Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

JonC's insight from yesterday

crick n NC : 9/9/2019 8:28 am
JonC is one of the best football brains we have here. I'm reposting his post from this morning. Obviously an insightful read for layman's such as myself.

Quote:
If you're trying to figure out why the defense was so bad
JonC : 8:14 am : link : reply
here's a few things to look for if you're re-watching the game : players had to be blowing assignments, that's how defenses tend to get so scrambled and lost running around in open space. More than a handful of times, DBs got caught staring into the backfield biting on play fakes to EE and got burned on deep passing routes. Dallas knew they had to test the back seven being so young and it paid off for them, predictably.

I saw poor angles to the ball, poor footwork, poor coverage techniques, poor tackling, LBs guessing on which gaps to fill versus the run, defenders standing around rather than rallying to the football. They often over-pursued the ball and were stung by cutbacks. They often failed to set the edge and funnel the ball back inside where pursuit could support.

Hamilton and Bethea were really bad, Tae Davis is a backup. The LB unit just isn't that talented. They have size but I don't see football instincts! Baker played like a rookie in his first NFL game. Speed of the game was too much for him yesterday, he didn't appear mentally prepared for it.

There's a ton of teachable moments for Bettcher to use. A ton. But, in his brief tenure here his team playing dumb is common. He's got to reach and teach these players and fast.

On offense, the Giants shot themselves in the foot just enough to fail to sustain key drives. That combined with the defense being on the field way too much knocked the game out of balance for a team that doesn't much margin for error. Calling rollouts for Eli is just a bad idea, it blew up two drives. Obviously, not using SB in key spots (again) is suspect use of personnel groupings and playcalls. Latimer played a low IQ football game, his ass should be on the bench. Predictably, the lack of a legit #2 WR with speed to vertically put pressure on the defense hurt.
Yes but other than this they were pretty good right?  
Blue21 : 9/9/2019 8:31 am : link
.
I'll actually add what I'm going to say  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 9/9/2019 8:31 am : link
when I make a crick n NC's insight on JonC's insight thread.
You  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2019 8:33 am : link
can also add in Matt's post:

Quote:
Unfortunately
Matt in SGS : 9/8/2019 7:47 pm : link : reply : Delete
this game pretty much went as we had feared. All of Dallas' big stars did their things. Witten got dusted off for his TD. Zeke scored. Giants blow coverages to let walk in TDs. Dak has a perfect rating. Brace yourselves for a national media ballwashing of the Cowboys and we get to see Giants lowlights shown throughout it.

Bottom line, the Giants defense is young, and still rebuilding. This was a tough task, particularly because their down 3 lineman cannot rush the passer. They are all run cloggers. Dak wasn't rushed at all the entire game, with a handful of exceptions on blitzes (including when Golden jumped offsides). I don't want to see Hamilton playing again at corner. I had Jeremy Lincoln flashbacks. Just play Ballentine and let him learn on the job. I'd rather see him mess up than a guy who shouldn't play. Even Baker getting burned is ok for me because let him see what it means to play in the NFL and get better.

Offensively, Shurmur continues to be clueless on how to use Barkley. He did it in Philly last year and he did it again today. I'm not looking for him to go all Dan Reeves and hand him the ball 40 times like he did with Hampton, but you have the best RB in the NFL and the best player on your team, and when it's still somewhat of a game you give it to Eli Penny and then ask Eli to roll out on 4th down.

Yes, the refs didn't help in critical spots, but the only thing that stopped Dallas was the end zone, until they called off the dogs.

Buffalo's offense stinks, so we should get a better view of the defense next week. But if you aren't going to play Barkley in high leverage spots to win a game (like a reliever in baseball), WTF are you doing.

A loss next week at home to Buffalo and this shit is gonna unravel fast.
Having designed rollouts for Eli  
cjac : 9/9/2019 8:34 am : link
is just stupid coaching. Good coaches know their players strengths and weakness and put them in a positing to be successful. Thats on Shurmur
Except  
crick n NC : 9/9/2019 8:35 am : link
I'm blind when it comes to insight
Two thoughts  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/9/2019 8:36 am : link
Baker-missed about two weeks of camp and as a rookie I think we give him a pass. Hopefully big improvements from him next week.

OC Kellen Moore: I think he dialed up some things that the Giants were not prepared for. He is a first year OC and many probably remember him from his Boise days. He is super smart 4.0 GPA and don't be surprised if Garrett does not go deep in playoffs he is the next Dallas coach.
Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
JonC : 9/9/2019 8:37 am : link
and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.
The oompa  
Les in TO : 9/9/2019 8:39 am : link
Loompa pic on the front page was appropriate. But at least they are nice gentlemen who donít cause drama :)
RE: Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
Eman11 : 9/9/2019 8:41 am : link
In comment 14567392 JonC said:
Quote:
and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.


The challenge flag at the end of the first half bothered the hell out of me. He's got to know inside of two minutes he can't challenge ( plus there really wasn't anything there) then add in the fact he had no TO's left anyway so even if it was outside of two minutes he wouldn't have been able to challenge.

Why the refs didn't penalize him I still can't figure out.
They basically did him a solid  
JonC : 9/9/2019 8:43 am : link
because it could've been an unsportsmanlike penalty.
RE: Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
Tesla : 9/9/2019 8:43 am : link
In comment 14567392 JonC said:
Quote:
and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.


He fully looked like he was panicking at multiple shots of him during the game. Not our biggest problem by far but not a good look.

His defiance that he possibly have played a role in this loss during the press conference does not inspire confidence either.

I like his offense and really really want to like him but he's not inspiring a lot of confidence at this point. He looks VERY much like a guy who's worried he may never be a beach coach again in the NFL.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2019 8:43 am : link
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.
Shurmur was rattled by the refs early on in this game  
Chris684 : 9/9/2019 8:46 am : link
and I don't blame him.

The non-call for 12 men followed by the grounding play was bullshit.

Isn't it enough that we are Dallas's designated home opener each year? We have to go there and get worked over by the refs too?

When as a fan, you know that each time the refs huddle about a potential call against he Cowboys, they are in fact not going to call a penalty on them, something is wrong.
Telsa  
JonC : 9/9/2019 8:47 am : link
It could be his ceiling is very good OC. I also have noted he's looked disheveled and stressed during the preseason games. Leads one to wonder if he's feeling more heat than would've expected already.

I hate the aw shucks mentality, I've been turning off his interviews consistently since hired. He always says something a leader shouldn't.
RE: They basically did him a solid  
Eman11 : 9/9/2019 8:48 am : link
In comment 14567408 JonC said:
Quote:
because it could've been an unsportsmanlike penalty.


Yeah that was my thinking as well. I know they addressed it on air but it didn't sound like they knew why there wasn't a penalty either and kind of thought it was just like what you said.
RE: Telsa  
Chris684 : 9/9/2019 8:49 am : link
In comment 14567423 JonC said:
Quote:
It could be his ceiling is very good OC. I also have noted he's looked disheveled and stressed during the preseason games. Leads one to wonder if he's feeling more heat than would've expected already.

I hate the aw shucks mentality, I've been turning off his interviews consistently since hired. He always says something a leader shouldn't.


As someone totally against hiring Shurmur, I've actually grown to like him more than I thought I would. The big problem I have with him so far is the utilization of Saquon, dating back to second Eagles game last year.
Bethea is an old and slow  
jeff57 : 9/9/2019 8:51 am : link
Landon Collins.
Eric  
JonC : 9/9/2019 8:52 am : link
It's ridiculous and lands on the coaching.
RE: ...  
Aaroninma : 9/9/2019 8:53 am : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.



Nothing to add to this, because its exactly how I feel
You can use designed roll outs to Eli but use them strategically at  
JCin332 : 9/9/2019 8:55 am : link
select points in the game...

And maybe not so much against a speed defense like Dallas...
Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
stoneman : 9/9/2019 8:55 am : link
Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.
RE: RE: Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
micky : 9/9/2019 8:56 am : link
In comment 14567403 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14567392 JonC said:


Quote:


and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.



The challenge flag at the end of the first half bothered the hell out of me. He's got to know inside of two minutes he can't challenge ( plus there really wasn't anything there) then add in the fact he had no TO's left anyway so even if it was outside of two minutes he wouldn't have been able to challenge.

Why the refs didn't penalize him I still can't figure out.


That more of shurmur getting the refs over to give them a piece of his mind about the call. Just to get them there.
Rollouts are more  
moaltch : 9/9/2019 9:02 am : link
affective when you have a qb that can tuck it away and run when the lb drops off. Eli cant do that, so it eliminates one of the key proponents of the play call. Dumb
RE: ...  
TyreeHelmet : 9/9/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.


Feel the same way. I can take a loss in a rebuilding year. But the Giants have made getting blown out a routine too often. They were never in that game. Iím still trying to figure out what Shurmur is good at because he hasnít shown it yet....
RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
Eman11 : 9/9/2019 9:07 am : link
In comment 14567455 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 14567403 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14567392 JonC said:


Quote:


and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.



The challenge flag at the end of the first half bothered the hell out of me. He's got to know inside of two minutes he can't challenge ( plus there really wasn't anything there) then add in the fact he had no TO's left anyway so even if it was outside of two minutes he wouldn't have been able to challenge.

Why the refs didn't penalize him I still can't figure out.



That more of shurmur getting the refs over to give them a piece of his mind about the call. Just to get them there.


I hope you're right because if he threw the challenge flag in earnest there, it's troubling to me a pro coach could make a mistake that's wrong on so many levels.
TyreeHelmet  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2019 9:08 am : link
I'm trying to figure out Bettcher. I don't see that guy that Bruce Arians raved about.
.  
Kyle in NY : 9/9/2019 9:10 am : link
There are obvious talent deficiencies on defense. But this coaching staff inspires zero confidence.

The play calling was mind boggling. The defense looked like they hadn't prepared or been coached at all.

Dallas is pretty good. Maybe we'll look back on this and realize they're a true contender. I actually liked a lot of what our offense showed until dumb decisions and some strange calls blew up promising drives. But similar mistakes continue to be repeated.

Buffalo has a good defense but their offense is very plain. If our back seven is getting roasted again this week, it could be the beginning of the end for this staff. The biggest impediment to the rebuild may be a HC in over his head.
RE: TyreeHelmet  
McNally's_Nuts : 9/9/2019 9:12 am : link
In comment 14567485 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm trying to figure out Bettcher. I don't see that guy that Bruce Arians raved about.


Seems a lot easier to play defense with Patrick Peterson and Chandler Jones than then guys theyíre putting out there now.
I think Shurmur might become a very good HC or OC for us.  
CT Charlie : 9/9/2019 9:12 am : link
But he doesn't seem to have the mind or temperament to do both at once.
RE: ...  
PatersonPlank : 9/9/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.


This for me too, +1. It always seems like we are outcoached, always. Many other weak teams hang in there weekly, sure they lose in the end due to talent but at least they are in the game. We just seem to open like a cavern and implode. That has to have a lot to do with coaching. Its like the minute things go a little wrong, which happens to every team every game, we just cave
McNally's_Nuts  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2019 9:14 am : link
Of course, but did that look like a well-prepared defense to you? A smart defense?
Dallas is talented  
JonC : 9/9/2019 9:15 am : link
and they played with uncharacteristic discipline and polish yesterday. Perhaps the leadership has finally figured out how to pull it all together. But I think their defense lacks parts, and we made Dak look better than he is yesterday.
RE: Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
Bernie : 9/9/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14567453 stoneman said:
Quote:
Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.


With all due respect, that defense was loaded with veterans who were adjusting to a new scheme; Spags as the DC with Strahan, Osi, Robbins, Mitchell, Pierce, Madison, McQuarters, Tuck, Kiwanuka, Torbor. Improvement was expected.

This defense is loaded with young players and pathetic talent at LB. Connelly looks like he is going to be a player and the book is still out on Carter. But the rest of the LB's suck. Slow and lacking football IQ. Ogletree has been a disaster, and yet he is signed thru 2022. I'll give the DB's a break (although last night I was down on Baker for not at least being competitive in man coverage), they are young and should learn. If not, we will be looking at another coaching change within the next 18 months.
Another year  
ryanmkeane : 9/9/2019 9:17 am : link
of letting division opponents stomp down our throats. It's only week 1 but pretty pathetic considering Gettleman's plan was to be competitive with Eli.
Jon...  
ryanmkeane : 9/9/2019 9:18 am : link
not saying you, but there seems to always be an excuse for everything lately. Fact is we just are a bad football team and have been for a long while.
Lowest amount of attempts to get Barkely the ball in his career  
Scyber : 9/9/2019 9:20 am : link
Between rushing attempts and targets there were only 17 plays that tried to get Saquon the ball.
Yup  
JonC : 9/9/2019 9:20 am : link
Here's hoping my bottom third of the NFL prediction wasn't too kind.
I've been saying it for a while now  
RollBlue : 9/9/2019 9:22 am : link
that coaching has been the biggest problem for the last 5-6 years. However, I will admit that I think I'm wrong in regards to the OL - I thought they played well. Which brings me back to the other problem - QB. People keep saying if he only had an O-Line and a decent running game - he had both yesterday and managed 10 points until garbage time. Put up decent stats though.

One telling play was when Barkley was running a wheel route and Eli threw it and hit his back side. Eli wanted to dump off yet another short pass, Barkley was thinking torch them for a big play. That's the kind of mismatch we need to take advantage of and our QB is thinking short pass again.

Now maybe Eli made the right read - if so they need to change that thinking. As Aikman stated during the broadcast, Barkley was going to blow by the defender and it could have been a TD. We having been missing on the opportunities for the last 2-3 years.
RE: ...  
UConn4523 : 9/9/2019 9:22 am : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.


When teams lack talent they get sloppy. Look at the other bad teams, they look unprepared too. Iím sure thereís a lot of things they can control and clean up, but we are likely going to keep looking sloppy against much better teams.
RE: ...  
M.S. : 9/9/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.

In other words,

S.H.U.R.M.U.R.

...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2019 9:33 am : link
It sucks to lose. It sucks to lose the opener. It sucks to lose to Dallas. We're all down. Giants can still have a "respectable" 8-8 type season.

But these negative scenarios keep popping into my head:

(1) Eli starts all 16 games in 2019, even with the team all-but-officially out of contention.

(2) Giants fire James Bettcher and a number of position coaches at the end of the season, but keep Pat Shurmur.

(3) Year after that, the Giants fire Pat Shurmur.

(4) Year after that, Dave Gettleman "retires" and hands over the reins to our "cap guru."
RE: Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/9/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14567453 stoneman said:
Quote:
Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.


Stop comparing situations to Giants teams that had much, much better players on it. It's not 86, it's not 2007. It's not a good roster, that's the issue.
The game was a complete meltdown  
Rudy5757 : 9/9/2019 9:36 am : link
On O we scored the TD and then Shurmur forgot about SB for the important part of the game. SB is the reason we scored the TD. Then he runs SB when the game was over.

the D was completely clueless. I can't understand how Bettcher can not generate any pass rush. I understand we dont have that much talent but that D was so vanilla all game. We barely even shoved Dak. The secondary was terrible, the mistakes in coverage were a joke. if it happens once it's an error but when it happens all game thats coaching. How many times can you fall for the play action???

I just dont get the gameplan for this game on both O and D. It makes no sense. If you lose based on talent its one thing, but we lost this game because of poor coaching. The sad thing is that the OL played really well in my eyes and we didn't capitalize on that. We needed to shorten the game with SB chewing up clock and limiting the Dallas O but instead we have Shurmur thinking he is smarter than everyone and calling a terrible game.
Eric  
JonC : 9/9/2019 9:37 am : link
Yup, and Abrams is not really a football guy, as far as I know.
RE: I've been saying it for a while now  
JFIB : 9/9/2019 9:39 am : link
In comment 14567527 RollBlue said:
Quote:
that coaching has been the biggest problem for the last 5-6 years. However, I will admit that I think I'm wrong in regards to the OL - I thought they played well. Which brings me back to the other problem - QB. People keep saying if he only had an O-Line and a decent running game - he had both yesterday and managed 10 points until garbage time. Put up decent stats though.

One telling play was when Barkley was running a wheel route and Eli threw it and hit his back side. Eli wanted to dump off yet another short pass, Barkley was thinking torch them for a big play. That's the kind of mismatch we need to take advantage of and our QB is thinking short pass again.

Now maybe Eli made the right read - if so they need to change that thinking. As Aikman stated during the broadcast, Barkley was going to blow by the defender and it could have been a TD. We having been missing on the opportunities for the last 2-3 years.

I think this is a great observation. I don't recall during that play whether or not Eli was under pressure or just let it go too quickly, but if he holds it for another tic and leads SB a little, it could have been a big play. We didn't use Barkley in the passing game at all yesterday aside from screens or dump offs and he is a talented receiver for an RB.
RE: ...  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 9:39 am : link
In comment 14567564 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It sucks to lose. It sucks to lose the opener. It sucks to lose to Dallas. We're all down. Giants can still have a "respectable" 8-8 type season.

But these negative scenarios keep popping into my head:

(1) Eli starts all 16 games in 2019, even with the team all-but-officially out of contention.

(2) Giants fire James Bettcher and a number of position coaches at the end of the season, but keep Pat Shurmur.

(3) Year after that, the Giants fire Pat Shurmur.

(4) Year after that, Dave Gettleman "retires" and hands over the reins to our "cap guru."


This is exactly what I'm afraid of.

The thing to remember here is it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's possible that they're both poorly coached and short on talent. That very much looks to be the case at this point. A defense schematically flawed because it's short on talent at ER/LB/S, has very raw DBs, and looks fundamentally challenged when it comes to tackles, coverages, etc.

That same paragraph applies to the offensive side of the ball, where there have been a lot more resources (both draft and FA) applied. Talent shortages at certain positions. Underperformance where there is supposedly talent. Scheme shortcomings that highlight weaknesses instead of trying to hide them. Sloppy fundamentals.

I fear that they believe they're in year 2 of some multi year rebuild and these are to be expected. I didn't expect a winning season, but this is looking like a huge clusterfuck (albeit very early to definitively call it that)
RE: Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/9/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14567453 stoneman said:
Quote:
Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.


Great point except the Giants were a playoff team the previous two seasons. Otherwise the same situation.
What's being left out  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/9/2019 9:43 am : link
Is Kellen Moore changes to the Dallas passing game.. they caught the Giants off guard too. I'm sure they didnt have film or prepare for it.. that being said Dallas our classes us at every position except RB. Its gonna take time to restock this team Reese really did a number
RE: RE: Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 9:44 am : link
In comment 14567604 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14567453 stoneman said:


Quote:


Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.



Great point except the Giants were a playoff team the previous two seasons. Otherwise the same situation.


And that was the first year for Spagnuolo. This isn't the first year in this defense for quite a few of those guys.
I am not sure why the dump on Latimer  
Bob in Newburgh : 9/9/2019 9:46 am : link
His block was substantially responsible for the SB early run.

His receiving stats were fine for a receiver who is 3rd option behind EE and SS. He is a receiver who has the size, vertical, long speed and snatch hands to be a long threat any time he is in single coverage. His game needs time to get downfield (and QB to read single coverage) and a QB who throws accurately enough to give him something better than a 50/50 ball.

RE: Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
gmenatlarge : 9/9/2019 9:48 am : link
In comment 14567453 stoneman said:
Quote:
Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.


That team had pass rushers, this team appears to have zero pass rush...
If anybody has game pass  
NikkiMac : 9/9/2019 9:54 am : link
You can go back now to Macadoo and Coughlin years and Shurmurís 2 years here and you will see what I have been watching 9 times out of ten the rollout right with Eli just does not work. I donít think him and the TE or RB sell it well idk what the problem is because Iím not a big X and O guy all I know is it never works itís a useless play for the Giants not for other teams though
RE: I am not sure why the dump on Latimer  
JonC : 9/9/2019 9:56 am : link
In comment 14567618 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
His block was substantially responsible for the SB early run.

His receiving stats were fine for a receiver who is 3rd option behind EE and SS. He is a receiver who has the size, vertical, long speed and snatch hands to be a long threat any time he is in single coverage. His game needs time to get downfield (and QB to read single coverage) and a QB who throws accurately enough to give him something better than a 50/50 ball.


I'm pretty sure he ran the wrong route a couple times, and broke off other routes rather than finish them. Basic stuff.
RE: ...  
HomerJones45 : 9/9/2019 9:58 am : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.
When you have a lot of weaknesses the opposing coordinators don't have to look or work very hard.
I've tried to be cautiously optimistic  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/9/2019 10:00 am : link
about the coaching staff, but that was a really bad showing, they looked overmatched, unprepared and rattled.

It's all been said, but..

The defense was clueless.

The playcalling was awful.

This isn't a regime that's going to get us anywhere.

Only one game, but this doesn't look like a team anywhere close to being competitive.
That's a reasonable explanation which presents us with basic problems  
Bob in Newburgh : 9/9/2019 10:01 am : link
How do you know at all?

What is the threshold of being significant?

Giants braintrust have definitely not treated CL as though he is a screwup.
RE: RE: Does everybody need to be reminded of 2007 again  
AJ23 : 9/9/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14567506 Bernie said:
Quote:
In comment 14567453 stoneman said:


Quote:


Game 1, Dallas, 45 points. First 2 games they gave up 80 points.

Things can change quickly in the NFL, sometimes not, but most of the time. And don't say they had a better team, bla, bla, bla. They gave up 80 points the 1st 2 games.



With all due respect, that defense was loaded with veterans who were adjusting to a new scheme; Spags as the DC with Strahan, Osi, Robbins, Mitchell, Pierce, Madison, McQuarters, Tuck, Kiwanuka, Torbor. Improvement was expected.

This defense is loaded with young players and pathetic talent at LB. Connelly looks like he is going to be a player and the book is still out on Carter. But the rest of the LB's suck. Slow and lacking football IQ. Ogletree has been a disaster, and yet he is signed thru 2022. I'll give the DB's a break (although last night I was down on Baker for not at least being competitive in man coverage), they are young and should learn. If not, we will be looking at another coaching change within the next 18 months.


To be clear, Ogletree is signed through 2021 - not 2022. This almost gave me a heart attack.

As for everything else, agree with Jon's analysis and can't say I disagree with Eric's worries. But I'd like to give this team a few more games before I send them out to pasture.

The Bills, Bucs and Redskins offer a real opportunity for our defense to figure things out. Those our offenses you can get away with a few learn-as-you-go mistakes against. I'm hopeful Baker and Ballentine get the opportunity get as many reps as possible in these games. The defense as a whole could benefit mightily if one or both of them settle in and become effective at CB2 and CB3. Ballentine needs to play more than 9 snaps on defense... he just does. Hamilton played 36 snaps and that was about 34 too many. That guys sucks.

Similarly, I'm excited to see if Ximines and Dexter Lawrence can take some steps in the right direction. Hard to tell what we have from our young pass rush when they're going against the league's top o-line in their first game.
RE: I am not sure why the dump on Latimer  
HomerJones45 : 9/9/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14567618 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
His block was substantially responsible for the SB early run.

His receiving stats were fine for a receiver who is 3rd option behind EE and SS. He is a receiver who has the size, vertical, long speed and snatch hands to be a long threat any time he is in single coverage. His game needs time to get downfield (and QB to read single coverage) and a QB who throws accurately enough to give him something better than a 50/50 ball.
He stinks. There is a reason Denver cut him loose and he has done virtually nothing in his previous 5 years in the League. He gets no separation and can be shut down man on man. Every ball to this stiff is a 50/50 proposition because he can't separate. Yeah, he's big and that's about it.

There isn't one wideout on this team that merits a double team or can win a one on one battle. Worst group in football.
To me, the main problem is that the Cowboys are better than the Giants  
Heisenberg : 9/9/2019 10:08 am : link
at basically every position on the field but RB and Kicker. The talent differential was stark. Felt like a week one college matchup between an SEC team and an FCS team.
RE: ...  
micky : 9/9/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14567564 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It sucks to lose. It sucks to lose the opener. It sucks to lose to Dallas. We're all down. Giants can still have a "respectable" 8-8 type season.

But these negative scenarios keep popping into my head:

(1) Eli starts all 16 games in 2019, even with the team all-but-officially out of contention.

(2) Giants fire James Bettcher and a number of position coaches at the end of the season, but keep Pat Shurmur.

(3) Year after that, the Giants fire Pat Shurmur.

(4) Year after that, Dave Gettleman "retires" and hands over the reins to our "cap guru."


That would be epitome of disorganized org.
Bob  
JonC : 9/9/2019 10:09 am : link
Reasonable question. I can only go by what I see, and wouldn't expect the coaches to say much publicly about his performance. There was plenty to go around the room. He hasn't exactly done much with the Giants, it would appear he's currently the least bad option.
This is two coaches now that clearly don't think Eli is a guy who  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/9/2019 10:12 am : link
can win in the modern NFL. Unless you are an elite QB you need to be mobile. The bootleg is a huge huge part of what he wants to do offensively.
Dallas had a plan of attack  
Dankbeerman : 9/9/2019 10:17 am : link
And they executed it flawlesly. We never made them rethink or waiver at all. I really felt like Dak never even had to progress through his reads cause his 1st read was always open.

Defensively we flat out stunk we where out of position or run past all day. we have to either be the team with guys flying around making plays or at least the boring know your spot and assigment defense.

Ogletree has no purpose on this D. he isnt then run plugger we need or the coverage guy we want him to be.And our edge guys were nowhere near the backfeild.

with the pieces on the line and the young guys in the secondary we need a big investment a LB.
RE: RE: Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
montanagiant : 9/9/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14567403 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14567392 JonC said:


Quote:


and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.



The challenge flag at the end of the first half bothered the hell out of me. He's got to know inside of two minutes he can't challenge ( plus there really wasn't anything there) then add in the fact he had no TO's left anyway so even if it was outside of two minutes he wouldn't have been able to challenge.

Why the refs didn't penalize him I still can't figure out.

Yes there was, the defender had his fingers inside the helmet of Latimer and yanked his head back prior to the ball getting there
The challenge flag at the end bothered the hell outta me too...  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/9/2019 10:22 am : link
I said it on another thread, if you are going to be a milquetoast coach you better be emotionally even. Guy lost it yesterday in a embarissingly Midwest way.
As awful as Hamilton was...  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/9/2019 10:28 am : link
...I don't have a big problem with using him as the sacrificial lamb in a game they were very unlikely to win, and where the rookies might have been just as bad.

Jenkins played every snap, and Haley was on the field two-thirds of the time, which is a average-to-above-average for the nickel corner against a good running offense like Dallas. So those two guys were already maxed out.

Baker was burned plenty in part-time work, and his snaps probably came on the defensive calls the staff thought gave him the best chance of success. I'm not sure exposing him to further damage was in the team's long-term interest. Ballantine's first-game jitters were visible on kickoff returns: one embarrasing whiff, plus one he tried to bring out despite catching it flat-footed, over his head. I know the kids need to take their lumps, but humiliation on national TV can do more damage than good.

As for Latimer, he might be headed for the Ramses Barden role when Tate returns: a healthy scratch until somebody gets injured and they need an outside receiver. The circus catches on 50-50 balls are nice, but for a guy with obvious physical tools, he just doesn't seem to get separation. Eli is still capable of better throws than the toss-ups Latimer usually receives - if he gets open.
You want young, inexperienced Corners to hold up?  
Jimmy Googs : 9/9/2019 10:30 am : link
Then you better have some decent over the top Safety play and underneath Linebacker play.

We have neither...
RE: You want young, inexperienced Corners to hold up?  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/9/2019 10:41 am : link
Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Then you better have some decent over the top Safety play, a pass rush, and underneath Linebacker play.
Fixed it for you. But yes, agree 100%. Baker could be a Corey Webster-type corner, but he's not likely to become a guy you can stick on an island and expect him to cover forever, even when he acclimates to NFL speed.
RE: You can use designed roll outs to Eli but use them strategically at  
jvm52106 : 9/9/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14567452 JCin332 said:
Quote:
select points in the game...

And maybe not so much against a speed defense like Dallas...


NO, NO, NO! Maybe in the past you could but Eli is gunshy to make the throw. Go back to Atlanta MOnday night last year. He has guys open early and just doesn't trust his eyes or his arm. Then he does that late drift backwards before throwing or getting hit and throwing into the ground. It is embarrassing to watch.
RE: RE: You want young, inexperienced Corners to hold up?  
Jimmy Googs : 9/9/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14567794 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:


Then you better have some decent over the top Safety play, a pass rush, and underneath Linebacker play.

Fixed it for you. But yes, agree 100%. Baker could be a Corey Webster-type corner, but he's not likely to become a guy you can stick on an island and expect him to cover forever, even when he acclimates to NFL speed.


I watched enough of Baker at UGA to see his talents which are plenty good enough to be a solid NFL corner. UGA didnt have a good pass rush last season at all and he held up fine.

Rookie corners playing game 1 against an Offense that has ZERO respect for Giant defense. Dak loves playing against us. Baker got beat bad...welcome to the NFL rookie...
RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is repeating mistakes  
Eman11 : 9/9/2019 10:58 am : link
In comment 14567721 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14567403 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14567392 JonC said:


Quote:


and losing his cool on some calls that were suspect doesn't figure to help him. The pick up of the flag on tackling the receiver on one Eli rollout was a bad call, but you've got to move past it quickly.



The challenge flag at the end of the first half bothered the hell out of me. He's got to know inside of two minutes he can't challenge ( plus there really wasn't anything there) then add in the fact he had no TO's left anyway so even if it was outside of two minutes he wouldn't have been able to challenge.

Why the refs didn't penalize him I still can't figure out.


Yes there was, the defender had his fingers inside the helmet of Latimer and yanked his head back prior to the ball getting there


Meh, I watched it a few times and it looked to me the one defender had already stepped in front of Latimer and had knocked the ball down by then.

It was close in timing though but not something blatant that would've been overturned by a replay challenge IMO. If the other defender wasn't there to knock the ball away maybe but I didn't think as it was Latimer had a shot at it even with the contact to his helmet.
RE: RE: RE: You want young, inexperienced Corners to hold up?  
Eman11 : 9/9/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14567830 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14567794 Big Blue Blogger said:


Quote:


Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:


Then you better have some decent over the top Safety play, a pass rush, and underneath Linebacker play.

Fixed it for you. But yes, agree 100%. Baker could be a Corey Webster-type corner, but he's not likely to become a guy you can stick on an island and expect him to cover forever, even when he acclimates to NFL speed.



I watched enough of Baker at UGA to see his talents which are plenty good enough to be a solid NFL corner. UGA didnt have a good pass rush last season at all and he held up fine.

Rookie corners playing game 1 against an Offense that has ZERO respect for Giant defense. Dak loves playing against us. Baker got beat bad...welcome to the NFL rookie...


I watched a lot of him at UGA too and thought one of his biggest strengths was getting right up in receivers faces at the line, and playing tight man. It looked to me like they had him playing off a lot yesterday, and not in a position he's best at.

I expected him to be targeted and have an adjustment period and with missing camp time, probably a tough go to start but I also expected him to be put in his best position to succeed, and I didn't see enough of that yesterday.
RE: TyreeHelmet  
Johnny5 : 9/9/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14567485 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm trying to figure out Bettcher. I don't see that guy that Bruce Arians raved about.

Yeah I don't understand it. He was really good in Az. We had Jennifer Welter do a speech at one of our corporate events, and she absolutely raved about the guy as the DC. It got me super pumped about him.

But I just don't see it here. I know we don't have a ton of superior talent but this defense looks lost way to often. It's really upsetting.
To sum up and shorten what JonC had to say, there is no talent  
Reese's Pieces : 9/9/2019 11:12 am : link
on defense.

The Giants are going to have a problem on the defensive side, as a season-opening loss to the Cowboys exposed their insufficient talent. No pass rush. An inability for any cornerback other than Janoris Jenkins to cover. No difference-makers or playmakers. The Giants were outclassed by the Cowboys, allowing almost 500 total yards despite Dallas shutting it down early in the fourth quarter. -- Jordan Raanan

And a lot of people here wanted to unload Jenkins.
RE: .  
ColHowPepper : 9/9/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14567488 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
Buffalo has a good defense but their offense is very plain. If our back seven is getting roasted again this week, it could be the beginning of the end for this staff.
Said this in reply to Matt in SGS in post-game thread: Bills rookie RB Singleterry runs hard, is quick in his cuts and darts through holes decisively. If he gets to our LBs, not going to be pretty.
It's a rebuild  
JonC : 9/9/2019 11:15 am : link
some personalities had to go, including defenders who were deemed not part of the future core. I've no problem with any of those decisions. I expected struggles in 2019 while assembling the core talent will take some time.

The coaching, teaching, and gameplanning has to step up quickly if they want to approach a level of respectability this season.
RE: ...  
Bernie : 9/9/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14567564 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It sucks to lose. It sucks to lose the opener. It sucks to lose to Dallas. We're all down. Giants can still have a "respectable" 8-8 type season.

But these negative scenarios keep popping into my head:

(1) Eli starts all 16 games in 2019, even with the team all-but-officially out of contention.

(2) Giants fire James Bettcher and a number of position coaches at the end of the season, but keep Pat Shurmur.

(3) Year after that, the Giants fire Pat Shurmur.

(4) Year after that, Dave Gettleman "retires" and hands over the reins to our "cap guru."


I think Shurmur gets this season and probably next if "progress" is being made and this year is not a complete disaster. I don't think you can continually fire head coaches after only 2 years and expect to get anywhere.
I found JonCís comment about the lack  
Giant John : 9/9/2019 11:50 am : link
Of a legit #2 receiver to be on the mark. I though point out we donít have a #1 receiver either.
RE: I found JonCís comment about the lack  
JonC : 9/9/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14568042 Giant John said:
Quote:
Of a legit #2 receiver to be on the mark. I though point out we donít have a #1 receiver either.


True.
RE: RE: ...  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/9/2019 12:14 pm : link
Quote:


I think Shurmur gets this season and probably next if "progress" is being made and this year is not a complete disaster. I don't think you can continually fire head coaches after only 2 years and expect to get anywhere.


It's more about continually hiring coaches that are in over their head. If you hire the wrong guys things implode quickly.

Shurmer looked completely lost. If that continues you have to make a move year 2 or not.
re: Latimer  
bc4life : 9/9/2019 12:32 pm : link
Thought I saw him half ass a route during the game.

Defense is very young - Many 1st and 2nd year players.

Not much pass rush -
Too early  
uconngiant : 9/9/2019 12:38 pm : link
but the next GM should be outside of the organization and not a retread along with a new coach who has won. Not many Belichick's out there that fail in one place and succeed in another.
RE: ...  
Gettledogman : 9/9/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14567564 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It sucks to lose. It sucks to lose the opener. It sucks to lose to Dallas. We're all down. Giants can still have a "respectable" 8-8 type season.

But these negative scenarios keep popping into my head:

(1) Eli starts all 16 games in 2019, even with the team all-but-officially out of contention.

(2) Giants fire James Bettcher and a number of position coaches at the end of the season, but keep Pat Shurmur.

(3) Year after that, the Giants fire Pat Shurmur.

(4) Year after that, Dave Gettleman "retires" and hands over the reins to our "cap guru."


You guys need to chill.. OK heres what I saw. I saw an OL that just pushed around one of the best Ds in the league. I saw WRs getting open and a QB with time finally. I saw some play calling that was lacking, personally I think that will change as the year goes on.

On D our secondary was atrocious and the lack of pass rush will definitely hurt the rest of the year if no one steps up. But I liked the DL they got a good push and stuffed the run game. Our LB are trash for now but I think we have 2 potential players that will emerge. The secondary needs to step up -they overreacted multiple times and let WR get Wide open.. Wide Open receivers all over the field. I liked some of the play from the rookies but they are still rookies.

Just chill relax -let the man build this team. He took over a team with zero depth.. Did you not see the difference in drafts in 2016 for Dallas v Giants -that tells the story. The coach isn't the problem right now the play calling needs to be better. Not running Saquaon who is the best player in the league and its not close needs to be fed more. Engram looks the part. We have a line so its going to be fits and spurts all season. Dallas will be competing for a championship -they are loaded. Its ok to admit they are better, there front office did a great job adding talent.

The arrow is pointed up for the Gmen, in a few years we will see this team be one of the best in the league -you can see it if you look at the building blocks.

Dan Jones needs to learn how to protect the football before he is given the keys.. but he is a keeper.
RE: ...  
loafin : 9/9/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14567411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I really didn't expect to win.

But what bugs me... and has bugged me for years... is not just that we have inferior talent, but the other teams usually seem more prepared than we do. The other team always seems to know how to exploit our weaknesses and make us look silly in the process.

I expected to lose 24-17 or something like that. Dallas called off the dogs in the 4th quarter. The outcome was far worse than the final score. That shouldn't happen in a division game.

The Giants have lost 8 of their last 9 openers. Ouch.


Eric, How much did the the new offense of Dallas impact things? They did a lot of different things and rotated a lot of receivers. Against the cover two they just told the slot receiver and TE to down the middle of the field.
RE: RE: ...  
Johnny5 : 9/9/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14568200 Gettledogman said:
Quote:
In comment 14567564 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


It sucks to lose. It sucks to lose the opener. It sucks to lose to Dallas. We're all down. Giants can still have a "respectable" 8-8 type season.

But these negative scenarios keep popping into my head:

(1) Eli starts all 16 games in 2019, even with the team all-but-officially out of contention.

(2) Giants fire James Bettcher and a number of position coaches at the end of the season, but keep Pat Shurmur.

(3) Year after that, the Giants fire Pat Shurmur.

(4) Year after that, Dave Gettleman "retires" and hands over the reins to our "cap guru."



You guys need to chill.. OK heres what I saw. I saw an OL that just pushed around one of the best Ds in the league. I saw WRs getting open and a QB with time finally. I saw some play calling that was lacking, personally I think that will change as the year goes on.

On D our secondary was atrocious and the lack of pass rush will definitely hurt the rest of the year if no one steps up. But I liked the DL they got a good push and stuffed the run game. Our LB are trash for now but I think we have 2 potential players that will emerge. The secondary needs to step up -they overreacted multiple times and let WR get Wide open.. Wide Open receivers all over the field. I liked some of the play from the rookies but they are still rookies.

Just chill relax -let the man build this team. He took over a team with zero depth.. Did you not see the difference in drafts in 2016 for Dallas v Giants -that tells the story. The coach isn't the problem right now the play calling needs to be better. Not running Saquaon who is the best player in the league and its not close needs to be fed more. Engram looks the part. We have a line so its going to be fits and spurts all season. Dallas will be competing for a championship -they are loaded. Its ok to admit they are better, there front office did a great job adding talent.

The arrow is pointed up for the Gmen, in a few years we will see this team be one of the best in the league -you can see it if you look at the building blocks.

Dan Jones needs to learn how to protect the football before he is given the keys.. but he is a keeper.

Great post, thanks for that actually. I am in such a foul negative mood after yesterday that I am not seeing the forest for the trees.
No pass rush.  
since1925 : 9/9/2019 3:10 pm : link
That's all. No pass rush dooms the secondary even if you have all pro players back there. Dak just stood there and waited until someone came free. Easy.

DG created a defensive line of three fat guys and one weak/fast guy. Not one real defensive end on the team. DG needs to find the best third rate defensive end that has been cut. That would actually improve the team.

If they do not find a pass rusher they are looking at 1-15. Even if they put in wonderboy.
RE: RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/9/2019 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14568200 Gettledogman said:
Quote:

You guys need to chill.. OK heres what I saw. I saw an OL that just pushed around one of the best Ds in the league. I saw WRs getting open and a QB with time finally.


If all that is what you 'saw', how did they manage 10 points and go 2 for 11 on third down?

Nobody gets to say the offensive line "pushed around a defense" with those numbers. You gotta be kidding.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Gettledogman : 9/10/2019 8:19 am : link
In comment 14568618 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14568200 Gettledogman said:


Quote:



You guys need to chill.. OK heres what I saw. I saw an OL that just pushed around one of the best Ds in the league. I saw WRs getting open and a QB with time finally.



If all that is what you 'saw', how did they manage 10 points and go 2 for 11 on third down?

Nobody gets to say the offensive line "pushed around a defense" with those numbers. You gotta be kidding.


Watch the Ol again they did very well.. D never gave the ball back and refs blew quite a few drive killing calls and Coach needs to call a better game. But I was very happy with the production of the line especially after watching the trash we saw the last 6 yrs. Halapio rag dolled a stout D line.
Back to the Corner