Defense - Youth or Talent Issue?

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for me.

It can be both, and most likely is both.

In the secondary, I think the bigger problem is the youth - not the talent. That unit will improve as the year goes on.

The linebackers definitely are a talent issue. We're just undermanned there. Tae Davis stinks. Ogletree seems to be more of a minus than a plus right now.

Connelly should be playing over Davis.

I also think Ballentine needs to be playing over Antonio Hamilton STAT.

Both.

The talent looks good, youth is a big factor.

But, they lack difference makers at OLB, and need upgrades at ILB and FS, at least.

but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft.

The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth.

Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.

Specifically:

Youth- DB's have talent, but will suffer growing pains.

Talent- pass rushers...prescott threw 30+ times and his jersey didn't need washing.

WR...if you're starting Cody Latimer you're not good or deep enough.

In comment 14571483 jcn56 said:

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but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft. The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth. Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.

I don't really agree that the DL is the problem or that Gettleman has a blind spot there. The 2nd level is a far bigger issue. In a 3-4, you need your edge guys to be able to rush the passer. So far, ours have not demonstrated that ability.

Pretty sure we are going to like Lawrence a lot - and I think BJ Hill is a pretty good player too. If we get anything out of McIntosh that'll help.

I didn't think the DL was that bad on Sunday. The back 8 were a far bigger issue with the miscommunications, misplays blown coverages.

I think you have to also consider scheme. Our the Recliner D has to go. Its cute the way Bettcher rolled the Lazyboy Recliner onto the field for Dak to sit back in and enjoy the pocket. Recliner D prevents any QB pressure and results in perfect QB ratings and many losses. On the bright side the Recliner D also produces quality draft picks so we got that going for us.

The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use...

- 4 first round picks (two with trades)
- 1 third round pick (with trade)
- 1 fourth round pick (with trade)
- 1 sixth round pick (with trade)
- decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon)
- largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack)

It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised.

The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).

In comment 14571483 jcn56 said:

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but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft. The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth. Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL.

I'm really looking for Carter to be that guy. In the lead up to both seasons lots of talk about his physical skills. But I just don't notice him.

I think it's both.

My only concern is that the same problems just keeping happening over and over. How many times is defending the middle of the field going to keep popping up?

You would figure that someone would try to do something to stop it from happening. But, at least on the surface, nothing is happening.

played in their first ever game.. The others were not nearly 1st round value when the giants picked them up. Overall our investment in defense has been far less than the offense and is reflected in the overall talent..

With highly talented skill position players?

In comment 14571500 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use... - 4 first round picks (two with trades) - 1 third round pick (with trade) - 1 fourth round pick (with trade) - 1 sixth round pick (with trade) - decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon) - largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack) It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised. The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).

The Giants have 2 3rd round picks in Carter and Ximines, a top 5 paid LBer in Ogletree, a well paid UFA in Martin -- that's not going cheap or scraping by, right?

In comment 14571502 christian said:

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In comment 14571483 jcn56 said: Quote: but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft. The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth. Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL. I'm really looking for Carter to be that guy. In the lead up to both seasons lots of talk about his physical skills. But I just don't notice him.

Carter is long and tall, he struggles gaining leverage with his hands and freeing himself from blockers. He plays with hustle and hunger. But, it appears he's still in need of developed instincts for the position.

He's promising, but I'd still look for two OLBs. We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ...

Dallas has a very good OL and they have a good offense. I think they were better prepared, at home and with a new OC had some new wrinkles.

That said, if this staff does not create a sense of urgency and make corrections then I think we should all be very concerned. Many of the defensive players were drafted/signedin FA/traded for by DG and staff. How long are we to be patient? Where is the big jump in year two players? How about all the talk we heard about familiarity with the systems on both offense and defense from the coaches?

Big improvements hopefully and Shumur needs a better overall game plan with the offense and they have to convert third downs.

lack of talent, the team is fucked for years to come. There is plenty of money and draft resources invested. Hopefully, the young guys can improve with experience. The "spare parts' will either have to play better or be replaced.

and does have a great offensive line - but a lot of those passes were quick hitters.
It should be interesting to see how the defense responds to the Bills offense - which isn't nearly as good.

However, another consistent problem this defense has had over the past several years is containing mobile QBs. Allen can run.

In comment 14571510 JonC said:

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We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ...

I haven't been excited by the AZ crew. Martin in particular is a disappointment. Part time player paid like a solid starter.

In comment 14571525 Pete in MD said:

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lack of talent, the team is fucked for years to come. There is plenty of money and draft resources invested. Hopefully, the young guys can improve with experience. The "spare parts' will either have to play better or be replaced.

Who would you consider a spare part on defense?

We play a 3-4 without talent at LB and no pressure on the QBs. In the normal situation that puts additional pressure on the secondary. With the youth we have at CB that adds to the problem.

Also its one thing to play a 3-4 when you have LT and Banks as outside LBs but when you have little or no talent it won't work. We need an upgrade in the front 7 otherwise what you saw on Sunday will continue. The defense may never get off the field when we play Brady and NE.

Both.

Youth in the secondary and little if any talent at LBer / Edge.

lacking a top pass rusher to go with who we have, so that's a talent issue. Our corners are very young and play a position where improvement often requires time, so that's a youth issue. Also, we've had a huge change in defensive personnel. So players need to get used to the system and to each other. We'll get a better idea of where we stand over the next few weeks.

DBs on Parcells super bowl teams ? Hardly, but everyone remembers the LBs and most of the DL. ... Maybe Carter, XMan and Donnelly will grow quickly but they are not there now.

In comment 14571540 Ira said:

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lacking a top pass rusher to go with who we have, so that's a talent issue. Our corners are very young and play a position where improvement often requires time, so that's a youth issue. Also, we've had a huge change in defensive personnel. So players need to get used to the system and to each other. We'll get a better idea of where we stand over the next few weeks.

This is what im thinking. Im going to give it a couple more weeks before declaring a total disaster. Almost half of the players on that list are in their first year with the team; a few more are in their 2nd year. We also have a new secondary coach. And Dallas at Dallas with a new OC is a pretty solid test for week 1. Hopefully we can see some progress week to week.

In comment 14571531 christian said:

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In comment 14571525 Pete in MD said: Quote: lack of talent, the team is fucked for years to come. There is plenty of money and draft resources invested. Hopefully, the young guys can improve with experience. The "spare parts' will either have to play better or be replaced. Who would you consider a spare part on defense?

Hamilton, Bethea, Golden, Thomas, Martin...they all played some pretty significant minutes on Sunday

when you have prospective talent it can be hard to decipher which is the bigger issue. Right now I like to chalk it up more to youth because the talent hasn't learned how to play at this level or together yet.

Have enough time to wait for someone to get open, and catch up with their emails......no pass rush = last place.

In comment 14571529 christian said:

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In comment 14571510 JonC said: Quote: We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ... I haven't been excited by the AZ crew. Martin in particular is a disappointment. Part time player paid like a solid starter.

They play soft.

There's a lot of youth all throughout the defense, which is why growing pains are expected. Couple that with a lot of new veteran, communication issues are not surprising, Then, there's the fact that there is a dominant defender on the defense.

I would much prefer a zone blitz or soft cover 2 type D that forces the offense to matriculate down the field playing error free football, also complements a running O, if Sharmor even bothered to run with SB with a overpowering oline and excellent blocking WRs.

Fuck this high risk D, just terrible.

In comment 14571545 Spider56 said:

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DBs on Parcells super bowl teams ? Hardly, but everyone remembers the LBs and most of the DL. ... Maybe Carter, XMan and Donnelly will grow quickly but they are not there now.

Walls, Guyton, Jackson, Collins. That 90 team didn't have great pass rushers.

Skills for the positions, but in the talent of leadership. I don't think there is anyone on the defense that is a true leader to set an example for the young players.

In comment 14571491 arcarsenal said:

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In comment 14571483 jcn56 said: Quote: but remember, Reese had the same issue - it's not that he was underinvested on the OL, he just chose poorly, both in FA and the draft. The fact that there isn't anyone on the roster who you can point to and say 'this guy should be able to get us a few sacks this year' is a problem, and it's not just because of youth. Seems to me Gettleman has the same blind spot that Reese did, just on the DL instead of the OL. I don't really agree that the DL is the problem or that Gettleman has a blind spot there. The 2nd level is a far bigger issue. In a 3-4, you need your edge guys to be able to rush the passer. So far, ours have not demonstrated that ability. Pretty sure we are going to like Lawrence a lot - and I think BJ Hill is a pretty good player too. If we get anything out of McIntosh that'll help. I didn't think the DL was that bad on Sunday. The back 8 were a far bigger issue with the miscommunications, misplays blown coverages.

I'm stuck in 4-3 mode. I'm referring to OLBs, the ability to rush off the edge. The interior I think is OK. Lawrence may end up being a good get, but to me he still seems like a part for part replacement for Snacks. He might prove me wrong, but the pre-draft analysis seemed to point in that direction.

Meanwhile, the team is relying on Martin, Golden, Ximines, Carter to generate something along the lines of pass rush, and I think they're going to be disappointed. Yes, Dallas has a very good OL. So does Philly. If we can expect this core to disappear for the 4 games a year against them, then it's going to be a long season.

The d-line is ok but there is no real pass rusher. Generally, that is ok in a 34 defense but with no pass rushing linebackers it becomes a problem. The linebackers themselves are subpar; which in a 34 defense is a disaster. The d-backs may eventually develop. When you dump 5 former All Pros, not pro bowlers, but All Pros, any defense will take a hit.

Harrison made most of the top 10 defensive tackle rankings.

If you want something more concrete, the Lions gave up an average of 144.6 rushing yards in their first seven games before Harrison, and 83.2 in their final nine games with Harrison.

Keep Harrison as your run-stuffing but little pass rush DT and instead of burning a first round pick on a prospect who is also good run, no rush you draft a pass rusher instead.

And we don't even know if Lawrence will be a great run stopper.

A real head-scratcher.

In comment 14571500 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use... - 4 first round picks (two with trades) - 1 third round pick (with trade) - 1 fourth round pick (with trade) - 1 sixth round pick (with trade) - decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon) - largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack) It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised. The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).

I like your analysis of what it takes to get a linebacker corp. I'm in the camp of hoping ?DG got us a Keuchly with the Connely pick, but thats more of a long shot than Lotto. Would love to have at least one aboive average LB....

In comment 14571631 Reese's Pieces said:

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Harrison made most of the top 10 defensive tackle rankings. If you want something more concrete, the Lions gave up an average of 144.6 rushing yards in their first seven games before Harrison, and 83.2 in their final nine games with Harrison. Keep Harrison as your run-stuffing but little pass rush DT and instead of burning a first round pick on a prospect who is also good run, no rush you draft a pass rusher instead. And we don't even know if Lawrence will be a great run stopper. A real head-scratcher.

He was older, wanted a new contract and has a creaky knee. So they got what the could for him. If you want to debate the draft pick that seems fine but not so sure Snacks was a reliable building block with the new regime.

Certainly, there is young talent that looked lost last week. And the team is greatly lacking talent at ER and LB.

I would also add that D has a number of new faces playing together for the first time.

The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years.

There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year.

So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors.

We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line.

The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.

Dallas attempted 30 rushes and barely even averaged 3 yards a clip.

The back 7/8 were just a complete discombobulated mess and we had no pass rush. That's where our real issues are.

The Giants had were the OL gelling and the Defenses inexperience. Well I was pleasantly surprised at the progress in our OL and the Defense was WAY worse than I expected. Its been pointed out here multiple times, but there isn't a clear leader on defense. The talent seems to be there with Baker, Lawrence, and Jenkins but with other high picks or acquistions the jury's still out or about to convict. I don't think the Rams trade Ogletree and the Browns Peppers, Both 1st round picks(?) if they were game changers, so the best you can expect is league average i guess? I am hoping some of the mid round guys can pan out, i.e.; Tomlinson, Hill, Carter, Ximines, BEal and Love. If EITHER of Connelly or Balentine or McIntosh become a decent contributor to the defense we should consider ourselves luck

In comment 14571595 Coach Red Beaulieu said:

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In comment 14571545 Spider56 said: Quote: DBs on Parcells super bowl teams ? Hardly, but everyone remembers the LBs and most of the DL. ... Maybe Carter, XMan and Donnelly will grow quickly but they are not there now. Walls, Guyton, Jackson, Collins. That 90 team didn't have great pass rushers.

And Haynes in 1986. Another very good CB

In comment 14571576 JonC said:

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In comment 14571529 christian said: Quote: In comment 14571510 JonC said: Quote: We should be able to do it and knock off ordinary players like Pierre and Martin, etc. Nice that Bettcher thinks highly of them, but ... I haven't been excited by the AZ crew. Martin in particular is a disappointment. Part time player paid like a solid starter. They play soft.

I'm scared of that -- and if that's an indication/expectation from this system.

The Giants have Bethea, Golden, Martin, and Pierre at least in theory to help with translation and comfort in the system, and everyone looks lost.

In comment 14571500 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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The Bears have a great 3-4 defense. In order to procure their four talented linebackers, they had to use... - 4 first round picks (two with trades) - 1 third round pick (with trade) - 1 fourth round pick (with trade) - 1 sixth round pick (with trade) - decent sized free agent contract (Trevathon) - largest contract extension ever for edge rusher (Mack) It's going to take a lot of draft capital or free agency money to get the talent-level raised. The Baltimore Ravens didn't use high draft picks on their LB position. However, they have two first round picks starting at cornerback and perhaps the most expensive safety duo in the league (both free agents).

amen to this...spot on.

In comment 14571669 arcarsenal said:

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The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years. There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year. So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors. We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line. The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either.

Lord, that's just the kind of thinking that gave us this defense. Harrison is 30. Not 35. A few good years left.

Harrison is acknowledged by almost everyone as a premier run stopper. If you like PFF, he was third best defensive tackle against the run according to PFF. Athlon: Seventh best DT overall.

It's a law in the NFL that the better players in the league make more money. But the object of the game is to win games, not field the cheapest team.

Harrison cost almost twice as much against the cap. So what? We're not in any cap difficulty. If we were we renegotiate a contract to tide us over until next year when Eli comes off and the league probably adds another adds another 10 million to the cap.

Harrison slowing down, Lawrence moving up. It's more likely that Lawrence will be a bust than that he will be as good as Snacks.

I'm all in favor of replacing older, more expensive players with younger, cheaper players. Just get the replacement first, then cut the older player.

is going to be 31 next year with balky knees. Why wouldn't we trade him? Lots of fans are pissed we aren't competing this year and would love to throw a bunch of band aids so we could win 9 games at the expense of the future.

The Jags salary cap is fucked so they are going to have to let Yannick walk more than likely. Don't you want to be at least players for him? A guy that can buoy the pass rush when we actually are contending.

In comment 14571683 Now Mike in MD said:

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And Haynes in 1986. Another very good CB

Haynes was a Bronco by 1986. The starting secondary that year was Patterson and Williams at CB, Kinard at FS, Hill at SS. Collins was the nickelback, Herb Welch started the Super Bowl in place of the injured Kinard.

Snacks was deemed a locker room lawyer they didn't young players to emulate, and he has a problematic knee.

If you're trying to get lean, he goes.

In comment 14571669 arcarsenal said:

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The thing with Harrison/Lawrence is that one guy has already peaked and is in the descending portion of his career arc while Lawrence is a rookie that should ascend over the next few years. There's also the difference in cost. Lawrence costs half as much against the cap this year. So, we can't really look at it as part for part because of other external factors. We've got to give Dex a little time. More than one game. He's a humongous human being and he moves well. I think he's potentially more versatile than Harrison was and should turn out to be a nice addition to the line. The front isn't that worrisome for me - and it's not like we got totally gashed in the run game, either. Dallas attempted 30 rushes and barely even averaged 3 yards a clip. The back 7/8 were just a complete discombobulated mess and we had no pass rush. That's where our real issues are.

I don't have much doubt that Lawrence will be a solid member of a run-stopping OL unit. I'm still concerned that he may be quiet, or worse, off the field on passing downs. And if that's the case, a late-teens 1st rounder could have been used better.

IMO, the success or failure of that draft pick hinges on whether he can be something in the pass rush.