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I don’t get the Eli is done narrative?

joeinpa : 9/9/2019 7:17 am
First, I don’t think there are many if any here who wanted a young quarterback the last two seasons more than me.

But what did people see yesterday to prompt the “Eli is done” narrative that I read in the game and post game threads yesterday.

Eli has limitations, we all know that. But so do other quarterbacks throughout the league who are still winning. Does anyone here believe Eli wouldn’t be a winner with a roster like Dallas’?

Seems like there is much resentment directed towards Eli here, which I find surprising on a Giants board.

He might not be the answer here anymore, but to state unequivocally that he s done, when his stats and even his play don’t support that theory is not accurate IMO.

For the record I m ready to move on from Eli, because this team is not ready to win, not because Eli is done.

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Don't think it's rattled or gun shy....  
BillKo : 9/9/2019 10:44 am : link
..this is the offense. Look at the Pats. Brady barely goes down field anymore. But the scheme and players make it work.

The offense is a short passing game for the most part. You can see it.......

Other than Barkely, the Giants don't have the type of players to run this type of offense IMO at its full potential.

Things will get better though IMO, this season.
.  
Kyle in NY : 9/9/2019 10:47 am : link
The five year window a team gets with a QB on a rookie contract is just about the most valuable thing there is in this sport. We need to go into next season with Jones having plenty of experience and ready to push for a playoff spot after another offseason of adding talent. Because those five years will go fast. Don't waste anymore time.

Play. The. Kid.
RE: RE: Let's face it..  
V.I.G. : 9/9/2019 10:51 am : link
Quote:

The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots.

I was just left with the feeling that it wasn't good enough. Just isn't a great fit for this type of offense at this point in his career. He can win some games but he isn't the answer anymore. I'm sorry.
This is the closest I've seen FMIC point to Eli as part of the problem with this offense.

Yes, there were some 3rd & 14/17s but for the most part they were 3rd and manageable and we were not getting it done.
You keep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/9/2019 10:52 am : link
repeating this as if it is fact:

Quote:
this is absolute non sense.

He will need playing time to develop into his final form, whatever that is.

Maybe 5 years down the road it wont matter, but it will absolutely matter in 2020 and 2021.


The nonsense is stating that playing time is certain to lead to better play from Jones next season. This has been shown time and again to have a negligent impact on a QB's development.

Jones should play when the team is eliminated and they are ready to move away from Eli. Playing him just to gain "experience" has no factual evidence to support that it is any better than waiting to play him.
RE: RE: RE: Let's face it..  
Britt in VA : 9/9/2019 10:52 am : link
In comment 14567827 V.I.G. said:
Quote:


Quote:



The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots.

I was just left with the feeling that it wasn't good enough. Just isn't a great fit for this type of offense at this point in his career. He can win some games but he isn't the answer anymore. I'm sorry.

This is the closest I've seen FMIC point to Eli as part of the problem with this offense.

Yes, there were some 3rd & 14/17s but for the most part they were 3rd and manageable and we were not getting it done.


He didn't post it.
RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
V.I.G. : 9/9/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14567664 Bill L said:
Quote:
Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.

except when DJ throws quickly and with ball placement there's YAC potential for 1st downs...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let's face it..  
V.I.G. : 9/9/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14567833 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

He didn't post it.

That explains it, ooops - thanks
RE: You keep..  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14567831 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
repeating this as if it is fact:



Quote:


this is absolute non sense.

He will need playing time to develop into his final form, whatever that is.

Maybe 5 years down the road it wont matter, but it will absolutely matter in 2020 and 2021.



The nonsense is stating that playing time is certain to lead to better play from Jones next season. This has been shown time and again to have a negligent impact on a QB's development.

Jones should play when the team is eliminated and they are ready to move away from Eli. Playing him just to gain "experience" has no factual evidence to support that it is any better than waiting to play him.


hahaha

EVIDENCE!!!!

what a fucking joke



For me after the Pats in week #6  
Carl in CT : 9/9/2019 10:59 am : link
If we are not at least 3-3 it’s time for the kid.
RE: You keep..  
Kyle in NY : 9/9/2019 11:00 am : link
In comment 14567831 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
repeating this as if it is fact:



Quote:


this is absolute non sense.

He will need playing time to develop into his final form, whatever that is.

Maybe 5 years down the road it wont matter, but it will absolutely matter in 2020 and 2021.



The nonsense is stating that playing time is certain to lead to better play from Jones next season. This has been shown time and again to have a negligent impact on a QB's development.

Jones should play when the team is eliminated and they are ready to move away from Eli. Playing him just to gain "experience" has no factual evidence to support that it is any better than waiting to play him.


Doesn't it tend to be a negative to play early when the infrastructure around the young QB is poor? An OL that can't protect or a non-existent running game?

I actually liked a lot of what we saw from the offense yesterday. The improvement in the OL from week 1 last year is immense, and we know what we have at the RB position plus a great young TE. The potential positives of dropping Jones into this offense far outweigh the negatives. Everything we've seen from Jones so far suggests he's mature, well prepared, and ready for the opportunity. Let's see what we've got
Purpose starting Eli is you ply to win.  
Carl in CT : 9/9/2019 11:01 am : link
That being said at 2-4 or worse, it’s time to develop the kid. I want to win first so give it 6 games please before we start calling for Eli’s head.
The way..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/9/2019 11:06 am : link
the season is started, if we have stumbles in teh coming weeks, we'll see Jones I think:

Quote:
Doesn't it tend to be a negative to play early when the infrastructure around the young QB is poor? An OL that can't protect or a non-existent running game?

I actually liked a lot of what we saw from the offense yesterday. The improvement in the OL from week 1 last year is immense, and we know what we have at the RB position plus a great young TE. The potential positives of dropping Jones into this offense far outweigh the negatives. Everything we've seen from Jones so far suggests he's mature, well prepared, and ready for the opportunity. Let's see what we've got


He got into the game yesterday which is something we hadn't seen in previous years.

And putting aside ron's asinine remark about evidence (and you see he clearly can't fucking disprove it so he mocks it), Jones will play once the season is out of reach or when eli can't cut it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let's face it..  
Thegratefulhead : 9/9/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14567833 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14567827 V.I.G. said:


Quote:




Quote:



The real argument against Eli yesterday was that there were a lot of third downs we needed to convert and he threw to a player that had no chance of making the first down, multiple times, in key spots.

I was just left with the feeling that it wasn't good enough. Just isn't a great fit for this type of offense at this point in his career. He can win some games but he isn't the answer anymore. I'm sorry.

This is the closest I've seen FMIC point to Eli as part of the problem with this offense.

Yes, there were some 3rd & 14/17s but for the most part they were 3rd and manageable and we were not getting it done.



He didn't post it.
I did, it doesn't make it any less true.

I would have been thrilled if Manning had a game that made everyone that has mocked him eat s***.

That did not happen.

What happened was, we looked like an overmatched team not ready to compete in the NFC East.

None of us should be terribly surprised.

If you watched that and thought that the QB play was good enough we have a fundamental difference of opinion on what good quarterback play is.

That could be the fundamental reason why we all argue so much. We have different expectations on what it means to play quarterback.

That wasn't nearly good enough for me, not close. If it is good enough for you, we probably won't get past that, and we shouldn't even discuss it. Kind of one of those we need to agree to disagree things.

It's not like we all didn't know this was going to happen. Everyone from Eli to gettleman To mara to Jones all should have expected this.

I know it's early in the season but if Eli and the Giants lose to Buffalo it's time to start Jones. If he wins I say that gets him 2 more games.

I wonder..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/9/2019 11:09 am : link
what the take would be if Eli forced balls into coverage and had 3 INT's.

Would that signify courage and the board would be happy?
RE: I wonder..  
Thegratefulhead : 9/9/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14567894 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
what the take would be if Eli forced balls into coverage and had 3 INT's.

Would that signify courage and the board would be happy?
I think he was afraid of throwing those interceptions and what the reaction would have been and that is a problem. You know, he might have thrown those balls into coverage and the receiver might have made a play that changed momentum. He didn't give himself the chance to be great.
RE: RE: I wonder..  
V.I.G. : 9/9/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14567920 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
I think he was afraid of throwing those interceptions and what the reaction would have been and that is a problem. You know, he might have thrown those balls into coverage and the receiver might have made a play that changed momentum. He didn't give himself the chance to be great.

+1 We all loved Eli when he made plays, good and bad. now's he's missing 100% of the shots he doesn't take.
The hell..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/9/2019 11:19 am : link
we all loved Eli when he made bad plays!

How many times did people say he cost us points by throwing a pick?

RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
Bill L : 9/9/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14567839 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14567664 Bill L said:


Quote:


Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.


except when DJ throws quickly and with ball placement there's YAC potential for 1st downs...


Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?
I still thought the guy was still pushing the ball downfield....  
Britt in VA : 9/9/2019 11:22 am : link
later in the game, I mean, the highlights are posted right up there.

Down 21-7, deep pass to Latimer on the money, down 28-10, breaking a sack and flinging it deep downfield for another completion. Then he was down 35-10.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 11:23 am : link
In comment 14567936 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14567839 V.I.G. said:


Quote:


In comment 14567664 Bill L said:


Quote:


Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.


except when DJ throws quickly and with ball placement there's YAC potential for 1st downs...



Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?


1

2 if you count the run before the fumble (which you shouldn't)
RE: RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
V.I.G. : 9/9/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14567936 Bill L said:
Quote:

Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?

He had two. The 2nd ending with a fumble.
RE: The hell..  
V.I.G. : 9/9/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14567933 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
we all loved Eli when he made bad plays!

How many times did people say he cost us points by throwing a pick?

We knew he was a gunslinger with a propensity for boneheaded plays but he was my QB that I wanted more than anyone in the fourth quarter. Now he's checkdown charlie that can't get first downs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
Bill L : 9/9/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14567945 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14567936 Bill L said:


Quote:



Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?


He had two. The 2nd ending with a fumble.
and eli had how many in his first drive?
RE: I think that it's a myth that plyaing Jones now does anything for you  
bw in dc : 9/9/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14567698 Bill L said:
Quote:
in the future. And it certainly makes us worse in the present. He's will be what he is next year, regardless of whether or not he plays this year.


How do you know playing Jones will make us worse now? Because he's a rookie? I don't know how many times I have to write it but Jones seems to have dimensions in his game that are more suited to Shurmur's playbook. He most certainly has the ability to extend plays and convert first downs with his legs. Eli offers NONE of that. And if Jones does that, it's a force multiplier impact because it means more time on the sidelines for our swiss cheese defense.

Playing Jones now accelerates everything - his learning curve, options in Shurmur's playbook, and whether Jones is the solution.
We scored 10 points  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/9/2019 11:27 am : link
when the game was just somewhat still in contention and before Dallas took out their starters and laid off the gas pedal. That's not going to get it done.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/9/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14567936 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14567839 V.I.G. said:


Quote:


In comment 14567664 Bill L said:


Quote:


Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.


except when DJ throws quickly and with ball placement there's YAC potential for 1st downs...



Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?

Out of curiosity, since it seems like you're in favor of Eli remaining the starter, what's your reasoning for doing so? Do you see this team having a realistic chance at the playoffs? Do you think Eli starting helps Jones' development (and by extension has some long-term benefit to the franchise)?

I'm just curious because it seems like you are very quick to point out potential negatives regarding Jones, but often take the opposite angle when discussing Eli, so it's pretty clear (or seems to be) that you favor Eli as the QB. What's the reason for that?
RE: RE: I think that it's a myth that plyaing Jones now does anything for you  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 11:31 am : link
In comment 14567959 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14567698 Bill L said:


Quote:


in the future. And it certainly makes us worse in the present. He's will be what he is next year, regardless of whether or not he plays this year.



How do you know playing Jones will make us worse now? Because he's a rookie? I don't know how many times I have to write it but Jones seems to have dimensions in his game that are more suited to Shurmur's playbook. He most certainly has the ability to extend plays and convert first downs with his legs. Eli offers NONE of that. And if Jones does that, it's a force multiplier impact because it means more time on the sidelines for our swiss cheese defense.

Playing Jones now accelerates everything - his learning curve, options in Shurmur's playbook, and whether Jones is the solution.


But EVIDENCE shows that he will turn in to Christian Ponder if we play him!!!

His this team left wins on the table  
justafan : 9/9/2019 11:38 am : link
with Eli under center the last few years? If you went back and look at the games you could make that argument. No. Until now, there has not been a viable alternative, but that may have changed in April.

Were enough wins left on the table to be competitive? No. If DJ played yesterday and was lights out would it have mattered? Not with how the secondary played. At some point this year DJ will be given the reins cause this team is not going to the playoffs. Unfortunately, the easy schedule early will prolong living in the past.
Why pull  
crick n NC : 9/9/2019 11:38 am : link
Each other's hair over our opinions of whether it's better for a qb to start right away or sit. I don't think either is wrong, but dependent on who the qb is.

I think Jones is the type that could step in and be fine, but perhaps they are waiting until he is more comfortable with the offense
RE: I still thought the guy was still pushing the ball downfield....  
Thegratefulhead : 9/9/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14567940 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
later in the game, I mean, the highlights are posted right up there.

Down 21-7, deep pass to Latimer on the money, down 28-10, breaking a sack and flinging it deep downfield for another completion. Then he was down 35-10.
Britt, I got excited there too. I jumped off the couch and roared, yeah that's what I want to see. Then he stopped. Britt I am not against you for taking the position you are. I get it, I really do and I admire you for it, that's honest. It's just flashes though, it reminds us of what he was, there's no consistency to it.

I'm not to the point of benching him. I think Manning deserves to start against Buffalo. If we see the same thing and we are 0 and 2 I'm done and I'll be hoping for a change every game after that. I think he's lost that thing that makes him special and he can summon it for a few passes but then it fades. For me it's very sad to watch. I'm not a person that hates Eli or the thinks he's been lucky. I think Eli is a Hall of Fame QB. This just isn't that guy anymore. I'm not a hater.
RE: Why pull  
bw in dc : 9/9/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14567994 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Each other's hair over our opinions of whether it's better for a qb to start right away or sit. I don't think either is wrong, but dependent on who the qb is.

I think Jones is the type that could step in and be fine, but perhaps they are waiting until he is more comfortable with the offense


Gee, that's some offense. Let's take on of the most dynamic players in the game - SB - and only give him 13 touches. SB should be touching the ball 25-30X a game with that body. Jones could just as easily hand the ball off to SB, and check passes down to him, as Eli.

If we're going to lose, let's lose using our best player. Not trying to manage some horse manure pitch count because of longevity concerns. Shurmur's judgment really needs to be questioned at this point.
Eli isn't the problem.  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/9/2019 11:47 am : link
He also isn't the solution. And if the Giants had any sort of defense, a real NFL WR corps and better coaching, it might be worth a closer look at whether he's the problem. At this point, he's pretty far down the list of problems.
RE: RE: Why pull  
crick n NC : 9/9/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14568025 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14567994 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Each other's hair over our opinions of whether it's better for a qb to start right away or sit. I don't think either is wrong, but dependent on who the qb is.

I think Jones is the type that could step in and be fine, but perhaps they are waiting until he is more comfortable with the offense



Gee, that's some offense. Let's take on of the most dynamic players in the game - SB - and only give him 13 touches. SB should be touching the ball 25-30X a game with that body. Jones could just as easily hand the ball off to SB, and check passes down to him, as Eli.

If we're going to lose, let's lose using our best player. Not trying to manage some horse manure pitch count because of longevity concerns. Shurmur's judgment really needs to be questioned at this point.


I'm not arguing the quality of Shurmur's offense, I am talking about a rookie qb being more comfortable in a different offense on a higher level of competition.
Who cares at this point. Try all options and see what  
Jimmy Googs : 9/9/2019 12:08 pm : link
positive results can be had. Is there a downside to a team that is charging full-steam ahead to nowhere, and another top 6 pick in next year's draft?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
Bill L : 9/9/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14567966 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14567936 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14567839 V.I.G. said:


Quote:


In comment 14567664 Bill L said:


Quote:


Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.


except when DJ throws quickly and with ball placement there's YAC potential for 1st downs...



Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?


Out of curiosity, since it seems like you're in favor of Eli remaining the starter, what's your reasoning for doing so? Do you see this team having a realistic chance at the playoffs? Do you think Eli starting helps Jones' development (and by extension has some long-term benefit to the franchise)?

I'm just curious because it seems like you are very quick to point out potential negatives regarding Jones, but often take the opposite angle when discussing Eli, so it's pretty clear (or seems to be) that you favor Eli as the QB. What's the reason for that?


I think Eli gives us the best chance to win each game this year.

I don't think it hurts (or helps) Jones to not play this year wrt future development (i.e., I don't believe our record will be better next year or any of the subsequent years if he plays now than it would ordinarily be). Even if so, if we lose 2 more games this year and win 2 more next year by playing them, next years wins don't count anymore than this year's.

I am strongly morally/ethically opposed to not trying to win games or not trying to do your best, under *any* circumstances. (If I even remotely as a fan of the '76ers' (or Miami Dolphins) I certainly would not be any longer.)
The real shame here is...  
CardinalX : 9/9/2019 1:28 pm : link
And you can call me premature etc all you want, but I have a gut feeling about this. The crime here is similar to that of the Anaheim Angels with Mike Trout:

We have a generational talent in Saquon Barkely, much like Trout on the Angels... who may never get to that championship game. Not for lack of effort or talent but due to the mediocrity of the team that surrounds them.

In the Giants case, this lies at the feet of the GM and personnel decision makers. Maybe it's the HC, maybe its the playcallers. Maybe it's the players, but likely it's a combination thereof. But in this day and age, you dont get 10 years to recover and then start getting back in the mix. If you take a longterm approach, you're gonna get swallowed by the league and languish in mediocrity.

This is Gettleman's team now. He's gonna make decisions this season on Eli (more accurately, on when to move on from Eli) as well as the coordinators and head coach. This I believe is his defining year. What he does or doesn't due with this team while the season is playing out will decide next year. I dont hold him to success this year as the whole Eli thing still needs to run its course. But you decide by like week 6 and then you go with that.


This is more nonsense  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 1:30 pm : link
“Even if so, if we lose 2 more games this year and win 2 more next year by playing them, next years wins don't count anymore than this year's.”

If we win five or six this year and 7 or 8 next year, that two win sing you mention will be huge.

I don’t know if we will win 7-8 games next year but 5-6 this year is feeling about right.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is the assumption...  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/9/2019 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14568201 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14567966 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14567936 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14567839 V.I.G. said:


Quote:


In comment 14567664 Bill L said:


Quote:


Every pass that Jones threw yesterday, except the bad overthrow, was the exact same short out that Eli threw. It screams scheme.


except when DJ throws quickly and with ball placement there's YAC potential for 1st downs...



Really? How many first downs did Jones have yesterday?


Out of curiosity, since it seems like you're in favor of Eli remaining the starter, what's your reasoning for doing so? Do you see this team having a realistic chance at the playoffs? Do you think Eli starting helps Jones' development (and by extension has some long-term benefit to the franchise)?

I'm just curious because it seems like you are very quick to point out potential negatives regarding Jones, but often take the opposite angle when discussing Eli, so it's pretty clear (or seems to be) that you favor Eli as the QB. What's the reason for that?



I think Eli gives us the best chance to win each game this year.

I don't think it hurts (or helps) Jones to not play this year wrt future development (i.e., I don't believe our record will be better next year or any of the subsequent years if he plays now than it would ordinarily be). Even if so, if we lose 2 more games this year and win 2 more next year by playing them, next years wins don't count anymore than this year's.

I am strongly morally/ethically opposed to not trying to win games or not trying to do your best, under *any* circumstances. (If I even remotely as a fan of the '76ers' (or Miami Dolphins) I certainly would not be any longer.)

I think that's fair, though I disagree with you on a few points.

Regarding next year's wins not counting any more than this year's, I think this is a 6-8 win team this year at best. I think, with another very good draft and enough cap room to allow all personnel decisions to be purely merit-based, next year's team could be a legitimate playoff contender. If playing Jones turns us into a 4-6 win team this year instead, but adds two wins to next year's presumably stronger team, that's absolute a trade-off that I'd make 100% of the time.

The two wins between 10 and 12 can be the difference between being a wild card vs. a division winner (and a chance at home field in the playoffs). The two wins between 4 and 6 matter for the draft and nothing else. In that scenario, next year's wins are worth more, wouldn't you agree?

And while I understand where you're coming from WRT tanking, I think there's a difference between actively trying to tank for the full season vs. being willing to take a chance on the development of potential for the long-term benefit even if that means that your ability to win some of your games is compromised in the near-term.

Finally, I disagree with your suggestion that there is no material benefit to Jones in gaining experience this season and that he'll be the same QB next season whether he starts this year or not. IMO, it's not even about the game experience, though I think that alone is worth more than you're giving it credit for.

The real benefit to transitioning to Jones as the starter is that he gets the practice reps with the 1's. Practice time is so limited as it is in the NFL, and it's not like they can just tack on an extra 30 minutes to practice to make sure DJ gets reps. So long as he's the #2, his practice reps will be extremely limited, whereas if he was the #1, he'd be getting the bulk of the work throughout the week - I don't know how you can suggest that getting those practice reps this season won't translate to any sort of accelerated development for Jones that could result in a material difference as soon as next season.
Playing like a team in that 5-11 to 8-8 record area will get you  
CardinalX : 9/9/2019 1:42 pm : link
Nothing but perpetual mediocrity. Shitty draft picks and a world of excuses and "we're close... wait until next year" mentality. You either tank and draft well. Use the current year to prune the best talent on your team and who you can pinch from other teams or go balls out and burn every bridge to go for it.

Playing in the middle isn't safe. It's a death sentence.

And for the record... I was and am not a fan of the Shurmer hiring. An OC that got stymied in the playoffs by our chief competition is not someone I'm gonna get excited about. Didnt like the Snacks deal either. He should be a Giant. I'm open still to the Daniel Jones thingee... I think he has very solid potential. But as a compliment to Barkely. Not as the primary piece on the team.

I also was shocked by the Beckham issue and ultimate trade. Why did we lock this guy up and then toss away all that money for a guy we were never enamored with and so willing to just give away for a player and some picks? I still dont get why we made him the #1 paid receiver if we weren't gonna hold onto him for at least a couple years.
The idea that there isn’t a benefit to playing time is ridiculous  
ajr2456 : 9/9/2019 1:44 pm : link
Jones needs to learn how to play in the NFL. When he first steps on the field there are going to be bumps in the road.

Jones will in all likely hood be a better QB in Year 2 than in Year 1. This team isn’t going anywhere this year and it makes more sense to look for Jones taking the next step in 2020 than in 2021.
The narrative that Eli is done is not a narrative  
twostepgiants : 9/9/2019 1:47 pm : link
Like people are seeing what they want to see

Here are the FACTS

0-1 this year

5-12 with Shurmur

8-25 over last 2 years

38-58 over last SEVEN Years

0-1 in playoffs

Just one playoff appearance in 7 years and that team was carried by its defense

We have had 4 different HCs (Coughlin, McAdoo, Spagnoulo, Shurmur)

We have had 3 different offensive systems (and 4 different OCs (Gilbride, McAdoo, Sullivan, Shula) . He had a downfield passing offense, a West Coast offense, now an Andy Reid style one

First it was the WRs fault in 2013

Then it was the OLs fault

Then it was the offensive systems fault

Then it was the OLs fault again

Now its the defenses fault and the playcalling

The entire roster has changed 3 times over

The amount of games where this team failed to score 20 points is staggering

We have also had at least 1 of Odell Beckham and/or Saquon Barkley on the team for alot of these games

These are indisputable facts. Nothing above is disputable

At some point you have to look at the QB. Its not a narrative.
Its been 7 YEARS

Too many look at one play or one throw or one series or one game. Any NFL QB should be capable of having that. The real question is can they fo it consistently over a whole season to win enough games to make the playoffs ?

Whst in 7 years of examples tells anyone the answer is yes?


RE: The idea that there isn’t a benefit to playing time is ridiculous  
bigbluehoya : 9/9/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14568272 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Jones needs to learn how to play in the NFL. When he first steps on the field there are going to be bumps in the road.

Jones will in all likely hood be a better QB in Year 2 than in Year 1. This team isn’t going anywhere this year and it makes more sense to look for Jones taking the next step in 2020 than in 2021.


yep - some people want Eli to be the starting QB for as far as the eye can see, and I guess that's fine.

But the "there isn't really any advantage to Jones' future of having him start right now" is either some really shitty gaslighting or an Eli-related mental illness.

RE: You keep..  
.McL. : 9/9/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14567831 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
repeating this as if it is fact:



Quote:


this is absolute non sense.

He will need playing time to develop into his final form, whatever that is.

Maybe 5 years down the road it wont matter, but it will absolutely matter in 2020 and 2021.



The nonsense is stating that playing time is certain to lead to better play from Jones next season. This has been shown time and again to have a negligent impact on a QB's development.

Jones should play when the team is eliminated and they are ready to move away from Eli. Playing him just to gain "experience" has no factual evidence to support that it is any better than waiting to play him.


Interesting.

To what evidence are you referring that playing time experience has a negligible (i assume you meant this and not negligent) impact on a QB's development.

I admit that I have not seen any analysis on this either way. But it seems to be common sense that experience will help a developing QB. Plus we have empirical evidence of QB's getting better as they gain experience. Eli for example improved in year 2 over year 1, and year 3 over 2, and carried the Giants in the playoffs to the SB in year 4.

That said, common sense is often wrong when the real numbers are analyzed. So I would be curious as to what analysis you have seen that says experience is such a small factor.
RE: RE: The idea that there isn’t a benefit to playing time is ridiculous  
Jimmy Googs : 9/9/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14568287 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:

yep - some people want Eli to be the starting QB for as far as the eye can see, and I guess that's fine.

But the "there isn't really any advantage to Jones' future of having him start right now" is either some really shitty gaslighting or an Eli-related mental illness.


Its statistically-proven to not matter. It was discussed here at length. Now its just up to the coaches to tell DJ his development will be the same.

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, here are our expectations of you in 2020".

Daniel Jones: "Thanks Coach. I won't let you down."

Coach Shurmur: "We know that Daniel. And since we don't think it matters in your development, we will expect those same results in 2020 whether you play in 0, 8 or 16 games this season. Got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Um, but I think I would be able to perform to a higher level expectation in 2020 if I got some playing time as a starter in 2019."

Coach Shurmur: "Bullshit. We have the stats Daniel of QBs over the past 20 years. It doesn't matter at all, trust me".

Daniel Jones: "But coach, I don't think that makes any..."

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, who's the coach...me or you? Let me worry about your development. In the meanwhile, make sure all the Ipads are charged up before the next game, got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Yes coach".
RE: RE: RE: The idea that there isn’t a benefit to playing time is ridiculous  
bigbluehoya : 9/9/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14568387 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14568287 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:



yep - some people want Eli to be the starting QB for as far as the eye can see, and I guess that's fine.

But the "there isn't really any advantage to Jones' future of having him start right now" is either some really shitty gaslighting or an Eli-related mental illness.




Its statistically-proven to not matter. It was discussed here at length. Now its just up to the coaches to tell DJ his development will be the same.

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, here are our expectations of you in 2020".

Daniel Jones: "Thanks Coach. I won't let you down."

Coach Shurmur: "We know that Daniel. And since we don't think it matters in your development, we will expect those same results in 2020 whether you play in 0, 8 or 16 games this season. Got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Um, but I think I would be able to perform to a higher level expectation in 2020 if I got some playing time as a starter in 2019."

Coach Shurmur: "Bullshit. We have the stats Daniel of QBs over the past 20 years. It doesn't matter at all, trust me".

Daniel Jones: "But coach, I don't think that makes any..."

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, who's the coach...me or you? Let me worry about your development. In the meanwhile, make sure all the Ipads are charged up before the next game, got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Yes coach".


when you said "statistically proven", I was assuming that you were going to link some stats, and not a weird/fake conversation that you fabricated and put in quotes.
Googs you are completely twisting FMIC's argument!!!  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 2:23 pm : link
Its not that playing time doesnt help, its specifically year one playing time that doesn't help, or isn't proven to help, or is proven to hurt.

Actually I have no fucking clue what his argument is.

RE: RE: RE: The idea that there isn’t a benefit to playing time is ridiculous  
.McL. : 9/9/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14568387 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14568287 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:



yep - some people want Eli to be the starting QB for as far as the eye can see, and I guess that's fine.

But the "there isn't really any advantage to Jones' future of having him start right now" is either some really shitty gaslighting or an Eli-related mental illness.




Its statistically-proven to not matter. It was discussed here at length. Now its just up to the coaches to tell DJ his development will be the same.

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, here are our expectations of you in 2020".

Daniel Jones: "Thanks Coach. I won't let you down."

Coach Shurmur: "We know that Daniel. And since we don't think it matters in your development, we will expect those same results in 2020 whether you play in 0, 8 or 16 games this season. Got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Um, but I think I would be able to perform to a higher level expectation in 2020 if I got some playing time as a starter in 2019."

Coach Shurmur: "Bullshit. We have the stats Daniel of QBs over the past 20 years. It doesn't matter at all, trust me".

Daniel Jones: "But coach, I don't think that makes any..."

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, who's the coach...me or you? Let me worry about your development. In the meanwhile, make sure all the Ipads are charged up before the next game, got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Yes coach".


Obviously you don't agree with some of the conclusions of that discussion here...

But can anybody point me to it. I must have missed that one.
It may have been a fake conversation  
Jimmy Googs : 9/9/2019 2:26 pm : link
but its based on stats...
RE: The narrative that Eli is done is not a narrative  
chuckydee9 : 9/9/2019 2:29 pm : link
In comment 14568280 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Like people are seeing what they want to see

Here are the FACTS

0-1 this year

5-12 with Shurmur

8-25 over last 2 years

38-58 over last SEVEN Years

0-1 in playoffs

Just one playoff appearance in 7 years and that team was carried by its defense

We have had 4 different HCs (Coughlin, McAdoo, Spagnoulo, Shurmur)

We have had 3 different offensive systems (and 4 different OCs (Gilbride, McAdoo, Sullivan, Shula) . He had a downfield passing offense, a West Coast offense, now an Andy Reid style one

First it was the WRs fault in 2013

Then it was the OLs fault

Then it was the offensive systems fault

Then it was the OLs fault again

Now its the defenses fault and the playcalling

The entire roster has changed 3 times over

The amount of games where this team failed to score 20 points is staggering

We have also had at least 1 of Odell Beckham and/or Saquon Barkley on the team for alot of these games

These are indisputable facts. Nothing above is disputable

At some point you have to look at the QB. Its not a narrative.
Its been 7 YEARS

Too many look at one play or one throw or one series or one game. Any NFL QB should be capable of having that. The real question is can they fo it consistently over a whole season to win enough games to make the playoffs ?

Whst in 7 years of examples tells anyone the answer is yes?



Especially the last 3 years including the playoff season.. at some point you have to try something.. This isn't a narrative.. all numbers and any unbiased analysis of the guy points to him not being any better than average..
RE: RE: RE: RE: The idea that there isn’t a benefit to playing time is ridiculous  
Jimmy Googs : 9/9/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14568402 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14568387 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14568287 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:



yep - some people want Eli to be the starting QB for as far as the eye can see, and I guess that's fine.

But the "there isn't really any advantage to Jones' future of having him start right now" is either some really shitty gaslighting or an Eli-related mental illness.




Its statistically-proven to not matter. It was discussed here at length. Now its just up to the coaches to tell DJ his development will be the same.

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, here are our expectations of you in 2020".

Daniel Jones: "Thanks Coach. I won't let you down."

Coach Shurmur: "We know that Daniel. And since we don't think it matters in your development, we will expect those same results in 2020 whether you play in 0, 8 or 16 games this season. Got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Um, but I think I would be able to perform to a higher level expectation in 2020 if I got some playing time as a starter in 2019."

Coach Shurmur: "Bullshit. We have the stats Daniel of QBs over the past 20 years. It doesn't matter at all, trust me".

Daniel Jones: "But coach, I don't think that makes any..."

Coach Shurmur: "Daniel, who's the coach...me or you? Let me worry about your development. In the meanwhile, make sure all the Ipads are charged up before the next game, got it?"

Daniel Jones: "Yes coach".



Obviously you don't agree with some of the conclusions of that discussion here...

But can anybody point me to it. I must have missed that one.


I'll see if I can dig it up from archives.

If you want it faster, just say something critical of Eli and the guy that subscribes to the thinking will come running pretty quickly...
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