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emulate the Patriots

AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 10:38 am
if you want to win.

The Pats under BB defy truisms, cliches, old ways, predictable bs. As someone else on here said the Pats are the only org that is managed with greatness. they are far and away the most intelligent organization. Every other team is managed like robots.

1. They reached for AB when others thought he was toxic and impossible to make work.. just like Moss..

2. They don't wait to rebuild. They fast track their players. This idea that the Giants (for instance) have to slowly build is lunacy. This is a quick rebuild win-now league.

3. They care about locker room leadership but they aren't slaves to it.

4. The Pats aren't slaves to any sports truism.. if they like a guy they try to make it work. Their team identity is not so fragile.

5. They fast tracked Stidham, gave him a whole game, whereas we treated our new guy with kid gloves.

6. I understand emulating the Pats is hard because BB is a genius and their aren't a lot of them floating around. But the first step in being as successful as the Pats is to look at them, point to them, and admit they are onto something. Let's do that, and put pressure on this team to aspire to be the next Pats. Don't you want to win like them? I do!!
Bill B has the total confidence of everyone in the org whereas  
mattlawson : 9/9/2019 10:41 am : link
Our guys are still playing for jobs and seeking buy in. I think there's a big difference there.
People have been trying to emulate  
pjcas18 : 9/9/2019 10:43 am : link
the Patriots for a decade plus.

without Belichick and probably Brady it's not a thing you can emulate.
Emulating the Pats is easy  
BigBlue2112 : 9/9/2019 10:44 am : link
-get the greatest coach of all time.

-get arguably the greatest QB of all time.

-Have your owner pay your QB's salary through TB12 and other avenues to free cap space.

-have the best OL coach in the league that turns UDFA into stars.
They are the patriots and they do it their way because ...  
Spider56 : 9/9/2019 10:44 am : link
They have the greatest coach of all time and the owner trusts him to do it his way. You cant emulate them; the giants need to find their own way.

But ... your point about trusting youth is fully valid ... players on our practice squad may be better than some on the active roster.
RE: They are the patriots and they do it their way because ...  
BillT : 9/9/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14567805 Spider56 said:
Quote:
They have the greatest coach of all time and the owner trusts him to do it his way. You cant emulate them; the giants need to find their own way.

But ... your point about trusting youth is fully valid ... players on our practice squad may be better than some on the active roster.

How are we not trusting youth. We're one of the very youngest teams in the league.
the most  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 10:46 am : link
amazing thing about BB and the Pats is that they construct a team with the flexibility to attack the weakness of even the best teams. He can change up his game plan, he is WILLING to change up the game plan and personnel to put the best version of the Pats on the field that can counter what you do well or take advantage of what you don't do well. Last year's playoff run is a great example. He had the personnel to run a defensive minded, ball control approach and implemented the plan almost on a dime.

this ability to take advantage of weaknesses against even great teams has got to be worth +5% (or more) in a team's chances of winning.
As far as emulating the Pats  
MetsAreBack : 9/9/2019 10:48 am : link
Put one in the ‘no shit’ file

As for the rest of your post, yes they stepped up and grabbed AB when everyone else thought he was toxic (by the way at least 5 teams per Mort were interested) - how is that different than what the Raiders tried to do in March?

Or what the Cleveland browns did this past offseason? (How’d they look yesterday?)
RE: They are the patriots and they do it their way because ...  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 10:53 am : link
In comment 14567805 Spider56 said:
Quote:
They have the greatest coach of all time and the owner trusts him to do it his way. You cant emulate them; the giants need to find their own way.

But ... your point about trusting youth is fully valid ... players on our practice squad may be better than some on the active roster.


yes he is the greatest coach of all time. But don't tell me there aren't equal geniuses around. Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick arent the only smart guys in the room. The problem is owners around the league are too willing to hand over the reins to dumb ex-jocks.
RE: As far as emulating the Pats  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14567817 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
Put one in the ‘no shit’ file

As for the rest of your post, yes they stepped up and grabbed AB when everyone else thought he was toxic (by the way at least 5 teams per Mort were interested) - how is that different than what the Raiders tried to do in March?

Or what the Cleveland browns did this past offseason? (How’d they look yesterday?)


If it's "no-shit" why are the Giants doing things that the Pats wouldn't do? Would BB stick with Eli when he is obviously washed up?
RE: Emulating the Pats is easy  
Matt in SGS : 9/9/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14567803 BigBlue2112 said:
Quote:
-get the greatest coach of all time.

-get arguably the greatest QB of all time.

-Have your owner pay your QB's salary through TB12 and other avenues to free cap space.

-have the best OL coach in the league that turns UDFA into stars.


Add in a healthy dose of playing in a division with the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills (ie- 3 franchises who are jokes) and they sleepwalk to 11 wins every year, and a first round bye.

The Giants sadly play in a division with an extremely well run Eagles team, and a Cowboys team which stopped letting Jerruh's whims dictate the team and they've made smart moves for years.

The Patriots are a perfect storm that won't be duplicated.
RE: Emulating the Pats is easy  
Ron Johnson : 9/9/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14567803 BigBlue2112 said:
Quote:


-Have your owner pay your QB's salary through TB12 and other avenues to free cap space.



I agree, they also cheat
RE: RE: Emulating the Pats is easy  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14567853 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14567803 BigBlue2112 said:


Quote:


-get the greatest coach of all time.

-get arguably the greatest QB of all time.

-Have your owner pay your QB's salary through TB12 and other avenues to free cap space.

-have the best OL coach in the league that turns UDFA into stars.



Add in a healthy dose of playing in a division with the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills (ie- 3 franchises who are jokes) and they sleepwalk to 11 wins every year, and a first round bye.

The Giants sadly play in a division with an extremely well run Eagles team, and a Cowboys team which stopped letting Jerruh's whims dictate the team and they've made smart moves for years.

The Patriots are a perfect storm that won't be duplicated.


I don't see that the Giants are running their team as the Pats do. I don't think these are moves BB would make. He wouldn't still have Eli on the team. He doesn't run his teams on sentimentality. He doesn't insist everyone like each other.
Keeping..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/9/2019 11:03 am : link
a solid locker room is a BB staple:

Quote:
3. They care about locker room leadership but they aren't slaves to it.


He literally has a core group of players that are "his guys" and they run the locker room and police the players. It is why he takes chances on players with troubled backgrounds. That works on winning teams. It doesn't on losing teams.

When we keep guys for their locker room presence, we are mocked. But the Pats have consistently done this for years. What he isn't a slave to is cutting bait with guys who aren't cutting it - and it isn't the locker room leaders. It is guys who want too much money or attention or are just poor football players.
RE: Emulating the Pats is easy  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14567803 BigBlue2112 said:
Quote:
-get the greatest coach of all time.

-get arguably the greatest QB of all time.

-Have your owner pay your QB's salary through TB12 and other avenues to free cap space.

-have the best OL coach in the league that turns UDFA into stars.

It's really uncanny how they call someone off their couch and start him at LT.
RE: Keeping..  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14567873 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a solid locker room is a BB staple:



Quote:


3. They care about locker room leadership but they aren't slaves to it.



He literally has a core group of players that are "his guys" and they run the locker room and police the players. It is why he takes chances on players with troubled backgrounds. That works on winning teams. It doesn't on losing teams.

When we keep guys for their locker room presence, we are mocked. But the Pats have consistently done this for years. What he isn't a slave to is cutting bait with guys who aren't cutting it - and it isn't the locker room leaders. It is guys who want too much money or attention or are just poor football players.


well they do not shy about taking chances on moss, ab, blount, etc..

so i would say they are obviously not slaves to the locker room guys mantra..
TB12 the company  
pjcas18 : 9/9/2019 11:34 am : link
reportedly generates around a million dollars a year in revenue and employs 20 people.

that's how the Patriots mysteriously get around the cap and funnel millions to Brady to make up for below market contracts?

Not the fact he just takes more because his wife is a billionaire?

Do any of you conspiracy theorists think that if there was a shred of truth to the TB12 funding conspiracy that a) all teams would have their QB's (or other high profile players) form nutrition companies or b) the Patriots biggest rivals would petition the league to investigate potential impropriety?

But regardless of facts you perpetuate unfounded rumors as though they are truth.

TB12 seems sketchy, but none of you knows that it is.
RE: TB12 the company  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14567980 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
reportedly generates around a million dollars a year in revenue and employs 20 people.

that's how the Patriots mysteriously get around the cap and funnel millions to Brady to make up for below market contracts?

Not the fact he just takes more because his wife is a billionaire?

Do any of you conspiracy theorists think that if there was a shred of truth to the TB12 funding conspiracy that a) all teams would have their QB's (or other high profile players) form nutrition companies or b) the Patriots biggest rivals would petition the league to investigate potential impropriety?

But regardless of facts you perpetuate unfounded rumors as though they are truth.

TB12 seems sketchy, but none of you knows that it is.


it is easier to say the Pats cheat than to look at what they are doing and try to emulate it. Sure they have the best of everything, including the best OL coach.. can we even get the 2nd best ol coach or third best??? i don't believe in coincidences... and i don't feel the giants should cede intelligent management, roster management, and and gameplanning to the Pats. A smart organization would look at what they are doing and catch up.
To the OP...  
bw in dc : 9/9/2019 11:40 am : link
Let's wait and see how this AB situation plays out before we call this another Pats coup. It's certainly low risk/high reward, which is smart to start the process. But the dividends have yet to be paid...

There are parts of their organization worth trying to emulate. By all accounts, they are at the top of the league in analytics and cap management. And they are terrific at finding assets in free agency at middle class level.

But after that, and maybe a few other things, they are an outlier. The best coach teamed with one of the great QBs, who is willing to take less because he drinks the BB Kool-Aid, place them in a completely different universe...
RE: To the OP...  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14568002 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Let's wait and see how this AB situation plays out before we call this another Pats coup. It's certainly low risk/high reward, which is smart to start the process. But the dividends have yet to be paid...

There are parts of their organization worth trying to emulate. By all accounts, they are at the top of the league in analytics and cap management. And they are terrific at finding assets in free agency at middle class level.

But after that, and maybe a few other things, they are an outlier. The best coach teamed with one of the great QBs, who is willing to take less because he drinks the BB Kool-Aid, place them in a completely different universe...


I disagree they are in another universe. Brady is great but he is much greater because of the presence of BB and commitment to excellence of the entire org. The best thing the Pats do is they do not have holy cows. They let intelligent analysis and winning dictate their moves. Look around the league. There are precious few teams who have this philosophy. The Giants let sentimentality rule the day and some locker room fantasy. Dumb ex-jocks are in positions of power and consequence because ownership likes to hang out with jocks. Half the teams in the league are run by men of inferior intelligence. Sure.. that makes it easy for BB to romp over the likes of Doug Marrone and I am sorry to say probably Dave Gettleman..
Let's not emulate the Patriots  
Tom in DC : 9/9/2019 11:47 am : link
The Patriots are an unethical embarrassment. They have been caught cheating twice and penalized heavily. Their owner is accused of paying for sexual services. Their policy of ignoring off the field issues allowed them to employ the murderer Aaron Hernandez. Their is something terribly fishy going off with their compensation of Tom Brady and the potential paying him outside the salary cap with their contact with his peak performance nutrition company.

There are comparisons between their AB move and their signing of Randy Moss, but lets remember they never achieved success with Moss. Also, the signing of AB doesn't smell right to me and

We have achieved better than average success in the league without having to stoop to their level. Let's not overreact because our below average pass rush disappeared against one of the leagues top O-Lines.
RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14568029 Tom in DC said:
Quote:
The Patriots are an unethical embarrassment. They have been caught cheating twice and penalized heavily. Their owner is accused of paying for sexual services. Their policy of ignoring off the field issues allowed them to employ the murderer Aaron Hernandez. Their is something terribly fishy going off with their compensation of Tom Brady and the potential paying him outside the salary cap with their contact with his peak performance nutrition company.

There are comparisons between their AB move and their signing of Randy Moss, but lets remember they never achieved success with Moss. Also, the signing of AB doesn't smell right to me and

We have achieved better than average success in the league without having to stoop to their level. Let's not overreact because our below average pass rush disappeared against one of the leagues top O-Lines.


They didn't achieve success with Randy Moss? I don't remember it that way.
RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
bw in dc : 9/9/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14568029 Tom in DC said:
Quote:
The Patriots are an unethical embarrassment. They have been caught cheating twice and penalized heavily. Their owner is accused of paying for sexual services. Their policy of ignoring off the field issues allowed them to employ the murderer Aaron Hernandez. Their is something terribly fishy going off with their compensation of Tom Brady and the potential paying him outside the salary cap with their contact with his peak performance nutrition company.

There are comparisons between their AB move and their signing of Randy Moss, but lets remember they never achieved success with Moss. Also, the signing of AB doesn't smell right to me and

We have achieved better than average success in the league without having to stoop to their level. Let's not overreact because our below average pass rush disappeared against one of the leagues top O-Lines.


They never achieved success with Moss? Really?

Spy Gate was a joke. Mangini was a tattle tale on his old boss who was doing what every other coach in the league did. Even Jimmy Johnson found the allegation laughable because he did it.

Deflate Gate was another joke. Since Deflate Gate the Pats have won 3 more SBs and continue to be a team that doesn't fumble much.

What else? The allegations they spied on the Rams walk through in 2002? Of course, most of the uninformed forget the Pats earlier that year when to St Louis and played the Rams very tight. Only lost 24-17. Furthermore, the problem with the Rams O that day was two fold - (1) the Pats were just more physical on D than the Rams O and (2) Warner hurt his hand in the game so he wasn't as sharp.

Okay, so 80 year old Kraft received a happy ending. What a tragedy...
September 2019  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 11:59 am : link
Yep
RE: Keeping..  
chuckydee9 : 9/9/2019 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14567873 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a solid locker room is a BB staple:



Quote:


3. They care about locker room leadership but they aren't slaves to it.



He literally has a core group of players that are "his guys" and they run the locker room and police the players. It is why he takes chances on players with troubled backgrounds. That works on winning teams. It doesn't on losing teams.

When we keep guys for their locker room presence, we are mocked. But the Pats have consistently done this for years. What he isn't a slave to is cutting bait with guys who aren't cutting it - and it isn't the locker room leaders. It is guys who want too much money or attention or are just poor football players.


I'd like to know who these core group of non-performing players are and how long he has kept them? He dumps everyone .. and from everything I hear, TB gets the same treatment in the locker room as the rest of the guys and he chews out Brady as well.. They cut bait with anyone that's not performing or they lower their compensation to coincide with the lower performance..
RE: RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
Tom in DC : 9/9/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14568041 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14568029 Tom in DC said:


Quote:


The Patriots are an unethical embarrassment. They have been caught cheating twice and penalized heavily. Their owner is accused of paying for sexual services. Their policy of ignoring off the field issues allowed them to employ the murderer Aaron Hernandez. Their is something terribly fishy going off with their compensation of Tom Brady and the potential paying him outside the salary cap with their contact with his peak performance nutrition company.

There are comparisons between their AB move and their signing of Randy Moss, but lets remember they never achieved success with Moss. Also, the signing of AB doesn't smell right to me and

We have achieved better than average success in the league without having to stoop to their level. Let's not overreact because our below average pass rush disappeared against one of the leagues top O-Lines.



They didn't achieve success with Randy Moss? I don't remember it that way.


They didn't win the Superbowl, they just put up stats.
RE: RE: RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
pjcas18 : 9/9/2019 1:08 pm : link
In comment 14568187 Tom in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 14568041 AndyMilligan said:


Quote:


In comment 14568029 Tom in DC said:


Quote:


The Patriots are an unethical embarrassment. They have been caught cheating twice and penalized heavily. Their owner is accused of paying for sexual services. Their policy of ignoring off the field issues allowed them to employ the murderer Aaron Hernandez. Their is something terribly fishy going off with their compensation of Tom Brady and the potential paying him outside the salary cap with their contact with his peak performance nutrition company.

There are comparisons between their AB move and their signing of Randy Moss, but lets remember they never achieved success with Moss. Also, the signing of AB doesn't smell right to me and

We have achieved better than average success in the league without having to stoop to their level. Let's not overreact because our below average pass rush disappeared against one of the leagues top O-Lines.



They didn't achieve success with Randy Moss? I don't remember it that way.



They didn't win the Superbowl, they just put up stats.


LOL. They were 18 - 1. 1 - f-ing loss. that's not success its "just stats" to you?

holy shit.
RE: RE: RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 1:11 pm : link
In comment 14568187 Tom in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 14568041 AndyMilligan said:


Quote:


In comment 14568029 Tom in DC said:


Quote:


The Patriots are an unethical embarrassment. They have been caught cheating twice and penalized heavily. Their owner is accused of paying for sexual services. Their policy of ignoring off the field issues allowed them to employ the murderer Aaron Hernandez. Their is something terribly fishy going off with their compensation of Tom Brady and the potential paying him outside the salary cap with their contact with his peak performance nutrition company.

There are comparisons between their AB move and their signing of Randy Moss, but lets remember they never achieved success with Moss. Also, the signing of AB doesn't smell right to me and

We have achieved better than average success in the league without having to stoop to their level. Let's not overreact because our below average pass rush disappeared against one of the leagues top O-Lines.



They didn't achieve success with Randy Moss? I don't remember it that way.



They didn't win the Superbowl, they just put up stats.

they broke records, they had the best regular season in history, they are probably the greatest team to not win the super bowl. you're are basically saying unless you win the super bowl there is no such thing as success.
RE: RE: RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
bw in dc : 9/9/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14568187 Tom in DC said:
Quote:


They didn't win the Superbowl, they just put up stats.


So when you speak with friends about 2008, do you say we beat a great Patriots team or just a team that compiled great stats?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let's not emulate the Patriots  
Tom in DC : 9/9/2019 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14568198 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14568187 Tom in DC said:


Quote:




They didn't win the Superbowl, they just put up stats.



So when you speak with friends about 2008, do you say we beat a great Patriots team or just a team that compiled great stats?


I didn't realize my post was going to be so controversial. The Patriots goal was to win the superbowl, not to merely put up great stats, so by definition, their signing of Moss didn't work out. Moss disappears when it counts (see the 2001 NFC championship game).

The Patriots overall have had a lot of success but they have done some shady things to achieve that success.

One thing I don't think is appreciated enough is how long Brady and BB have been together. They have an amazing rapport after 18 years together and I'm not sure that has happened before. Maybe the Patriots secret sauce is nothing more than the specific Brady and BB rapport with a sprinkling of bending the rules.
Moss disappears when it counts?  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 2:06 pm : link
He caught the go-ahead TD with 2:45 remaining in the game in SB XLII.
The Patriots  
pjcas18 : 9/9/2019 2:09 pm : link
traded a 4th round pick for Moss.

On what planet, by what metric did that not work out?

When you're in a hole, stop digging.
RE: The Patriots  
Tom in DC : 9/9/2019 3:30 pm : link
In comment 14568361 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
traded a 4th round pick for Moss.

On what planet, by what metric did that not work out?

When you're in a hole, stop digging.


Fine, I will admit that Moss for a 4th was a decent pick up. I am forever biased against Moss after his 2 receptions for 18 yards in the 2001 NFC championship game.
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