When Gettleman brought in Pat Shurmur there were a number of things he talked about wanting in a head coach and one of those was a CEO-like mentality.
It’s clear from Gettleman’s history here and in Carolina, he makes prudent business decisions and personal stuff is set aside for the “betterment of the franchise”.
I see Eli as the current (perhaps middling) manager, with a hungry, cheaper employee under him who excites the staff and can also give the Executives a longer rope.
We all know business is typically reviewed quarterly. So the question is, after the first quarter of the season, what record does Eli need to pull in order to be allowed to continue to manage this team? Can he be allowed to keep starting for this team at 1-3 or 0-4 after the quarterly performance review?
I have been a massive Eli supporter for years, maybe evan an apologist. But I just cannot see much point in Eli leading this team anymore with Daniel Jones here.
In my view, anything less than .500 after 4 games should warrant a demotion. If Eli can go at least 2-2, I roll with him and play the same game in Q2. Maybe it will light a fire in him.
It’s truly sad we are at this point, but at some point performance needs to be accountable the same at QB as it is for every position, especially when the job is not getting done and it makes more sense to pivot, for the sake of the future, with the young up and comer in the wings.
If we get to the midway point significantly under .500, you'll see him.
That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
Im not suggesting we are capable of beating anyone at this point but Minny Home and Away are two very different teams ... all the 1-0 teams arent going to go 16-0 .. Packers will likely score a few more than 10 pts this wk - that over is actually looking pretty good :-D
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we are not beating Minny or the Pats
Im not suggesting we are capable of beating anyone at this point but Minny Home and Away are two very different teams ... all the 1-0 teams arent going to go 16-0 .. Packers will likely score a few more than 10 pts this wk - that over is actually looking pretty good :-D
I've already taken Minny straight up.
They dont need no stinkin 2.5 points
Also, Atl looks terrible. Matt Ryan is dealing with what Eli had to deal with these past few years. Betthe house on the Eagles
Another interesting tidbit that I think plays a pretty big part is his overall Win/Loss. I DO NOT want Eli having a W/L under .500 for his career. Granted, we know he has had shitty teams around him but for a while but it's just a bad look that does not reflect how vital he truly was to this franchise. That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm ok with Jones taking over the sooner rather than later.
Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.
In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.
Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).
The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.
Time to move forward.
That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
The Bills are a decent football team, and the Giants will be playing in 90 plus temps against the Bucs who shouldn't be judge too harshly based on week 1 because they had the flu running rampant through the lockerroom.
Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.
Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I haven’t seen it from him for some time. That’s concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.
I’m not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isn’t a big reason why we win games, what’s the point?
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I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.
That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
The Bills are a decent football team, and the Giants will be playing in 90 plus temps against the Bucs who shouldn't be judge too harshly based on week 1 because they had the flu running rampant through the lockerroom.
Bills D is top 10, but their O is awful. Bucs - never trust Winston. I don't see either team making the playoffs and think both would be happy with 6-7 wins. If the Giants can't at least split those games and beat the Skins, they might as well start the learning process for Jones (after likely losses to the Vikes and Pats).
Another interesting tidbit that I think plays a pretty big part is his overall Win/Loss. I DO NOT want Eli having a W/L under .500 for his career. Granted, we know he has had shitty teams around him but for a while but it's just a bad look that does not reflect how vital he truly was to this franchise. That's one of the biggest reasons why I'm ok with Jones taking over the sooner rather than later.
I agree with pretty much all of this.
There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.
Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I haven’t seen it from him for some time. That’s concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.
I’m not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isn’t a big reason why we win games, what’s the point?
Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.
There was a time Eli made everyone around him better. That is no longer the case. This will be Daniel Jones team for better or worse very soon. Maybe Jones can inject some energy into the entire organization by playing well. Maybe he plays like Eli did his rookie year.
Either way it's past time to move on. If Eli keeps playing the 5 wins last year are going to be tough to match.
That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
From your lips to God’s ears, I’m hoping so too.
It’s probably the most winnable stretch of the season and I think anything less than 2-2 will be an indictment.
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In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.
Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I haven’t seen it from him for some time. That’s concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.
I’m not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isn’t a big reason why we win games, what’s the point?
Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.
I'm pretty sure Hamilton had his review on the plane ride home
Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.
In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.
Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).
The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.
Time to move forward.
+1
Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.
In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.
Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).
The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.
Time to move forward.
This was painful to read, but sadly it rings true. Dammit, it sucks to see a guy you love no longer having “it”.
I forgot about the Pats game, it would be tough to pull Eli before that, but I have hope he can pass this first “review” or else I don’t have much hope.
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I feel like we should win the next 3. Bills, Bucs, and Skins are not good teams and anything short of 2-2 would indicate it's time for a change.
That said, you also have to look at the upcoming games. With the Vikes and Pats in weeks 5-6, I can't see them pulling the trigger until after week 6 at the earliest. The Pats game is also Thursday night so it would give them an extra 1/2 week to prep Jones if they do make the switch (2-4 or worse and I'm pulling the trigger).
From your lips to God’s ears, I’m hoping so too.
It’s probably the most winnable stretch of the season and I think anything less than 2-2 will be an indictment.
Yea, I'd put the 4 game stretch after NE right there too: Az, Det, 'Boys, Jets.
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In comment 14571843 GiantTuff1 said:
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In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.
Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I haven’t seen it from him for some time. That’s concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.
I’m not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isn’t a big reason why we win games, what’s the point?
Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.
I'm pretty sure Hamilton had his review on the plane ride home
LOL...
Pink slip review.
What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.
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where both quarterbacks played lights out down the stretch? Where they both put their teams on their backs in an effort to win the game?
Maybe it's true that Eli isn't the reason why they lost. But I can say for certain he's not the reason why they won. And he hasn't been in a long, long time. And while, sure, he can "make all the throws," since when has that been the measure of a good quarterback? Does he win games is and ought to be.
In today's NFL, if you want to win games (never mind championships), you have to have a QB that will go out and grab it. Eli just isn't that guy any more. I'm sorry to say it because I love the dude, but it's as right as rain.
Whether he wins the next three or not, I would start him game 5 no questions asked (though I would start him game 2 no questions asked).
The Eli era is over. Has been for a while now. Stop delaying the inevitable, get the new guy some valuable playing time and experience, put Eli in the Ring of Honor, and support him when he gets enshrined.
Time to move forward.
+1
What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.
A future HOF QB "exceeding all of his goals" generally translates to a reasonable record. At best Eli is performing on par with expectations.
So if your company is doing awful and your sales manager has already put in notice that he's leaving at the end of the quarter, do you start getting his replacement trained or continue to let him muddle along?
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Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs
There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long
I don't think so. I think that's the expectation in the big picture, besides a pocket full of disgruntled Giants fans.
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Eli will be the starter until the Giants are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs
There will be mutiny by the fans or the team or both if they wait that long
And as a reminder we weren’t eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.
If we go down a similar path, they can’t wait that long.
You’re gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
Gives jones a little more time to mentally prepare for the next 6 weeks, gives eli a fair and final chance to win before pulling the plug on him , and doesn't allow the eli diehards to meltdown like last time .
This is assuming the giants are 2-4 or worse at that point which i think will happen . If they are 3-3 then it becomes more tricky
0-2 12% Playoffs
1-3 15%
2-4 9%
3-5 7%
So for me it any time we fall 2 games below 500. If we are only 1 game under, If we win the next we could be back at 500. I think this is fair. The only reason to start an OLD QB over 1 you drafted at 6 is that you have a reasonable opportunity to compete for the playoffs. Once you don't, experience for the kid trumps all. I am not sure Jones doesn't give us a better chance to win right now because he is a better fir for Shurmur's system.
Because the last thing we need is this guy getting hurt or boo'ed off the field after that Geno Smith bullshit.
And as a reminder we weren’t eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.
If we go down a similar path, they can’t wait that long.
You’re gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
We won't get to 2-9 without Jones being inserted. This is much different from 2017. Jones is not Davis Webb.
But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
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And cheers from bills fans in our home opener
And as a reminder we weren’t eliminated in 17 till we went 2-9.
If we go down a similar path, they can’t wait that long.
You’re gonna have to get fans a reason to tune in to the games
We won't get to 2-9 without Jones being inserted. This is much different from 2017. Jones is not Davis Webb.
well then we agree. The Giants wont necessarily wait for mathematical elimination. It could work out that way if the D somehow magically turns it around, but not likely IMO.
But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
Extra time for Jones and the team to prepare mentally. Extra time for the coaches to modify the game plan which is likely substantially different than what they'd do with Eli.
Does it matter? If the point of playing Eli is to give the team the best chance to win (and that's just an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's farfetched), then doesn't the priority shift at some point to getting Jones live-action experience - in practice as well as in games - if the team is simply overmatched overall in spite of Eli's performance?
I guess it depends on whether or not they've already made up their minds about Eli's future beyond this season, because if they're definitely certain that they do not intend to re-sign Eli (barring some catastrophic scenario for Jones), then there has to be a point where Eli's performance is irrelevant if the team itself stinks.
I don't know if that point is at 1-3 or 0-4, but if that's where this team is at the quarter pole, the only justifiable reason I can think of to not make the switch would be because they've shifted their focus to finding the right time to ramp up Jones and insert him into the lineup, not because they need to reward Eli's performance on an otherwise awful team.
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In business you are reviewing results against expectations and holding accountable the people who are responsible for achieving those results. The only way the analogy works for football is if you agree that the W-L record is fully the responsibility of the QB. Most people do not subscribe to that.
What you are suggesting is really doing a specific job performance review on everyone based only on the ultimate results of the company. Would you "bench" the sales manager who exceeded all of his goals because there were production backlogs that lead to poor financial results? That may not be smart.
A future HOF QB "exceeding all of his goals" generally translates to a reasonable record. At best Eli is performing on par with expectations.
So if your company is doing awful and your sales manager has already put in notice that he's leaving at the end of the quarter, do you start getting his replacement trained or continue to let him muddle along?
This wasn't to suggest Eli should still be playing if his stats are good. It was to point out that it was a bad analogy as the assessment isn't that simple. I didn't make any statements about whether Eli or Jones should be starting.
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but just to point it out, teams don't get extra practice after TNF games. They get that weekend off and resume a normal practice week on Monday.
But the short week before NE is a reason to stick with Eli
Extra time for Jones and the team to prepare mentally. Extra time for the coaches to modify the game plan which is likely substantially different than what they'd do with Eli.
Thats fair
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Does it matter? If the point of playing Eli is to give the team the best chance to win (and that's just an assumption on my part, but I don't think it's farfetched), then doesn't the priority shift at some point to getting Jones live-action experience - in practice as well as in games - if the team is simply overmatched overall in spite of Eli's performance?
I guess it depends on whether or not they've already made up their minds about Eli's future beyond this season, because if they're definitely certain that they do not intend to re-sign Eli (barring some catastrophic scenario for Jones), then there has to be a point where Eli's performance is irrelevant if the team itself stinks.
I don't know if that point is at 1-3 or 0-4, but if that's where this team is at the quarter pole, the only justifiable reason I can think of to not make the switch would be because they've shifted their focus to finding the right time to ramp up Jones and insert him into the lineup, not because they need to reward Eli's performance on an otherwise awful team.
This is actually a new angle that hasn't been discussed much in regards to Jones. Eli is playing for his job currently, but nobody knows if he's actually potentially auditioning for an extension or not to management. I know fans think it's a foregone conclusion that this is Eli's last season, and at this point I think it is, too. But you just never know.
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In comment 14571816 Diver_Down said:
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what is your solution with regards to the defense? If we are 0-4 or 1-3 due to the performance of the defense, what then? While Eli had a few plays that he would like back, he wasn't the reason we lost on Sunday.
Sure, defense can be the reason for the poor start, but your QB has to be able to raise you up at times and take you over the top despite warts. The great ones do this.
Eli used to be able to do it, playing superhuman despite shitty D and raising us to victory, but I haven’t seen it from him for some time. That’s concerning. His margin for error is razor thin it seems.
I’m not saying he has to be all all world all the time, but if he isn’t a big reason why we win games, what’s the point?
Just so we are clear - you are only applying the quarterly review business model to Eli. Sounds fair.
Just so we're clear, players at every other position besides K, P, and LS are able to get playing time and/or start games situationally without it causing any sort of reaction.
The reason why this only applies to Eli is because of the sensitivity that applies to QBs, especially a QB transition. Wouldn't you agree that once Jones takes the reins, the team should hope that he plays so well that he never gives them up until we have the same conversation 15 years from now? That's not the way it works at other positions, so it doesn't apply to the other players.
And you know that.
Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.
Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.
Plus, Shurmur is an issue, too, because his overly conservative approach with Barkley is a real problem.
Still, my guess is Jints Central will likely keep Eli in the saddle until the mathematical eliminated threshold is met.
If we lose to the Bills at home and don't put up at least 24 points in doing so, you need to make the switch. The investment is in the offensive side of the ball. This with the caveat Shephard plays, which it looks like he probably will.
1- He took an intentional grounding penalty on a 3rd and 1 at the Dallas 35. This took us out of FG range and maybe cost the Giants 3 points in a 7-7 game. This play may have well have been a turnover.
2- On the same play he missed a wide open receiver for a 1st down that would have given the Giants a 1st and 10 at at least the Dallas 30 for what could be a TD Drive.
3- He used a TO trying to get Sterling Shepherd to move over a little bit in what went for about 7 seconds early on the 1st drive. The Giants would be short of TOs at the end of the first half stalling at the Dallas 44 yd line and being forced to go for a Hail Mary instead of being able to go for a FG attempt with about 10 more yards or more. This could have cost another additional 3 pts.
4- He missed Saquon Barkley for what would have been easy walk in TD and instead threw too early and hit him in the back, according to Sy review. This cost 7 pts.
5- He fumbled on a sack on 4th and 1 from the Dallas 7 where he hesitated and than ran (come on Eli) instead of taking a chance to throw down 28-10 or even throw and try and draw the pass interference call in the end zone. This could have cost 7 pts too.
That’s a lot of mistakes at critical times. Left a lot of points on the field.
He played poorly. We need to stop holding him to a different standard than everyone else. Who else would make 5 errors like that costing points and not be said that they played bad?
I have a bigger concern. What about this coaching staff? Year two should there not be a higher expectation?
If they don't win move on to Jones. They need to evaluate this staff and front office. I don't think it prudent to play to total elimination.
Does the front office and staff get next year to not press for the playoffs? Win or get Jones in as this will need to at least make a strong playoff push next year imo.