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Play selection in Dallas for our QB

HoustonGiant : 9/12/2019 12:02 pm
I really felt like PS was calling plays that highlight how unathletic Eli is.


Rollouts
Bootleg on 4th down (looked like a designed play)
Moving pockets

I just feel like he was saying "Jones would have gotten that, Jones can do that....."
If he thought that Jones would have been in there.  
Britt in VA : 9/12/2019 12:03 pm : link
.
RE: If he thought that Jones would have been in there.  
ron mexico : 9/12/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14572670 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


you are assuming its his call

(ducks)

kidding aside, this was brought up in another thread yesterday, apparently this theory is making its way around sports talk. Seems really silly to me.
those comments have been repeated here before  
Dinger : 9/12/2019 12:09 pm : link
I disagree. AND I felt like the play caling wasn't as horrendous as it sounded. It could have feautured more running from Barkley and MAYBE few Eli roll outs but if you rewatch the game and mute out Buck and Aikman, the offense looks pretty good. More often we were able to move the ball well. I hate to say it but the referees did us a horrible diservice all day. I dont think them calling a good game would have saved us from our defense but they missed at least 3 personal fouls and multiple PI calls. felt almost like they had an agenda on the intentional grounding call.
Giants seemed convince the bootlegs would work  
Vanzetti : 9/12/2019 12:10 pm : link
Maybe catch Dallas by surprise. But their D read them well.

The first one Iíll give them because you have to go with what you practiced

But the second one was just a bad call
I'm not the biggest Eli Supporter, but this logic isn't sound  
V.I.G. : 9/12/2019 12:12 pm : link
1) This narrative that Eli can't bootleg is silly. He did exactly that to his LEFT on the Engram TD. Shurmur calls those to have less blockers and more routes. Having someone that bootlegs faster only cuts the field faster.

2) Shurmur wants to win, period. There is no Machiavellian grand strategy here.

3) If there's any criticism on these rollouts it's that the QB's decision making was too late and couldn't find the open guy.
Sometimes life is simpler that people make it out to be...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/12/2019 12:14 pm : link
it's really simple - Pat Shurmur wants to win games. He's calling plays to be successful. He is not intentionally trying to sabotage Eli through his playcalling.

Ask yourself two questions:

1. What does Pat Shurmur gain by losing games?

2. How do you best learn to dismiss "feelings" you have that are alogical.
Giants had a lot of success....  
Tesla : 9/12/2019 12:15 pm : link
rolling Eli out to his right last year. Dallas was ready for it....and I suspect other teams will be as well.
i can't see  
mpinmaine : 9/12/2019 12:25 pm : link
the head coach of the NYG doing that.
On the fourth...  
HoustonGiant : 9/12/2019 12:27 pm : link
I thought "no way they would have expected it" but I also felt like Eli just didn't have the wheels to make the play regardless.

I don't think PS is tanking games, but I'm also not convinced, when it comes to Eli, he doesn't have pressure from above.
You're far from the only one who thinks Shurmur  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/12/2019 12:29 pm : link
has a hard-on for Jones. It's pretty apparent at this point.
RE: I'm not the biggest Eli Supporter, but this logic isn't sound  
Dinger : 9/12/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14572679 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
1) This narrative that Eli can't bootleg is silly. He did exactly that to his LEFT on the Engram TD. Shurmur calls those to have less blockers and more routes. Having someone that bootlegs faster only cuts the field faster.

2) Shurmur wants to win, period. There is no Machiavellian grand strategy here.

3) If there's any criticism on these rollouts it's that the QB's decision making was too late and couldn't find the open guy.


I'm an Eli fan and I think #3 is spot on with both those roll outs. He rolled to his left for the lone touchdown pass with ease.
And I felt like, despite the two horrendous rollouts, this game was the most mobile I've seen Eli in years. There was a 8 or 9 yard scramble when no one was open, there was the in the grasp pass play to Latimer I believe and one other instance.
HoustonGiant  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2019 12:39 pm : link
you're surmising Shurmur is calling plays to highlight what Eli cannot do well...so that he would have the necessary "ammo" to recommend using Jones sooner vs. later?

Is that the theme of your OP?
Dave.....People got killed for saying it here, but before the season,  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/12/2019 12:42 pm : link
after we saw what Jones could do in the preseason, that he may be the better option for what Shurmur wants to do offensively even as early as week 1.
RE: Sometimes life is simpler that people make it out to be...  
crick n NC : 9/12/2019 12:57 pm : link
In comment 14572681 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
it's really simple - Pat Shurmur wants to win games. He's calling plays to be successful. He is not intentionally trying to sabotage Eli through his playcalling.

Ask yourself two questions:

1. What does Pat Shurmur gain by losing games?

2. How do you best learn to dismiss "feelings" you have that are alogical.


👏
JFC  
Gman11 : 9/12/2019 1:12 pm : link
Make it stop.
I dont think he is doing it to lose  
Rudy5757 : 9/12/2019 1:13 pm : link
I think he is doing it because he cant adjust his O to the players strength, hes making Eli fit in to his O instead of making the O fit the talent. Its OK if you use those plays now and again but doing things that players dont do well too often is bad coaching.

Rollout passing game for an immobile QB is good up until the red zone. Once you get in the red zone the space is too tight and a slow QB will get gobbled up just as Eli did. He doesnt have the speed and athleticism to beat anyone and players are too fast. When you are at midfield there is a lot more ground to cover and you can gain a few yards with a QB run. You may as well do a QB sneak up the gut.

I call BS on all of this  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 9/12/2019 1:18 pm : link
How about just hand the ball to your franchise back on 3rd and 1!

Lots of debates could have been avoided.
RE: I dont think he is doing it to lose  
Dinger : 9/12/2019 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14572755 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
I think he is doing it because he cant adjust his O to the players strength, hes making Eli fit in to his O instead of making the O fit the talent. Its OK if you use those plays now and again but doing things that players dont do well too often is bad coaching.

Rollout passing game for an immobile QB is good up until the red zone. Once you get in the red zone the space is too tight and a slow QB will get gobbled up just as Eli did. He doesnt have the speed and athleticism to beat anyone and players are too fast. When you are at midfield there is a lot more ground to cover and you can gain a few yards with a QB run. You may as well do a QB sneak up the gut.


A couple of good points. The first one is scary though. He can't adjust to his players strengths...ugh. And really just some of the plays seemed to be 'over schemed' if thats possible.
RE: Dave.....People got killed for saying it here, but before the season,  
V.I.G. : 9/12/2019 2:00 pm : link
In comment 14572721 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
after we saw what Jones could do in the preseason, that he may be the better option for what Shurmur wants to do offensively even as early as week 1.

Sure, but I think the biggest indictment of a HC is that he's so inflexible to his scheme, that he can't game plan to
a) what his players do well or
b) what the opposing side does poorly

McAdoo scored 100% on both a&b
I am an Eli supporter but am excited about Jones' potential  
Dinger : 9/12/2019 2:09 pm : link
I just don't think he could add a whole lot right now. And if you bring up his mobility, I say, be careful, he's fumbled the ball a few times now and as tall as he is he isn't built like Prescott. To me he seems like he's a few good scrambles away from the IR. I don't think setting a specific time frame for Jones to start right now benefits anyone. Let Eli struggle OR the offense get bogged down. If you watch that game we were moving the ball well on a majority of our drives.
No way he's going to call plays to make Eli fail.  
Blue21 : 9/12/2019 2:26 pm : link
. In fact for all we know Eli audibled into them
RE: Giants had a lot of success....  
Bill L : 9/12/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14572683 Tesla said:
Quote:
rolling Eli out to his right last year. Dallas was ready for it....and I suspect other teams will be as well.



Absolutely. They did it a lot last year because the line was so porous.
VIG....I agree but Eli is so limited today and what is desired  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/12/2019 2:39 pm : link
in todays NFL there aren't that many people that can make it work. Shurmur has a great offensive system as has been proven, it just that Eli doesn't fit. Eli is a downfield pocket passer, how many teams are doing anything like that anymore. Brees and Brady destroy you in the underneath game, it isn't Eli's strength. If you want to have a downfield aerial attack being mobile is a pretty key component these days to run bootlegs, or buy time.
Zeke-  
Dnew15 : 9/12/2019 2:58 pm : link
I agree with you 100% - you hit the nail on the head.

I would say a large percentage on downfield plays in the NFL these days take place on broken plays where the QB escapes the pocket and throws down field on the run.

Eli is never going to be that guy and winning consistently and in big games with guys like Eli, Ben, and Rivers who all have similar strengths (maybe due to age) is getting harder and harder to do.
Rivers will be fine, he is an accurate short thrower, he has never  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/12/2019 3:05 pm : link
relied on arm strength. Ben put up massive numbers last year, but you already see the decline in his arm and he is losing his magic throwing guys draped all over him. He is getting old fast.
I guess the youngest of  
Dnew15 : 9/12/2019 3:14 pm : link
"those kind of QBs" would be Flacco.
Baltimore wasn't afraid to bail on him as soon as they could for a mobile guy.
Just a horrible playcall on 4th and 1  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/12/2019 3:16 pm : link
And I liked the rollouts last year, it was effective in mixing things up against a pass rush and getting Eli away from a horrible oline.

This year, not so much. Shurmor is a chicken head systems coach.
RE: I guess the youngest of  
ron mexico : 9/12/2019 3:18 pm : link
In comment 14572987 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
"those kind of QBs" would be Flacco.
Baltimore wasn't afraid to bail on him as soon as they could for a mobile guy.


Is Flacco older than Dalton?
RE: RE: I guess the youngest of  
Dnew15 : 9/12/2019 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14572996 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14572987 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


"those kind of QBs" would be Flacco.
Baltimore wasn't afraid to bail on him as soon as they could for a mobile guy.



Is Flacco older than Dalton?


Yup - by 3 years.

Dalton is a similar guy though.
probably add Stafford to that list  
ron mexico : 9/12/2019 3:20 pm : link
as well
RE: VIG....I agree but Eli is so limited today and what is desired  
V.I.G. : 9/12/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14572910 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
in todays NFL there aren't that many people that can make it work. Shurmur has a great offensive system as has been proven, it just that Eli doesn't fit. Eli is a downfield pocket passer, how many teams are doing anything like that anymore. Brees and Brady destroy you in the underneath game, it isn't Eli's strength. If you want to have a downfield aerial attack being mobile is a pretty key component these days to run bootlegs, or buy time.


Diggs, Thielen, and Rudolph made plenty of plays downfield. Shurmur has plenty of it in his playbook.

I'm not giving Shurmur a pass for DAL, but Eli has to make that decision more often. There were plenty of plays I saw that could have been diagnosed presnap (I didn't see much DAL disguise). Eli's just giving up on those lower percentage routes too early for the higher percentages ones.

RE: I dont think he is doing it to lose  
giants#1 : 9/12/2019 3:26 pm : link
In comment 14572755 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
I think he is doing it because he cant adjust his O to the players strength, hes making Eli fit in to his O instead of making the O fit the talent. Its OK if you use those plays now and again but doing things that players dont do well too often is bad coaching.

Rollout passing game for an immobile QB is good up until the red zone. Once you get in the red zone the space is too tight and a slow QB will get gobbled up just as Eli did. He doesnt have the speed and athleticism to beat anyone and players are too fast. When you are at midfield there is a lot more ground to cover and you can gain a few yards with a QB run. You may as well do a QB sneak up the gut.


I disagree that he can't adjust the O to his players. He used a lot of rollouts in MN and here last year because both OLs were awful and one of the best ways to mitigate that is to keep the pocket moving. Maybe he doesn't have full confidence in the OL yet? Rollouts are also a good misdirection play, which could take advantage of an aggressive D pursuing an elite RB. Give the Dallas D some credit for maintaining their lanes/responsibilities.

It's also easy to blame the coach/play call instead of the legendary player who failed to execute. Eli hesitated on the throw to Shepard and instead tucked in and tried to run, which wasn't the primary design of the play.
has nothing to do with the topic but just came to mind with the  
ron mexico : 9/12/2019 3:29 pm : link
mention of minny - but I got a kick out of Cousins stat line in their blow out week 1 win

8 for 10 98yds 1 TD

thats some efficient QBing right there!
RE: Just a horrible playcall on 4th and 1  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2019 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14572991 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
And I liked the rollouts last year, it was effective in mixing things up against a pass rush and getting Eli away from a horrible oline.

This year, not so much. Shurmor is a chicken head systems coach.


Yet on that play, Shepard was open for the touchdown only Eli hesitated and didn't throw the ball. And it allowed the Dallas defense to close in and ultimately run through/over his target. Eli takes a few blows (one to the head since he is outside the pocket and presume a runner I guess) and fumbles it away.

Not sure the play call was all that bad but in viewing the execution it was still an example of what not to do.

groundhog day statement...
Some of you need to take off your tinfoil hats.  
Section331 : 9/12/2019 3:54 pm : link
The idea that Shurmur is willing to intentionally lose games in order to call plays that embarrass his QB is just absurd. And you should be ashamed to call yourselves Giants fans. I get wanting to see DJ play, but the lengths some of you go to shit on the only QB in franchise history to win 2 SB's is despicable.
RE: RE: Just a horrible playcall on 4th and 1  
ron mexico : 9/12/2019 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14573038 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14572991 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


And I liked the rollouts last year, it was effective in mixing things up against a pass rush and getting Eli away from a horrible oline.

This year, not so much. Shurmor is a chicken head systems coach.



Yet on that play, Shepard was open for the touchdown only Eli hesitated and didn't throw the ball. And it allowed the Dallas defense to close in and ultimately run through/over his target. Eli takes a few blows (one to the head since he is outside the pocket and presume a runner I guess) and fumbles it away.

Not sure the play call was all that bad but in viewing the execution it was still an example of what not to do.

groundhog day statement...


Look at SS in that gif  
Dnew15 : 9/12/2019 4:09 pm : link
he knows Eli's not going to make that throw.

I wonder, if you had an anonymous poll of the NYG locker room, how many of those guys still think that Eli can lead them to victory. Today - right now.
SS  
crick n NC : 9/12/2019 4:11 pm : link
Is amazing, he has the ability to be on the field during the play and on the sideline at the same time, amazing player!
My bad :)  
Dnew15 : 9/12/2019 4:15 pm : link
Was SS not #87 last year?
SS..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2019 4:20 pm : link
was #87 last year and he's still that.

Not sure how you can tell what he's thinking from that gif, but that would be a missed chance to take a swipe at Eli I guess.....
RE: SS..  
Dinger : 9/12/2019 4:41 pm : link
In comment 14573101 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was #87 last year and he's still that.

Not sure how you can tell what he's thinking from that gif, but that would be a missed chance to take a swipe at Eli I guess.....


This....plus Shurmur was wearing something different Sunday, half the offensive line is standing behind him and was SS in on the play you are talking about....SS:"How is Eli gonna make that throw to me if I'm on the sideline....guys lets take a vote!"
RE: Giants seemed convince the bootlegs would work  
BSIMatt : 9/12/2019 5:22 pm : link
In comment 14572678 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Maybe catch Dallas by surprise. But their D read them well.

The first one Iíll give them because you have to go with what you practiced

But the second one was just a bad call


They had a few plays off Barkley action early and then after that Dallas was all over everything, The Giants seemed intent on establishing their counterpunch to Barkley, but it looks like they needed to establish Barkley first, in heavier doses instead of sprinkling him in.

I know they donít want to misuse him and need to keep him healthy but in hindsight this looked like a game where it really would have been better to just load up really pound them with Barkley and try to impose him, then sprinkle in the counterpunches.
RE: Look at SS in that gif  
V.I.G. : 9/12/2019 5:29 pm : link
In comment 14573084 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
he knows Eli's not going to make that throw.

I wonder, if you had an anonymous poll of the NYG locker room, how many of those guys still think that Eli can lead them to victory. Today - right now.


I think thereís a lot to this hypothetical. I think the fractured locker room and why many of those guys have been shipped out has to do with this.
RE: I'm not the biggest Eli Supporter, but this logic isn't sound  
NikkiMac : 9/12/2019 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14572679 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
1) This narrative that Eli can't bootleg is silly. He did exactly that to his LEFT on the Engram TD. Shurmur calls those to have less blockers and more routes. Having someone that bootlegs faster only cuts the field faster.

2) Shurmur wants to win, period. There is no Machiavellian grand strategy here.

3) If there's any criticism on these rollouts it's that the QB's decision making was too late and couldn't find the open guy.



Go back and look at game pass you will see that that bootleg right only works about 5% of the time going back 4 years and 3 coaches .... it seems to work for other teams but very rarely do they get more than a few yards on it or itís usually thrown at the receivers feet because itís not there .... I for one would be happy if they tried something different for us the play is a loser

I don't know I didn't like the roll outs  
Bluesbreaker : 9/12/2019 6:43 pm : link
I don't understand trying to attack the edges
with the team speed Dallas has on defense .
At least throw back the other way on occasion they
pursue quickly use it against them . Its too bad
Dickerson is hurt I would have used him and Ellison .
Obviously used Barkley more down one TD and abandon
the run . Comical short yardage plays you need a yard
or two and give it to the FB ????? Or again the roll
out Dallas knew it was coming nothing Shurmur called
fooled them at all .
RE: I'm not the biggest Eli Supporter, but this logic isn't sound  
giantstock : 9/12/2019 11:02 pm : link
In comment 14572679 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
1) This narrative that Eli can't bootleg is silly. He did exactly that to his LEFT on the Engram TD. Shurmur calls those to have less blockers and more routes. Having someone that bootlegs faster only cuts the field faster.

2) Shurmur wants to win, period. There is no Machiavellian grand strategy here.

3) If there's any criticism on these rollouts it's that the QB's decision making was too late and couldn't find the open guy.


What;s silly is going away from the team strength of running Barkley when he was successful. What's silly is going away from Eli's strength as a pocket passer in crucial downs.
I knew this gif was from last year...  
Dnew15 : 9/13/2019 7:57 am : link
It was the 4th down play against against the Falcons where Eli held the ball too long and missed a wide open Odell in a key spot in a game the Giants ended up losing.

You don't have to be a body language expert to see SS walked off in expected disappointment.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2018/10/23/18012842/giants-coach-pat-shurmur-had-some-explaining-to-do-after-loss-to-falcons
RE: JFC  
lecky : 9/13/2019 8:38 am : link
In comment 14572754 Gman11 said:
Quote:
Make it stop.


original!!
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