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Football is a business. Shurmur the CEO. Eli quarter review

GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2019 2:11 pm
When Gettleman brought in Pat Shurmur there were a number of things he talked about wanting in a head coach and one of those was a CEO-like mentality.

Itís clear from Gettlemanís history here and in Carolina, he makes prudent business decisions and personal stuff is set aside for the ďbetterment of the franchiseĒ.

I see Eli as the current (perhaps middling) manager, with a hungry, cheaper employee under him who excites the staff and can also give the Executives a longer rope.

We all know business is typically reviewed quarterly. So the question is, after the first quarter of the season, what record does Eli need to pull in order to be allowed to continue to manage this team? Can he be allowed to keep starting for this team at 1-3 or 0-4 after the quarterly performance review?

I have been a massive Eli supporter for years, maybe evan an apologist. But I just cannot see much point in Eli leading this team anymore with Daniel Jones here.

In my view, anything less than .500 after 4 games should warrant a demotion. If Eli can go at least 2-2, I roll with him and play the same game in Q2. Maybe it will light a fire in him.

Itís truly sad we are at this point, but at some point performance needs to be accountable the same at QB as it is for every position, especially when the job is not getting done and it makes more sense to pivot, for the sake of the future, with the young up and comer in the wings.

even if we go 2-2  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 2:13 pm : link
we are not beating Minny or the Pats
To stick with your point on performance  
Diver_Down : 9/11/2019 2:14 pm : link
what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
With all due respect....  
Britt in VA : 9/11/2019 2:16 pm : link
we've beaten this to death. Daniel Jones will play when he plays.

If we get to the midway point significantly under .500, you'll see him.
honestly  
giants#1 : 9/11/2019 2:19 pm : link
I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.

That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
RE: even if we go 2-2  
LC_21 : 9/11/2019 2:19 pm : link
In comment 14571815 ron mexico said:
Quote:
we are not beating Minny or the Pats


Im not suggesting we are capable of beating anyone at this point but Minny Home and Away are two very different teams ... all the 1-0 teams arent going to go 16-0 .. Packers will likely score a few more than 10 pts this wk - that over is actually looking pretty good :-D
RE: RE: even if we go 2-2  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14571825 LC_21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14571815 ron mexico said:


Quote:


we are not beating Minny or the Pats



Im not suggesting we are capable of beating anyone at this point but Minny Home and Away are two very different teams ... all the 1-0 teams arent going to go 16-0 .. Packers will likely score a few more than 10 pts this wk - that over is actually looking pretty good :-D


I've already taken Minny straight up.

They dont need no stinkin 2.5 points

Also, Atl looks terrible. Matt Ryan is dealing with what Eli had to deal with these past few years. Betthe house on the Eagles

The reason this decision is  
HoodieGelo : 9/11/2019 2:24 pm : link
so tough is because Eli is not playing bad. He's not playing well enough. He really is just a game-manager at this point. The problem is, we don't have a good enough defense to only have a "game-manager" under center. I love Eli, grew up with him and he'll always be my favorite Giant. But, if he doesn't light it up these next few games then there is no point keeping him as the starter. Unless it's obvious that he isn't the problem, I don't see how he keeps his job. We just have to pull off the band-aid at that point.

Another interesting tidbit that I think plays a pretty big part is his overall Win/Loss. I DO NOT want Eli having a W/L under .500 for his career. Granted, we know he has had shitty teams around him but for a while but it's just a bad look that does not reflect how vital he truly was to this franchise. That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm ok with Jones taking over the sooner rather than later.
did you guys watch the Texans/Saints game?  
GiantNatty : 9/11/2019 2:25 pm : link
where both quarterbacks played lights out down the stretch? Where they both put their teams on their backs in an effort to win the game?

Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.

In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.

Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).

The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.

Time to move forward.
RE: honestly  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/11/2019 2:27 pm : link
In comment 14571824 giants#1 said:
Quote:
I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.

That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).


The Bills are a decent football team, and the Giants will be playing in 90 plus temps against the Bucs who shouldn't be judge too harshly based on week 1 because they had the flu running rampant through the lockerroom.
I think  
Les in TO : 9/11/2019 2:28 pm : link
Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs
RE: To stick with your point on performance  
GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.


Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.

Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I havenít seen it from him for some time. Thatís concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.

Iím not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isnít a big reason why we win games, whatís the point?
RE: RE: honestly  
giants#1 : 9/11/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14571839 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14571824 giants#1 said:


Quote:


I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.

That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).



The Bills are a decent football team, and the Giants will be playing in 90 plus temps against the Bucs who shouldn't be judge too harshly based on week 1 because they had the flu running rampant through the lockerroom.


Bills D is top 10, but their O is awful. Bucs - never trust Winston. I don't see either team making the playoffs and think both would be happy with 6-7 wins. If the Giants can't at least split those games and beat the Skins, they might as well start the learning process for Jones (after likely losses to the Vikes and Pats).
RE: The reason this decision is  
GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14571833 HoodieGelo said:
Quote:
so tough is because Eli is not playing bad. He's not playing well enough. He really is just a game-manager at this point. The problem is, we don't have a good enough defense to only have a "game-manager" under center. I love Eli, grew up with him and he'll always be my favorite Giant. But, if he doesn't light it up these next few games then there is no point keeping him as the starter. Unless it's obvious that he isn't the problem, I don't see how he keeps his job. We just have to pull off the band-aid at that point.

Another interesting tidbit that I think plays a pretty big part is his overall Win/Loss. I DO NOT want Eli having a W/L under .500 for his career. Granted, we know he has had shitty teams around him but for a while but it's just a bad look that does not reflect how vital he truly was to this franchise. That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm ok with Jones taking over the sooner rather than later.


I agree with pretty much all of this.
RE: I think  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14571840 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs


There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long
RE: RE: To stick with your point on performance  
Diver_Down : 9/11/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14571843 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.



Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.

Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I havenít seen it from him for some time. Thatís concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.

Iím not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isnít a big reason why we win games, whatís the point?


Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.
I've said it a 100 times  
arniefez : 9/11/2019 2:32 pm : link
I'll say it 100 more. There's not a bigger Eli Manning fan on this board than me. I'm sure there are others just as loyal to him as I am. But it's over now. It ends for everyone in sports.

There was a time Eli made everyone around him better. That is no longer the case. This will be Daniel Jones team for better or worse very soon. Maybe Jones can inject some energy into the entire organization by playing well. Maybe he plays like Eli did his rookie year.

Either way it's past time to move on. If Eli keeps playing the 5 wins last year are going to be tough to match.
let's not blame it all on the D  
giants#1 : 9/11/2019 2:33 pm : link
momentum (and emotions) makes a difference in this league and if the O had answered Dallas' first TD to regain the lead 14-7, things may have unfolded differently.
RE: honestly  
GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14571824 giants#1 said:
Quote:
I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.

That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).


From your lips to Godís ears, Iím hoping so too.

Itís probably the most winnable stretch of the season and I think anything less than 2-2 will be an indictment.
RE: RE: RE: To stick with your point on performance  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14571848 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14571843 GiantTuff1 said:


Quote:


In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.



Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.

Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I havenít seen it from him for some time. Thatís concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.

Iím not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isnít a big reason why we win games, whatís the point?



Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.


I'm pretty sure Hamilton had his review on the plane ride home

RE: did you guys watch the Texans/Saints game?  
Nine-Tails : 9/11/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14571837 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
where both quarterbacks played lights out down the stretch? Where they both put their teams on their backs in an effort to win the game?

Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.

In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.

Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).

The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.

Time to move forward.


+1
RE: did you guys watch the Texans/Saints game?  
GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2019 2:39 pm : link
In comment 14571837 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
where both quarterbacks played lights out down the stretch? Where they both put their teams on their backs in an effort to win the game?

Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.

In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.

Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).

The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.

Time to move forward.


This was painful to read, but sadly it rings true. Dammit, it sucks to see a guy you love no longer having ďitĒ.

I forgot about the Pats game, it would be tough to pull Eli before that, but I have hope he can pass this first ďreviewĒ or else I donít have much hope.
RE: RE: honestly  
giants#1 : 9/11/2019 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14571853 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14571824 giants#1 said:


Quote:


I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.

That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).



From your lips to Godís ears, Iím hoping so too.

Itís probably the most winnable stretch of the season and I think anything less than 2-2 will be an indictment.


Yea, I'd put the 4 game stretch after NE right there too: Az, Det, 'Boys, Jets.
RE: RE: RE: RE: To stick with your point on performance  
GiantTuff1 : 9/11/2019 2:41 pm : link
In comment 14571854 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14571848 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14571843 GiantTuff1 said:


Quote:


In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.



Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.

Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I havenít seen it from him for some time. Thatís concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.

Iím not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isnít a big reason why we win games, whatís the point?



Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.



I'm pretty sure Hamilton had his review on the plane ride home


LOL...

Pink slip review.
Look DJ has played already, it's happening  
gtt350 : 9/11/2019 2:47 pm : link
.
This is a poor analogy  
Mike from Ohio : 9/11/2019 2:50 pm : link
In business you are reviewing results against expectations and holding accountable the people who are responsible for achieving those results. The only way the analogy works for football is if you agree that the W-L record is fully the responsibility of the QB. Most people do not subscribe to that.

What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.
RE: RE: did you guys watch the Texans/Saints game?  
Les in TO : 9/11/2019 2:54 pm : link
In comment 14571856 Nine-Tails said:
Quote:
In comment 14571837 GiantNatty said:


Quote:


where both quarterbacks played lights out down the stretch? Where they both put their teams on their backs in an effort to win the game?

Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.

In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.

Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).

The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.

Time to move forward.



+1
+2. Iíve been blasted for making this point for five years. Thank you
RE: This is a poor analogy  
giants#1 : 9/11/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14571875 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In business you are reviewing results against expectations and holding accountable the people who are responsible for achieving those results. The only way the analogy works for football is if you agree that the W-L record is fully the responsibility of the QB. Most people do not subscribe to that.

What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.


A future HOF QB "exceeding all of his goals" generally translates to a reasonable record. At best Eli is performing on par with expectations.

So if your company is doing awful and your sales manager has already put in notice that he's leaving at the end of the quarter, do you start getting his replacement trained or continue to let him muddle along?
RE: RE: I think  
Britt in VA : 9/11/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14571847 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14571840 Les in TO said:


Quote:


Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs



There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long


I don't think so. I think that's the expectation in the big picture, besides a pocket full of disgruntled Giants fans.
RE: RE: I think  
Les in TO : 9/11/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14571847 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14571840 Les in TO said:


Quote:


Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs



There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long
Maybe. But Mara is also very sensitive to what happened in 2017 and will likely err on the side of waiting until the playoffs are officially out of reach especially if Eliís week one performance is the baseline for the season (made some decent throws, didnít make any big mistakes, but didnít consistently make enough plays to continue drives and score points).
Wait till we hear boos from giant fans  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 3:02 pm : link
And cheers from bills fans in our home opener

And as a reminder we werenít eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.

If we go down a similar path, they canít wait that long.

Youíre gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
I want jones already starting now  
Giantfan21 : 9/11/2019 3:02 pm : link
But at the same time i think it would be better for everyone involved for the giants to wait till after week 6 right after the patriots game on TNF and give jones extra time to prepare for Arizona week 7. I think that is the perfect time to do it.

Gives jones a little more time to mentally prepare for the next 6 weeks, gives eli a fair and final chance to win before pulling the plug on him , and doesn't allow the eli diehards to meltdown like last time .

This is assuming the giants are 2-4 or worse at that point which i think will happen . If they are 3-3 then it becomes more tricky
Shurmurís clock starts once Jones plays-  
Sean : 9/11/2019 3:04 pm : link
I also think Shurmur is antsy to get him playing time because of plays like the intentional grounding we saw on Sunday. Those type of plays greatly impact the game.
I agree OP  
Thegratefulhead : 9/11/2019 3:04 pm : link
I posted the records I would make the change based on playoff probability. I would pull the trigger if we lose to Buffalo.

0-2 12% Playoffs
1-3 15%
2-4 9%
3-5 7%

So for me it any time we fall 2 games below 500. If we are only 1 game under, If we win the next we could be back at 500. I think this is fair. The only reason to start an OLD QB over 1 you drafted at 6 is that you have a reasonable opportunity to compete for the playoffs. Once you don't, experience for the kid trumps all. I am not sure Jones doesn't give us a better chance to win right now because he is a better fir for Shurmur's system.

All I know is it's over  
ghost718 : 9/11/2019 3:11 pm : link
and hopefully the Giants have a plan

Because the last thing we need is this guy getting hurt or boo'ed off the field after that Geno Smith bullshit.
RE: Wait till we hear boos from giant fans  
Britt in VA : 9/11/2019 3:12 pm : link
In comment 14571887 ron mexico said:
Quote:
And cheers from bills fans in our home opener

And as a reminder we werenít eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.

If we go down a similar path, they canít wait that long.

Youíre gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games


We won't get to 2-9 without Jones being inserted. This is much different from 2017. Jones is not Davis Webb.
I like the Ari game as a launching point for Jones as well  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 3:14 pm : link
but just to point it out, teams don't get extra practice after TNF games. They get that weekend off and resume a normal practice week on Monday.

But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
RE: RE: Wait till we hear boos from giant fans  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 3:16 pm : link
In comment 14571904 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14571887 ron mexico said:


Quote:


And cheers from bills fans in our home opener

And as a reminder we werenít eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.

If we go down a similar path, they canít wait that long.

Youíre gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games



We won't get to 2-9 without Jones being inserted. This is much different from 2017. Jones is not Davis Webb.


well then we agree. The Giants wont necessarily wait for mathematical elimination. It could work out that way if the D somehow magically turns it around, but not likely IMO.
RE: I like the Ari game as a launching point for Jones as well  
giants#1 : 9/11/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14571906 ron mexico said:
Quote:
but just to point it out, teams don't get extra practice after TNF games. They get that weekend off and resume a normal practice week on Monday.

But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli


Extra time for Jones and the team to prepare mentally. Extra time for the coaches to modify the game plan which is likely substantially different than what they'd do with Eli.
RE: To stick with your point on performance  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2019 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.

Does it matter? If the point of playing Eli is to give the team the best chance to win (and that's just an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's farfetched), then doesn't the priority shift at some point to getting Jones live-action experience - in practice as well as in games - if the team is simply overmatched overall in spite of Eli's performance?

I guess it depends on whether or not they've already made up their minds about Eli's future beyond this season, because if they're definitely certain that they do not intend to re-sign Eli (barring some catastrophic scenario for Jones), then there has to be a point where Eli's performance is irrelevant if the team itself stinks.

I don't know if that point is at 1-3 or 0-4, but if that's where this team is at the quarter pole, the only justifiable reason I can think of to not make the switch would be because they've shifted their focus to finding the right time to ramp up Jones and insert him into the lineup, not because they need to reward Eli's performance on an otherwise awful team.
RE: RE: This is a poor analogy  
Mike from Ohio : 9/11/2019 3:22 pm : link
In comment 14571880 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14571875 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


In business you are reviewing results against expectations and holding accountable the people who are responsible for achieving those results. The only way the analogy works for football is if you agree that the W-L record is fully the responsibility of the QB. Most people do not subscribe to that.

What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.



A future HOF QB "exceeding all of his goals" generally translates to a reasonable record. At best Eli is performing on par with expectations.

So if your company is doing awful and your sales manager has already put in notice that he's leaving at the end of the quarter, do you start getting his replacement trained or continue to let him muddle along?


This wasn't to suggest Eli should still be playing if his stats are good. It was to point out that it was a bad analogy as the assessment isn't that simple. I didn't make any statements about whether Eli or Jones should be starting.
RE: RE: I like the Ari game as a launching point for Jones as well  
ron mexico : 9/11/2019 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14571915 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14571906 ron mexico said:


Quote:


but just to point it out, teams don't get extra practice after TNF games. They get that weekend off and resume a normal practice week on Monday.

But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli



Extra time for Jones and the team to prepare mentally. Extra time for the coaches to modify the game plan which is likely substantially different than what they'd do with Eli.


Thats fair
RE: RE: To stick with your point on performance  
Britt in VA : 9/11/2019 3:26 pm : link
In comment 14571916 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.


Does it matter? If the point of playing Eli is to give the team the best chance to win (and that's just an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's farfetched), then doesn't the priority shift at some point to getting Jones live-action experience - in practice as well as in games - if the team is simply overmatched overall in spite of Eli's performance?

I guess it depends on whether or not they've already made up their minds about Eli's future beyond this season, because if they're definitely certain that they do not intend to re-sign Eli (barring some catastrophic scenario for Jones), then there has to be a point where Eli's performance is irrelevant if the team itself stinks.

I don't know if that point is at 1-3 or 0-4, but if that's where this team is at the quarter pole, the only justifiable reason I can think of to not make the switch would be because they've shifted their focus to finding the right time to ramp up Jones and insert him into the lineup, not because they need to reward Eli's performance on an otherwise awful team.


This is actually a new angle that hasn't been discussed much in regards to Jones. Eli is playing for his job currently, but nobody knows if he's actually potentially auditioning for an extension or not to management. I know fans think it's a foregone conclusion that this is Eli's last season, and at this point I think it is, too. But you just never know.
RE: RE: RE: To stick with your point on performance  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2019 3:30 pm : link
In comment 14571848 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14571843 GiantTuff1 said:


Quote:


In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.



Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.

Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I havenít seen it from him for some time. Thatís concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.

Iím not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isnít a big reason why we win games, whatís the point?



Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.

Just so we're clear, players at every other position besides K, P, and LS are able to get playing time and/or start games situationally without it causing any sort of reaction.

The reason why this only applies to Eli is because of the sensitivity that applies to QBs, especially a QB transition. Wouldn't you agree that once Jones takes the reins, the team should hope that he plays so well that he never gives them up until we have the same conversation 15 years from now? That's not the way it works at other positions, so it doesn't apply to the other players.

And you know that.
Eli should be judged on...  
bw in dc : 9/11/2019 3:33 pm : link
his ability to produce points. Right now, IMV, we have to assume the swiss cheese D is going to struggle holding teams below 24 points. So pressure will grow for the O to keep up. While I would start Jones - would have started him G1 - you probably need to let six games play out to judge.

Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.

Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.
RE: Eli should be judged on...  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/11/2019 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14571933 bw in dc said:
Quote:
his ability to produce points. Right now, IMV, we have to assume the swiss cheese D is going to struggle holding teams below 24 points. So pressure will grow for the O to keep up. While I would start Jones - would have started him G1 - you probably need to let six games play out to judge.

Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.

Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.


If we lose to the Bills at home and don't put up at least 24 points in doing so, you need to make the switch. The investment is in the offensive side of the ball. This with the caveat Shephard plays, which it looks like he probably will.
Eli played poorly in week 1  
twostepgiants : 9/11/2019 3:39 pm : link
Just because the defense was ďthe reason the Giants lostĒ doesnít mean that Eli wasnít also bad

1- He took an intentional grounding penalty on a 3rd and 1 at the Dallas 35. This took us out of FG range and maybe cost the Giants 3 points in a 7-7 game. This play may have well have been a turnover.

2- On the same play he missed a wide open receiver for a 1st down that would have given the Giants a 1st and 10 at at least the Dallas 30 for what could be a TD Drive.

3- He used a TO trying to get Sterling Shepherd to move over a little bit in what went for about 7 seconds early on the 1st drive. The Giants would be short of TOs at the end of the first half stalling at the Dallas 44 yd line and being forced to go for a Hail Mary instead of being able to go for a FG attempt with about 10 more yards or more. This could have cost another additional 3 pts.

4- He missed Saquon Barkley for what would have been easy walk in TD and instead threw too early and hit him in the back, according to Sy review. This cost 7 pts.

5- He fumbled on a sack on 4th and 1 from the Dallas 7 where he hesitated and than ran (come on Eli) instead of taking a chance to throw down 28-10 or even throw and try and draw the pass interference call in the end zone. This could have cost 7 pts too.

Thatís a lot of mistakes at critical times. Left a lot of points on the field.

He played poorly. We need to stop holding him to a different standard than everyone else. Who else would make 5 errors like that costing points and not be said that they played bad?
Mara  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/11/2019 3:42 pm : link
was very clear about this imo. The team is expected to win. Eli needs to play well and the team needs to win.

I have a bigger concern. What about this coaching staff? Year two should there not be a higher expectation?

If they don't win move on to Jones. They need to evaluate this staff and front office. I don't think it prudent to play to total elimination.

Does the front office and staff get next year to not press for the playoffs? Win or get Jones in as this will need to at least make a strong playoff push next year imo.
eli's no dummy  
japanhead : 9/11/2019 3:45 pm : link
he knows if the offense continues to only put up 10 points when it counts, he'll be pulled sooner than later. if he's able to turn it on and they win a few, i think he'll make it to the bye week.
They are not going to wait for the math.  
Thegratefulhead : 9/11/2019 3:52 pm : link
The pressure will become untenable. On BBI, I see people every day saying, I was...Eli...Now it is time. If we lose on Sunday, you will hear people calling for Jones at the stadium. I am staggered that people do not understand the magnitude of the shitstorm that is about to happen unless the Giants WIN.
Lines of Scrimmage  
arniefez : 9/11/2019 3:56 pm : link
About the coaching staff. Expect more Mara half measures after the season meaning the DC will be fired and maybe a few other defensive coaches. Another band aid on a severed artery.
RE: RE: Eli should be judged on...  
bw in dc : 9/11/2019 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14571937 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14571933 bw in dc said:


Quote:


his ability to produce points. Right now, IMV, we have to assume the swiss cheese D is going to struggle holding teams below 24 points. So pressure will grow for the O to keep up. While I would start Jones - would have started him G1 - you probably need to let six games play out to judge.

Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.

Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.



If we lose to the Bills at home and don't put up at least 24 points in doing so, you need to make the switch. The investment is in the offensive side of the ball. This with the caveat Shephard plays, which it looks like he probably will.


It's a tricky game. The Bills are very physical upfront on both sides. But we could get some points courtesy of Josh Allen's silver platter. So looking at the game in the full context, post-mortem, will be interesting...
RE: They are not going to wait for the math.  
Giantfan21 : 9/11/2019 3:57 pm : link
In comment 14571950 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
The pressure will become untenable. On BBI, I see people every day saying, I was...Eli...Now it is time. If we lose on Sunday, you will hear people calling for Jones at the stadium. I am staggered that people do not understand the magnitude of the shitstorm that is about to happen unless the Giants WIN.


All you have to do is go back to the preseason games and listen to the cheers when jones came into the game. contrary to popular belief on here, most giants fans are ready to move on from eli at this point. A few more losses and the media/fans are going to get even louder for jones to play . This isn't 2017. They have a viable QB in jones ready to step in who most fans want to see, and the years and years of losing have made the fans had enough
RE: Lines of Scrimmage  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/11/2019 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14571953 arniefez said:
Quote:
About the coaching staff. Expect more Mara half measures after the season meaning the DC will be fired and maybe a few other defensive coaches. Another band aid on a severed artery.


That would be troubling. You accept that from Coughlin as he was a proven and then SB coach. Shurmur, he has been in the league and his second go around should have a expectation of quick results. I am surprised that so many seem to think we should give this regime 3-4 years for playoff results.

You think Parcels, Coughlin, Belichick would be making all these excuses about young players in public?
Nobody on this thread can tell you what Mara may or may not  
Jimmy Googs : 9/11/2019 4:28 pm : link
do with respect to Eli Manning. He is like a wounded animal at this point as his/our beloved Giants continue to show themselves as being noncompetitive in the NFCE.

In the meanwhile...Buffalo is next and lets see if they can get a Win.

play ball...
Watching Deshawn Watson  
joeinpa : 9/11/2019 4:32 pm : link
Play behind that line. Performing as well as he did, exposed for me just how flawed the narrative that all but exonerates Eli for the losing has been.

Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time
DG not getting ďpersonalĒ  
gmenatlarge : 9/11/2019 4:41 pm : link
I donít believe that to be true at all, he definitely took the Odell stuff personally and his campaign to rid the giants of all the JR guys sure seems personal to me, and NOT to the betterment of the team.
RE: RE: Lines of Scrimmage  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2019 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14571970 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 14571953 arniefez said:


Quote:


About the coaching staff. Expect more Mara half measures after the season meaning the DC will be fired and maybe a few other defensive coaches. Another band aid on a severed artery.



That would be troubling. You accept that from Coughlin as he was a proven and then SB coach. Shurmur, he has been in the league and his second go around should have a expectation of quick results. I am surprised that so many seem to think we should give this regime 3-4 years for playoff results.

You think Parcels, Coughlin, Belichick would be making all these excuses about young players in public?

You give Shurmur 3-4 years because a revolving door of coaches and executives just begets more losing. It's a difficult balance, because failing fast is a sound strategy in general, but if you're changing out schemes and philosophies every couple of years, you're perpetually rebuilding to suit the next coach's system.
RE: RE: RE: Lines of Scrimmage  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/11/2019 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14572017 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14571970 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


In comment 14571953 arniefez said:


Quote:


About the coaching staff. Expect more Mara half measures after the season meaning the DC will be fired and maybe a few other defensive coaches. Another band aid on a severed artery.



That would be troubling. You accept that from Coughlin as he was a proven and then SB coach. Shurmur, he has been in the league and his second go around should have a expectation of quick results. I am surprised that so many seem to think we should give this regime 3-4 years for playoff results.

You think Parcels, Coughlin, Belichick would be making all these excuses about young players in public?


You give Shurmur 3-4 years because a revolving door of coaches and executives just begets more losing. It's a difficult balance, because failing fast is a sound strategy in general, but if you're changing out schemes and philosophies every couple of years, you're perpetually rebuilding to suit the next coach's system.


There is logic in what you say and I agree with a proven winning coach or a first time coach with a lot of upside. I just think with a 2nd time coach you ramp up the expectations. Sometimes I think it is fair to say not the best hand here but win anyway.

Nothing worse than waiting to fill all the holes on the roster and then you find out you don't have a big time coach. Then you end up like 80% of the league chasing titles for decades.
RE: Watching Deshawn Watson  
Nine-Tails : 9/11/2019 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14571985 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Play behind that line. Performing as well as he did, exposed for me just how flawed the narrative that all but exonerates Eli for the losing has been.

Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time


Careful now,dont want to upset the apologists. Though I agree with you
RE: honestly  
Rudy5757 : 9/11/2019 5:30 pm : link
In comment 14571824 giants#1 said:
Quote:
I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.

That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).


This seems like the most logical. i dont think they Giants would put Jones in for the 1st time against those 2 teams. People keep saying Eli is not the reason we lost but he is definitely part of the reason. A 16 year vet should be making smart decisions but he is gun shy.
RE: Watching Deshawn Watson  
bw in dc : 9/11/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14571985 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Play behind that line. Performing as well as he did, exposed for me just how flawed the narrative that all but exonerates Eli for the losing has been.

Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time


Being able to produce off-script plays is a very big deal. Expecting to build OLs to the same level of quality as Dallas, Philly, Saints, etc is very difficult. It's just not that easy, especially because the pipeline of ready-to-play OLs from college just isn't as good. So transitioning to a more mobile QB is the better solution.

RE: Eli played poorly in week 1  
Les in TO : 9/11/2019 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14571938 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Just because the defense was ďthe reason the Giants lostĒ doesnít mean that Eli wasnít also bad

1- He took an intentional grounding penalty on a 3rd and 1 at the Dallas 35. This took us out of FG range and maybe cost the Giants 3 points in a 7-7 game. This play may have well have been a turnover.

2- On the same play he missed a wide open receiver for a 1st down that would have given the Giants a 1st and 10 at at least the Dallas 30 for what could be a TD Drive.

3- He used a TO trying to get Sterling Shepherd to move over a little bit in what went for about 7 seconds early on the 1st drive. The Giants would be short of TOs at the end of the first half stalling at the Dallas 44 yd line and being forced to go for a Hail Mary instead of being able to go for a FG attempt with about 10 more yards or more. This could have cost another additional 3 pts.

4- He missed Saquon Barkley for what would have been easy walk in TD and instead threw too early and hit him in the back, according to Sy review. This cost 7 pts.

5- He fumbled on a sack on 4th and 1 from the Dallas 7 where he hesitated and than ran (come on Eli) instead of taking a chance to throw down 28-10 or even throw and try and draw the pass interference call in the end zone. This could have cost 7 pts too.

Thatís a lot of mistakes at critical times. Left a lot of points on the field.

He played poorly. We need to stop holding him to a different standard than everyone else. Who else would make 5 errors like that costing points and not be said that they played bad?
Ereck Flowers
I don't trust Shurmar and his decision making so far  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/11/2019 6:18 pm : link
Even that fumble was a bit concerning, the first thing I tell DJ8 is always always slide, no dive between 2 defenders like youre Larry Csonka. Be Aaron Rogers, not Wentz/Allen.

and in theory its best if a rookie QB stews for a year. I know know bbi likes the excitement of a new shiny toy I know.
I Have To Say It Again  
Jim in NH : 9/11/2019 6:24 pm : link
This is not the National Feelings League.

I have posted here repeatedly my opinion that Eli Manning has been finished for at least three years. Maybe that's right, maybe it's wrong.

My first item of sports memorabilia was a Charley Conerly button. I was twelve years old when YA Tittle was bleeding in the end zone. Fran Tarkenton made being a fan tolerable. And so on.

QBs get to the point where they don't lead the team to wins. With Manning, that point is long past.

Is he better than Conerly? Better than YA? Better than Tarkenton? Better than Simms?

What's the big deal with sitting him down? He's not your father, he's not your brother, he's not your son. He's a soon to be ex-pro football player, like all the rest of them, except he beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl, a fine achievement to remember.

It's time for Daniel Jones. If you are posting all this crap about how Eli FEELS, or how you FEEL about how Eli FEELS, get over it.

This is the National FOOTBALL league.
How Long?  
Thegratefulhead : 9/11/2019 6:25 pm : link
Imagine people chanting for Jones if we are losing, ALL talk radios and the pregame shows talking about this Non-Stop before someone in management thinks.

What if Jones does well?

Is that a better story?

The beauty is he doesn't even have to play better. You can say he was always going to need to learn the ropes and people will give them a pass.

Losing with Jones is not worse than losing with Eli.

So then the question of why not becomes really hard to answer.
RE: Watching Deshawn Watson  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/11/2019 6:39 pm : link
In comment 14571985 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Play behind that line. Performing as well as he did, exposed for me just how flawed the narrative that all but exonerates Eli for the losing has been.

Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time

Excellent post. I too would like DeAndre Hopkins.
RE: RE: Watching Deshawn Watson  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/11/2019 7:32 pm : link
In comment 14572088 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14571985 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Play behind that line. Performing as well as he did, exposed for me just how flawed the narrative that all but exonerates Eli for the losing has been.

Even last Sunday with 400 yards of offense, how effective that when you only convert 2 third downs and score 17 pts, 7 in garbage time


Excellent post. I too would like DeAndre Hopkins.

Dynamite drop-in from the alternate handle of fanofthejets.
RE: I think  
djm : 9/11/2019 9:36 pm : link
In comment 14571840 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs


I know youíre not saying that because you think Eli will rightfully hold off jones. I disagree. Even if Eli were to play well I think jones gets in if the giants show little to no chance of winning big games. If they are 3-5 thanks to the worst D ever, jones will play.
I might extend that to 3-6 or 4-6  
djm : 9/11/2019 9:38 pm : link
Still mathematically alive, but sinking. I think Jones will play before 4-8
I am not expecting  
Rick5 : 9/11/2019 9:40 pm : link
the Giants to be very good this year regardless of whether they play Eli or Jones. In any event, it's clear that we are nearing the end of the Eli era. Whether Jones plays 10 games, 8 games, 4 games...that seems pretty minor to me in the big picture. The Eli era is basically over.
Issue have with this theory is the Giants are a FAMILY RUN Business  
SteelGiant : 9/11/2019 9:57 pm : link
The corporate dynamics are different the way they are run. The family owner has way more pull then any President of the company and CEO yada yada yada.

Even though we may not agree with it, I think that family run owner would be ok with things happening slower than a fan. Especially when they opportunity to write their own history.

They want the best story
1. Eli playing and winning the SuperBowl and riding into the sunset.
2. Eli handing the ball to Daniel Jones as the next grest QB in giants history and then Daniel Jones becomes the greatest QB of all time. (it would so graceful to have this in giants history)
3. Daniel Jones plays right away, sucks, and everyone yells to put Eli back in.
4. Everyone Boos Eli for sucking, he gets pulled, DJ goes in and saves the day
5. Lets see how it goes, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Let it ride and as soon as it makes the most sense for most of the fans and media, we will write the story the way we want as it unfolds.

Point is, there is no serious judging going on here, The Giants want to make a smooth transition at QB. That is the point of the season whether we like it or not. The quicker you accept it the easier it is to watch it unfold.

I personally think the Giants need work in a lot of places, and throwing Daniel in there quickly could potentially hurt him as much as help him. I am going to let it rides it course, he already got playing time in game one.
The only way as fan that would make upset if the Giants looked really good but Eli letting everyone down with play. Could we be better if Daniel was in, probably,but if cant rush the passer or cover wrs, it really does not matter.


I think the game six theory makes sense . No reason to continue  
Bluesbreaker : 9/12/2019 12:47 am : link
to play Eli if were below 500 I don't want Jones
to start against the Vikings or Pats ..
I really expected for Eli to bounce back this year
but you can't blame the Cowboy game on him .
Buffalo has a very good defense if we are 3-3 after
six games do you make the change ?
I think the game six theory makes sense . No reason to continue  
Bluesbreaker : 9/12/2019 12:48 am : link
to play Eli if were below 500 I don't want Jones
to start against the Vikings or Pats ..
I really expected for Eli to bounce back this year
but you can't blame the Cowboy game on him .
Buffalo has a very good defense if we are 3-3 after
six games do you make the change ?
RE: RE: I think  
Les in TO : 9/12/2019 6:16 am : link
In comment 14572204 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14571840 Les in TO said:


Quote:


Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs



I know youíre not saying that because you think Eli will rightfully hold off jones. I disagree. Even if Eli were to play well I think jones gets in if the giants show little to no chance of winning big games. If they are 3-5 thanks to the worst D ever, jones will play.
weíll see. Iím basing it more on Maraís offseason comments and historical bias towards not asking changes until the season is effectively over
Eric was right  
NikkiMac : 9/12/2019 10:54 am : link
One more loss and weíve got full blown QB controversy
3-3  
Thegratefulhead : 9/12/2019 11:06 am : link
I keep starting Eli. Two games under 500, start Jones.
Glad people are finally starting to realize where this franchise is  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/12/2019 11:53 am : link
and how meaningless this year is. The more time Jones get this season, the better it is for the franchise going forward.
RE: I Have To Say It Again  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/12/2019 11:55 am : link
In comment 14572079 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
This is not the National Feelings League.

I have posted here repeatedly my opinion that Eli Manning has been finished for at least three years. Maybe that's right, maybe it's wrong.

My first item of sports memorabilia was a Charley Conerly button. I was twelve years old when YA Tittle was bleeding in the end zone. Fran Tarkenton made being a fan tolerable. And so on.

QBs get to the point where they don't lead the team to wins. With Manning, that point is long past.

Is he better than Conerly? Better than YA? Better than Tarkenton? Better than Simms?

What's the big deal with sitting him down? He's not your father, he's not your brother, he's not your son. He's a soon to be ex-pro football player, like all the rest of them, except he beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl, a fine achievement to remember.

It's time for Daniel Jones. If you are posting all this crap about how Eli FEELS, or how you FEEL about how Eli FEELS, get over it.

This is the National FOOTBALL league.


+1.

Lets remember, we actually had a guy on here admit that he cried at his dinner table in front of his wife and children the week that Eli got benched 2 years ago.

I mean...
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