giants are sitting at 0-4 after the first quarter of the season...I do not see what is the downside to moving on to Jones.

In comment 14567641 Thegratefulhead said:

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I would rather watch the future struggle and learn than watch a season of that again. I am a consumer, that wasn't good enough for me. That's it.

I agree. Get the learning curve accelerated now for Jones out of the way now while the defense is being “rebuilt”. There is only so much you can absorb on the sidelines there is no substitute for real experience

In comment 14567576 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that Jones or a different QB would throw to a player beyond the 1st down marker? Quote: The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots. I mean, that's the inference isn't it?

Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.

Dallas was clearly the better team but Dak was definitively better than Eli. yesterday. It looks like have the worst starting QB in the division and we drafted a QB at 6 that looked good in camp and preseason games. Eli has to play better or the Giants have to win. I think Eli is already deservedly up against it, the Giants need to win against Buffalo or the Jones era needs to start.

there were a few occasions where they had a chance for more points and usually would have taken a FG or even played for field position by punting, but instead went for it.

In comment 14567528 joeinpa said:

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In comment 14567300 bw in dc said: Quote: was the biggest problem yesterday. The only way we could possibly win yesterday was to match Dallas in a shootout. Was Eli the right person to solve that? His QBR was 22.4 and we were 2 for 11 on third down. He had the big fumble in a very bad spot, and his YPA was 6.5. And by and large, I think the pass protection was adequate. So not compelling numbers/results to support that thought. On the other hand, our outside weapons are underwhelming. Barkley is clearly the best option, yet Shurmur underutilizes him for some inexplicable reason. And generally you have to wonder and question Shurmur’s play calling strategy. So yesterday’s offensive deficiencies were probably a combination of Eli, Shurmur, and talent. It s been obvious for years Eli cannot win with this team, that s why IMO it s time to move on. My pt is simple the narrative that he can’t play is a false narrative. Again, put him on Dallas, they won’t be as good as they are with Dak, but bet they win handily yesterday

Look, I’m in the “play Jones camp” because I simply don’t see a playoff team. So why waste time? Let’s get into the Jones Era and see if he is indeed the solution. If he is, great. Time to build around him long term. If not, then it’s back to the drawing board to find the QB piece.

I said on another thread this morning that going through the process of playing it out until we’re mathematically eliminated is just a way to say we checked the box to give Eli a chance. Another magnanimous gesture by the wonderful folks at Jints Central...

Personally, I don’t know what Eli is anymore in terms of his place in this league. Can he show up once in a while and create fireworks? Maybe. But is it still worth it to wait around for those moments? Moments that seem very likely to be fewer as he ages? That answer seems obvious to me...

but he’s not good enough to consistently make plays without a clean pocket. We don’t need a runner but we do need someone who can, 2 or 3 times a game, make a play with their legs. That guy is on the bench.

in the future. And it certainly makes us worse in the present. He's will be what he is next year, regardless of whether or not he plays this year.

In comment 14567381 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14567348 gidiefor said: Quote: he's good for this team anymore -- but I'm also not sure I want Jones under center full time just yet. He doesn't look 100% ready yet. By the way -- Darnel didn't look so hot either yesterday and the Giants are playing that same defense next week -- so I don't have much hope for our offense next week either What exactly does “100% ready” mean?

.

Good point I guess, I have a feeling we will see Jones
sooner rather than later this season. If the vet QB,
can't continually get the team into the EZ, time for a change in the near future. I have been ready for about
two years myself, just saying.

Because what I saw yesterday, I have to question if he physically can still throw balls 15-20 yards downfield with juice and does he believe he can still do it? That “2 min drive” before the half was comically inept. In the 4th quarter on 3rd and 17 and he throws it 8 yards. There was a 3rd and 14 and (with some pressure), he throws it 2 yards.

In comment 14567698 Bill L said:

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in the future. And it certainly makes us worse in the present. He's will be what he is next year, regardless of whether or not he plays this year.

i think the right tact is to get the ship "righted" so to speak, so the team is actually functioning. Then when we are eliminated put in Jones. Putting him in the crap fest we were yesterday doesn't achieve anything, in fact it could hurt his development. Its not a true narrative that any playing now is a good thing, many QB's have disproved this and had their careers altered by losing confidence early on

In comment 14567709 The_Boss said:

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Because what I saw yesterday, I have to question if he physically can still throw balls 15-20 yards downfield with juice and does he believe he can still do it? That “2 min drive” before the half was comically inept. In the 4th quarter on 3rd and 17 and he throws it 8 yards. There was a 3rd and 14 and (with some pressure), he throws it 2 yards.

How long was that Hail Mary? It was actually pretty accurate.

In comment 14567643 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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man: Quote: There was a time his career when he would not have thrown 2 yard passes when we needed a play. There was a time in his career when he played in an offense that was designed to make plays downfield. It is the fundamental difference between the Gilbride system and the McAdoo/Shurmur systems. He isn't willfully not making plays downfield.

I'm not talking about pushing the ball downfield with the back shoulders like they used to do I get that offenses different I understand it. Even in Shurmur system there are routes on every play that go down field. We don't have all 22 tape to watch together but I guarantee you there were shots to be taken. I'm not talking about guys running wide open down the field. I'm talking about, your behind, your team needs a play, give your receiver a 50/50 shot and see what happens. Don't throw a 2-yard pass in 2 seconds when you still have time that has no chance of making a first down when your team desperately needs one.

In comment 14567507 Britt in VA said:

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The first is whether Eli is done, gunshy, scared, didn't play well "when it mattered". I think this is unfair. I just watched the highlights. As you watch the progression of the game, and the Cowboys just light it up score after score, it's not like Manning went in a shell. He opened up the second half down two scores with perfect deep pass to Latimer and drove them all the way down to the ten yard line. He came back the next drive, after yet another Cowboys score, showed athleticism breaking out of a sack, spun around and flung a perfect pass 30 yards down the field to an open receiver. Watch the highlights from halftime on. He was performing "when it mattered". Highlights Now, the other argument occurring here is that if this team is going to stink this bad, what's the point of Manning being out there anyways, might as well Jones get his growing pains out of the way while the rest of the team does the same. That is a completely fair and logical argument and I think there is a case to be made for that depending on how the next 2-3 games go.

I totally agree with you on this. Very fair post.

dead-on-balls accurate.

In comment 14567712 Bill L said:

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In comment 14567709 The_Boss said: Quote: Because what I saw yesterday, I have to question if he physically can still throw balls 15-20 yards downfield with juice and does he believe he can still do it? That “2 min drive” before the half was comically inept. In the 4th quarter on 3rd and 17 and he throws it 8 yards. There was a 3rd and 14 and (with some pressure), he throws it 2 yards. How long was that Hail Mary? It was actually pretty accurate.

Or the rope for 40 yards to Latimer.

whether you think Eli is "done" or not doesn't really matter.

It's about the long term future of this franchise and having a 38 year old QB playing each week on a team that is not a playoff contender makes zero sense.

It is time to move on. We're wasting time at this point.

Call it shellshocked or whatever you want but more often than not he is looking to dump the ball off. This team can't move forward until we get past 2 time SuperBowl MVP winning QB until we move on from Eli. We have a youth movement all over the team and yet we continue to trot out Eli. He wasnt terrible yesterday, he was just OK.

Why play a just OK QB when we have a young QB who could play just OK. The last several years Eli doesnt push the ball downfield enough, he has never been able to throw a screen pass. So why stick with him. Ownership is demanding we play Eli for some reason which is hampering the development of the team. Yesterdays loss would have been much more tolerable if Jones was the QB. If you think Eli's ceiling his still higher than average at this point there is no point in discussing. He may have moments but as a whole his play will be average at best.

Getting average play from a QB when you have a young 1st round pick is unacceptable. People point to the Chiefs as a model but the Chiefs were a winning team with Smith. Right now the way the D is playing as a continuation from preseason we are looking at another top 10 pick. Do we need Eli starting for that?

In comment 14567760 Kyle in NY said:

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whether you think Eli is "done" or not doesn't really matter. It's about the long term future of this franchise and having a 38 year old QB playing each week on a team that is not a playoff contender makes zero sense. I think this is the narrative every Giants fan calling for Jones is talking about. At best this is an 8-8 team with Manning (12-16 pick in the draft) Maybe with Jones 4-12 to 8-8. But He gains experience, Giants work through any issues, and start fresh next year with a top 10 pick I love Manning and he is the best QB in Giants history but it's over It is time to move on. We're wasting time at this point.

In comment 14567698 Bill L said:

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in the future. And it certainly makes us worse in the present. He's will be what he is next year, regardless of whether or not he plays this year.

this is absolute non sense.

He will need playing time to develop into his final form, whatever that is.

Maybe 5 years down the road it wont matter, but it will absolutely matter in 2020 and 2021.