When Gettleman brought in Pat Shurmur there were a number of things he talked about wanting in a head coach and one of those was a CEO-like mentality.
It’s clear from Gettleman’s history here and in Carolina, he makes prudent business decisions and personal stuff is set aside for the “betterment of the franchise”.
I see Eli as the current (perhaps middling) manager, with a hungry, cheaper employee under him who excites the staff and can also give the Executives a longer rope.
We all know business is typically reviewed quarterly. So the question is, after the first quarter of the season, what record does Eli need to pull in order to be allowed to continue to manage this team? Can he be allowed to keep starting for this team at 1-3 or 0-4 after the quarterly performance review?
I have been a massive Eli supporter for years, maybe evan an apologist. But I just cannot see much point in Eli leading this team anymore with Daniel Jones here.
In my view, anything less than .500 after 4 games should warrant a demotion. If Eli can go at least 2-2, I roll with him and play the same game in Q2. Maybe it will light a fire in him.
It’s truly sad we are at this point, but at some point performance needs to be accountable the same at QB as it is for every position, especially when the job is not getting done and it makes more sense to pivot, for the sake of the future, with the young up and comer in the wings.
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Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs
There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long
And as a reminder we weren’t eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.
If we go down a similar path, they can’t wait that long.
You’re gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
Gives jones a little more time to mentally prepare for the next 6 weeks, gives eli a fair and final chance to win before pulling the plug on him , and doesn't allow the eli diehards to meltdown like last time .
This is assuming the giants are 2-4 or worse at that point which i think will happen . If they are 3-3 then it becomes more tricky
0-2 12% Playoffs
1-3 15%
2-4 9%
3-5 7%
So for me it any time we fall 2 games below 500. If we are only 1 game under, If we win the next we could be back at 500. I think this is fair. The only reason to start an OLD QB over 1 you drafted at 6 is that you have a reasonable opportunity to compete for the playoffs. Once you don't, experience for the kid trumps all. I am not sure Jones doesn't give us a better chance to win right now because he is a better fir for Shurmur's system.
Because the last thing we need is this guy getting hurt or boo'ed off the field after that Geno Smith bullshit.
And as a reminder we weren’t eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.
If we go down a similar path, they can’t wait that long.
You’re gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
We won't get to 2-9 without Jones being inserted. This is much different from 2017. Jones is not Davis Webb.
But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
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And cheers from bills fans in our home opener
And as a reminder we weren’t eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.
If we go down a similar path, they can’t wait that long.
You’re gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
We won't get to 2-9 without Jones being inserted. This is much different from 2017. Jones is not Davis Webb.
well then we agree. The Giants wont necessarily wait for mathematical elimination. It could work out that way if the D somehow magically turns it around, but not likely IMO.
But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
Extra time for Jones and the team to prepare mentally. Extra time for the coaches to modify the game plan which is likely substantially different than what they'd do with Eli.
Does it matter? If the point of playing Eli is to give the team the best chance to win (and that's just an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's farfetched), then doesn't the priority shift at some point to getting Jones live-action experience - in practice as well as in games - if the team is simply overmatched overall in spite of Eli's performance?
I guess it depends on whether or not they've already made up their minds about Eli's future beyond this season, because if they're definitely certain that they do not intend to re-sign Eli (barring some catastrophic scenario for Jones), then there has to be a point where Eli's performance is irrelevant if the team itself stinks.
I don't know if that point is at 1-3 or 0-4, but if that's where this team is at the quarter pole, the only justifiable reason I can think of to not make the switch would be because they've shifted their focus to finding the right time to ramp up Jones and insert him into the lineup, not because they need to reward Eli's performance on an otherwise awful team.
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In business you are reviewing results against expectations and holding accountable the people who are responsible for achieving those results. The only way the analogy works for football is if you agree that the W-L record is fully the responsibility of the QB. Most people do not subscribe to that.
What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.
A future HOF QB "exceeding all of his goals" generally translates to a reasonable record. At best Eli is performing on par with expectations.
So if your company is doing awful and your sales manager has already put in notice that he's leaving at the end of the quarter, do you start getting his replacement trained or continue to let him muddle along?
This wasn't to suggest Eli should still be playing if his stats are good. It was to point out that it was a bad analogy as the assessment isn't that simple. I didn't make any statements about whether Eli or Jones should be starting.
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but just to point it out, teams don't get extra practice after TNF games. They get that weekend off and resume a normal practice week on Monday.
But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
Extra time for Jones and the team to prepare mentally. Extra time for the coaches to modify the game plan which is likely substantially different than what they'd do with Eli.
Thats fair
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Does it matter? If the point of playing Eli is to give the team the best chance to win (and that's just an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's farfetched), then doesn't the priority shift at some point to getting Jones live-action experience - in practice as well as in games - if the team is simply overmatched overall in spite of Eli's performance?
I guess it depends on whether or not they've already made up their minds about Eli's future beyond this season, because if they're definitely certain that they do not intend to re-sign Eli (barring some catastrophic scenario for Jones), then there has to be a point where Eli's performance is irrelevant if the team itself stinks.
I don't know if that point is at 1-3 or 0-4, but if that's where this team is at the quarter pole, the only justifiable reason I can think of to not make the switch would be because they've shifted their focus to finding the right time to ramp up Jones and insert him into the lineup, not because they need to reward Eli's performance on an otherwise awful team.
This is actually a new angle that hasn't been discussed much in regards to Jones. Eli is playing for his job currently, but nobody knows if he's actually potentially auditioning for an extension or not to management. I know fans think it's a foregone conclusion that this is Eli's last season, and at this point I think it is, too. But you just never know.
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In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.
Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I haven’t seen it from him for some time. That’s concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.
I’m not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isn’t a big reason why we win games, what’s the point?
Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.
Just so we're clear, players at every other position besides K, P, and LS are able to get playing time and/or start games situationally without it causing any sort of reaction.
The reason why this only applies to Eli is because of the sensitivity that applies to QBs, especially a QB transition. Wouldn't you agree that once Jones takes the reins, the team should hope that he plays so well that he never gives them up until we have the same conversation 15 years from now? That's not the way it works at other positions, so it doesn't apply to the other players.
And you know that.
Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.
Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.
Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.
Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.
If we lose to the Bills at home and don't put up at least 24 points in doing so, you need to make the switch. The investment is in the offensive side of the ball. This with the caveat Shephard plays, which it looks like he probably will.
1- He took an intentional grounding penalty on a 3rd and 1 at the Dallas 35. This took us out of FG range and maybe cost the Giants 3 points in a 7-7 game. This play may have well have been a turnover.
2- On the same play he missed a wide open receiver for a 1st down that would have given the Giants a 1st and 10 at at least the Dallas 30 for what could be a TD Drive.
3- He used a TO trying to get Sterling Shepherd to move over a little bit in what went for about 7 seconds early on the 1st drive. The Giants would be short of TOs at the end of the first half stalling at the Dallas 44 yd line and being forced to go for a Hail Mary instead of being able to go for a FG attempt with about 10 more yards or more. This could have cost another additional 3 pts.
4- He missed Saquon Barkley for what would have been easy walk in TD and instead threw too early and hit him in the back, according to Sy review. This cost 7 pts.
5- He fumbled on a sack on 4th and 1 from the Dallas 7 where he hesitated and than ran (come on Eli) instead of taking a chance to throw down 28-10 or even throw and try and draw the pass interference call in the end zone. This could have cost 7 pts too.
That’s a lot of mistakes at critical times. Left a lot of points on the field.
He played poorly. We need to stop holding him to a different standard than everyone else. Who else would make 5 errors like that costing points and not be said that they played bad?
I have a bigger concern. What about this coaching staff? Year two should there not be a higher expectation?
If they don't win move on to Jones. They need to evaluate this staff and front office. I don't think it prudent to play to total elimination.
Does the front office and staff get next year to not press for the playoffs? Win or get Jones in as this will need to at least make a strong playoff push next year imo.
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his ability to produce points. Right now, IMV, we have to assume the swiss cheese D is going to struggle holding teams below 24 points. So pressure will grow for the O to keep up. While I would start Jones - would have started him G1 - you probably need to let six games play out to judge.
Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.
Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.
If we lose to the Bills at home and don't put up at least 24 points in doing so, you need to make the switch. The investment is in the offensive side of the ball. This with the caveat Shephard plays, which it looks like he probably will.
It's a tricky game. The Bills are very physical upfront on both sides. But we could get some points courtesy of Josh Allen's silver platter. So looking at the game in the full context, post-mortem, will be interesting...
All you have to do is go back to the preseason games and listen to the cheers when jones came into the game. contrary to popular belief on here, most giants fans are ready to move on from eli at this point. A few more losses and the media/fans are going to get even louder for jones to play . This isn't 2017. They have a viable QB in jones ready to step in who most fans want to see, and the years and years of losing have made the fans had enough
That would be troubling. You accept that from Coughlin as he was a proven and then SB coach. Shurmur, he has been in the league and his second go around should have a expectation of quick results. I am surprised that so many seem to think we should give this regime 3-4 years for playoff results.
You think Parcels, Coughlin, Belichick would be making all these excuses about young players in public?
In the meanwhile...Buffalo is next and lets see if they can get a Win.
play ball...
Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time
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About the coaching staff. Expect more Mara half measures after the season meaning the DC will be fired and maybe a few other defensive coaches. Another band aid on a severed artery.
That would be troubling. You accept that from Coughlin as he was a proven and then SB coach. Shurmur, he has been in the league and his second go around should have a expectation of quick results. I am surprised that so many seem to think we should give this regime 3-4 years for playoff results.
You think Parcels, Coughlin, Belichick would be making all these excuses about young players in public?
You give Shurmur 3-4 years because a revolving door of coaches and executives just begets more losing. It's a difficult balance, because failing fast is a sound strategy in general, but if you're changing out schemes and philosophies every couple of years, you're perpetually rebuilding to suit the next coach's system.
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In comment 14571953 arniefez said:
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About the coaching staff. Expect more Mara half measures after the season meaning the DC will be fired and maybe a few other defensive coaches. Another band aid on a severed artery.
That would be troubling. You accept that from Coughlin as he was a proven and then SB coach. Shurmur, he has been in the league and his second go around should have a expectation of quick results. I am surprised that so many seem to think we should give this regime 3-4 years for playoff results.
You think Parcels, Coughlin, Belichick would be making all these excuses about young players in public?
You give Shurmur 3-4 years because a revolving door of coaches and executives just begets more losing. It's a difficult balance, because failing fast is a sound strategy in general, but if you're changing out schemes and philosophies every couple of years, you're perpetually rebuilding to suit the next coach's system.
There is logic in what you say and I agree with a proven winning coach or a first time coach with a lot of upside. I just think with a 2nd time coach you ramp up the expectations. Sometimes I think it is fair to say not the best hand here but win anyway.
Nothing worse than waiting to fill all the holes on the roster and then you find out you don't have a big time coach. Then you end up like 80% of the league chasing titles for decades.
Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time
Careful now,dont want to upset the apologists. Though I agree with you
That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
This seems like the most logical. i dont think they Giants would put Jones in for the 1st time against those 2 teams. People keep saying Eli is not the reason we lost but he is definitely part of the reason. A 16 year vet should be making smart decisions but he is gun shy.
Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time
Being able to produce off-script plays is a very big deal. Expecting to build OLs to the same level of quality as Dallas, Philly, Saints, etc is very difficult. It's just not that easy, especially because the pipeline of ready-to-play OLs from college just isn't as good. So transitioning to a more mobile QB is the better solution.
1- He took an intentional grounding penalty on a 3rd and 1 at the Dallas 35. This took us out of FG range and maybe cost the Giants 3 points in a 7-7 game. This play may have well have been a turnover.
2- On the same play he missed a wide open receiver for a 1st down that would have given the Giants a 1st and 10 at at least the Dallas 30 for what could be a TD Drive.
3- He used a TO trying to get Sterling Shepherd to move over a little bit in what went for about 7 seconds early on the 1st drive. The Giants would be short of TOs at the end of the first half stalling at the Dallas 44 yd line and being forced to go for a Hail Mary instead of being able to go for a FG attempt with about 10 more yards or more. This could have cost another additional 3 pts.
4- He missed Saquon Barkley for what would have been easy walk in TD and instead threw too early and hit him in the back, according to Sy review. This cost 7 pts.
5- He fumbled on a sack on 4th and 1 from the Dallas 7 where he hesitated and than ran (come on Eli) instead of taking a chance to throw down 28-10 or even throw and try and draw the pass interference call in the end zone. This could have cost 7 pts too.
That’s a lot of mistakes at critical times. Left a lot of points on the field.
He played poorly. We need to stop holding him to a different standard than everyone else. Who else would make 5 errors like that costing points and not be said that they played bad?
and in theory its best if a rookie QB stews for a year. I know know bbi likes the excitement of a new shiny toy I know.
I have posted here repeatedly my opinion that Eli Manning has been finished for at least three years. Maybe that's right, maybe it's wrong.
My first item of sports memorabilia was a Charley Conerly button. I was twelve years old when YA Tittle was bleeding in the end zone. Fran Tarkenton made being a fan tolerable. And so on.
QBs get to the point where they don't lead the team to wins. With Manning, that point is long past.
Is he better than Conerly? Better than YA? Better than Tarkenton? Better than Simms?
What's the big deal with sitting him down? He's not your father, he's not your brother, he's not your son. He's a soon to be ex-pro football player, like all the rest of them, except he beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl, a fine achievement to remember.
It's time for Daniel Jones. If you are posting all this crap about how Eli FEELS, or how you FEEL about how Eli FEELS, get over it.
This is the National FOOTBALL league.
What if Jones does well?
Is that a better story?
The beauty is he doesn't even have to play better. You can say he was always going to need to learn the ropes and people will give them a pass.
Losing with Jones is not worse than losing with Eli.
So then the question of why not becomes really hard to answer.
Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time
Excellent post. I too would like DeAndre Hopkins.
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Play behind that line. Performing as well as he did, exposed for me just how flawed the narrative that all but exonerates Eli for the losing has been.
Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time
Excellent post. I too would like DeAndre Hopkins.
Dynamite drop-in from the alternate handle of fanofthejets.
I know you’re not saying that because you think Eli will rightfully hold off jones. I disagree. Even if Eli were to play well I think jones gets in if the giants show little to no chance of winning big games. If they are 3-5 thanks to the worst D ever, jones will play.
Even though we may not agree with it, I think that family run owner would be ok with things happening slower than a fan. Especially when they opportunity to write their own history.
They want the best story
1. Eli playing and winning the SuperBowl and riding into the sunset.
2. Eli handing the ball to Daniel Jones as the next grest QB in giants history and then Daniel Jones becomes the greatest QB of all time. (it would so graceful to have this in giants history)
3. Daniel Jones plays right away, sucks, and everyone yells to put Eli back in.
4. Everyone Boos Eli for sucking, he gets pulled, DJ goes in and saves the day
5. Lets see how it goes, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Let it ride and as soon as it makes the most sense for most of the fans and media, we will write the story the way we want as it unfolds.
Point is, there is no serious judging going on here, The Giants want to make a smooth transition at QB. That is the point of the season whether we like it or not. The quicker you accept it the easier it is to watch it unfold.
I personally think the Giants need work in a lot of places, and throwing Daniel in there quickly could potentially hurt him as much as help him. I am going to let it rides it course, he already got playing time in game one.
The only way as fan that would make upset if the Giants looked really good but Eli letting everyone down with play. Could we be better if Daniel was in, probably,but if cant rush the passer or cover wrs, it really does not matter.
to start against the Vikings or Pats ..
I really expected for Eli to bounce back this year
but you can't blame the Cowboy game on him .
Buffalo has a very good defense if we are 3-3 after
six games do you make the change ?
to start against the Vikings or Pats ..
I really expected for Eli to bounce back this year
but you can't blame the Cowboy game on him .
Buffalo has a very good defense if we are 3-3 after
six games do you make the change ?
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Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs
I know you’re not saying that because you think Eli will rightfully hold off jones. I disagree. Even if Eli were to play well I think jones gets in if the giants show little to no chance of winning big games. If they are 3-5 thanks to the worst D ever, jones will play.
I have posted here repeatedly my opinion that Eli Manning has been finished for at least three years. Maybe that's right, maybe it's wrong.
My first item of sports memorabilia was a Charley Conerly button. I was twelve years old when YA Tittle was bleeding in the end zone. Fran Tarkenton made being a fan tolerable. And so on.
QBs get to the point where they don't lead the team to wins. With Manning, that point is long past.
Is he better than Conerly? Better than YA? Better than Tarkenton? Better than Simms?
What's the big deal with sitting him down? He's not your father, he's not your brother, he's not your son. He's a soon to be ex-pro football player, like all the rest of them, except he beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl, a fine achievement to remember.
It's time for Daniel Jones. If you are posting all this crap about how Eli FEELS, or how you FEEL about how Eli FEELS, get over it.
This is the National FOOTBALL league.
+1.
Lets remember, we actually had a guy on here admit that he cried at his dinner table in front of his wife and children the week that Eli got benched 2 years ago.
I mean...