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Multi-year rebuilds donít exist anymore?

Dave in PA : 9/9/2019 5:20 pm
How is that exactly? This franchise is going to take at least 2 more years (4 total in Gettleman era) to hopefully acquire (draft, trade, FA) enough talent to be lifted from cellar dweller status. They still need to strengthen and find additional depth for the Oline (this includes a long term left tackle replacement), they have to find some linebackers that are at a minimum league average to play the 3-4, free safety has been vacant for how many years now?, might need some receivers for that new QB, an additional two way TE is a must AND we donít have a single established pass rusher outside of Golden who probably isnít a long term solution.

Obviously none of this is news and has been said a thousand times today alone, but I read several time that 5 year rebuilds donít exist. This is going to take 4 or 5 years total, at minimum. The only silver lining in all of this is that we no longer have to worry about spending huge draft capital on a QB.
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we don't have to worry about QB?  
Justlurking : 9/9/2019 5:27 pm : link
Says who? Our defense looked ok in preseason too. How did that work out?

Also, the problem here is that we are pretending that we are not rebuilding. Playing Eli simply prolongs the rebuild. Jones needs to play ASAP so they can move on.
have you factored in  
mdc1 : 9/9/2019 5:27 pm : link
how the league might changed during that rebuild? That is is the insane part of being behind in talent and management. Time to reboot with the the new QB, now......see what you have.
RE: we don't have to worry about QB?  
mdc1 : 9/9/2019 5:30 pm : link
In comment 14568932 Justlurking said:
Quote:
Our defense looked ok in preseason too. How did that work out?



no you could see the keystone cops indicators.
RE: we don't have to worry about QB?  
Dave in PA : 9/9/2019 5:33 pm : link
In comment 14568932 Justlurking said:
Quote:
Says who? Our defense looked ok in preseason too. How did that work out?

Also, the problem here is that we are pretending that we are not rebuilding. Playing Eli simply prolongs the rebuild. Jones needs to play ASAP so they can move on.
You almost have to bake in that Jones isnít a bust. If he tanks, shows over.
The rebuilds exist  
Sneakers O'toole : 9/9/2019 5:34 pm : link
The patience for them doesn't.
Multi year rebuilds do exist  
Blue The Dog : 9/9/2019 5:46 pm : link
But it shouldn't take 4-5 years just to not be in the basement of the NFL. Obviously it is very early in the season and we have to see how the rest of the year goes, but you would hope that with 2 off-seasons worth of talent acquisition, you could see some progress on the field. I'm not taking about even being in playoff contention, but if we are still in the same spot we have been in for the past 7 years, that's a bit worrying.

I'm just at the point where when we get destroyed by the cowboys on opening night, I barely care anymore. I just kinda expect it. That's not a good sign
So now we're up to a 4 year rebuild?  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/9/2019 5:50 pm : link
Common consensus, as recently as even a few days ago, that it was a 3 year rebuild. I guess a thorough asskicking will justify tacking an extra year onto the process.

In any case, at a certain point you have to consider whether you might have wasted some opportunities along the way that led to the rebuild taking longer than it should have. If you're at 4 years (assuming you mean that the 4th year is the one in which you're truly competitive), that means that the draft class from the first year of the rebuild is now in the final year of their contract. If it takes any longer than that, you're now making 2nd-contract decisions on players while you're still in the rebuilding process - that seems wildly inefficient.

In the Giants case, if this rebuild ends up taking the entirety of Barkley's rookie contract and only really starts to pay dividends in his second contract and as Jones is approaching his second contract as well, it feels like it's unlikely that it will have worked out really well.

3 years is probably the max amount of time it should take. That gives you 20+ draft picks, another 15-30 UDFA, enough time to clear out bad contracts and eat your dead money medicine, and you should by then have a young core and a healthy cap.

The Giants have already turned over almost their entire roster since Gettleman took over. If he batted 1.000 (which isn't realistic, but I'm illustrating the point), theoretically the rebuild could be complete already. Tacking on another year to get past the salary cap quagmire that we're in and to add another very good draft class is reasonable. It would be disappointing if it takes another year after that before we're even competitive.

Miami is doing a proper tear down an rebuild  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 5:52 pm : link
It will be interesting to see how if works out and if they will have enough patience to see it out.

I could see them getting frustrated in a year or two and going on a free agency spending spree that makes them somewhat competitive in the short term but destroys chances for sustained success.
I think one more strong offseason  
eli4life : 9/9/2019 5:56 pm : link
Focusing on defense and the glaring holes and we will be competitive
RE: Miami is doing a proper tear down an rebuild  
gmenatlarge : 9/9/2019 5:56 pm : link
In comment 14568997 ron mexico said:
Quote:
It will be interesting to see how if works out and if they will have enough patience to see it out.

I could see them getting frustrated in a year or two and going on a free agency spending spree that makes them somewhat competitive in the short term but destroys chances for sustained success.


I donít see Miami as a shining example of rebuilding....
RE: RE: Miami is doing a proper tear down an rebuild  
ron mexico : 9/9/2019 5:58 pm : link
In comment 14569007 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 14568997 ron mexico said:


Quote:


It will be interesting to see how if works out and if they will have enough patience to see it out.

I could see them getting frustrated in a year or two and going on a free agency spending spree that makes them somewhat competitive in the short term but destroys chances for sustained success.



I donít see Miami as a shining example of rebuilding....


Well they are still in the demo phase. You will have to wait till after the commercial break to see how good the shiplap looks in the foyer.
Per the OP...  
bw in dc : 9/9/2019 6:01 pm : link
Quote:
The only silver lining in all of this is that we no longer have to worry about spending huge draft capital on a QB.


I wish I had your confidence that that piece has indeed been solved. In fact, I'm all ears how you arrived at that decision.

To me, and I apologize how redundant this has become, but until we see that for a fact we need to see if that's possible as soon as possible.
RE: Per the OP...  
Dave in PA : 9/9/2019 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14569018 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Quote:


The only silver lining in all of this is that we no longer have to worry about spending huge draft capital on a QB.



I wish I had your confidence that that piece has indeed been solved. In fact, I'm all ears how you arrived at that decision.

To me, and I apologize how redundant this has become, but until we see that for a fact we need to see if that's possible as soon as possible.
Itís a guess. If Jones fails then there is no way this rebuild can be completed (at least not with this regime)
Also, if this is a 4-5 year rebuild  
Blue The Dog : 9/9/2019 6:06 pm : link
Then starting it with an RB at 2 overall is extraordinarily dumb, no matter the talent. Even the greatest RBs have careers of about 6 or 7 great years if they avoid injuries. If this rebuild doesn't get us competitive by next year, we have wasted over half of Saquon's career. That doesn't even get into the contract portion of it that the above poster mentioned.
RE: Also, if this is a 4-5 year rebuild  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 6:08 pm : link
In comment 14569025 Blue The Dog said:
Quote:
Then starting it with an RB at 2 overall is extraordinarily dumb, no matter the talent. Even the greatest RBs have careers of about 6 or 7 great years if they avoid injuries. If this rebuild doesn't get us competitive by next year, we have wasted over half of Saquon's career. That doesn't even get into the contract portion of it that the above poster mentioned.

agree
5 years minimum???  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 6:10 pm : link
It's not 1980.
C'mon, that's ridiculous  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 6:12 pm : link
Rosters turn over faster than that for teams that DON'T want to rebuild, let alone for teams that need to churn underperforming players.

And that's without considering that it shouldn't take multiple years before you see *improvement*, let alone success.
From Chip Kelly's last year in 2015 to their SB team in 2017  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 6:16 pm : link
The Eagles replaced all of their defensive starters but Malcolm Jenkins. Nelson Agholor was the only holdover among skill position players on offense.

Now, they did have a significant advantage on the Giants in that they had some top quality o-linemen to build on, and they weren't near as bad as the Giants in the first place, but explain to me how they can successfully overhaul most of their roster in a few years but you're saying that it will take the Giants a minimum of 5 years.
RE: 5 years minimum???  
Dave in PA : 9/9/2019 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14569036 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
It's not 1980.
But what does this mean? There are only so many players you can acquire, only so many of them will be above average, let alone very good or even great. If I could look into the future and see that the Giants donít make the playoffs until 2022, is that really so absurd? This teams sucks hard.
It means that 5 year rebuilds were the norm before free agency  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 6:23 pm : link
Because there was no free agency. A player was yours as long as you wanted him to be. You could develop players gradually, knowing that they weren't going anywhere. You also didn't have a way to bring in good talent besides the draft and an odd trade here and there.
rebuilding  
giantfan2000 : 9/9/2019 6:30 pm : link
if we are now officially in rebuilding mode then keeping Eli Manning on the roster and paying him huge amount looks even worse now .

14.78% of our cap space is Manning
3rd HIGHEST IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR.

whatever rebuilding mode we are in we are a least a year behind because we kept Manning on roster.
...  
christian : 9/9/2019 6:35 pm : link
If I'm Mara my concern is Gettleman has traded virtually everything worth anything, and the Giants are in average, not great cap shape.

If this season is a disaster, keeping Jenkins, signing Tate, and kicking Solder's money down the line is going to stink.

Gettleman threw out all the furniture, no one should be surprised there isn't anywhere to sit just yet.

Maybe some of it smelled like cat piss, but did all of it? Maybe some of it just needed to be cleaned?
Reese really sunk this team  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2019 6:37 pm : link
His first coaching hire was Mcadoo ffs.

1+ years is nowhere near enough time to recover from that disaster.
RE: From Chip Kelly's last year in 2015 to their SB team in 2017  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 6:38 pm : link
In comment 14569051 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
The Eagles replaced all of their defensive starters but Malcolm Jenkins. Nelson Agholor was the only holdover among skill position players on offense.

Now, they did have a significant advantage on the Giants in that they had some top quality o-linemen to build on, and they weren't near as bad as the Giants in the first place, but explain to me how they can successfully overhaul most of their roster in a few years but you're saying that it will take the Giants a minimum of 5 years.


You mean they didn't have a WR ranked near the top of his position? And the second overall pick in the draft?

BBI has been filled with some ridiculous takes, but a parity era rebuild needing 5 years has to be the worst I've seen today. If Mara is onboard with that thinking it's time to find another team to root for.
RE: rebuilding  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2019 6:39 pm : link
In comment 14569100 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
if we are now officially in rebuilding mode then keeping Eli Manning on the roster and paying him huge amount looks even worse now .

14.78% of our cap space is Manning
3rd HIGHEST IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR.

whatever rebuilding mode we are in we are a least a year behind because we kept Manning on roster.

Eli looked allright to me last game, throwing into pressure, accurate throws, no TOs, escaping sackers like Cunningham for strikes down the field.
RE: RE: 5 years minimum???  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/9/2019 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14569060 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
In comment 14569036 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


It's not 1980.

But what does this mean? There are only so many players you can acquire, only so many of them will be above average, let alone very good or even great. If I could look into the future and see that the Giants donít make the playoffs until 2022, is that really so absurd? This teams sucks hard.

I think you're overestimating the difference between being a team that "sucks hard" and a team that can contend for a championship. Three years gives you the opportunity to draft 20+ rookies and sign another 20+ UDFA that can become contributors. That leaves another 15 or so players to fill out your roster - three years also gives you plenty of time to clean up your salary cap situation and be able to supplement your roster with free agents to complete your roster.

In short, if it takes you 4+ years to rebuild, you probably pissed away a year or more along the way with a few missteps.
look at the teams that made  
japanhead : 9/9/2019 6:41 pm : link
the playoffs last year. many of them took well over three years to improve to playoff-hunt level teams (texans, titans, bears in particular). the other playoff teams have the best QBs and coaches in the game: brady/belichick, brees/payton, wilson/carroll, rodgers, luck, mcveigh, reid, harbaugh, etc.

the eagles are the exception, as i'm not sure about pederson but they are stacked on both lines, have great playmakers in sproles, ertz, etc and the foles/wentz thing worked out for them the year they won it all. but the eagles and even dallas missed the playoffs 5 years straight just recently.

each teams situation is unique, i think that's why gettleman said he hates the word rebuild, because the goal is to just keep building or some shit like that..

but: how much of an edge does shurmur gives us in the coaching dept? i'd say none, and to this point, has been actually negative regarding in-game decisions. he's no belichick or reid, to be sure. but, sadly for us, he's also the worst coach in the NFC east, and by a pretty wide margin (even though gruden might be shitcanned).
RE: Also, if this is a 4-5 year rebuild  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2019 6:43 pm : link
In comment 14569025 Blue The Dog said:
Quote:
Then starting it with an RB at 2 overall is extraordinarily dumb, no matter the talent. Even the greatest RBs have careers of about 6 or 7 great years if they avoid injuries. If this rebuild doesn't get us competitive by next year, we have wasted over half of Saquon's career. That doesn't even get into the contract portion of it that the above poster mentioned.

SB has tremendous trade value right now. We can get a Hershel Walker trade for him, Chi, Seattle, Pit i.e.,
yes, some teams do a lousy job of rebuilding  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2019 6:44 pm : link
Is that who we're trying to emulate?
RE: look at the teams that made  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2019 6:45 pm : link
In comment 14569135 japanhead said:
Quote:
the playoffs last year. many of them took well over three years to improve to playoff-hunt level teams (texans, titans, bears in particular). the other playoff teams have the best QBs and coaches in the game: brady/belichick, brees/payton, wilson/carroll, rodgers, luck, mcveigh, reid, harbaugh, etc.

the eagles are the exception, as i'm not sure about pederson but they are stacked on both lines, have great playmakers in sproles, ertz, etc and the foles/wentz thing worked out for them the year they won it all. but the eagles and even dallas missed the playoffs 5 years straight just recently.

each teams situation is unique, i think that's why gettleman said he hates the word rebuild, because the goal is to just keep building or some shit like that..

but: how much of an edge does shurmur gives us in the coaching dept? i'd say none, and to this point, has been actually negative regarding in-game decisions. he's no belichick or reid, to be sure. but, sadly for us, he's also the worst coach in the NFC east, and by a pretty wide margin (even though gruden might be shitcanned).

Shormor is worse than garbage. He set up it up so Tanney would be selected over Lauletta. Fire him NOW.
So letís see who could pick the 3rd new coach in 4 years.  
joe48 : 9/9/2019 7:32 pm : link
Then we can start over again. Maybe Vince Lombardi is available.
The Dallas Cowboys started the rebuild on their OL through draft with Fredericks back in 2013. We do not have the talent and depth for a quick 2 year fix.
So letís see who could pick the 3rd new coach in 4 years.  
joe48 : 9/9/2019 7:33 pm : link
Then we can start over again. Maybe Vince Lombardi is available.
The Dallas Cowboys started the rebuild on their OL through draft with Fredericks back in 2013. We do not have the talent and depth for a quick 2 year fix.
This team is where the cowboys were in 2012 basically  
mattlawson : 9/9/2019 8:36 pm : link
And they havenít had many losing seasons, have drafted well, have addressed every key position and made great progress year over year. They are 7-8 years in to their rebuild and have had a couple really good seasons sprinkled in with a few disappointing finishes. But no losing seasons and after seeing that team yesterday wipe their ass with our D , we have a long way to go
RE: From Chip Kelly's last year in 2015 to their SB team in 2017  
McNally's_Nuts : 9/9/2019 8:42 pm : link
In comment 14569051 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
The Eagles replaced all of their defensive starters but Malcolm Jenkins. Nelson Agholor was the only holdover among skill position players on offense.

Now, they did have a significant advantage on the Giants in that they had some top quality o-linemen to build on, and they weren't near as bad as the Giants in the first place, but explain to me how they can successfully overhaul most of their roster in a few years but you're saying that it will take the Giants a minimum of 5 years.


Likely because the Eagles still had a bunch of talent on both sides of the ball.

They were a playoff team w/ Foles in 2013.
RE: So letís see who could pick the 3rd new coach in 4 years.  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 8:46 pm : link
In comment 14569237 joe48 said:
Quote:
Then we can start over again. Maybe Vince Lombardi is available.
The Dallas Cowboys started the rebuild on their OL through draft with Fredericks back in 2013. We do not have the talent and depth for a quick 2 year fix.


You know who could pick the new coach? The new GM.

The new GM that would be hired after they get rid of the rest of the rotten core. No more Abrams. No more Chris Mara, and whatever it is he does here regardless of title.

Bring in a new sheriff, let him revamp the scouting department, hire some coaches and see how it goes. The Giants Way worked for awhile until it didn't - it's broken and it needs to be fixed, pronto.

Until then, you can convince yourself that year 6 of the 20 year rebuild is going as expected, it's not going to mean anything.
I just want a tough, physical team..  
Sean : 9/9/2019 8:53 pm : link
I know when you have a young QB, itís important to have an offensive coach to help groom him. However, Iím ready for a defensive minded HC if Shurmur doesnít pan out.

All this talk about multi-year rebuilds, it comes down to this and Greg makes a good example in Philly:

1. Find your QB (hopefully Jones is the guy)
2. Protect your QB
3. Get players to rush their QB

Thatís a lot of it. The Eagles secondary stinks, but they have a great DL which includes depth.

In order to get our rebuild started, we need to play Jones and see what we have (so far it looks good). But, itís important to see & this should happen ASAP. If he is the guy, load up in the trenches and NEVER get complacent. Constantly draft for depth and donít let it erode like the Giants did.

You do that & youíve got sustainable success.
These threads are always dumb  
WillVAB : 9/9/2019 8:55 pm : link
Especially when the OP starts red lining every single starting spot on the team. As if the good teams have Pro Bowl caliber players at every starting position on offense and defense. Grow up.

The Giants need to continue to rebuild the OL and build a pass rush. That should be the focus moving forward. If they successfully accomplish that feat they will be a playoff team. If Daniel Jones is the goods they will be a super bowl caliber team. Itís that simple.

A questionable LB or Safety or FB or long snapper or gunner shouldnít be the focus of anxiety riddled fans.
jcn56  
Sean : 9/9/2019 8:55 pm : link
Thatís why we need to see Jones ASAP. What if we go 3-13 & hire a new GM who likes Tua/Fromm/Herbert more than Jones? We need to get as big a sample size as possible.
RE: jcn56  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 9:00 pm : link
In comment 14569384 Sean said:
Quote:
Thatís why we need to see Jones ASAP. What if we go 3-13 & hire a new GM who likes Tua/Fromm/Herbert more than Jones? We need to get as big a sample size as possible.


Or worse, what if Jones is actually no good? Preseason is preseason - and that was a very small sample size at that.

If it turns out Jones isn't a viable option, then this rebuild really has gone nowhere fast, and it's time to get the people responsible for it out of town ASAP.
RE: These threads are always dumb  
Dave in PA : 9/9/2019 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14569383 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Especially when the OP starts red lining every single starting spot on the team. As if the good teams have Pro Bowl caliber players at every starting position on offense and defense. Grow up.

The Giants need to continue to rebuild the OL and build a pass rush. That should be the focus moving forward. If they successfully accomplish that feat they will be a playoff team. If Daniel Jones is the goods they will be a super bowl caliber team. Itís that simple.

A questionable LB or Safety or FB or long snapper or gunner shouldnít be the focus of anxiety riddled fans.
Its too much of a stretch to request a league average free safety, league average linebackers, a reliable 2 way tight end and recognize that the OL still isnít a finished product and might need 2 new starting OTís before this thing really gets going with some momentum? Thatís a dumb take? I think Iím being realistic.
the league  
AndyMilligan : 9/9/2019 9:07 pm : link
changes so quickly you should be able to come up with a scheme that can get some success even by accident sometimes. There is no excuse for being perpetually undermanned and noncompetitive. The Giants are basically choosing to be noncompetitive by playing Manning, a player that is woefully diminished.
RE: look at the teams that made  
eclipz928 : 9/9/2019 9:21 pm : link
In comment 14569135 japanhead said:
Quote:
the playoffs last year. many of them took well over three years to improve to playoff-hunt level teams (texans, titans, bears in particular). the other playoff teams have the best QBs and coaches in the game: brady/belichick, brees/payton, wilson/carroll, rodgers, luck, mcveigh, reid, harbaugh, etc.

the eagles are the exception, as i'm not sure about pederson but they are stacked on both lines, have great playmakers in sproles, ertz, etc and the foles/wentz thing worked out for them the year they won it all. but the eagles and even dallas missed the playoffs 5 years straight just recently.

each teams situation is unique, i think that's why gettleman said he hates the word rebuild, because the goal is to just keep building or some shit like that..

but: how much of an edge does shurmur gives us in the coaching dept? i'd say none, and to this point, has been actually negative regarding in-game decisions. he's no belichick or reid, to be sure. but, sadly for us, he's also the worst coach in the NFC east, and by a pretty wide margin (even though gruden might be shitcanned).

. . . so are we just going to disregard the team that actually made it to the Super Bowl? The Rams were 4-12 in 2016. They made the playoffs the following year, and were competing for a championship the year after.

Rebuilds don't have to take forever. Having the right QB, and some good decision making can get you back in the hunt relatively quickly.
The OP is full of it  
giantstock : 9/9/2019 9:44 pm : link
If the QB is good next year - and with the cap space and an additional draft there is no reason they cant be playoff caliber next year.

WHile I have been negative the longest time some of you are going extreme the other way. It's one fucking football game. Some rookies and 2nd year guys will get better.

With a lot of money to spend in FA along with more high draft picks, if Jones is a keeper, they look potentially good for 2020.
RE: RE: These threads are always dumb  
WillVAB : 9/9/2019 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14569398 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
In comment 14569383 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Especially when the OP starts red lining every single starting spot on the team. As if the good teams have Pro Bowl caliber players at every starting position on offense and defense. Grow up.

The Giants need to continue to rebuild the OL and build a pass rush. That should be the focus moving forward. If they successfully accomplish that feat they will be a playoff team. If Daniel Jones is the goods they will be a super bowl caliber team. Itís that simple.

A questionable LB or Safety or FB or long snapper or gunner shouldnít be the focus of anxiety riddled fans.

Its too much of a stretch to request a league average free safety, league average linebackers, a reliable 2 way tight end and recognize that the OL still isnít a finished product and might need 2 new starting OTís before this thing really gets going with some momentum? Thatís a dumb take? I think Iím being realistic.


I think youíre hurting your argument by pointing out every single deficient position on the roster.

If you want to criticize Gettlemanís draft strategy or team building strategy, fine. Perfectly reasonable if backed by logical arguments.

Pointing out random starting spots you donít like makes you seem childish. Good teams win with deficient positions or deficient position groups all the time.

Itís all about having a sound philosophy and building the team in accordance with that philosophy. As Giants fans weíve witnessed two SB wins when the team didnít have studs across the board.
3 years is the timeframe for a rebuild  
Torrag : 9/9/2019 9:52 pm : link
If DG & Co. have gotten it right(and I'm optimistic they have)next year we'll field a playoff competitive roster.
RE: RE: RE: These threads are always dumb  
Dave in PA : 9/9/2019 11:32 pm : link
In comment 14569488 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14569398 Dave in PA said:


Quote:


In comment 14569383 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Especially when the OP starts red lining every single starting spot on the team. As if the good teams have Pro Bowl caliber players at every starting position on offense and defense. Grow up.

The Giants need to continue to rebuild the OL and build a pass rush. That should be the focus moving forward. If they successfully accomplish that feat they will be a playoff team. If Daniel Jones is the goods they will be a super bowl caliber team. Itís that simple.

A questionable LB or Safety or FB or long snapper or gunner shouldnít be the focus of anxiety riddled fans.

Its too much of a stretch to request a league average free safety, league average linebackers, a reliable 2 way tight end and recognize that the OL still isnít a finished product and might need 2 new starting OTís before this thing really gets going with some momentum? Thatís a dumb take? I think Iím being realistic.



I think youíre hurting your argument by pointing out every single deficient position on the roster.

If you want to criticize Gettlemanís draft strategy or team building strategy, fine. Perfectly reasonable if backed by logical arguments.

Pointing out random starting spots you donít like makes you seem childish. Good teams win with deficient positions or deficient position groups all the time.

Itís all about having a sound philosophy and building the team in accordance with that philosophy. As Giants fans weíve witnessed two SB wins when the team didnít have studs across the board.
Iím literally asking for league average players, not studs. Thatís just to get back to respectable mostly competitive football, something we havenít seen in quite a long time. I donít buy the stance that rebuilds either work or fail within an arbitrary 3 year window. Building this particular team up from the ashes of horrendous football seasons and more than a bit of bad injury luck is going to take longer. There are several key non-stud players that this team needs that arenít a part of the organization yet. Then there are critical positions, luckily not QB, but potentially both OTís and multiple pass rushers. These players are hard to find and if going by way of the draft will take time to develop in most cases. You definitely do need an overall solid team to sustain winning in this league and it very likely could take beyond next year to attain it and thatís not particularly indicative of anything other than how abysmal the team was after 2017.
That's some hefty exaggeration  
jcn56 : 9/9/2019 11:47 pm : link
The team went to the playoffs in 2016. They certainly had holes on the roster, but they weren't in position to burn the whole place down. Most of 2017 was due to injuries and a coach in way over his head.

And even if they were a dumpster fire - they'd have no business taking 5 years to get back to 'competitive'. This is a league built on parity, forcing good teams to lose talent to keep an even balance across the board and to prevent dynasties. If you can't build up in less than 2-3 seasons, then maybe you shouldn't be running a football team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: These threads are always dumb  
WillVAB : 9/9/2019 11:53 pm : link
In comment 14569655 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
In comment 14569488 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14569398 Dave in PA said:


Quote:


In comment 14569383 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Especially when the OP starts red lining every single starting spot on the team. As if the good teams have Pro Bowl caliber players at every starting position on offense and defense. Grow up.

The Giants need to continue to rebuild the OL and build a pass rush. That should be the focus moving forward. If they successfully accomplish that feat they will be a playoff team. If Daniel Jones is the goods they will be a super bowl caliber team. Itís that simple.

A questionable LB or Safety or FB or long snapper or gunner shouldnít be the focus of anxiety riddled fans.

Its too much of a stretch to request a league average free safety, league average linebackers, a reliable 2 way tight end and recognize that the OL still isnít a finished product and might need 2 new starting OTís before this thing really gets going with some momentum? Thatís a dumb take? I think Iím being realistic.



I think youíre hurting your argument by pointing out every single deficient position on the roster.

If you want to criticize Gettlemanís draft strategy or team building strategy, fine. Perfectly reasonable if backed by logical arguments.

Pointing out random starting spots you donít like makes you seem childish. Good teams win with deficient positions or deficient position groups all the time.

Itís all about having a sound philosophy and building the team in accordance with that philosophy. As Giants fans weíve witnessed two SB wins when the team didnít have studs across the board.

Iím literally asking for league average players, not studs. Thatís just to get back to respectable mostly competitive football, something we havenít seen in quite a long time. I donít buy the stance that rebuilds either work or fail within an arbitrary 3 year window. Building this particular team up from the ashes of horrendous football seasons and more than a bit of bad injury luck is going to take longer. There are several key non-stud players that this team needs that arenít a part of the organization yet. Then there are critical positions, luckily not QB, but potentially both OTís and multiple pass rushers. These players are hard to find and if going by way of the draft will take time to develop in most cases. You definitely do need an overall solid team to sustain winning in this league and it very likely could take beyond next year to attain it and thatís not particularly indicative of anything other than how abysmal the team was after 2017.


The Giants need passrushers and OL help. In the short term RT and long term LT. That can be solved with one player. Pass rushers are a problem.

Thatís really the crux of the problem though. A quality pass rush makes the back end look a lot better. A quality OL makes the skill guys and offense overall look better.

Can that be fixed in 2020? Maybe. Depends on what pass rushers are available in FA. The Giants will have money to spend. Depends on how the draft breaks. Definitely reasonable to think a turnaround is possible if the right players are available at impact positions.

Weíll have to see how this year shakes out but the core doesnít seem that far off. The OL is much better and heading in the right direction. Daniel Jones May be the next franchise QB. Barkley is the best back in the league. Some nice young receiving options. A good young core of run stopping DL.

The big unknown is the huge investment in the secondary. If they develop into quality players the path becomes pretty clear to fielding a high end defense ó pass rushing LBs. Weíll just have to see how this year plays out.
Maybe the biggest mistake that otherwise savvy fans here make  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 9/10/2019 12:45 am : link
is overrating the importance of the salary cap. For the last six years the league has increased the cap by 10 to 12 million dollars a year. In contrast, the cap was raised only 600 thousand in 2012 and 2.6 million in 2013.

Do you see Dallas having to make one of those tough decisions on what star player to drop in order to pay the other stars? Nope. They're signing them all at top dollar.

Trouble is that traditionally many people here haven't liked the idea of spending a lot of money in free agency.

Reese seemed to do the best job of anyone in a decade when in the 2015-16 off season he signed Harrison, Jenkins and Vernon. Jenkins the only (deserving) survivor but management had a brain fart when they traded Harrison for a fifth round pick to Detroit, where he immediately had an impact on the run defense. If you believe in PFF, he was the third most effective DL in the league against the run.

Vernon the probable bad egg, but even he was chosen for the Pro Bowl last season. It's said that even though he doesn't have a lot of sacks, he has lots and lots of hits on the QB. I don't know if that's true or not. I didn't really notice it.

They should have kept Harrison. No reason for giving him away to Detroit, where he once again provided immediate improvement in the run defense.

So they lose Harrison and have to burn a first rounder on Lawrence. They know he can't rush the passer (he says he can) but they're not even sure he's a great run stopper.

So many other places they could have used that first rounder if had kept Harrison.
RE: Maybe the biggest mistake that otherwise savvy fans here make  
justafan : 9/10/2019 1:39 am : link
In comment 14569711 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:
is overrating the importance of the salary cap. For the last six years the league has increased the cap by 10 to 12 million dollars a year. In contrast, the cap was raised only 600 thousand in 2012 and 2.6 million in 2013.

Do you see Dallas having to make one of those tough decisions on what star player to drop in order to pay the other stars? Nope. They're signing them all at top dollar.

Trouble is that traditionally many people here haven't liked the idea of spending a lot of money in free agency.

Reese seemed to do the best job of anyone in a decade when in the 2015-16 off season he signed Harrison, Jenkins and Vernon. Jenkins the only (deserving) survivor but management had a brain fart when they traded Harrison for a fifth round pick to Detroit, where he immediately had an impact on the run defense. If you believe in PFF, he was the third most effective DL in the league against the run.

Vernon the probable bad egg, but even he was chosen for the Pro Bowl last season. It's said that even though he doesn't have a lot of sacks, he has lots and lots of hits on the QB. I don't know if that's true or not. I didn't really notice it.

They should have kept Harrison. No reason for giving him away to Detroit, where he once again provided immediate improvement in the run defense.

So they lose Harrison and have to burn a first-rounder on Lawrence. They know he can't rush the passer (he says he can) but they're not even sure he's a great run stopper.

So many other places they could have used that first-rounder if had kept Harrison.


In under 10 years, the Giants went from a good offensive and defensive line to no offensive line and needing a spending spree to have a defense. And that defense overachieved, once it stopped over achieving the wheels came off. It was a Jerry Reese team that had a Fullback lining up as DT. It was a Jerry Reese team that drafted guys like Flowers, Pugh, and Apple. Can you name any good draft picks outside of Collins and Odell in the last few years of Reese? Maybe Hankins can be added to that list. Oh and btw, he needed to spend on Snacks because he let one of his good picks go: Linval Joseph.

Dude, the team needed to be burned down. The last two drafts have been pretty good. I don't like some of the FA pickups by DG, but outside of Solder there is no long-term money locked up. He was crafty with Tate as well since the suspension saved the Giants some guarantees.
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