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Eli is 26th in QBR

WideRight : 9/16/2019 8:47 am
His O-line has improved and he has a running game, so we are down to two excuses:

1) Eli needs better receivers. While the group leaves something to be desired, it seems very self-serving to blame to o-line one year and the receivers the next. And better receivers wouldn't improve his accuracy, increase
his mobility or decrease his blocked passes...

2) QBR is a poor indicator of performance. Quants can go at this one. But from the looks of it, Eli is at least one standard deviation below average, so the chance that this is wrong is less than 5%.

If you want to claim the sample size is small, answer this: Do you want a larger one?




QBR - ( New Window )
Number one  
cjac : 9/16/2019 8:48 am : link
in your hearts
Poor receivers are a fact you can't ignore  
GiantEgo : 9/16/2019 8:50 am : link
If all the WR's that played for the Giants yesterday were cut probably none would be picked up by other teams.
I think it is pretty clear  
English Alaister : 9/16/2019 8:50 am : link
that even if Eli isn't the problem we are not winning anything this year so Jones need to start as soon as Tate and Shep are back.

We need to get a read on Jones before what could be a very high draft pick.
I'd be happy to blame Eli  
islander1 : 9/16/2019 8:54 am : link
if we actually had NFL receivers.
Getting the job done  
The_Boss : 9/16/2019 8:54 am : link
👍
Right now  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2019 8:55 am : link
Eli needs a perfect situation to succeed (if he can succeed), he needs a good OL, good WR's, a good running game, good coaching/play calling, and even a good defense (debatable on this one, but still don't see him playing "catch up").

At one time, Eli could thrive with one (or maybe even 2) of those were lacking, but not any more.
RE: I'd be happy to blame Eli  
exiled : 9/16/2019 8:56 am : link
Quote:
if we actually had NFL receivers.

Exactly
RE: I'd be happy to blame Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2019 8:59 am : link
In comment 14579489 islander1 said:
Quote:
if we actually had NFL receivers.

And I'd be happy to defend Eli if his performance either way was even remotely relevant as a 38-year-old QB, in the last year of his contract, on a team this bad.

You don't have to blame Eli to realize that he's not going to be the QB by the time this POS roster is back to being competitive.
RE: Right now  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2019 9:00 am : link
In comment 14579492 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
Eli needs a perfect situation to succeed (if he can succeed), he needs a good OL, good WR's, a good running game, good coaching/play calling, and even a good defense (debatable on this one, but still don't see him playing "catch up").

This is generally the same situation that fans describe when they try to assemble the right sort of scenario for a rookie QB to succeed, not a 16 year vet who has made more money than anyone in NFL history.
I don't think we need to blame Eli  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/16/2019 9:03 am : link
but the pass that Josh Allen made when he was running to his right away from the pressure is just something that Eli can't do anymore. He used to be able to find space when things broke down but I think those days are past. The difference between the play that Allen made and what Eli is now capable of is the difference between drives continuing and stalling.

Would Eli be better with better receivers? Of course, but the reality appears to be that Eli can no longer make the off-script plays that are increasingly the difference between winning and losing.
At one point in time Eli was an Elite QB  
Capt. Don : 9/16/2019 9:03 am : link
because he elevated the play of everyone around him.

He no longer does that. It isnt even a criticism - that is just what he is right now.

He would be the perfect transitional QB for a team like the Colts. Really good offensive line and running game, receivers who create space, underrated defense, great coaching.

I love Eli, but his skill set doesnt match where this franchise is right now.
Eli is a wasted roster spot now  
averagejoe : 9/16/2019 9:09 am : link
The minute DG picked Jones at 6 over Allen any hope for this season was gone. That pick is a pick for the future. A future that does not include Eli Manning. He should have been released the day after draft and team should have been handed over to Jones. Jones needs to play NOW. He is mobile and breaking the pocket he will be able to extend plays. He will make mistakes that lose games - so what ?He will learn and Giants will be better for it. You will see how much better Barkley and WR's look when Jones extends plays. Let the kid play!
Been Saying This for a While  
Jim in Tampa : 9/16/2019 9:11 am : link
I did some research on QBR at the end of last season and tracked Eli and his contemporaries...Brady, Brees, Big Ben and Rivers. I was going to post a thread about it but ultimately I decided not to post the info because there were already so many "Eli sucks" threads.

But from my memory, here are some things that stood out for me:

Eli's QBR the last three years has been 26th, 25th and 26th. (Not sure which year he was 25th.)

During the last 10 years Brady and Brees finished out of the top 10 in QBR just once, when Brady finished 12th.

And I beleive (although not 100% sure) that Eli has finished in the top 10 in QBR just 3 times in his career and never higher than 8th. (It's possible that it's 4 times, but still a relatively small number based on 14 years of QBR stats.)

If QBR is a useless stat then why is it that two of the top QBs over the last decade somehow always (except for Brady's one year at 12) finish in the top 10?

And why when Eli DID have better support didn't he finish in the top 10 more often?
RE: Been Saying This for a While  
chuckydee9 : 9/16/2019 9:23 am : link
In comment 14579543 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
I did some research on QBR at the end of last season and tracked Eli and his contemporaries...Brady, Brees, Big Ben and Rivers. I was going to post a thread about it but ultimately I decided not to post the info because there were already so many "Eli sucks" threads.

But from my memory, here are some things that stood out for me:

Eli's QBR the last three years has been 26th, 25th and 26th. (Not sure which year he was 25th.)

During the last 10 years Brady and Brees finished out of the top 10 in QBR just once, when Brady finished 12th.

And I beleive (although not 100% sure) that Eli has finished in the top 10 in QBR just 3 times in his career and never higher than 8th. (It's possible that it's 4 times, but still a relatively small number based on 14 years of QBR stats.)

If QBR is a useless stat then why is it that two of the top QBs over the last decade somehow always (except for Brady's one year at 12) finish in the top 10?

And why when Eli DID have better support didn't he finish in the top 10 more often?


Eli isn't in Brady's level outside of 2011.. There are some idiots here who do compare Eli vs Brady and actually think that Brady won't be any better if he was with the Giants..
This is what Eli  
eugibs : 9/16/2019 9:24 am : link
has been since at least 2017. His lack of mobility and awareness means that any play that breaks down, or just doesn't go exactly as scripted, is a disaster (believe it or not, some NFL qbs actually thrive in those kinds of situations). He makes check down throws even when he still has time to deliver a ball further down the field. Whether it is actually the case or not, the play calling suggests that the coaches do not believe that Eli can make the throws. There are occasionally flashes of the old Eli, but week after week (now season after season), you look up at the scoreboard at the end of the game and the point total is usually not compatible with winning. The consistency to sustain multiple touchdown drives in the same game just is not there. Last year it was the offensive line and this year it is the receivers. There will always be someone else to blame, but Eli is the constant through all of this. He isn't their biggest problem. But he's also no longer part of the solution (and hasn't been for years). The Giants needed to move on 3 years ago, but at this point, I will settle for moving on today.

Also, the people who have been saying this about Eli in real time over the last three years have received a lot of heat on this board, being accused of being "Eli haters" and as being disrespectful and unappreciative of what Eli has done for the Giants. Well, here we are. Next week, Eli Manning's career record will fall under .500 (really think about that for a second - it is mind boggling and it makes me nauseous). Think about the additional damage that has been done to his legacy since he was reinserted by John Mara as the starting qb in 2017 after that embarrassing media and fan reaction to his benching. If his 2017 benching had been the end of his time with the Giants, his Giants legacy would look so much better today than it actually does (and certainly the Giants would not be any worse off than they are today). So the self-appointed protectors of Eli Manning's legacy have actually done him a great disservice in the long run.
RE: I think it is pretty clear  
Dnew15 : 9/16/2019 9:27 am : link
In comment 14579475 English Alaister said:
Quote:
that even if Eli isn't the problem we are not winning anything this year so Jones need to start as soon as Tate and Shep are back.

We need to get a read on Jones before what could be a very high draft pick.


This x100.
The Giants are absolutely drafting in the top 5, probably in the top 3 and maybe 1 or 2.

They will be in position to draft one of the top QBs in what the experts are saying is a really good QB draft class.

If Jones is the real deal - they trade out for a king's ransom of picks - if he's not - they do like the Dolphins which looks like the right move 2 games into the season.

.  
Giant Fan Dan : 9/16/2019 9:33 am : link
The WRs are garbage, and Eli's gotten old. But I'm sure he'd still be good with a better system. This is the 3rd or 4th year in a row where we hear that "they were in two deep so the play is to dump it off"
The Giants wannabe-WCO under McAdoo and now under Shurmer have been complete ugly failures. Is it because Eli sucks in a WCO? Is it because the play designs suck? Are the Giants too risk averse? Probably all that and more. I hope they start Jones next week just to watch him try to deal with the garbage receivers and play design/calling that Eli has had to endure.
Even if we had the best receivers...  
silverfox : 9/16/2019 9:37 am : link
...Eli can't seem to find the open man...his brain has checked out with check downs.
RE: I think it is pretty clear  
Bill L : 9/16/2019 9:39 am : link
In comment 14579475 English Alaister said:
Quote:
that even if Eli isn't the problem we are not winning anything this year so Jones need to start as soon as Tate and Shep are back.

We need to get a read on Jones before what could be a very high draft pick.


I'm leaning toward agreeing with this should we be 0-3, 1-4 ib the next couple of weeks. But I would bet that, even if we lost all the rest of the games after Jones started to play, that we are not going to eat the pick. I wol have wanted Fromm or Tua or Herbert back in March, but there's no way on earth that is happening now.
Its not working and it hasn''t for a long time  
Essex : 9/16/2019 9:42 am : link
that is the beginning, middle, and end of it. We can come up with theories and ideas of why, but Eli is old, we have drafted his successor, and he isn't getting the job done anymore. I don't see a single reason for starting him other than Jones is not ready. If Jones is ready or as ready as any rookie will be, it is malpractice not to play him. ELi was a great QB for this franchise and my "theory" is that this franchise let him down on the back nine of his career, but that is water under the bridge and we must move on as soon as Jones is ready. There is almost no other logical or analytical reason to play Eli.
RE: I don't think we need to blame Eli  
AcidTest : 9/16/2019 9:48 am : link
In comment 14579517 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
but the pass that Josh Allen made when he was running to his right away from the pressure is just something that Eli can't do anymore. He used to be able to find space when things broke down but I think those days are past. The difference between the play that Allen made and what Eli is now capable of is the difference between drives continuing and stalling.

Would Eli be better with better receivers? Of course, but the reality appears to be that Eli can no longer make the off-script plays that are increasingly the difference between winning and losing.


^This. Eli can't move anymore, and therefore can't extend plays or scramble for first downs, both of which are required in today's NFL. He is painfully slow and heavy footed. He can't even really move in the pocket, which partially explains all of his batted passes.
What's the QBR for the quarterback room?  
Giants61 : 9/16/2019 9:49 am : link
:)
Bill L. - I don't know if that's necessarily true  
Dnew15 : 9/16/2019 9:49 am : link
If Jones comes in for game three and completely sucks the rest of the year, the defense continues to get shredded, the coaching staff continues to make questionable decision after questionable decision....everyone might go. It's really the only chance that PS and DG get wiped out in the near future.

We will already have hit rock bottom if the DJ thing goes awry. The longer everyone puts the QB change off, the more time it buys DG, PS and the rest of the staff. Ultimately, ownership will judge their performance based on that pick (in my opinion).
I agree as well  
WideRight : 9/16/2019 9:52 am : link

Worst case scenario is we get eight games in and bring in Jones for an evaluation on a team that has essentially already quit. Players will be making "business decisions", and we won't know if we have our QB or need a redo in the 2020 draft
Eli has been finished for three years  
WillieYoung : 9/16/2019 9:54 am : link
He plods around doing a slow motion impersonation of an NFL QB, yet people on this site were convinced that, with a little more time, he could still be a great quarterback. Absolutely delusional.
RE: I agree as well  
Dnew15 : 9/16/2019 9:54 am : link
In comment 14579686 WideRight said:
Quote:

Worst case scenario is we get eight games in and bring in Jones for an evaluation on a team that has essentially already quit. Players will be making "business decisions", and we won't know if we have our QB or need a redo in the 2020 draft


I don't think that anyone has quit. Not this year or last year.
That last year under MacAdoo the Giants quit...they haven't done that..yet
They're just not good.
so tired of the excuses  
2cents : 9/16/2019 9:55 am : link
yes our wr corp isnt great right now but Eli doesnt help at all, hes completely done. you do not win with your qb starting the game 1-7, missing his first throw to a wide open engram who would have broke that slant for a big gain. We should have went up 14-0 and the game has a completely different feel. Eli has been holding this team back for the last few yrs and now more than ever.
People seem so happy to place the whole blame on Eli  
PatersonPlank : 9/16/2019 9:56 am : link
Its really strange
Eli is Eli  
AcesUp : 9/16/2019 9:57 am : link
He is exactly what he has been since 2016. We can break down this or . that but in the end he is an okay starter at the position and that has been glaringly apparent for 3+ seasons now. Okay starter doesn't cut it anywhere else on the roster but of course it's some firestorm hot button debate at QB. They at least opened their eyes this offseason but in true Giants fashion we're going to slog through this transition as well.
Said it before  
Bramton1 : 9/16/2019 10:38 am : link
I don't trust QBR. I don't trust any measurement that you can't figure out exactly how they got it. It's way too easy to add opinion to the formula, and none will be the wiser.

That said, Eli's passer rating yesterday was not good.
Itís sad that Eli is being scapegoated but heís been part of the  
Jim in Hoboken : 9/16/2019 11:10 am : link
problem, if not the biggest problem.

Itís the posters who shouted everybody down when Eli is questioned that spawn these posts.

We donít root against Eli, but whatís the point of rooting for something thatís been consistently bad?
Eli is the least of my concerns  
5BowlsSoon : 9/16/2019 11:13 am : link
I have 11 concerns on defense and 5 coaching concerns.
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