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Game 1 of Season 2 of a 3 to 5 year rebuild

GiantNatty : 9/9/2019 8:44 am
against a very good roster right smack in the middle of its own window in their home no less. It's really not all that unexpected. Keep sight of the bigger picture.

You have to think the front office knew this would be a transition season - but hope is just around the corner. The QB of the future is on the roster and I for one hope to heaven that he gets in sooner rather than later. Add to that a very favorable salary cap situation next year and things will start to get better.

They'll also likely have another good position in the draft, which means two things: 1) if Gettleman can have another decent draft, we'll be in business; and 2) in a year where other teams may be desperate to move up to get their guy, we may be able to get some additional picks to move back.

The best graphic of the game was the one that showed our 2016 draft against theirs. What we're seeing now is the fruits of dreadful drafting for years. It is catching up to us. But, given that we seem to have had a couple good drafts these last two year, we'll see those fruits in another year or two.

It's likely going to be another long season so brace yourself, but this organization is turning the corner...
It was disappointing but not surprising.  
Britt in VA : 9/9/2019 8:46 am : link
I wasn't even mad when I turned it off.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/9/2019 8:47 am : link
3 to 5 year rebuild?? Those don't exist anymore. If you're rebuilding, 3 years is hopefully the max.
3 to 5 years??  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 8:48 am : link
Dafuq? There is no such thing in the modern NFL.
I expected to see them struggle this season  
JonC : 9/9/2019 8:49 am : link
The defense is too young and lacks too many parts, and the offense is still unfinished.

But, we saw a lot of the same tendencies from last season, including Shurmur. FIX IT. TEACH.
RE: It was disappointing but not surprising.  
Danny Kanell : 9/9/2019 8:50 am : link
In comment 14567418 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I wasn't even mad when I turned it off.


+1
3-5  
lax counsel : 9/9/2019 8:51 am : link
Year rebuilds dont exist in the nfl anymore. You are either a competent franchise or youíre not.
It does here  
Essex : 9/9/2019 8:51 am : link
Let say the Giants go 2-14 are they going to fire Shurmur before he gets a crack at coaching Jones thorough a campaign in which Jones started. There is your year 3. We show a little improvement, there is your year 4. This is not going to end before year 4 is over for better or worse
GiantNatty...  
M.S. : 9/9/2019 8:52 am : link

...we may not have the right Head Coach in place.

The Giants are in full re-build mode.

And Shurmur is at the crossroads of his Head Coaching career.

I believe he is on thinner ice than many BBIers realize.
RE: It does here  
M.S. : 9/9/2019 8:53 am : link
In comment 14567440 Essex said:
Quote:
Let say the Giants go 2-14 are they going to fire Shurmur before he gets a crack at coaching Jones thorough a campaign in which Jones started. There is your year 3. We show a little improvement, there is your year 4. This is not going to end before year 4 is over for better or worse

If Shurmur goes 2-14 with this schedule, he damned well better be fired.
RE: It does here  
chuckydee9 : 9/9/2019 8:56 am : link
In comment 14567440 Essex said:
Quote:
Let say the Giants go 2-14 are they going to fire Shurmur before he gets a crack at coaching Jones thorough a campaign in which Jones started. There is your year 3. We show a little improvement, there is your year 4. This is not going to end before year 4 is over for better or worse


if we are 2-4 or 2-6, jones better start.. WTF are we doing if in a 2-14 season jones doesn't get many starts?
A 5 year rebuild?!?!  
Sean : 9/9/2019 9:03 am : link
No. Teams go from worst to first all the time.
Turning the corner?  
Les in TO : 9/9/2019 9:06 am : link
If anything they are going backwards.
RE: A 5 year rebuild?!?!  
FStubbs : 9/9/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14567469 Sean said:
Quote:
No. Teams go from worst to first all the time.


I took a look at those worst to first seasons. They tended to fall into two categories:

1) A team that was consistently good, but had an injury filled/bad luck/chaotic year and simply bounced back the following year.
2) A team that was consistently bad that had everything fall their way, but returned to normal (or at least mediocrity) the following year.

Bottom line? For sustained success, you still have a 3-5 year rebuild.
RE: RE: A 5 year rebuild?!?!  
FStubbs : 9/9/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14567497 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14567469 Sean said:


Quote:


No. Teams go from worst to first all the time.



I took a look at those worst to first seasons. They tended to fall into two categories:

1) A team that was consistently good, but had an injury filled/bad luck/chaotic year and simply bounced back the following year.
2) A team that was consistently bad that had everything fall their way, but returned to normal (or at least mediocrity) the following year.

Bottom line? For sustained success, you still have a 3-5 year rebuild.


Actually - there was a third category which was rarer - a team that genuinely went from worst to first and stayed competitive. And those teams (example, the Harbaugh 49ers) had years of losing to stockpile good players. So basically, a 3-5 year rebuild!
The hope would be that the CBs and some of the young LBs  
D-Rod : 9/9/2019 9:17 am : link
either continue or begin to show growth in their games soon. Carter, Connelly, Ximines, Baker, Haley, Love and Ballentine.

Also, hopefully Lawrence and Hill are able to apply some pressure. Hi flashed that last year and Lawrence has the potential. They won't be elite rushers but if they can apply consistent pressure that will go a long way.
The Eagles rebuilt in two years  
mikeinbloomfield : 9/9/2019 9:22 am : link
but they have smart management.
We had too many bad drafts and misses.  
joe48 : 9/9/2019 9:23 am : link
They got rid of bad free agent contracts and attitudes. We had a severely depleted roster with little. Itís not like we can just tweak a few positions.
The good news is we may have our QB of the future on the roster.

Some of you folks have not lived through the 70ís to mid 80ís. Hang in there it will get. They say one game at a time works.
If Gettleman said this was a 5-year rebuild....  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/9/2019 9:23 am : link
...and Mara still hired him then we truly are fucked.
We went from  
eugibs : 9/9/2019 9:28 am : link
"we're gonna shock the world" and all talk that the Giants stink is a media conspiracy to "this is all totally expected and we need to be patient for a few more years" at light speed. There is so much that could be said about this "rebuild" that apparently means getting our asses handed to us by our biggest rival is something for which fans cannot ask for accountability, but I will just say one thing. If this is a full rebuild and we have no reasonable expectation of competing this year, then Daniel Jones should be playing.
Someone on here  
NikkiMac : 9/9/2019 9:32 am : link
Said that the heart of a 3/4 defense is its linebackers which we know is true having had some of the best in our 3/4 days but right now looks to me Connelly is the best prospect after that 0 Iím not sold on Ogletree so to me number one pick next year has got to be a linebacker not a wr unless a superior athlete is there at OT or ER
we can argue all day about how long a rebuild takes  
GiantNatty : 9/9/2019 9:33 am : link
but my point is that this roster isn't there yet so don't get all bent out of shape when we lose to a better team. It takes years for drafts to cycle through, whether good or bad. We had several years of dreadful drafting and it's showing up on the field years later.

That said, I think we've had a couple decent drafts in a row so in a couple years we'll see those drafts cycle through and start to pay dividends as well. And the timing may be ideal as by then, the Eagles and Cowboys windows will be closing.
RE: It was disappointing but not surprising.  
Tesla : 9/9/2019 9:33 am : link
In comment 14567418 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I wasn't even mad when I turned it off.


Not surprising to you? You predicted we'd go 10-6 this year. Did we look like a 10-6 win team yesterday?
I'm never suppossed to be right.  
x meadowlander : 9/9/2019 9:36 am : link
I was really hoping there were some surprises in that front 7 and on D.

Unwatchable.

Shut it off at the half.

3-5 year rebuild? I'll watch again in 3-5 years then. I'm too old for this shit.
It's only one game.  
Britt in VA : 9/9/2019 9:36 am : link
A team can grow and evolve through the course of the season.

I think the offense will continue to improve and be able to keep us in games. The defense was expected to be bad but I'm not sure I know/knew how bad they are based on yesterday. They can improve. They are young. We'll see.

Losing to a better team is one thing  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 9:39 am : link
Getting curbstomped is something else entirely. That defensive display was nauseating. They showed absolutely nothing.
Iíve been hearing about this 3-year rebuild  
bceagle05 : 9/9/2019 9:45 am : link
for close to a decade now. Iím willing to let this season breathe a bit, but at first glance we need help everywhere on defense, at least two more offensive lineman, and a #1 receiver. Oh, and our head coach is a loser. These are perilous times.
We need another draft and elis cap hit gone  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/9/2019 9:55 am : link
Thus team is setting up for 2020/2021
RE: Someone on here  
FStubbs : 9/9/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14567560 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Said that the heart of a 3/4 defense is its linebackers which we know is true having had some of the best in our 3/4 days but right now looks to me Connelly is the best prospect after that 0 Iím not sold on Ogletree so to me number one pick next year has got to be a linebacker not a wr unless a superior athlete is there at OT or ER


And remember, LT was the #2 overall pick and Banks was the #3 overall pick.
If itís a rebuild then why do we have a 38 year old QB?  
Justlurking : 9/9/2019 10:02 am : link
Canít have it both ways. What theyíre doing is a complete waste.
RE: Iíve been hearing about this 3-year rebuild  
Justlurking : 9/9/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14567615 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
for close to a decade now. Iím willing to let this season breathe a bit, but at first glance we need help everywhere on defense, at least two more offensive lineman, and a #1 receiver. Oh, and our head coach is a loser. These are perilous times.


The GM is a dinosaur as well
RE: Iíve been hearing about this 3-year rebuild  
eugibs : 9/9/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14567615 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
for close to a decade now. Iím willing to let this season breathe a bit, but at first glance we need help everywhere on defense, at least two more offensive lineman, and a #1 receiver. Oh, and our head coach is a loser. These are perilous times.


And this assumes Daniel Jones can play. What if he can't?
RE: RE: Iíve been hearing about this 3-year rebuild  
lax counsel : 9/9/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14567744 eugibs said:
Quote:
In comment 14567615 bceagle05 said:


Quote:


for close to a decade now. Iím willing to let this season breathe a bit, but at first glance we need help everywhere on defense, at least two more offensive lineman, and a #1 receiver. Oh, and our head coach is a loser. These are perilous times.



And this assumes Daniel Jones can play. What if he can't?


If he can't, unless the Giants can reverse course and make a quick and decisive decision (something they aren't know to do) to draft another first round qb - they'll likely be bad another 5-8 years (on top of the past 7 years).

Fully agree with the OP  
loafin : 9/9/2019 10:51 am : link
I posted this on the overreaction thread

We are in year 2 of a rebuild.
The Giants felt that Daniel Jones should be the choice at 6.
They drafted defense most of the rest of the way.
They have acquired good fixes to the offensive line.
They are up against the cap ceiling due to Manning and clearing out players that aren't good for the "room"
The players you wanted kept (Collins, Snacks, Apple, OBJ, Goodson) didn't WIN any games either!

2020 is the key year. Cap restraints will be gone, a fresh new draft (most likely top 10)

If you didn't think that before this season began you had rose colored glasses on.
at gettleman's first presser  
japanhead : 9/9/2019 12:34 pm : link
after being hired, he said: "i'm not gonna sit here and tell you i'm gonna fix it in two years. because then john will run me out of the building."

so it's clear that at the very least the GM knew they were in deep shit and that it would take a while to undo the damage that resse-ross had inflicted on the team over a 7-8 year period.

my immediate concern is shurmur. it seems like he was told it's going to be a while before the team can realistically compete, and so he's not trying very hard with his playcalling, just biding time until he can play jones, or until next year. i realize that's not likely, but the team looks so bad in key spots in the game, the alternative is just to believe he's dense and incapable.

he also gets frustrated and loses his shit too easily, kinda like coughlin in 2004-2006 before he was told to tone it down. embarrassing.
japanhead  
GiantNatty : 9/10/2019 9:00 am : link
thanks for that gettleman quote - it's right on point...

i'm not overly concerned with shurmur. i think he's hampered by one of the more underperforming QBs in the league...
RE: japanhead  
jcn56 : 9/10/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14569859 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
thanks for that gettleman quote - it's right on point...

i'm not overly concerned with shurmur. i think he's hampered by one of the more underperforming QBs in the league...


...that Gettleman decided to retain, at a pretty penny.

Gettleman is in over his head, just like the coach he hired. This isn't a 3-5 year rebuild - either they start looking better this year, or they're in year 2 of however long they decide to waste on this regime.
correct me if i'm wrong but...  
Doug in MA : 9/10/2019 9:09 am : link
...as far as rebuilding in the past i don't think the Giants were all in. This year is the first time they've addressed the salary cap issues...which to me seems like a true "rebuild".
It is with the Giants, one can only hope.  
Jim in Hoboken : 9/10/2019 9:11 am : link
Jones might not play that much this year and next year will be chalked up as a learning year for him.

The Giants like to make small changes, one position at a time, so 5 years might be optimistic.
2020  
Doug in MA : 9/10/2019 9:15 am : link
i see no reason jones can't take this team deep into the playoffs next year. History in the NFL the last 10-15 years proves that. Brady, Roethlisberger, Mahomes, Goff, Wilson etc all successful in the early part of their careers.

If the young kids improve this year, 2 or 3 contributors from next years draft and good use of our salary cap next year we can contend.

Can the coaches get them there? That seems like another discussion.
RE: RE: A 5 year rebuild?!?!  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/10/2019 9:22 am : link
In comment 14567497 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14567469 Sean said:


Quote:


No. Teams go from worst to first all the time.



I took a look at those worst to first seasons. They tended to fall into two categories:

1) A team that was consistently good, but had an injury filled/bad luck/chaotic year and simply bounced back the following year.
2) A team that was consistently bad that had everything fall their way, but returned to normal (or at least mediocrity) the following year.

Bottom line? For sustained success, you still have a 3-5 year rebuild.

If Saquon Barkley is on his 2nd contract and Daniel Jones is on his 5th year option (which is almost as expensive as the franchise tag for a top-10 selected QB) before we're a competitive franchise again, that tells me we fucked up along the way, either with the moves that followed the Barkley pick or with the Barkley pick itself (because it will have been a luxury that we were not ready to take full advantage of).

Those two appear to be foundational building blocks, and the Giants least resistant path to being a contender will happen while they're both on cost-controlled rookie contracts that will provide Gettleman the opportunity (and cap room) to build an exceptional roster around them.

It shouldn't take more than 3 years. That's enough time to turn over 80% of your roster without even dipping your toe into free agency.
If this is a rebuilding year, then there have been serious blunders  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 9/10/2019 10:09 am : link
A rebuilding team would have cut Eli in the offseason. If we're not contending this year, then having him on the team sucks up valuable resources and presents a roadblock when our new quarterback of the future is ready to step in.
RE: If this is a rebuilding year, then there have been serious blunders  
Sean : 9/10/2019 10:36 am : link
In comment 14569987 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
A rebuilding team would have cut Eli in the offseason. If we're not contending this year, then having him on the team sucks up valuable resources and presents a roadblock when our new quarterback of the future is ready to step in.


Exactly. Rebuilding teams donít start 38 year old QBís.
last year was full of half measures  
fkap : 9/10/2019 11:27 am : link
This year, staying with Eli is the only glaring half measure. When his roster bonus was due, we didn't know we'd have DJ, nor did we know DJ was going to look so good in preseason. Cutting Eli then and starting DJ sounds good now, but if we did so, we'd be looking for a vet to replace him. Combine that with some possible/probable direction from above to be loyal, and it is easy to see why Eli is still on the team.

When a roster is so devoid of talent, and what talent you do have is so divisive that they need cutting, it's going to take 2 or 3 years of good drafting and good FA just to get a decent core where you can start envisioning a couple of good moves can get you over the top. So far the FA has been meh.

This is the year we have to see continued growth of last years draft class. We were all giddy and penciling them in as a great class, but it wasn't a successful draft until the players are solid contributors.
It  
rocco8112 : 9/10/2019 12:13 pm : link
should not take five years to build a competitive team.
no such thing as a 5 year rebuild  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/10/2019 12:14 pm : link
it isn't 1974
I wasn't surprised by the loss, but I was surprised by the magnitude.  
Ira : 9/10/2019 12:19 pm : link
And I hoped our young defensive backs would play better. One of Gettleman's good qualities is that he doesn't hold on to players because he drafted or signed them. So, I'd expect that Hamilton will be gone before long and Bethea might not last the season.
Hollow words, poor self assessment and half hearted attempts  
NoGainDayne : 9/10/2019 12:36 pm : link
that's what I see when I look at the Giants. Not sure where all this optimism comes from.

I think back to Gettleman's "you don't quit on talent" quote and it just seems like people want to pick and choose what is fun and glib RE: what he says when this clearly doesn't reflect well on him. People heap praise on literally any small thing he does right including a willingness to cut bait on egregious errors we have the compliment parade coming in to say what a great guy we have in charge literally on threads like Omameh that are the sign of abject failures.

We hear a lot of things with Solder like "you had to make that move" but we did not. It is very possible to have a realistic view of your competition window and plan to play into that window and have an asset deployment strategy that's consistent with that. Here we are spending about 30% of our cap on players no longer on our team and an old QB who hasn't shown he can win in the NFL in a long time, are we really supposed to be at all confident in the strategic abilities of this team when this is what we are looking at?

We bash OBJ then sign Tate, a shortsighted move and oh yeah, a player that gets suspended. What about building a culture? Golden yeah that's a good high upside signing if we can build a winner this year but again, you have to be able to look at yourself and know if you can really build a winner this year for that to be good. Otherwise we are just filling our cap with someone that could just as easily sign a prove it deal with another team and then we sign him next year. You have real conviction on Golden? Great, sign him to a 4 year deal that could be a value down that line when we are actually ready to compete. Same goes for Bethea, that's a signing you make if you have a team that you think can go to the playoffs.

We could have netted more comp picks vs. adding those vets. And that's what we really need to do. Try to grab assets that could be a value. Even looking at something like Landon Collins. This guy was an all-pro. Retaining his rights by franchising him is just a higher upside move than trotting Eli out there again for god knows what reason. I'm not a Collins fan but I am a fan of getting the most out of the assets you have.

It seems like we made all the moves to get to on the high end .500 but why? Let's see what we have in Jones. Let's give other young players a shot to see if they can be part of our core and grow together. This isn't a bad draft to be picking as high as possible in, even if we have our QB and to bring it back to where I started. "You don't quit on talent" well... we did. Talent we paid a lot of money for. And it's nothing but ineptitude on our own end that we have him eating so much of the cap effectively making us non-competitive.

Don't even get me started on Shurmur and our very clear inability to assess who will make a good coach. Good leadership maximizes talent it doesn't throw every excuse in the book out there how we should expect this and pushes the timeline to success out further and further. If it's a 3 year rebuild, good do that. If it's a 5 year good, do that. This teams actions, words, performance and how those mesh together are just messy. It has been. People say you have to pretend like you are going to contend to put fans in the seats. So attempting to fool your own fans into thinking you have a good team, you have to do that? Maybe it's just better to figure out what you are actually capable of doing and communicate that. People act like all this vitriol towards the Giants front office is unfounded but I don't know how it isn't frustrating for everyone to watch a team that can't even figure out if the talent in front of them is capable of being competitive and act accordingly.

We didn't look good against good teams last year. The first good team we played this year made us look completely over-matched. People talk about building pride. You don't build pride beating crap teams like we did last season you just hurt your draft position.


.  
figgy2989 : 9/10/2019 12:40 pm : link
This notion of worst to first  
.McL. : 9/10/2019 2:05 pm : link
Tell just a ridiculously inaccurate story.

Step back and look at the bigger picture. First off, the teams we are talking about don't usually go worst to first. That would mean 32nd one year and SB champs the next. Usually its bad (like bottom 25%) to playoffs (top 25%), then maybe SB contender the year after. THe other thing about teams that do this, is that in general they fall into 2 categories.

1. The team was very good before, had an injury plagued season that kill them, and not they are back to where they were.

2. The team was bad for many years, having good drafts and stockpiling young talent.

I think the 2nd case is the case that folk point to when they really are talking about worst to first. Take the Rams for example. They sucked for year, but they had some good drafts and were on the cusp of turning the corner. When you stockpile young talent 3 things need to happen to turn that corner. You finally get enough talent at enough positions. The talent matures past the rookie speed bump issues. And the team as a whole gains cofidence and learns how to win. When you get the confluence of all those factors, the turning of the corner can happen suddenly. Its like reaching critical mass, then boom you reach the upper echelon of the NFL. But it was never a process that happened over just 1 off season.

Show me a a single team that rebuilt a team from scratch and turned into winner is just 1 season. That's a joke.
it seems most of us in this thread  
GiantNatty : 9/10/2019 2:57 pm : link
agree. we can quibble about the amount of time it takes to rebuild, but it seems pretty clear that in the Giants' case, it's going to take at least three years. It just takes years to clear out old players (and their heavy contracts) and to have good draft classes reach the point of maturity where they are competitive players.

also, i fully agree that Jones needs to play a LOT this season. given that this year is part of the rebuilding process, it makes no sense not to get Jones some experience. we have a competent offensive line which makes the decision all the more clear imho.
RE: This notion of worst to first  
jcn56 : 9/10/2019 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14570455 .McL. said:
Quote:

Show me a a single team that rebuilt a team from scratch and turned into winner is just 1 season. That's a joke.


You won't find that. why? Because most teams don't "rebuild from scratch". Because rebuilding from scratch is idiotic. You keep some players and move on from others, hopefully through careful and accurate assessment of your talent base by both your FO and coaching staff. You acquire new talent that hopefully exceeds the skill level of the staff it was replacing, and they're better aligned to the schemes the coaching staff wants to run.

Pay close attention to that last sentence - do you really feel like that has been happening here? Some people here are ready to fracture an arm patting Gettleman on the back for 'cutting mistakes', whistling past the fact that there were a lot of mistakes in the first place. Wasted cap space, players no better than the chaff they replaced.

So taking the phrase 'worst to first' literally is entertaining, but that's not what people are referring to. They're showing you how teams that have their shit together, like Philly, can go from the train wreck of Chip Kelly to a SB two years later (and not completely collapse in between), versus the Giants who can't seem to walk and chew fucking gum at the same time.
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