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Pound The Rock

dairborn : 9/15/2019 6:30 pm
The first drive was all runs...we ran it down their throats. Why stop? Make them stop you! Run it again on that second drive. Barkley finished with almost a 6 yard per run average on only 18 carries. I know we were behind later on but we only had 20 runs to 45 passes? We are up and they have yet to stop us. I keep screaming at the TV to POUND THE FUCKING ROCK. I didn't want to jump into the some of the over excitement with the D or Eli last week, or the play calling, but for God sake, get the ball in the hands of your play maker.

One other note...lack of creativity to get Barkley the ball in space when we do pass. What the Hell? I thought our H.C. was supposed to be creative. Only 3 catches on 7 targets and several of those ones that fell to the ground were throw-a-ways.

Looks like another long season. We seemed to play at little better then last week, but time is running out.

Not getting Barkley  
jvm52106 : 9/15/2019 6:35 pm : link
the ball in space is an absolute crime!
Lack  
Toth029 : 9/15/2019 6:39 pm : link
Of creativity and the pass happiness is absurd.

Your top two WRs are out and they have 45 passes? Come on.
My issue with `  
Daniel in MI : 9/15/2019 7:01 pm : link
this type of coaching is they want to take what the D gives instead of dictating and making THEM react. So, we have basically what seems like a read and react offense. They take away X then we try to do Y. Well, so they'll stack on SB and try and make us throw by alignment, and we seem happy to oblige rather than creating different ways to get SB the ball in space and making them react.

The D is happy every time they make us go away from SB. How about more creativity to get him the rock. Like, where is SB on a wheel route? Where is a fake screen to EE and screen SB other way. Motion him out wide. We hit SB after the play fake underneath just once that I recall. Or, how about overload with Ellison and a backup OL and shove them off the ball, just try to overpower and impose your will on them old school. Or if they want to crowd the box, how about spread five wide and then run it. How about a flea flicker off the run fake? Just....something to make THEM adjust to what we're going to do. And when it works, do it until they stop it.

As a side note, our style presumably is to take advantage of Eli's ability to get us in the right play, but it's not exactly been lighting the world on fire. And we take forever at the LOS. When we're behind we need to get up there and go, not sit there until 3 on the play clock reading the D, then adjusting to their adjustments. DICTATE TO THEM.
Said the same.  
GiantGrit : 9/15/2019 7:02 pm : link
2nd drive - one run & then 3 shotgun passes. Why outsmart yourself?

The whole world knows you're not beating anyone over the top with the WR's we trotted out there today. Run the ball under center, sprinkle in the bootlegs and on 1st and 2nd down sprinkle in play action shots down the field to keep the secondary honest / from creeping up.

But the other issue is Eli can't throw down the field anymore. Or maybe he doesn't want to. I don't know anymore.
It's not the coaching  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 7:02 pm : link
it's the players. We're not good.
To be fair, after that drive Barkley wasn't exactly lighting it up on  
BestFeature : 9/15/2019 7:04 pm : link
the ground when given the opportunity.
RE: It's not the coaching  
since1925 : 9/15/2019 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:
Quote:
it's the players. We're not good.


It's the coaches. And the players. But mostly the coaches.
Shurmur is an idiot  
justafan : 9/15/2019 7:06 pm : link
I've lost faith in him.
RE: RE: It's not the coaching  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 7:07 pm : link
In comment 14578370 since1925 said:
Quote:
In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:


Quote:


it's the players. We're not good.



It's the coaches. And the players. But mostly the coaches.


It's the players.
I'm not indirectly taking shots at DG either  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 7:10 pm : link
This team is in transition and what we're seeing is a part of it.
RE: To be fair, after that drive Barkley wasn't exactly lighting it up on  
Matt M. : 9/15/2019 7:17 pm : link
In comment 14578366 BestFeature said:
Quote:
the ground when given the opportunity.
That's mostly due to the playcalling. The first drive called runs that were designed for the G-T gap or the edge. After that, he got mostly runs right up the middle, even though Buffalo likes to stack the box. They went completely away from what worked and went away from concentrating on the run in general. It's almost as if they look at the first drive success as establishing the run, so they can move on to passing.

Also, wasn't only the 2nd drive where after one nice run by Barkley, they went to Gallman the rest of the shitty drive? Why?
Bullshit  
dairborn : 9/15/2019 7:23 pm : link
Barkley Got pulled from the game on the 2nd drive....WHY?
RE: RE: RE: It's not the coaching  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2019 7:26 pm : link
In comment 14578382 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 14578370 since1925 said:


Quote:


In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:


Quote:


it's the players. We're not good.



It's the coaches. And the players. But mostly the coaches.



It's the players.


Saying it twice doesnít make it true. A ton is on the players, but not getting Barkley the ball in interesting ways is absurd. That Panthers offense is pretty bad too and I constantly see CMC getting the ball all over the place. Cam is pitiful passer yet they pull it off.

Eli is finished but thatís got nothing to do with moving Barkley around.
RE: It's not the coaching  
Eman11 : 9/15/2019 7:27 pm : link
In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:
Quote:
it's the players. We're not good.


I'm not sure what you're watching but good coaches play to their player's strengths. They don't force players to adapt to their scheme but rather adapt their scheme to what the players do best. This staff doesn't do that.

Look only at the fact we're down to our 4th WR and throwing the ball 40+ times. Those guys aren't going to fit the scheme you want to run.

Figure out a way to use what you have the best way possible even if it's a heavy 3TE look and run it down their throats with your best player. Get SB out in the passing game but to rely on the WR's we trotted out there today to make his scheme work is asinine. Square peg, round hole.
How about some two back sets  
dairborn : 9/15/2019 7:33 pm : link
Bring Barkley and Gallman on the field together. Move Barkley out to the slot and create a miss match. Gallman can pass protect and still serve as an pretty good outlet pass if needed. I mean come on Coach. At least now you have your best play maker out there to make a play who only needs a step. Seems nuts to me that on the time we are passing our best player is having to help pass protect and while needed that's just a waist.

I'll take Barkley lining up anywhere vs some of our WR's that are on the lower end of the dept chart. Everytime!
RE: My issue with `  
gmenatlarge : 9/15/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14578352 Daniel in MI said:
Quote:
this type of coaching is they want to take what the D gives instead of dictating and making THEM react. So, we have basically what seems like a read and react offense. They take away X then we try to do Y. Well, so they'll stack on SB and try and make us throw by alignment, and we seem happy to oblige rather than creating different ways to get SB the ball in space and making them react.

The D is happy every time they make us go away from SB. How about more creativity to get him the rock. Like, where is SB on a wheel route? Where is a fake screen to EE and screen SB other way. Motion him out wide. We hit SB after the play fake underneath just once that I recall. Or, how about overload with Ellison and a backup OL and shove them off the ball, just try to overpower and impose your will on them old school. Or if they want to crowd the box, how about spread five wide and then run it. How about a flea flicker off the run fake? Just....something to make THEM adjust to what we're going to do. And when it works, do it until they stop it.

As a side note, our style presumably is to take advantage of Eli's ability to get us in the right play, but it's not exactly been lighting the world on fire. And we take forever at the LOS. When we're behind we need to get up there and go, not sit there until 3 on the play clock reading the D, then adjusting to their adjustments. DICTATE TO THEM.


+1 It almost seems like when something works Shurmurhas no clue how to follow that up or take advantage of the defense.
RE: How about some two back sets  
Eman11 : 9/15/2019 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14578464 dairborn said:
Quote:
Bring Barkley and Gallman on the field together. Move Barkley out to the slot and create a miss match. Gallman can pass protect and still serve as an pretty good outlet pass if needed. I mean come on Coach. At least now you have your best play maker out there to make a play who only needs a step. Seems nuts to me that on the time we are passing our best player is having to help pass protect and while needed that's just a waist.

I'll take Barkley lining up anywhere vs some of our WR's that are on the lower end of the dept chart. Everytime!


Yep. That's coaching and you can bet your ass BB, Payton and Andy Reid would move Barkley all over to get a mismatch.

I'm usually one to blame players first but I'm really starting to question this staff on both sides of the ball more and more. We're not just getting outplayed but out coached as well.
RE: RE: It's not the coaching  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14578450 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:


Quote:


it's the players. We're not good.



I'm not sure what you're watching but good coaches play to their player's strengths. They don't force players to adapt to their scheme but rather adapt their scheme to what the players do best. This staff doesn't do that.

Look only at the fact we're down to our 4th WR and throwing the ball 40+ times. Those guys aren't going to fit the scheme you want to run.

Figure out a way to use what you have the best way possible even if it's a heavy 3TE look and run it down their throats with your best player. Get SB out in the passing game but to rely on the WR's we trotted out there today to make his scheme work is asinine. Square peg, round hole.


Shurmur ain't perfect and I certainly have issues with some of the playcalling as well but our run efficiency took a nose dive after the first drive. When you fall behind two scores early and you're not getting yards on early downs when you run the ball...you're going to pass. They need to figure out more ways to get Barkley the ball through the air because sometimes the gamescript and lack of execution forces your hand.

We all love to blame the coaches but the Cowboys and Bills have more talent.
Absolutely no reason  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 7:45 pm : link
not to run Barkley more on short yardage and Gallman shouldn't see a snap in the 1st quarter, so I'm not saying he's perfect either. But this team isn't very good either and players around Barkley aren't putting the coaches in spots to make easy decisions.
dude  
dairborn : 9/15/2019 7:47 pm : link
Quote:
In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:


Quote:


it's the players. We're not good.



I'm not sure what you're watching but good coaches play to their player's strengths. They don't force players to adapt to their scheme but rather adapt their scheme to what the players do best. This staff doesn't do that.

Look only at the fact we're down to our 4th WR and throwing the ball 40+ times. Those guys aren't going to fit the scheme you want to run.

Figure out a way to use what you have the best way possible even if it's a heavy 3TE look and run it down their throats with your best player. Get SB out in the passing game but to rely on the WR's we trotted out there today to make his scheme work is asinine. Square peg, round hole.


Shurmur ain't perfect and I certainly have issues with some of the playcalling as well but our run efficiency took a nose dive after the first drive. When you fall behind two scores early and you're not getting yards on early downs when you run the ball...you're going to pass. They need to figure out more ways to get Barkley the ball through the air because sometimes the gamescript and lack of execution forces your hand.

We all love to blame the coaches but the Cowboys and Bills have more talent.


Dude they took Barkley out of the game after the first run they stopped and Gallman came into the game. Run it again coach. 1 of 6 your still ahead in the count. He gets too cute!
RE: RE: RE: It's not the coaching  
Eman11 : 9/15/2019 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14578487 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 14578450 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14578357 AcesUp said:


Quote:


it's the players. We're not good.



I'm not sure what you're watching but good coaches play to their player's strengths. They don't force players to adapt to their scheme but rather adapt their scheme to what the players do best. This staff doesn't do that.

Look only at the fact we're down to our 4th WR and throwing the ball 40+ times. Those guys aren't going to fit the scheme you want to run.

Figure out a way to use what you have the best way possible even if it's a heavy 3TE look and run it down their throats with your best player. Get SB out in the passing game but to rely on the WR's we trotted out there today to make his scheme work is asinine. Square peg, round hole.



Shurmur ain't perfect and I certainly have issues with some of the playcalling as well but our run efficiency took a nose dive after the first drive. When you fall behind two scores early and you're not getting yards on early downs when you run the ball...you're going to pass. They need to figure out more ways to get Barkley the ball through the air because sometimes the gamescript and lack of execution forces your hand.

We all love to blame the coaches but the Cowboys and Bills have more talent.


Agreed about getting SB the ball in the passing game but that's coaching no?

I know we're not the Eagles but I watched them last week. They fell behind 17-0 and came out and said fuck it we're going to play to our strength which is their OL and ran it right down the Skins throats for their first score and got right back into the game. They didn't throw it 50 times to try and play catch up. They did what they're strong at and got themselves righted,

Us being down two scores didn't mean we had to go all pass happy, especially since we were down so many WR's. If we had three top guys there and that was our strength then fine, but that wasn't and isn't the case.

After the first drive Buffalo did like the cowturds did, they 8 and 9  
SterlingArcher : 9/15/2019 7:54 pm : link
in the box to stop Barkley. When Eli completed a few passes the back off and Barkley had a little room. How much success would Barkley have had running against 8 and 9 man fronts?
exactly  
dairborn : 9/15/2019 7:55 pm : link
Quote:
Agreed about getting SB the ball in the passing game but that's coaching no?

I know we're not the Eagles but I watched them last week. They fell behind 17-0 and came out and said fuck it we're going to play to our strength which is their OL and ran it right down the Skins throats for their first score and got right back into the game. They didn't throw it 50 times to try and play catch up. They did what they're strong at and got themselves righted,

Us being down two scores didn't mean we had to go all pass happy, especially since we were down so many WR's. If we had three top guys there and that was our strength then fine, but that wasn't and isn't the case.


I agree, we added a whole new right side to the line. SB can break any run to a big gainer. Look at what he is doing with less then 20 carries a game. Keep pounding it on 1st and 2nd down. Especially in this game with your injuries at WR or at least until they stop you. PS is getting too cute and overthinking in my opinion.
It certainly is  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 7:57 pm : link
And like I said, Shurmur is not clean in this 0-2 start. But it's mostly talent. We're not there. The Eagles have a little more juice to make a comeback than we do. I love Barkley, he's the best back in the league, but there's only so much you can do when your best player starts out so close to the line of scrimmage and he can't throw the ball. He'll make a good offense great but there isn't a coach in the league outside of Belichick that can make him carry us when 38 year old Eli is throwing the ball to Bennie Fowler and TJ Jones vs one of the better Ds in the league.
SO WHAT?  
dairborn : 9/15/2019 7:59 pm : link
Quote:
After the first drive Buffalo did like the cowturds did, they 8 and 9
SterlingArcher : 7:54 pm : link : reply
in the box to stop Barkley. When Eli completed a few passes the back off and Barkley had a little room. How much success would Barkley have had running against 8 and 9 man fronts?


Keep pounding it. NO, we go shotgun and pull our best player out of the game. They stopped you 1 time out of six. Keep running and then mix in a little play action. We threw one deep pass the whole game. No back to dink and dunk crap!
RE: After the first drive Buffalo did like the cowturds did, they 8 and 9  
Eman11 : 9/15/2019 8:04 pm : link
In comment 14578531 SterlingArcher said:
Quote:
in the box to stop Barkley. When Eli completed a few passes the back off and Barkley had a little room. How much success would Barkley have had running against 8 and 9 man fronts?


He did ok on the first drive the couple of times they had 8 men in the box. Defenses are susceptible to getting one taken to the house when they're playing that. They better get the stop because a guy like SB only needs a crease to break off a long one.

Personally, I'd rather load up and take my chances with him doing that than throwing it 40+ times to our #'s 4-6 WR's against a team with good CB's and a strong 4-man pass rush.

If we had top quality WR's out there I could understand thinking they could get it done but that wasn't the case. It felt like we were banging our heads on a wall. Again, square peg round hole coaching IMO.
RE: It certainly is  
Eman11 : 9/15/2019 8:14 pm : link
In comment 14578536 AcesUp said:
Quote:
And like I said, Shurmur is not clean in this 0-2 start. But it's mostly talent. We're not there. The Eagles have a little more juice to make a comeback than we do. I love Barkley, he's the best back in the league, but there's only so much you can do when your best player starts out so close to the line of scrimmage and he can't throw the ball. He'll make a good offense great but there isn't a coach in the league outside of Belichick that can make him carry us when 38 year old Eli is throwing the ball to Bennie Fowler and TJ Jones vs one of the better Ds in the league.


My point about the Eagles wasn't about how we compare talent wise, it was how they went to their strength. That's what we failed to do and that's on the coach. Not the players or our lack of talent.

Figure out your strengths and play to them,don't try and make players play to a scheme that doesn't fit their strengths.

RE: RE: It certainly is  
AcesUp : 9/15/2019 8:27 pm : link
In comment 14578570 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14578536 AcesUp said:


Quote:


And like I said, Shurmur is not clean in this 0-2 start. But it's mostly talent. We're not there. The Eagles have a little more juice to make a comeback than we do. I love Barkley, he's the best back in the league, but there's only so much you can do when your best player starts out so close to the line of scrimmage and he can't throw the ball. He'll make a good offense great but there isn't a coach in the league outside of Belichick that can make him carry us when 38 year old Eli is throwing the ball to Bennie Fowler and TJ Jones vs one of the better Ds in the league.



My point about the Eagles wasn't about how we compare talent wise, it was how they went to their strength. That's what we failed to do and that's on the coach. Not the players or our lack of talent.

Figure out your strengths and play to them,don't try and make players play to a scheme that doesn't fit their strengths.


Our strengths are so obvious and easy to contain though. The Eagles have a better OL, QB and skill players (outside of Barkley). I'm not saying there aren't ways to get Barkley more involved, there certainly are and I've screamed them at the TV...but we're really talking about decisions that might help this team cover the spread more than win games. We have a talent problem, that's the obvious issue. It might be coaching too but it's not like they're running downhill here.
RE: RE: RE: It certainly is  
Eman11 : 9/15/2019 8:46 pm : link
In comment 14578601 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 14578570 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14578536 AcesUp said:


Quote:


And like I said, Shurmur is not clean in this 0-2 start. But it's mostly talent. We're not there. The Eagles have a little more juice to make a comeback than we do. I love Barkley, he's the best back in the league, but there's only so much you can do when your best player starts out so close to the line of scrimmage and he can't throw the ball. He'll make a good offense great but there isn't a coach in the league outside of Belichick that can make him carry us when 38 year old Eli is throwing the ball to Bennie Fowler and TJ Jones vs one of the better Ds in the league.



My point about the Eagles wasn't about how we compare talent wise, it was how they went to their strength. That's what we failed to do and that's on the coach. Not the players or our lack of talent.

Figure out your strengths and play to them,don't try and make players play to a scheme that doesn't fit their strengths.




Our strengths are so obvious and easy to contain though. The Eagles have a better OL, QB and skill players (outside of Barkley). I'm not saying there aren't ways to get Barkley more involved, there certainly are and I've screamed them at the TV...but we're really talking about decisions that might help this team cover the spread more than win games. We have a talent problem, that's the obvious issue. It might be coaching too but it's not like they're running downhill here.


It is coaching though when they don't pay to the strengths they have.

When we're down to our #'s 4-6 WR's, why would you go so much towards that? How about loading up and pounding SB right down their throats. He might get stuffed a couple of times but he sure might break one too,

Once they're loaded up to stop him, play action to Engram would be a nice option as well. Did we see any of that today? No. Instead we got a heavy heavy dose of Eli in shotgun and a pass happy ineffective O. Bad coaching IMO.
Other than Barkley who have we got  
Giant John : 9/15/2019 9:34 pm : link
That will scare a defense? Our receivers are the absolute worst in the league. Yet we refused to draft even one guy that might take the top off a defense. Stop Barkley and you beat the Giants. Because the rest of that team is playing like garbage. Defense does not get a pass either. Just pathetic.
More like  
Jimmy Googs : 9/15/2019 10:18 pm : link
pound the beer
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