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Defense - Youth or Talent Issue?

christian : 9/11/2019 10:20 am
I posted this in a thread last night, I was surprised to see listed out how many high picks and resources are devoted to the defense.

You guys think this is a matter of a bunch of young guys being called on to step up and it will take time, especially with a banged up secondary, or is it really a talent issue? I read time to time it's a shit roster, is it really?

Presumed Starters

- Hill (3rd)
- Tomlinson (2nd, Reese)
- Lawrence (1st)
- Carter (3rd)
- Ogletree (Trade, former 1st)
- Davis (UDFA)
- Golden (UFA)
- Jenkins (UFA,Reese)
- Baker (1st)
- Bethea (UFA)
- Peppers (Trade, former 1st)

When this core gets on the field, there aren't a bunch of a bottom-of-the-barrel guys like last year. I'd say only Bethea and Davis would be considered "cheap."
Yes  
djm : 9/11/2019 10:21 am : link
.
Youth  
AcidTest : 9/11/2019 10:26 am : link
for me.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2019 10:28 am : link
It can be both, and most likely is both.

In the secondary, I think the bigger problem is the youth - not the talent. That unit will improve as the year goes on.

The linebackers definitely are a talent issue. We're just undermanned there. Tae Davis stinks. Ogletree seems to be more of a minus than a plus right now.

Connelly should be playing over Davis.

I also think Ballentine needs to be playing over Antonio Hamilton STAT.
Both.  
nyballa0891 : 9/11/2019 10:28 am : link
Both.
I think it's both  
JonC : 9/11/2019 10:28 am : link
The talent looks good, youth is a big factor.

But, they lack difference makers at OLB, and need upgrades at ILB and FS, at least.
The resources have been spent  
jcn56 : 9/11/2019 10:28 am : link
but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft.

The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth.

Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.
Both  
Torrag : 9/11/2019 10:32 am : link
Specifically:

Youth- DB's have talent, but will suffer growing pains.

Talent- pass rushers...prescott threw 30+ times and his jersey didn't need washing.

WR...if you're starting Cody Latimer you're not good or deep enough.
RE: The resources have been spent  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2019 10:34 am : link
In comment 14571483 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft.

The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth.

Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.


I don't really agree that the DL is the problem or that Gettleman has a blind spot there. The 2nd level is a far bigger issue. In a 3-4, you need your edge guys to be able to rush the passer. So far, ours have not demonstrated that ability.

Pretty sure we are going to like Lawrence a lot - and I think BJ Hill is a pretty good player too. If we get anything out of McIntosh that'll help.

I didn't think the DL was that bad on Sunday. The back 8 were a far bigger issue with the miscommunications, misplays blown coverages.
Or Scheme  
SgtDog : 9/11/2019 10:38 am : link
I think you have to also consider scheme. Our the Recliner D has to go. Its cute the way Bettcher rolled the Lazyboy Recliner onto the field for Dak to sit back in and enjoy the pocket. Recliner D prevents any QB pressure and results in perfect QB ratings and many losses. On the bright side the Recliner D also produces quality draft picks so we got that going for us.
They're playing a 3-4 defense with barely any talent at linebacker.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/11/2019 10:40 am : link
The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use...

- 4 first round picks (two with trades)
- 1 third round pick (with trade)
- 1 fourth round pick (with trade)
- 1 sixth round pick (with trade)
- decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon)
- largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack)

It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised.

The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).
RE: The resources have been spent  
christian : 9/11/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14571483 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft.

The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth.

Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.


I'm really looking for Carter to be that guy. In the lead up to both seasons lots of talk about his physical skills. But I just don't notice him.
Great Question  
Dnew15 : 9/11/2019 10:42 am : link
I think it's both.

My only concern is that the same problems just keeping happening over and over. How many times is defending the middle of the field going to keep popping up?

You would figure that someone would try to do something to stop it from happening. But, at least on the surface, nothing is happening.
2 of the first round picks  
chuckydee9 : 9/11/2019 10:42 am : link
played in their first ever game.. The others were not nearly 1st round value when the giants picked them up. Overall our investment in defense has been far less than the offense and is reflected in the overall talent..
Or maybe playing a dominant OL  
Vanzetti : 9/11/2019 10:43 am : link
With highly talented skill position players?
RE: They're playing a 3-4 defense with barely any talent at linebacker.  
christian : 9/11/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14571500 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use...

- 4 first round picks (two with trades)
- 1 third round pick (with trade)
- 1 fourth round pick (with trade)
- 1 sixth round pick (with trade)
- decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon)
- largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack)

It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised.

The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).


The Giants have 2 3rd round picks in Carter and Ximines, a top 5 paid LBer in Ogletree, a well paid UFA in Martin -- that's not going cheap or scraping by, right?
RE: RE: The resources have been spent  
JonC : 9/11/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14571502 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14571483 jcn56 said:


Quote:


but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft.

The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth.

Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.



I'm really looking for Carter to be that guy. In the lead up to both seasons lots of talk about his physical skills. But I just don't notice him.


Carter is long and tall, he struggles gaining leverage with his hands and freeing himself from blockers. He plays with hustle and hunger. But, it appears he's still in need of developed instincts for the position.

He's promising, but I'd still look for two OLBs. We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ...
Let's see this week  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/11/2019 10:46 am : link
Dallas has a very good OL and they have a good offense. I think they were better prepared, at home and with a new OC had some new wrinkles.

That said, if this staff does not create a sense of urgency and make corrections then I think we should all be very concerned. Many of the defensive players were drafted/signedin FA/traded for by DG and staff. How long are we to be patient? Where is the big jump in year two players? How about all the talk we heard about familiarity with the systems on both offense and defense from the coaches?

Big improvements hopefully and Shumur needs a better overall game plan with the offense and they have to convert third downs.
If it's a pure  
Pete in MD : 9/11/2019 10:54 am : link
lack of talent, the team is fucked for years to come. There is plenty of money and draft resources invested. Hopefully, the young guys can improve with experience. The "spare parts' will either have to play better or be replaced.
Dallas is good  
Dnew15 : 9/11/2019 10:55 am : link
and does have a great offensive line - but a lot of those passes were quick hitters.
It should be interesting to see how the defense responds to the Bills offense - which isn't nearly as good.

However, another consistent problem this defense has had over the past several years is containing mobile QBs. Allen can run.
RE: RE: RE: The resources have been spent  
christian : 9/11/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14571510 JonC said:
Quote:
We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ...


I haven't been excited by the AZ crew. Martin in particular is a disappointment. Part time player paid like a solid starter.
RE: If it's a pure  
christian : 9/11/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14571525 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
lack of talent, the team is fucked for years to come. There is plenty of money and draft resources invested. Hopefully, the young guys can improve with experience. The "spare parts' will either have to play better or be replaced.


Who would you consider a spare part on defense?
Talent, Youth is secondary  
Bruner4329 : 9/11/2019 11:01 am : link
We play a 3-4 without talent at LB and no pressure on the QBs. In the normal situation that puts additional pressure on the secondary. With the youth we have at CB that adds to the problem.

Also its one thing to play a 3-4 when you have LT and Banks as outside LBs but when you have little or no talent it won't work. We need an upgrade in the front 7 otherwise what you saw on Sunday will continue. The defense may never get off the field when we play Brady and NE.
Youth or talent?  
M.S. : 9/11/2019 11:02 am : link

Both.

Youth in the secondary and little if any talent at LBer / Edge.
As was already pointed out, it's probably a little of both. We're  
Ira : 9/11/2019 11:03 am : link
lacking a top pass rusher to go with who we have, so that's a talent issue. Our corners are very young and play a position where improvement often requires time, so that's a youth issue. Also, we've had a huge change in defensive personnel. So players need to get used to the system and to each other. We'll get a better idea of where we stand over the next few weeks.
I know the game has changed but does anyone remember the starting  
Spider56 : 9/11/2019 11:06 am : link
DBs on Parcells super bowl teams ? Hardly, but everyone remembers the LBs and most of the DL. ... Maybe Carter, XMan and Donnelly will grow quickly but they are not there now.
RE: As was already pointed out, it's probably a little of both. We're  
John In CO : 9/11/2019 11:14 am : link
In comment 14571540 Ira said:
Quote:
lacking a top pass rusher to go with who we have, so that's a talent issue. Our corners are very young and play a position where improvement often requires time, so that's a youth issue. Also, we've had a huge change in defensive personnel. So players need to get used to the system and to each other. We'll get a better idea of where we stand over the next few weeks.


This is what im thinking. Im going to give it a couple more weeks before declaring a total disaster. Almost half of the players on that list are in their first year with the team; a few more are in their 2nd year. We also have a new secondary coach. And Dallas at Dallas with a new OC is a pretty solid test for week 1. Hopefully we can see some progress week to week.
RE: RE: If it's a pure  
Dnew15 : 9/11/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14571531 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14571525 Pete in MD said:


Quote:


lack of talent, the team is fucked for years to come. There is plenty of money and draft resources invested. Hopefully, the young guys can improve with experience. The "spare parts' will either have to play better or be replaced.



Who would you consider a spare part on defense?


Hamilton, Bethea, Golden, Thomas, Martin...they all played some pretty significant minutes on Sunday
like some have said  
emcca005 : 9/11/2019 11:19 am : link
when you have prospective talent it can be hard to decipher which is the bigger issue. Right now I like to chalk it up more to youth because the talent hasn't learned how to play at this level or together yet.
Opposing quarterbacks.....  
thrunthrublue : 9/11/2019 11:20 am : link
Have enough time to wait for someone to get open, and catch up with their emails......no pass rush = last place.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The resources have been spent  
JonC : 9/11/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14571529 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14571510 JonC said:


Quote:


We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ...



I haven't been excited by the AZ crew. Martin in particular is a disappointment. Part time player paid like a solid starter.


They play soft.
Definitely Both  
Nine-Tails : 9/11/2019 11:28 am : link
There's a lot of youth all throughout the defense, which is why growing pains are expected. Couple that with a lot of new veteran, communication issues are not surprising, Then, there's the fact that there is a dominant defender on the defense.
I really don't like Butchers scheme in principle  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/11/2019 11:33 am : link
I would much prefer a zone blitz or soft cover 2 type D that forces the offense to matriculate down the field playing error free football, also complements a running O, if Sharmor even bothered to run with SB with a overpowering oline and excellent blocking WRs.

Fuck this high risk D, just terrible.
RE: I know the game has changed but does anyone remember the starting  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/11/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14571545 Spider56 said:
Quote:
DBs on Parcells super bowl teams ? Hardly, but everyone remembers the LBs and most of the DL. ... Maybe Carter, XMan and Donnelly will grow quickly but they are not there now.

Walls, Guyton, Jackson, Collins. That 90 team didn't have great pass rushers.
It's youth and lack of talent. The lack of talent is not only in the  
Giants61 : 9/11/2019 11:44 am : link
Skills for the positions, but in the talent of leadership. I don't think there is anyone on the defense that is a true leader to set an example for the young players.
RE: RE: The resources have been spent  
jcn56 : 9/11/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14571491 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14571483 jcn56 said:


Quote:


but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft.

The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth.

Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.



I don't really agree that the DL is the problem or that Gettleman has a blind spot there. The 2nd level is a far bigger issue. In a 3-4, you need your edge guys to be able to rush the passer. So far, ours have not demonstrated that ability.

Pretty sure we are going to like Lawrence a lot - and I think BJ Hill is a pretty good player too. If we get anything out of McIntosh that'll help.

I didn't think the DL was that bad on Sunday. The back 8 were a far bigger issue with the miscommunications, misplays blown coverages.


I'm stuck in 4-3 mode. I'm referring to OLBs, the ability to rush off the edge. The interior I think is OK. Lawrence may end up being a good get, but to me he still seems like a part for part replacement for Snacks. He might prove me wrong, but the pre-draft analysis seemed to point in that direction.

Meanwhile, the team is relying on Martin, Golden, Ximines, Carter to generate something along the lines of pass rush, and I think they're going to be disappointed. Yes, Dallas has a very good OL. So does Philly. If we can expect this core to disappear for the 4 games a year against them, then it's going to be a long season.
Both talent and youth  
k-five : 9/11/2019 11:53 am : link
The d-line is ok but there is no real pass rusher. Generally, that is ok in a 34 defense but with no pass rushing linebackers it becomes a problem. The linebackers themselves are subpar; which in a 34 defense is a disaster. The d-backs may eventually develop. When you dump 5 former All Pros, not pro bowlers, but All Pros, any defense will take a hit.

A painful reminder of the "trade" of Damon Harrison to the Lions.  
Reese's Pieces : 9/11/2019 12:03 pm : link
Harrison made most of the top 10 defensive tackle rankings.

If you want something more concrete, the Lions gave up an average of 144.6 rushing yards in their first seven games before Harrison, and 83.2 in their final nine games with Harrison.

Keep Harrison as your run-stuffing but little pass rush DT and instead of burning a first round pick on a prospect who is also good run, no rush you draft a pass rusher instead.

And we don't even know if Lawrence will be a great run stopper.

A real head-scratcher.
RE: They're playing a 3-4 defense with barely any talent at linebacker.  
Dinger : 9/11/2019 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14571500 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use...

- 4 first round picks (two with trades)
- 1 third round pick (with trade)
- 1 fourth round pick (with trade)
- 1 sixth round pick (with trade)
- decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon)
- largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack)

It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised.

The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).


I like your analysis of what it takes to get a linebacker corp. I'm in the camp of hoping ?DG got us a Keuchly with the Connely pick, but thats more of a long shot than Lotto. Would love to have at least one aboive average LB....
RE: A painful reminder of the  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/11/2019 12:09 pm : link
In comment 14571631 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
Harrison made most of the top 10 defensive tackle rankings.

If you want something more concrete, the Lions gave up an average of 144.6 rushing yards in their first seven games before Harrison, and 83.2 in their final nine games with Harrison.

Keep Harrison as your run-stuffing but little pass rush DT and instead of burning a first round pick on a prospect who is also good run, no rush you draft a pass rusher instead.

And we don't even know if Lawrence will be a great run stopper.

A real head-scratcher.


He was older, wanted a new contract and has a creaky knee. So they got what the could for him. If you want to debate the draft pick that seems fine but not so sure Snacks was a reliable building block with the new regime.
Both ...  
Beer Man : 9/11/2019 12:12 pm : link
Certainly, there is young talent that looked lost last week. And the team is greatly lacking talent at ER and LB.

I would also add that D has a number of new faces playing together for the first time.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2019 12:21 pm : link
The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years.

There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year.

So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors.

We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line.

The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.

Dallas attempted 30 rushes and barely even averaged 3 yards a clip.

The back 7/8 were just a complete discombobulated mess and we had no pass rush. That's where our real issues are.
I thought before the Dallas game that the two tough spots I thought  
Dinger : 9/11/2019 12:22 pm : link
The Giants had were the OL gelling and the Defenses inexperience. Well I was pleasantly surprised at the progress in our OL and the Defense was WAY worse than I expected. Its been pointed out here multiple times, but there isn't a clear leader on defense. The talent seems to be there with Baker, Lawrence, and Jenkins but with other high picks or acquistions the jury's still out or about to convict. I don't think the Rams trade Ogletree and the Browns Peppers, Both 1st round picks(?) if they were game changers, so the best you can expect is league average i guess? I am hoping some of the mid round guys can pan out, i.e.; Tomlinson, Hill, Carter, Ximines, BEal and Love. If EITHER of Connelly or Balentine or McIntosh become a decent contributor to the defense we should consider ourselves luck
RE: RE: I know the game has changed but does anyone remember the starting  
Now Mike in MD : 9/11/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14571595 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14571545 Spider56 said:


Quote:


DBs on Parcells super bowl teams ? Hardly, but everyone remembers the LBs and most of the DL. ... Maybe Carter, XMan and Donnelly will grow quickly but they are not there now.


Walls, Guyton, Jackson, Collins. That 90 team didn't have great pass rushers.


And Haynes in 1986. Another very good CB
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The resources have been spent  
christian : 9/11/2019 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14571576 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14571529 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14571510 JonC said:


Quote:


We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ...



I haven't been excited by the AZ crew. Martin in particular is a disappointment. Part time player paid like a solid starter.



They play soft.


I'm scared of that -- and if that's an indication/expectation from this system.

The Giants have Bethea, Golden, Martin, and Pierre at least in theory to help with translation and comfort in the system, and everyone looks lost.
RE: They're playing a 3-4 defense with barely any talent at linebacker.  
peteschweaty : 9/11/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14571500 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use...

- 4 first round picks (two with trades)
- 1 third round pick (with trade)
- 1 fourth round pick (with trade)
- 1 sixth round pick (with trade)
- decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon)
- largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack)

It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised.

The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).


amen to this...spot on.
RE: .  
Reese's Pieces : 9/11/2019 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14571669 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years.

There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year.

So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors.

We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line.

The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.



Lord, that's just the kind of thinking that gave us this defense. Harrison is 30. Not 35. A few good years left.

Harrison is acknowledged by almost everyone as a premier run stopper. If you like PFF, he was third best defensive tackle against the run according to PFF. Athlon: Seventh best DT overall.

It's a law in the NFL that the better players in the league make more money. But the object of the game is to win games, not field the cheapest team.

Harrison cost almost twice as much against the cap. So what? We're not in any cap difficulty. If we were we renegotiate a contract to tide us over until next year when Eli comes off and the league probably adds another adds another 10 million to the cap.

Harrison slowing down, Lawrence moving up. It's more likely that Lawrence will be a bust than that he will be as good as Snacks.

I'm all in favor of replacing older, more expensive players with younger, cheaper players. Just get the replacement first, then cut the older player.
The point is to build a contender....not just to win games. Snacks  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/11/2019 2:06 pm : link
is going to be 31 next year with balky knees. Why wouldn't we trade him? Lots of fans are pissed we aren't competing this year and would love to throw a bunch of band aids so we could win 9 games at the expense of the future.

The Jags salary cap is fucked so they are going to have to let Yannick walk more than likely. Don't you want to be at least players for him? A guy that can buoy the pass rush when we actually are contending.
RE: RE: RE: I know the game has changed but does anyone remember the starting  
Greg from LI : 9/11/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14571683 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
And Haynes in 1986. Another very good CB


Haynes was a Bronco by 1986. The starting secondary that year was Patterson and Williams at CB, Kinard at FS, Hill at SS. Collins was the nickelback, Herb Welch started the Super Bowl in place of the injured Kinard.
From where I sat, it sure appeared  
JonC : 9/11/2019 2:29 pm : link
Snacks was deemed a locker room lawyer they didn't young players to emulate, and he has a problematic knee.

If you're trying to get lean, he goes.
RE: .  
bigbluehoya : 9/11/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14571669 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years.

There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year.

So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors.

We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line.

The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.

Dallas attempted 30 rushes and barely even averaged 3 yards a clip.

The back 7/8 were just a complete discombobulated mess and we had no pass rush. That's where our real issues are.


I don't have much doubt that Lawrence will be a solid member of a run-stopping OL unit. I'm still concerned that he may be quiet, or worse, off the field on passing downs. And if that's the case, a late-teens 1st rounder could have been used better.

IMO, the success or failure of that draft pick hinges on whether he can be something in the pass rush.
...  
christian : 9/11/2019 3:07 pm : link
Moving on from Snacks makes sense if you're completely committed to a reset, which defensively Gettleman has done.

What's an interesting debate is the Giants have 60M dollars of defense on the field, out of a 190M cap.

Gettleman has essentially bought draft picks in exchange for eating cash. He did it with JPP, he essentially did it for 2/3 of Beckham trade.

Those draft picks have to turn out -- that's the bottomline.
If the young secondary  
darren in pdx : 9/11/2019 3:10 pm : link
players take their lumps and develop throughout this year, they’re set up nicely to focus on talent that excels at pass rushing and bolstering the LB crew for next season Having Lawrence now makes that easier too. There’s still a lot of work to be done but I still think its on the right track..the young players just have to pan out as NFL talent.
Also a lot of the players on the team  
darren in pdx : 9/11/2019 3:17 pm : link
are stopgaps or will be moved to depth when they get better talent. It’s a painful process when they’ve already been losing for so long now.
RE: Also a lot of the players on the team  
christian : 9/11/2019 3:26 pm : link
In comment 14571914 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
are stopgaps or will be moved to depth when they get better talent. It’s a painful process when they’ve already been losing for so long now.


Not sure if I agree with that -- I'd argue Bethea and Davis are stop gaps.

Everyone else was acquired through a high draft pick, trade, or large contract.

Who else is a stop gap in your mind?
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2019 3:57 pm : link
In comment 14571798 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
In comment 14571669 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years.

There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year.

So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors.

We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line.

The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.





Lord, that's just the kind of thinking that gave us this defense. Harrison is 30. Not 35. A few good years left.

Harrison is acknowledged by almost everyone as a premier run stopper. If you like PFF, he was third best defensive tackle against the run according to PFF. Athlon: Seventh best DT overall.

It's a law in the NFL that the better players in the league make more money. But the object of the game is to win games, not field the cheapest team.

Harrison cost almost twice as much against the cap. So what? We're not in any cap difficulty. If we were we renegotiate a contract to tide us over until next year when Eli comes off and the league probably adds another adds another 10 million to the cap.

Harrison slowing down, Lawrence moving up. It's more likely that Lawrence will be a bust than that he will be as good as Snacks.

I'm all in favor of replacing older, more expensive players with younger, cheaper players. Just get the replacement first, then cut the older player.


Where exactly were we missing this two down run stuffer on Sunday when we allowed just 89 rush yards total on 30 attempts?

I have no idea why we're lamenting the loss of Harrison on this thread when he'd have done quite literally zero to fix the two most glaring issues we had against Dallas.

1. No pass rush
2. Blown coverages and miscommunications

Beyond that, see JonC's post - he obviously wasn't looked at as someone they wanted to move forward with in this locker room.

Finally... the immortal Lions defense that he's supposedly impacting so much just had a gigantic meltdown against the fucking Cardinals in the 4th quarter on Sunday and wound up in a tie against a QB in his first NFL game and a team that most people have winning 4 games at most.

Harrison had 1 tackle. That's it.

So, please... enlighten me as to why THIS is the problem here when there are about 5 other much more obvious reasons as to why we struggled on Sunday.
RE: RE: RE: .  
gmenatlarge : 9/11/2019 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14571957 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14571798 Reese's Pieces said:


Quote:


In comment 14571669 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years.

There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year.

So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors.

We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line.

The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.





Lord, that's just the kind of thinking that gave us this defense. Harrison is 30. Not 35. A few good years left.

Harrison is acknowledged by almost everyone as a premier run stopper. If you like PFF, he was third best defensive tackle against the run according to PFF. Athlon: Seventh best DT overall.

It's a law in the NFL that the better players in the league make more money. But the object of the game is to win games, not field the cheapest team.

Harrison cost almost twice as much against the cap. So what? We're not in any cap difficulty. If we were we renegotiate a contract to tide us over until next year when Eli comes off and the league probably adds another adds another 10 million to the cap.

Harrison slowing down, Lawrence moving up. It's more likely that Lawrence will be a bust than that he will be as good as Snacks.

I'm all in favor of replacing older, more expensive players with younger, cheaper players. Just get the replacement first, then cut the older player.



Where exactly were we missing this two down run stuffer on Sunday when we allowed just 89 rush yards total on 30 attempts?

I have no idea why we're lamenting the loss of Harrison on this thread when he'd have done quite literally zero to fix the two most glaring issues we had against Dallas.

1. No pass rush
2. Blown coverages and miscommunications

Beyond that, see JonC's post - he obviously wasn't looked at as someone they wanted to move forward with in this locker room.

Finally... the immortal Lions defense that he's supposedly impacting so much just had a gigantic meltdown against the fucking Cardinals in the 4th quarter on Sunday and wound up in a tie against a QB in his first NFL game and a team that most people have winning 4 games at most.

Harrison had 1 tackle. That's it.

So, please... enlighten me as to why THIS is the problem here when there are about 5 other much more obvious reasons as to why we struggled on Sunday.


I think what a lot of people are saying about Snacks is that Lawrence is basically the same player where they could have drafted an ER at 17 and have at least some semblance of a pass rush. Also I would not be hanging my hat on having good run defense, Elliott was rusty and if Dallas wanted to or neeeded to run the ball they probably would have done so.
RE: RE: RE: .  
santacruzom : 9/11/2019 6:18 pm : link
In comment 14571957 arcarsenal said:
Quote:




Where exactly were we missing this two down run stuffer on Sunday when we allowed just 89 rush yards total on 30 attempts?

I have no idea why we're lamenting the loss of Harrison on this thread when he'd have done quite literally zero to fix the two most glaring issues we had against Dallas.

1. No pass rush
2. Blown coverages and miscommunications



Well, one could argue that if we did manage to keep Harrison, we could have then used the pick we used on Lawrence elsewhere... potentially even pass rush.

Not sure keeping Harrison would have been a great idea, BUT RP is right in that Lawrence is just as likely to be a bust as he is to develop into a player of Harrison's caliber.

It could be like how we lost Linval Joseph and have yet to get a replacement as effective as he was.

We seemed to assume that our d-line would be above-average -- some would say even great -- but it's far too premature to conclude that.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2019 7:38 pm : link
It's also far too premature to declare that they aren't/can't be good up front or start making assumptions about what Lawrence is or isn't. That goes both ways.

Dexter didn't even play a full complement of snaps on Sunday. They're trying to ease these guys in a bit.

And again - Harrison had 1 tackle on Sunday and he was part of a defense that had a total meltdown against one of the worst teams in football with a rookie QB. He's an aging player who is more costly and was apparently a personality that wasn't wanted in the lockerroom anymore. He's gone - for several reasons. We need to get over it and move on. I don't think Gettleman saw this defense turning entirely around in one swoop. We have a lot of new, young personnel and haven't been running a 3-4 very long.

It takes time.

Can we let the guy play more than one football game before we assume he's not as good as Harrison was or just cap his ceiling entirely and assume he's a 2-down player for his career?

We need edge rush help... if we took an ER @ 17 rather than Lawrence, I can easily play the "well, he could just have easily been a bust..." game too.

Most rookies require just a little time and patience to develop. We're not going to get instant results with every one of these players.

Unless you guys see Harrison as part of a long-term solution, he was going to need to be replaced anyway. I'm not sure why it's an issue that they did it now rather than later.

Nothing Harrison does would have helped us on Sunday. We didn't struggle against the run. We struggled everywhere else. So, unless mystery pass rusher X was going to have such a major impact that it would have changed the outcome of the game entirely, people would be complaining about the outcome anyway.
...  
christian : 9/11/2019 7:39 pm : link
There's been an awful lot of presumption on what the future will hold for the players who've left and the players acquired.

I believe Snacks was a jerk, I also believe there's no guarantee Lawrence will be as good of a player over the next 2 years. And there's no guarantee Snacks is going to be a diminished player. He had a stretch where his snaps were limited, but the notion he's damaged is a little much, no?
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2019 7:52 pm : link
The Cardinals rushed for 112 yards on 23 attempts... what is essentially 5 yards a clip against the Lions Sunday.

It's just strange to me that we're now lamenting the loss of Damon Harrison like that's the reason the Giants are struggling when the Giants defense actually performed better against the run in Week 1 than the Lions did - against a superior rushing team, no less.

And spare me the "Zeke was rusty" stuff. He was working out all summer, he knows their offense and Barkley didn't play a single snap this summer and had no trouble breaking off chunks at a time when he had the ball.

The focus here is just entirely on the wrong part of the defense. This isn't where we had major problems on Sunday. It was the 2 levels behind it.

Lawrence is nearly 10 years younger than Harrison and is cost controlled.

Detroit is so sold on Harrison holding up long-term that they gave him a whopping one year contract. He's a UFA after this season. Maybe we can bring him back if you guys want him so badly! :)
our front three  
bc4life : 9/11/2019 7:53 pm : link
are going to be good for along time.

big issue was the pass rush, decent but young and inexperienced talent. think Skipper will help
...  
christian : 9/11/2019 8:35 pm : link
I'm not worried about Harrison. Lawrence is afirst round, talented guy. He should be a better player.

Frankly, he better be better. All of the high picks and free agents and acquisitions should be better.
It sucks that this team has sucked for so long  
djm : 9/11/2019 9:03 pm : link
Because we wouldn’t be nearly as miserable and weary if this rebuild, and I use that word cautiously as there’s really no such thing anymore, was taking place 5-6 years ago. Also wouldn’t hurt to know for certain that this plan or rebuild or whatever the hell you want to call it was in fact definitely going to lead to sustained excellence down the road. We don’t just know that....and we’ve been burned before. With that said, I do think the giants performed their due diligence these last two years and avoided taking any shortcuts.

We don’t just know that  
djm : 9/11/2019 9:05 pm : link
Should read as we just don’t know that...sorry
I like the young potential  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 9:20 pm : link
- Hill (3rd)
- Tomlinson (2nd, Reese)
- Lawrence (1st)
- Carter (3rd)
- Baker (1st)
- Ballentine
- Love
- Connoly
- X-Man

but all it is at this point is potential. None of these guys have shown all that much yet. Of course the rooks haven't really had a chance.

Anyone not on this list I think isn't part of the eventual solution....I may have missed a few though..
RE: I like the young potential  
christian : 9/11/2019 10:42 pm : link
In comment 14572185 ron mexico said:
Quote:
- Hill (3rd)
- Tomlinson (2nd, Reese)
- Lawrence (1st)
- Carter (3rd)
- Baker (1st)
- Ballentine
- Love
- Connoly
- X-Man

but all it is at this point is potential. None of these guys have shown all that much yet. Of course the rooks haven't really had a chance.

Anyone not on this list I think isn't part of the eventual solution....I may have missed a few though..


I really like Haley too, he was a really nice find.

I look at the resources expended on a lot of the guys on the defense and I'd really expect this group to turn it around.

There's quite a bit of chatter on Gettleman inheriting an awful roster and how much work there was to do. I think he's done it.

He turned JPP into Hill, OBJ into Peppers, Ximines, and Lawrence. Eli Apple and Snacks helped move up for Baker.

The defense is chalk full of young high picks.
Isn't the idea of bringing in experience..  
Racer : 9/12/2019 9:58 am : link
..during a roster tear-down like this that veterans need minimal practice time to execute on Sunday, and gives more reps to the young guys who will eventually drive the turnaround?

A reaction to the constant pissing and moaning that the ARI guys aren't playing like all-pros on Sunday.
RE: Isn't the idea of bringing in experience..  
gmenatlarge : 9/12/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14572433 Racer said:
Quote:
..during a roster tear-down like this that veterans need minimal practice time to execute on Sunday, and gives more reps to the young guys who will eventually drive the turnaround?

A reaction to the constant pissing and moaning that the ARI guys aren't playing like all-pros on Sunday.


All-pros??? How about just competent pros, that would be nice, so far these guys have shown zero...
RE: Isn't the idea of bringing in experience..  
christian : 9/12/2019 10:17 am : link
In comment 14572433 Racer said:
Quote:
..during a roster tear-down like this that veterans need minimal practice time to execute on Sunday, and gives more reps to the young guys who will eventually drive the turnaround?

A reaction to the constant pissing and moaning that the ARI guys aren't playing like all-pros on Sunday.


- what evidence is there the ex-AZ players are taking fewer reps?
- what evidence is there the ex-AZ players are executing on Sunday?
- who has ever expected the ex-AZ players to perform at an All Pro level?
RE: RE: Isn't the idea of bringing in experience..  
Racer : 9/12/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14572464 christian said:
Quote:

- what evidence is there the ex-AZ players are taking fewer reps?
- what evidence is there the ex-AZ players are executing on Sunday?
- who has ever expected the ex-AZ players to perform at an All Pro level?


Do I need specific evidence to offer a possible explanation for why there are maybe a few too many ex-Bettcher guys on the 53? I hear that's why you bring in vets in these situations from more than one guy that coached in the league (Kirwan, Paul Alexander, Polian, C.Simms, Jeremiah, iirc).

The level of pissing and moaning is escalated in the (over)reaction to last Sunday; overall going back to '18 they are arguably better than what they replaced and all are solid locker room guys. All-pro reference is what we call sarcasm (lost on many, I understand).
They're arguably better than what they replaced?  
jcn56 : 9/12/2019 11:41 am : link
If you're measuring in locker room presence, sure. Wins? Not so much.
The idea that the Giants front office are these oracle's of locker  
NoGainDayne : 9/12/2019 11:47 am : link
room chemistry is on it's face something that clearly many people want to be true more than any basis in fact.

I'm not saying the converse is true. But this idea that the turnover means we've changed the culture or that the cultural problems were on the field vs. in the front office there isn't evidence of. In fact speaking on a general basis these problems much more often start at the top than the bottom. The way people on this site talk about it reeks of desperation for something to be true as opposed to a fair assessment of truth.

It doesn't mean our young players especially won't grow together and show signs of this culture improvement but people talk about it as if it's already happened. We were outclassed on Sunday. We didn't see a hungry team playing a above their level we saw a sloppy team. You can tell me all you want that we improved the culture but until that shows at all on the field it is annoying to hear people continue to talk about it.
Hmm...the guy whose opinion on NYG I hold in the highest regard...  
Racer : 9/12/2019 12:03 pm : link
..said of one of them:

"Kareem Martin finished the season strong. The plus-locker room presence struggled when his playing time was high, but as he got put into a more rotational role, he stood out. Martin recorded 5 tackles and 1 TFL. He was really stout against the run"

Sorry NGD, he's not fighting my battles for me before you get started. I listen to the guys who clearly know, in the hopes of building the knowledge base.
Yeah that's kind of my point not questioning Sy  
NoGainDayne : 9/12/2019 12:54 pm : link
but the source is clearly the team. I've also seen the team tell me year after year that Flowers turned over a new leaf and was doing all the right things only to be a shit show on the field.

I'm questioning the validity of the teams ability to scout itself or give accurate information on the state of the team. Or even have any idea at this point how to build a culture that wins. Why should we are what the team thinks of Kareem Martin if it doesn't translate to success on the field? The D sucked last year. Looks like it's going to suck this year with or without him.

Flowers 2018 Puff Piece

Flowers 2017 Puff Piece

I think you really missed my point too. If the on field results are there, hey, puff piece away. Let's glorify everyone they want, I don't care.

This glorification of certain players over others based seemingly on the whims of an organization that has been bad is irritating.

Results build better culture than arbitrary declarations of who is good or bad culturally from a losing organization. We switched out Martin for Kennard. It's just a bad move which like many people want to justify through this ethereal concept we've seen no evidence of existing.

RE: RE: RE: Isn't the idea of bringing in experience..  
christian : 9/12/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14572612 Racer said:
Quote:
In comment 14572464 christian said:


Quote:



- what evidence is there the ex-AZ players are taking fewer reps?
- what evidence is there the ex-AZ players are executing on Sunday?
- who has ever expected the ex-AZ players to perform at an All Pro level?



Do I need specific evidence to offer a possible explanation for why there are maybe a few too many ex-Bettcher guys on the 53? I hear that's why you bring in vets in these situations from more than one guy that coached in the league (Kirwan, Paul Alexander, Polian, C.Simms, Jeremiah, iirc).

The level of pissing and moaning is escalated in the (over)reaction to last Sunday; overall going back to '18 they are arguably better than what they replaced and all are solid locker room guys. All-pro reference is what we call sarcasm (lost on many, I understand).


I think you are conflating pissing and moaning with discussion. I don't see much piss or moan.

The ultimate question is whether it's working.

Are players picking up the system more quickly with the help of the ex-AZ ? Are the ex-AZ players operating without much confusion in the system? Are the ex-AZ players playing well?
I think that aside from young players making mistakes the  
Jersey55 : 9/12/2019 4:46 pm : link
problem with the secondary is a complete lack of pass rush and that will kill any secondary...
---  
Peppers : 9/12/2019 6:54 pm : link
a)Youth
b)Talent
c)Coaching
d)All of the Above


D
I was addressing the complaints about the ex-Bettcher guys on the  
Racer : 9/12/2019 6:58 pm : link
roster, both in this thread and many others. As for the OP, I don't think I personally have enough to go on going into week 2.

As for locker room culture, some people believe in it, some people think its fluff; something you see in the rear view mirror after stringing together wins.

Vets who are good in the locker room are a settle when you can't put a younger player in the same spot, I will grant you, but that doesn't mean the concept is something to hold against the organization at this stage of the process.

All of these questions in the theme of "is this true?" "how do you know?". Maybe we don't get our information from the same sources. I feel comfortable enough that when I listen to and read enough league veterans say the same things over and over for years, there's probably a trace of validity. When I see the drive-bys about something that contradicts those things, I'm inclined to push back, and being accused of being an apologist is pretty much meeting my expectations.
...  
christian : 9/12/2019 7:18 pm : link
The esoteric question of culture and improved locker room aren't observable, hopefully if it's important it's better.

What I see on the field is 1) a disorganized secondary with lots of looking around and pointing including by Bethea 2) Kareem Martin was demoted to being a part time player last year after signing a nice contract 3) Golden was a non-factor 4) Pierre was a non-factor.

If the point is a smart, prepared, effective defense -- that definitely wasn't the outcome on Sunday.
Youth, Talent and  
mittenedman : 9/12/2019 7:45 pm : link
missing the 3rd Element - Coaching

I rewatched the game - nobody knew where to line up. Bettcher's in year 2 but he's got a ton of new players and they looked clueless.
I don't get how Lawrence is being used (3T), he is an obvious NT. he seemed unsure which side to go with Hill going Strong/Weak and they never got set properly.
Also the LBs were late lining up and obviously the secondary was a mess.

It all starts with alignment, if you get that wrong everything else fails. They simply weren't ready to play a game. Bettcher has a unique scheme and a lot of new position coaches and he needs to get it right soon. This is a big job for him.
Lawrence  
mittenedman : 9/12/2019 7:48 pm : link
was better than I initially thought too - he was pushing people backwards. He looks impossible to block with 1 guy. But he is a pure NT and there is nothing wrong with that.
...  
christian : 9/12/2019 8:05 pm : link
Absolutely coaching is a probably the most important factor, can overcome plenty of flaws in the roster, and bad coaching can bury a talented roster.

It's early, no opinion formed at all. But if Bettcher can't get this group to perform, I'd like to see someone else get a crack.

What I see is a defense with plenty of resources against it. Lots of top 100 picks, 2 high profile players via trade, and a couple of nicely paid vets.

I don't buy the notion it's a rag tag bunch that should require more significant investment. Not saying it won't, but it shouldn't.
Klaatu and I would say  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2019 8:15 pm : link
Please go get an impact linebacker with wheels.

EVERYBODY will play better on defense...

RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/12/2019 8:21 pm : link
In comment 14573315 christian said:
Quote:
Absolutely coaching is a probably the most important factor, can overcome plenty of flaws in the roster, and bad coaching can bury a talented roster.

It's early, no opinion formed at all. But if Bettcher can't get this group to perform, I'd like to see someone else get a crack.

What I see is a defense with plenty of resources against it. Lots of top 100 picks, 2 high profile players via trade, and a couple of nicely paid vets.

I don't buy the notion it's a rag tag bunch that should require more significant investment. Not saying it won't, but it shouldn't.


I think if we are seeing the same shit in the second half of the season it will be time to move on.
The most imporant  
The72nd_stern : 9/13/2019 12:58 am : link
Position in a 3-4 is OLB. we simply dont have the level of talent we need there. that causes no pass rush. leading to very misunderstood secondary performance. (other note is we had never seen the kellen moore offense before hard to pass a test without knowing whats even on it.
if you really want to knowhow inexperience our secondary  
Jersey55 : 9/14/2019 4:29 pm : link
is just rewatch how easy it was for an older version of Jason Witten to get wide open for a TD, we have a ton of work to do with these young guys....
I vote for coaching  
PatersonPlank : 9/14/2019 8:09 pm : link
I'm not impressed at all by Bettcher just always seems to be outcoached
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