against a very good roster right smack in the middle of its own window in their home no less. It's really not all that unexpected. Keep sight of the bigger picture.
You have to think the front office knew this would be a transition season - but hope is just around the corner. The QB of the future is on the roster and I for one hope to heaven that he gets in sooner rather than later. Add to that a very favorable salary cap situation next year and things will start to get better.
They'll also likely have another good position in the draft, which means two things: 1) if Gettleman can have another decent draft, we'll be in business; and 2) in a year where other teams may be desperate to move up to get their guy, we may be able to get some additional picks to move back.
The best graphic of the game was the one that showed our 2016 draft against theirs. What we're seeing now is the fruits of dreadful drafting for years. It is catching up to us. But, given that we seem to have had a couple good drafts these last two year, we'll see those fruits in another year or two.
It's likely going to be another long season so brace yourself, but this organization is turning the corner...
But, we saw a lot of the same tendencies from last season, including Shurmur. FIX IT. TEACH.
+1
...we may not have the right Head Coach in place.
The Giants are in full re-build mode.
And Shurmur is at the crossroads of his Head Coaching career.
I believe he is on thinner ice than many BBIers realize.
If Shurmur goes 2-14 with this schedule, he damned well better be fired.
if we are 2-4 or 2-6, jones better start.. WTF are we doing if in a 2-14 season jones doesn't get many starts?
I took a look at those worst to first seasons. They tended to fall into two categories:
1) A team that was consistently good, but had an injury filled/bad luck/chaotic year and simply bounced back the following year.
2) A team that was consistently bad that had everything fall their way, but returned to normal (or at least mediocrity) the following year.
Bottom line? For sustained success, you still have a 3-5 year rebuild.
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No. Teams go from worst to first all the time.
I took a look at those worst to first seasons. They tended to fall into two categories:
1) A team that was consistently good, but had an injury filled/bad luck/chaotic year and simply bounced back the following year.
2) A team that was consistently bad that had everything fall their way, but returned to normal (or at least mediocrity) the following year.
Bottom line? For sustained success, you still have a 3-5 year rebuild.
Actually - there was a third category which was rarer - a team that genuinely went from worst to first and stayed competitive. And those teams (example, the Harbaugh 49ers) had years of losing to stockpile good players. So basically, a 3-5 year rebuild!
Also, hopefully Lawrence and Hill are able to apply some pressure. Hi flashed that last year and Lawrence has the potential. They won't be elite rushers but if they can apply consistent pressure that will go a long way.
The good news is we may have our QB of the future on the roster.
Some of you folks have not lived through the 70’s to mid 80’s. Hang in there it will get. They say one game at a time works.
That said, I think we've had a couple decent drafts in a row so in a couple years we'll see those drafts cycle through and start to pay dividends as well. And the timing may be ideal as by then, the Eagles and Cowboys windows will be closing.
Not surprising to you? You predicted we'd go 10-6 this year. Did we look like a 10-6 win team yesterday?
Unwatchable.
Shut it off at the half.
3-5 year rebuild? I'll watch again in 3-5 years then. I'm too old for this shit.
I think the offense will continue to improve and be able to keep us in games. The defense was expected to be bad but I'm not sure I know/knew how bad they are based on yesterday. They can improve. They are young. We'll see.
And remember, LT was the #2 overall pick and Banks was the #3 overall pick.
The GM is a dinosaur as well
And this assumes Daniel Jones can play. What if he can't?
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for close to a decade now. I’m willing to let this season breathe a bit, but at first glance we need help everywhere on defense, at least two more offensive lineman, and a #1 receiver. Oh, and our head coach is a loser. These are perilous times.
And this assumes Daniel Jones can play. What if he can't?
If he can't, unless the Giants can reverse course and make a quick and decisive decision (something they aren't know to do) to draft another first round qb - they'll likely be bad another 5-8 years (on top of the past 7 years).
We are in year 2 of a rebuild.
The Giants felt that Daniel Jones should be the choice at 6.
They drafted defense most of the rest of the way.
They have acquired good fixes to the offensive line.
They are up against the cap ceiling due to Manning and clearing out players that aren't good for the "room"
The players you wanted kept (Collins, Snacks, Apple, OBJ, Goodson) didn't WIN any games either!
2020 is the key year. Cap restraints will be gone, a fresh new draft (most likely top 10)
If you didn't think that before this season began you had rose colored glasses on.
so it's clear that at the very least the GM knew they were in deep shit and that it would take a while to undo the damage that resse-ross had inflicted on the team over a 7-8 year period.
my immediate concern is shurmur. it seems like he was told it's going to be a while before the team can realistically compete, and so he's not trying very hard with his playcalling, just biding time until he can play jones, or until next year. i realize that's not likely, but the team looks so bad in key spots in the game, the alternative is just to believe he's dense and incapable.
he also gets frustrated and loses his shit too easily, kinda like coughlin in 2004-2006 before he was told to tone it down. embarrassing.
i'm not overly concerned with shurmur. i think he's hampered by one of the more underperforming QBs in the league...
i'm not overly concerned with shurmur. i think he's hampered by one of the more underperforming QBs in the league...
...that Gettleman decided to retain, at a pretty penny.
Gettleman is in over his head, just like the coach he hired. This isn't a 3-5 year rebuild - either they start looking better this year, or they're in year 2 of however long they decide to waste on this regime.
The Giants like to make small changes, one position at a time, so 5 years might be optimistic.
If the young kids improve this year, 2 or 3 contributors from next years draft and good use of our salary cap next year we can contend.
Can the coaches get them there? That seems like another discussion.
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No. Teams go from worst to first all the time.
I took a look at those worst to first seasons. They tended to fall into two categories:
1) A team that was consistently good, but had an injury filled/bad luck/chaotic year and simply bounced back the following year.
2) A team that was consistently bad that had everything fall their way, but returned to normal (or at least mediocrity) the following year.
Bottom line? For sustained success, you still have a 3-5 year rebuild.
If Saquon Barkley is on his 2nd contract and Daniel Jones is on his 5th year option (which is almost as expensive as the franchise tag for a top-10 selected QB) before we're a competitive franchise again, that tells me we fucked up along the way, either with the moves that followed the Barkley pick or with the Barkley pick itself (because it will have been a luxury that we were not ready to take full advantage of).
Those two appear to be foundational building blocks, and the Giants least resistant path to being a contender will happen while they're both on cost-controlled rookie contracts that will provide Gettleman the opportunity (and cap room) to build an exceptional roster around them.
It shouldn't take more than 3 years. That's enough time to turn over 80% of your roster without even dipping your toe into free agency.
Exactly. Rebuilding teams don’t start 38 year old QB’s.
When a roster is so devoid of talent, and what talent you do have is so divisive that they need cutting, it's going to take 2 or 3 years of good drafting and good FA just to get a decent core where you can start envisioning a couple of good moves can get you over the top. So far the FA has been meh.
This is the year we have to see continued growth of last years draft class. We were all giddy and penciling them in as a great class, but it wasn't a successful draft until the players are solid contributors.
I think back to Gettleman's "you don't quit on talent" quote and it just seems like people want to pick and choose what is fun and glib RE: what he says when this clearly doesn't reflect well on him. People heap praise on literally any small thing he does right including a willingness to cut bait on egregious errors we have the compliment parade coming in to say what a great guy we have in charge literally on threads like Omameh that are the sign of abject failures.
We hear a lot of things with Solder like "you had to make that move" but we did not. It is very possible to have a realistic view of your competition window and plan to play into that window and have an asset deployment strategy that's consistent with that. Here we are spending about 30% of our cap on players no longer on our team and an old QB who hasn't shown he can win in the NFL in a long time, are we really supposed to be at all confident in the strategic abilities of this team when this is what we are looking at?
We bash OBJ then sign Tate, a shortsighted move and oh yeah, a player that gets suspended. What about building a culture? Golden yeah that's a good high upside signing if we can build a winner this year but again, you have to be able to look at yourself and know if you can really build a winner this year for that to be good. Otherwise we are just filling our cap with someone that could just as easily sign a prove it deal with another team and then we sign him next year. You have real conviction on Golden? Great, sign him to a 4 year deal that could be a value down that line when we are actually ready to compete. Same goes for Bethea, that's a signing you make if you have a team that you think can go to the playoffs.
We could have netted more comp picks vs. adding those vets. And that's what we really need to do. Try to grab assets that could be a value. Even looking at something like Landon Collins. This guy was an all-pro. Retaining his rights by franchising him is just a higher upside move than trotting Eli out there again for god knows what reason. I'm not a Collins fan but I am a fan of getting the most out of the assets you have.
It seems like we made all the moves to get to on the high end .500 but why? Let's see what we have in Jones. Let's give other young players a shot to see if they can be part of our core and grow together. This isn't a bad draft to be picking as high as possible in, even if we have our QB and to bring it back to where I started. "You don't quit on talent" well... we did. Talent we paid a lot of money for. And it's nothing but ineptitude on our own end that we have him eating so much of the cap effectively making us non-competitive.
Don't even get me started on Shurmur and our very clear inability to assess who will make a good coach. Good leadership maximizes talent it doesn't throw every excuse in the book out there how we should expect this and pushes the timeline to success out further and further. If it's a 3 year rebuild, good do that. If it's a 5 year good, do that. This teams actions, words, performance and how those mesh together are just messy. It has been. People say you have to pretend like you are going to contend to put fans in the seats. So attempting to fool your own fans into thinking you have a good team, you have to do that? Maybe it's just better to figure out what you are actually capable of doing and communicate that. People act like all this vitriol towards the Giants front office is unfounded but I don't know how it isn't frustrating for everyone to watch a team that can't even figure out if the talent in front of them is capable of being competitive and act accordingly.
We didn't look good against good teams last year. The first good team we played this year made us look completely over-matched. People talk about building pride. You don't build pride beating crap teams like we did last season you just hurt your draft position.
Step back and look at the bigger picture. First off, the teams we are talking about don't usually go worst to first. That would mean 32nd one year and SB champs the next. Usually its bad (like bottom 25%) to playoffs (top 25%), then maybe SB contender the year after. THe other thing about teams that do this, is that in general they fall into 2 categories.
1. The team was very good before, had an injury plagued season that kill them, and not they are back to where they were.
2. The team was bad for many years, having good drafts and stockpiling young talent.
I think the 2nd case is the case that folk point to when they really are talking about worst to first. Take the Rams for example. They sucked for year, but they had some good drafts and were on the cusp of turning the corner. When you stockpile young talent 3 things need to happen to turn that corner. You finally get enough talent at enough positions. The talent matures past the rookie speed bump issues. And the team as a whole gains cofidence and learns how to win. When you get the confluence of all those factors, the turning of the corner can happen suddenly. Its like reaching critical mass, then boom you reach the upper echelon of the NFL. But it was never a process that happened over just 1 off season.
Show me a a single team that rebuilt a team from scratch and turned into winner is just 1 season. That's a joke.
also, i fully agree that Jones needs to play a LOT this season. given that this year is part of the rebuilding process, it makes no sense not to get Jones some experience. we have a competent offensive line which makes the decision all the more clear imho.
Show me a a single team that rebuilt a team from scratch and turned into winner is just 1 season. That's a joke.
You won't find that. why? Because most teams don't "rebuild from scratch". Because rebuilding from scratch is idiotic. You keep some players and move on from others, hopefully through careful and accurate assessment of your talent base by both your FO and coaching staff. You acquire new talent that hopefully exceeds the skill level of the staff it was replacing, and they're better aligned to the schemes the coaching staff wants to run.
Pay close attention to that last sentence - do you really feel like that has been happening here? Some people here are ready to fracture an arm patting Gettleman on the back for 'cutting mistakes', whistling past the fact that there were a lot of mistakes in the first place. Wasted cap space, players no better than the chaff they replaced.
So taking the phrase 'worst to first' literally is entertaining, but that's not what people are referring to. They're showing you how teams that have their shit together, like Philly, can go from the train wreck of Chip Kelly to a SB two years later (and not completely collapse in between), versus the Giants who can't seem to walk and chew fucking gum at the same time.