for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

NFT: Parenting advice for child cut from team

yankeeslover : 9/13/2019 7:25 am
Hey guys. Stuck between rock and hard place here. Just looking for advice. My daughter tried out for 6th grade volleyball but was cut from team this week along with 3 other girls. At 1st I told her that I was proud of her for giving 100% and trying as she has never played the sport before.
This morning I find out that the team kept a student that is in special ed. This student is handicapped and cant physically play as the other girls. Still, I think this is good for the team to keep her and let her play. Its 6th grade and she deserves to feel the part of the team. The problem I'm having, is my 12 yo doesn't look at it like this. She says it's not fair as she constantly outplayed this girl and deserved to make the team. Her and my wife want to contact school district which I want no part of doing.
How do you guys feel about this? Am I wrong for wanting to sit this one out? I say let it go, and let that poor girl enjoy herself, but then I have my own daughter beating herself up over this? I will not have anything to do with contacting the school over this.
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
RE: RE: RE: I dont understand how in a public school  
Chris in Philly : 9/13/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14573977 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14573944 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14573887 give66 said:


Quote:


a student can be denied a spot regardless of skill level. Do they cut the weak math students out of algebra?




Yes - if you're in 8th grade, only certain kids can take algebra. The others have to wait.



I don't know about your district but in mine if the kid is capable of taking it in 8th grade and wants to they do not deny anybody no matter how much extra it costs the district.


My wife is a teacher. I have two kids in public school. I myself went to public school. I have literally never heard of this kind of course scheduling. In 99.9% of the rest of the world, kids get placed in classes based on their demonstrated abilities. A low-performing student doesn't get placed in advanced classes just ti give it a try.
Work hard..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2019 11:26 am : link
and get better. Or get noticed. High school sports have always been political.

I didn't make the JV baseball team as a 9th grader. They kept 5 football players who had hardly played baseball before. I don't even think a coach watched anything I did in tryouts.

That Summer, I pitched a perfect game in Babe Ruth and led the team in almost every pitching and hitting category. The varsity coach came to one of the games and pulled me aside afterwards and said "You should come out for the team next year". I told him I had the previous year and was cut. He said "next year will be different".

Played varsity the next three years as a starter.

Don't worry about who else has made the team - work on how your daughter can make the team.
You are getting superb advice on this thread  
Stu11 : 9/13/2019 11:30 am : link
My daughter had a situation with JV softball last season where she made it and had high hopes. She had been an INF but couldn't crack the INF because the girls were just too good. She happily moved to the OF if it meant being in the lineup. She had a great scrimmage but pulled her hammy the next day and missed a week to 10 days of practice and boom got buried for the season. Went 2 weeks without getting an AB at one point. The coach was a kid, in way over her head and had no clue. I'm biased, but I'm very realistic about my kids in sports. I know they're limitations. The girls that were playing over her were awful. Slugs. Probably had a combined OBP of .100. I never said a word to the coach. She was frustrated as hell, but I told her to just show up do her best at every practice and take advantage of any little opportunity she got. I'd like to say it had a happy ending but it didn't. The team struggled and didn't even make the playoffs which is a crime for their talent level. She took it as a learning experience, is working harder and hopes that next season she'll get a better shot. Thankfully that coach is no longer with the district. Like everyone said, at that age get her into a rec league if she enjoys the sport. She'll play and get better and make it next year. My district they don't even let 6th graders try out for the school team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I dont understand how in a public school  
give66 : 9/13/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14573985 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14573977 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14573944 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14573887 give66 said:


Quote:


a student can be denied a spot regardless of skill level. Do they cut the weak math students out of algebra?




Yes - if you're in 8th grade, only certain kids can take algebra. The others have to wait.



I don't know about your district but in mine if the kid is capable of taking it in 8th grade and wants to they do not deny anybody no matter how much extra it costs the district.



My wife is a teacher. I have two kids in public school. I myself went to public school. I have literally never heard of this kind of course scheduling. In 99.9% of the rest of the world, kids get placed in classes based on their demonstrated abilities. A low-performing student doesn't get placed in advanced classes just ti give it a try.


My point is from the OP's post it seems his daughter is perfectly capable of playing on the volleyball team and is being denied. If she was capable of taking algebra in 8th grade there is no way she would be denied a spot in a class.
Seeing I coach  
mdthedream : 9/13/2019 11:53 am : link
high school softball and Hockey. I think the other girl will be asked to do managers type of team work. Seeing your daughter has never played Volleyball I think you complaining will only look really bad and get you know where. My daughter played volleyball in High school and started 3 years of varsity. There where girls that played 4 years and never played much in any varsity games.
give66  
mdthedream : 9/13/2019 11:54 am : link
No the other girl is most likely not playing.
RE: give66  
give66 : 9/13/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14574022 mdthedream said:
Quote:
No the other girl is most likely not playing.


Its a public school. They all should be playing
RE: RE: give66  
Chris in Philly : 9/13/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14574066 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574022 mdthedream said:


Quote:


No the other girl is most likely not playing.



Its a public school. They all should be playing


Public..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2019 12:26 pm : link
schools should play all of their players??

I think you meant to say an entry level rec league team....
Some people have a really warped view of sports  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 12:28 pm : link
and public schools.


a. there is a finite number of players most sports teams can accept, there are very few "everybody makes the team' sports in competitive sports.

b. there is also no expectation that "everyone plays" even in public schools.

it's not surprising that some kids have entitlement mentality when adults have these perceptions.
RE: RE: RE: give66  
give66 : 9/13/2019 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14574068 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14574066 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574022 mdthedream said:


Quote:


No the other girl is most likely not playing.



Its a public school. They all should be playing




Cute meme(you hitting that?) but just because it has been done this way for so long doesn't make it right.
RE: RE: RE: RE: give66  
Chris in Philly : 9/13/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14574081 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574068 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


In comment 14574066 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574022 mdthedream said:


Quote:


No the other girl is most likely not playing.



Its a public school. They all should be playing






Cute meme(you hitting that?) but just because it has been done this way for so long doesn't make it right.


HAHAHA! A sex joke! Hilarious!

OK, so say the school has 1000 students and 200 want to play on the soccer team. Do 200 kids make the soccer team? Do you hire 9 more coaches and make 10 soccer teams? I am not sure you are thinking this one through to the conclusion.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: give66  
give66 : 9/13/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14574085 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14574081 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574068 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


In comment 14574066 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574022 mdthedream said:


Quote:


No the other girl is most likely not playing.



Its a public school. They all should be playing






Cute meme(you hitting that?) but just because it has been done this way for so long doesn't make it right.



HAHAHA! A sex joke! Hilarious!

OK, so say the school has 1000 students and 200 want to play on the soccer team. Do 200 kids make the soccer team? Do you hire 9 more coaches and make 10 soccer teams? I am not sure you are thinking this one through to the conclusion.


Yes I am thinking it through.
RE:  
Mr. Bungle : 9/13/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14573952 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
My son plays soccer.

This post is glorious.
What??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2019 12:36 pm : link
Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.

You're getting great advice here and the benefit of lots of experience  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:38 pm : link
Teach her to work harder and keep trying. It doesn't mean that volleyball isn't her sport either; just needs more experience and practice.

But be mindful of alternatives; she might find her true passion. I remember trying out for HS basketball and getting cut and then joining the drama club instead. Got me beat up all the time. So, maybe choose wisely.
RE: What??  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.


The next level is...and you actually do hear this a lot, even for varsity sports...is that all the kids on the team should get to play (even equal times)...because it's not about winning.
RE: What??  
give66 : 9/13/2019 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.

No divine rights or entitlement. If you are capable and willing to put in the work you should play just like in any other part of school. If that takes 1 coach or twenty coaches it doesnt matter.
RE: RE: What??  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14574104 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.



No divine rights or entitlement. If you are capable and willing to put in the work you should play just like in any other part of school. If that takes 1 coach or twenty coaches it doesnt matter.


Must be nice to live in a school district with no limit on budgets and no knowledge of competition or reality
RE: RE: What??  
give66 : 9/13/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14574100 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.




The next level is...and you actually do hear this a lot, even for varsity sports...is that all the kids on the team should get to play (even equal times)...because it's not about winning.


Totally agree with that. It is not about winning, Its about learning and growing
RE: RE: What??  
pjcas18 : 9/13/2019 12:45 pm : link
In comment 14574104 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.



No divine rights or entitlement. If you are capable and willing to put in the work you should play just like in any other part of school. If that takes 1 coach or twenty coaches it doesnt matter.


this is the hill you are going to die on?

my high school had 200 kids try out for our hockey team.

20 kids made it.

you think because the other 180 kids were technically capable and willing to put in the work they should play?

RE: RE: RE: What??  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14574109 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574100 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.




The next level is...and you actually do hear this a lot, even for varsity sports...is that all the kids on the team should get to play (even equal times)...because it's not about winning.



Totally agree with that. It is not about winning, Its about learning and growing


And everyone should get the same grade in algebra.
Wait a minute...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2019 12:46 pm : link
so if I'm diligent about studying brain surgery and attend every class and do all the assignments, I should automatically become a doctor and be allowed to operate?

Hey - I know who can be my first victim, um er patient!!
RE: Wait a minute...  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14574116 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so if I'm diligent about studying brain surgery and attend every class and do all the assignments, I should automatically become a doctor and be allowed to operate?

Hey - I know who can be my first victim, um er patient!!

I'm not sure he could qualify.
RE: RE: RE: What??  
give66 : 9/13/2019 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14574111 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574104 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.



No divine rights or entitlement. If you are capable and willing to put in the work you should play just like in any other part of school. If that takes 1 coach or twenty coaches it doesnt matter.



this is the hill you are going to die on?

my high school had 200 kids try out for our hockey team.

20 kids made it.

you think because the other 180 kids were technically capable and willing to put in the work they should play?

Yes. It is a public service and we are all equal citizens.
You honestly would field a scholastic varisty team with 200 players  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:52 pm : link
and thne play them all equally because it's a public service.

"here you go in for 6 seconds, and then you go in for seconds, and then ..."
RE: RE: RE: RE: What??  
Heisenberg : 9/13/2019 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14574125 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574111 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574104 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574094 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why is it "right" for every person to play? This entitlement shit has gotten fucking ridiculous.

There isn't some God-given right that if you play on a team that you are given any chance to succeed. It doesn't work that way in sports and it doesn't work that way in life.



No divine rights or entitlement. If you are capable and willing to put in the work you should play just like in any other part of school. If that takes 1 coach or twenty coaches it doesnt matter.



this is the hill you are going to die on?

my high school had 200 kids try out for our hockey team.

20 kids made it.

you think because the other 180 kids were technically capable and willing to put in the work they should play?



Yes. It is a public service and we are all equal citizens.


this has to be trolling
The truth is  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 12:54 pm : link
and it should be patently obvious..

when it comes to athletic ability (and almost any other trait), we are assuredly *not* equal citizens.
Youth sports - the best of times, the worst of times.  
GiantsUA : 9/13/2019 1:06 pm : link
If you kid really likes a sport and is willing to do the work, give them every advantage to succeed.

I should have gotten my daughter some instruction early on with B-ball, would have helped big time.

Did not make the same mistake with my son and he thrived.

After about 28 school sports seasons, my one observation I wanted to pass along is that most parents are never happy:

1) kid makes team but not playing - not happy

2) Kid makes team, plays, but does not play enough - not happy

3) Kid make team plays, but does not play the position the parents want them to play - not happy

4) Kid makes team, plays, plays the position that the parent thinks they should play, but doesn't get the ball enough - not happy

and so on......
RE: RE:  
Greg from LI : 9/13/2019 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14574092 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 14573952 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


My son plays soccer.


This post is glorious.


I have failed as a father, yes
Your daughter  
Pete in MD : 9/13/2019 1:30 pm : link
and the three other girls who were cut should find a place to put up a net and play some 2-on-2 on a regular basis. They will most likely improve their skills and have fun while doing so.
This is a great opportunity for you and your daughter  
GiantJake : 9/13/2019 1:51 pm : link
Tell her that you think she's great and you are proud of her efforts, but she is new to the sport and in life we have to work for what we want. Now we know what you want. Let's work and learn and go get it next year. I would certainly address the special needs child and how the coach was using the last roster spot to do a good thing. If she really wants to play then the training for next year starts now. If you can find a private or club team willing to take her...great. If not, plan B is to do research together and create a practice regimen to get her ready for next season. Reading other posts and having gone through all sorts of sports with my son, sitting at the end of the bench and not getting playing time is tough. Since your daughter is inexperienced in the sport, there is lot's to learn and lots of room for her to improve. Support her, guide her, learn the ins and outs of the game. Learn the rules. Try to take her to the local high school volleyball games. Maybe you can pick the brain of the coach or your daughter could help out with the team in exchange for learning. Work on fitness and lateral movement. Leaping and timing. Serving. It will be a journey you can share and she will walk into tryouts next season with way more knowledge, skills and confidence than she did in her first go around. Good luck.
There has to be  
phil in arizona : 9/13/2019 2:17 pm : link
some sort of other independent league/teams or workshops outside of school. I'd look and sign her up for one of those.

She'll probably learn more there anyways. A lot of school coaches have no idea what they are doing. They'll tell the kids to do drills and hustle, but probably won't really give any real individualized instructions on the finer points of technique.

If you sign her up for regular workshops with a real pro or former pro (someone with an AVP Ranking) and you'll look like a hero.
Best of luck  
phil in arizona : 9/13/2019 2:19 pm : link
btw.

(and please ignore the 'and' from the last sentence in my past)
RE: The truth is  
give66 : 9/13/2019 2:20 pm : link
In comment 14574130 Bill L said:
Quote:
and it should be patently obvious..

when it comes to athletic ability (and almost any other trait), we are assuredly *not* equal citizens.

Agreed we are not equal in our abilities but that doesn't mean the services meted out by government should be biased in favor of people with higher ability.
RE: RE: The truth is  
Bill L : 9/13/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14574297 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574130 Bill L said:


Quote:


and it should be patently obvious..

when it comes to athletic ability (and almost any other trait), we are assuredly *not* equal citizens.


Agreed we are not equal in our abilities but that doesn't mean the services meted out by government should be biased in favor of people with higher ability.

What are you talking about. SPorts is not an entitlement program, it's a competitive venture.
My daughter just entered sixth grade as well.  
Darth Paul : 9/13/2019 2:29 pm : link
She plays soccer, everyone made the team. 29 girls on a middle school team. 6th 7th and 8th. That can obviously solve the problem but the coach may be obligated to play everybody. Some have never played and are awful.

The recommendation would be to have your daughter practice and improve. My daughter plays on a travel soccer team (year up) and is a keeper. She won't play keeper at first on this team because she's in sixth grade. The 8th grade keeper will get to play. They don't look at who's good and who's bad as much as their ages. She is going to come off the bench and play the field.

I think it's part of the learning process of life that kids need to know not everything is handed to them.

Her older brother I invested time and money on a hitting coach. After three years he makes any team he tries out for and always starts. If you have a big bat they will always find a spot for you.

You mentioned your daughter never played volleyball before. if she is extremely interested and really wants to do it then spend the time working with her to get her skills up and if she eclipses you are skills get her a Coach that can help her do that. If she can jump real high and block the ball they will find a spot for her, if she can serve real well and dig on the back line they will find a spot for her. At 11 I think it's important just for them to find something they like to do and they can work at. They are kids have a need to have fun at the same time.
This reminds me of that...  
Ryan : 9/13/2019 2:36 pm : link
....story of the Canadian town that has a soccer league that plays their games without a ball to try and shelter kids from the “harmful effects of competition”.
No one wants to hear parents complain about their little darlings  
lawguy9801 : 9/13/2019 4:00 pm : link
I wouldn't complain either. I would tell your daughter to practice and develop her skills, try out again next year, and make the coach notice her. If she enjoys the sport, I'm sure there is a volleyball clinic or league in your area she can join to improve her ability.
Sports..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2019 4:10 pm : link
are services meted out by Government??

You should get a participation ribbon for Delusion Class....
RE: RE: RE: What??  
bw in dc : 9/13/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14574109 give66 said:
Quote:


Totally agree with that. It is not about winning, Its about learning and growing


Are you Bernie or Roz Focker?
RE: Sports..  
give66 : 9/13/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14574428 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are services meted out by Government??

You should get a participation ribbon for Delusion Class....


Who's paying for the coaches, uniforms, fields,refs etc Santa Claus?
At 6th grade count me in camp  
bhill410 : 9/14/2019 7:18 am : link
Where there should be enough teams to accommodate all kids at least in the bellweather sports. Maybe you fold say volleyball and provide the resources to basketball and soccer (6th grade volleyball team is kind of crazy) and have say the basketball team have 3 squads if you have 1k kids. Obviously can’t do that in hs nor should you but at 6/7th grade level being on a team is more important than most classes you will take.

It’s obviously not allowed in public schools but my high school essentially cut gym and ensured that through sophomore year 90% of the kids were on a sports team. (Fielded two freshman basketball teams + jv + varsity for instance). Which do you think was better for the fringe athletes - gym or a team?
RE: RE: Sports..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/14/2019 8:15 am : link
In comment 14574437 give66 said:
Quote:
In comment 14574428 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


are services meted out by Government??

You should get a participation ribbon for Delusion Class....



Who's paying for the coaches, uniforms, fields,refs etc Santa Claus?


Depends on the sport. My son plays lacrosse. It is self-funded. I guess that gives them liberty to be heartless bastards while those funded by the school district have to play all comers, right??

It is such a moronic stance.
I coached youth lacrosse in our rec league  
oghwga : 9/14/2019 8:38 am : link
When it started. If you paid the fee, you made the team. We had too many kids at the 5th/6th level. 26 on our team. Every kid came to practice and worked hard, some stunk anyway. They all deserved equal playing time. I wore a stopwatch around my neck and switched lines every four minutes.

It was a nightmare.
RE: RE: RE: Sports..  
give66 : 9/14/2019 8:47 am : link
In comment 14574767 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14574437 give66 said:


Quote:


In comment 14574428 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


are services meted out by Government??

You should get a participation ribbon for Delusion Class....



Who's paying for the coaches, uniforms, fields,refs etc Santa Claus?



Depends on the sport. My son plays lacrosse. It is self-funded. I guess that gives them liberty to be heartless bastards while those funded by the school district have to play all comers, right??

It is such a moronic stance.

Sorry if you cant wrap your head around the paradox I am pointing out.
If we have 100 physics students who are capable of passing we don't say well we will only take the top twenty students and the rest of you can go pound sand come back next year. We must have competition! Only the best can participate in Physics. How would we ever hire 4 extra teachers for these 80 students anyway? Yet we accept this situation in athletics.
If these sports teams are so important that the schools should provide them then anyone that is capable should be accommodated in some way to participate.
That’s dumb  
Bill L : 9/14/2019 9:34 am : link
Classes, including physics classes, get over-subscribed all the time. When you get to be college-age, and if you go, you’ll see that there’s just some classes you can’t take when you want them because there’s no space.
Add me to the consensus:  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/14/2019 10:37 am : link
You are right, and your wife is wrong. If she follows through on her impulse, your whole family - especially your daughter - is likely to pay an awful price. Even if that doesn't happen, even if the helicopter dragon gets her way and your daughter is restored to the team, the message she's sending your daughter is disgusting and destructive.

They both need to get it through their heads that your daughter's exclusion has absolutely nothing to do with the disabled girl's inclusion. Nothing. Zero. Nada. If it were possible to decouple the issues, maybe you could tactfully raise the question of why anyone has to be cut. Under the circumstances, though, it's going to be difficult to keep the subjects separate. Hence, best to let your daughter back away with dignity, work on her game and try again next fall.
Definitely do not make a case out of this one.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/14/2019 10:55 am : link
As disappointed as your child may be, it is the wrong path to pursue.
By the way, the disabled girl and her family may being more...  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/14/2019 11:19 am : link
...to the team than just sympathy and "mascot" value. There are lots of ways to be a great teammate. The coaches may see something that will make the team better, stronger, more resilient, more cohesive, more whatever. I also think all those other 12/13-year-old girls will learn something from having her as a teammate that's way more important in the long run than a perfect scissor.
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner