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Bettcher is not the right fit

cactus : 9/16/2019 11:01 am
Much like Spags, if he has the horses to run his aggressive schemes, he can be extremely successful. When he doesn't, you get the feel that he's very much out of his element and the results on D reflect that. I'm not expecting this team to be all time bad like the 2012 Saints, but they could certainly end up at or near the very bottom (thanks Miami!) of the league in yds/gm. like the 2015 Giants based on what we've seen so far. I get that they're young and need pass rushers, but I don't think the talent level is that level bad.
He's as fit as McAdoo's old suit.  
Canton : 9/16/2019 11:03 am : link
.
Bettchers defense needs pass rushers  
Chip : 9/16/2019 11:04 am : link
We don't have any.
Every defense needs good players  
allstarjim : 9/16/2019 11:05 am : link
Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.
RE: Every defense needs good players  
cactus : 9/16/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.


What exactly are you worried about wrecking? They shouldn't be this bad. How many years does it make sense to keep a coach who seemingly only can be successful with a certain makeup of players on D, yet the team is not close to being able to field a roster like that?
I think  
crackerjack465 : 9/16/2019 11:21 am : link
we should've stuck with a 4-3 tbh.

We only have maybe one or two guys who would be long term pieces in a good 3-4. Our LBs are terrible.

I have no idea if Bettcher is going to be here long term or not but you're asking him to turn vet min free agents, 3rd - 5th round draft choices and Janoris Jenkins into a top 10 defense.
I am not happy with Bettcher at the moment  
Jay on the Island : 9/16/2019 11:25 am : link
With that said I can't fully blame him for the performance of the defense. He doesn't have a lot to work with and he had a great track record in Arizona when he actually had a good pass rusher.

If the Giants can add a pass rusher or two plus add an ILB and some help at DE and FS then I think we will see a top 10 defense with Bettcher in charge.
Worst roster in the NFL?  
RollBlue : 9/16/2019 11:25 am : link
How in the hell do they go 11-5 with McAdoo as coach with the worst roster in the NFL - that's such a stupid take. The 2017 was talented, but when all of your WRs go down with injury, and your QB is toast, hard to win. Talent was not the issue with the 2017 team. That defense PROVED it was good in 2016. What have any of these Gettleman guys proven yet... His head Coach hire has only proven he's a loser also
Thought about this yesterday.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/16/2019 11:27 am : link
The Giants still have such little talent at LB that they should be able to switch back to a 4-3 defense (if they want) after the season with little issue. It's not as if they'd really be wasting any edge LBs with another system change. The DTs would be fine in a new system and they'd actually have some depth to speak of.
RE: Every defense needs good players  
Eman11 : 9/16/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.


Nonsense?

Nonsense is running your scheme and not devising a scheme that fits your players strengths. Nonsense is seeing how your scheme isn't working but continuing to run it. Nonsense is not making adjustments. Nonsense is cotinuing to try and pound a square peg into a round hole.

Nonsense is believing 18 games of proof is easily dismissed. It's certainly enough to get a good idea about a coaches strengths and weakness.

As far as what would be my plan or scheme, I'd first start by letting Baker play to his strength of up in your face, tight man coverage and not have him play off the ball soft and zone. Let the kid do what he does best and why he was drafted in the 1st rd.. Adjust your damn scheme to fit the player and not the other way around.
Bettcher doesn't have the talent  
Burtman : 9/16/2019 11:33 am : link
but that's not what bothers me about this defense. Too many plays have happened where the the defense looks lost. It's not just the rookies out there. We've had some lost veterans too. Good coaches should know when their players don't know what to do. He's got to get everyone on the same page. I'm on the fence about him. I know his reputation but he's got to prove he can do it here.
I think the youth along with the lack of true stud pass rusher  
Rjanyg : 9/16/2019 11:38 am : link
is the problem.
Chicken Salad  
djstat : 9/16/2019 11:39 am : link
Can't make chicken salad out of Chicken sh*t

No Pass Rushers on D
RE: Every defense needs good players  
k-five : 9/16/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.


So having one of the top defense in the NFL in 2016 was simply great coaching? Gentleman removed 7 All Pros from this roster since taking over; all without receiving equivalent compensation. Essentially, he didn't inherit the worst roster in the NFL but he sure is making it one of the worst.
The whole organization stinks, from the top to the bottom  
jcn56 : 9/16/2019 12:09 pm : link
the coaching staff is no great shakes, but they're working with shit talent too.
I thought they did a better  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 9/16/2019 12:23 pm : link
job getting pressure ...They sacked him 3 times, probably should have had a few more but that kid is strong.

They flushed him out of pockets a bunch of times as well. The Kid made plays.
got some hits  
bc4life : 9/16/2019 12:29 pm : link
and sacks yesterday. and the players are very young. and Skipper should help out. Growing pains
If the defense can't stop anybody...  
silverfox : 9/16/2019 12:31 pm : link
...the offense is irrelevant.
I said this in preseason  
mittenedman : 9/16/2019 12:37 pm : link
and unfortunately its worst case scenario: Giants have the worst pass rush on paper in the NFL and one of the worst Ive ever seen. They desperately needed Carter and Lawrence to be studs to have any hope and it hasnt happened.

They really have no chance to stop anyone with these players. Its going to be a long year.
I wish we would go back to the 4-3  
Bluesbreaker : 9/16/2019 12:40 pm : link
we have the DT's we can get a DE in free agency
and look to the draft for another .
We have Carter and Ximines for SSLB WSLB
not sure if Connely is stout enough for MLB
I am just guessing as to positioning but free safety
continues to be a problem as Bethea is a liability at
this point . I hope Tuzar Skipper gets some playing time
against the Bucs .
I see our DE's  
HoustonGiant : 9/16/2019 12:54 pm : link
as DT's. It looks like square peg, round hole.

I think Tomlinson and Lawrence would be monstrous as DT's in a 4-3 with some better DE's.
I just think the ilbs and safeties we have  
idiotsavant : 9/16/2019 1:00 pm : link
Wouldn't be able to defend the middle pass wise in any system .

I like the betch system . Also, snacks and lbs positional coaching don't get a free pass
Typo dbacks not snacks  
idiotsavant : 9/16/2019 1:01 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
allstarjim : 9/16/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14579964 cactus said:
Quote:
In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



What exactly are you worried about wrecking? They shouldn't be this bad. How many years does it make sense to keep a coach who seemingly only can be successful with a certain makeup of players on D, yet the team is not close to being able to field a roster like that?


YES THEY SHOULD! Are you purposefully being obtuse? They got rid of one of their best defenders and only legitimate pass rusher, and way too many players on the defense are rookies or just starting their 2nd year. THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD RIGHT NOW. These players are doing what they are supposed to be doing right now...suffering through the growing pains.

And to answer how many years...Bettcher has been here ONE SEASON AND TWO GAMES, FFS. So definitely longer than that, mmkay? Put your big girl panties on and realize that they are in year 2 of a MASSIVE overhaul of the roster.

Bettcher is not the problem.
RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
allstarjim : 9/16/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14579998 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



Nonsense?

Nonsense is running your scheme and not devising a scheme that fits your players strengths. Nonsense is seeing how your scheme isn't working but continuing to run it. Nonsense is not making adjustments. Nonsense is cotinuing to try and pound a square peg into a round hole.

Nonsense is believing 18 games of proof is easily dismissed. It's certainly enough to get a good idea about a coaches strengths and weakness.

As far as what would be my plan or scheme, I'd first start by letting Baker play to his strength of up in your face, tight man coverage and not have him play off the ball soft and zone. Let the kid do what he does best and why he was drafted in the 1st rd.. Adjust your damn scheme to fit the player and not the other way around.


When Baker struggles in man what are you going to say then? He's 2 games into his career. TWO. But already YOU'VE DECIDED he can't play zone. It's NONSENSE.

I swear to God you people were the same numbnuts calling for Spags' head after 2 games in 2011. I remember BBI then.

Just so you are prepared...they aren't going to win many games because they don't have the personnel to win many games, even if Baker becomes a shutdown corner. BUCKLE UP, NANCY!

Bettcher is not the problem. I think his scheme is quite decent  
MM_in_NYC : 9/16/2019 1:26 pm : link
He has shit talent to work with.
Defense sucks  
ATL_Giants : 9/16/2019 1:28 pm : link
change the QB
RE: RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
Eman11 : 9/16/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14580413 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14579998 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



Nonsense?

Nonsense is running your scheme and not devising a scheme that fits your players strengths. Nonsense is seeing how your scheme isn't working but continuing to run it. Nonsense is not making adjustments. Nonsense is cotinuing to try and pound a square peg into a round hole.

Nonsense is believing 18 games of proof is easily dismissed. It's certainly enough to get a good idea about a coaches strengths and weakness.

As far as what would be my plan or scheme, I'd first start by letting Baker play to his strength of up in your face, tight man coverage and not have him play off the ball soft and zone. Let the kid do what he does best and why he was drafted in the 1st rd.. Adjust your damn scheme to fit the player and not the other way around.



When Baker struggles in man what are you going to say then? He's 2 games into his career. TWO. But already YOU'VE DECIDED he can't play zone. It's NONSENSE.

I swear to God you people were the same numbnuts calling for Spags' head after 2 games in 2011. I remember BBI then.

Just so you are prepared...they aren't going to win many games because they don't have the personnel to win many games, even if Baker becomes a shutdown corner. BUCKLE UP, NANCY!


I see reading comp isn't your strong point. Please show me where I said Baker can't play zone? I said I would play to his strength of an up tight man coverage CB. Pointing out a players strong point isn't saying he can't do something else, only he does that one thing better.

Same thing with the DC. Just because he doesn't have All Pro personnel doesn't mean he's not at fault here too. That's different than blaming him for everything. I think after 18 games we've seen his scheme and now I'd like to see him develop a scheme that uses his players strengths. That's what good coaches do and that's not just my idea of good coaching, it comes right from Parcells and down through Belichick.

Oh and the all caps thing doesn't exactly make your point seem more credible, and neither does the name calling. It just makes it look like you're a child stomping his feet when he doesn't like what's he's being told.

Bettcher has shown me nothing.  
NoPeanutz : 9/16/2019 1:44 pm : link
The defense is totally healthy. This is the roster he has had for months.
And yet in any other year they would be historically bad. Confused, out of position, no pressure.
Funny, but I realized yesterday that my reaction to the Giants taking  
Dinger : 9/16/2019 2:04 pm : link
Daniel Jones was the same as it was when they hired Shurmur and then Bettcher. It was "Huh!?!?!, WTF?!?! Well I guess they know football better than me...."

I thought there were better choices than Shurmur out there. At least someone who experienced a few winning seasons maybe. Then I thought with Bettcher, well he's been out west so thats really why I never heard of him or the successful Cardinals defense. With Jones it was, well I know they will eventually need a QB, but hell we are desperate for a defender to rush the QB. Now I've tried to give Shurmmur the benefit of the doubt, through the bad play calls, the poor clock management and the overall deer in the headlights feel. This Job seems too big for him. Bettcher, well if I'm supposed to wait until he has talent to have a defense that works, we could get a lot of coaches who can do that who have had more success. I guess when Jones gets in and changes everything up, then i'll be shown that they were right and I was wrong.
RE: Bettcher is not the problem. I think his scheme is quite decent  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/16/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14580415 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
He has shit talent to work with.


One of the issues is that it's going to take a lot of draft assets and free agency money to get the "right pieces" for the defense. I think they'd be better off going back to a 4-3 look after the season. That would take less resources to get to at least a professional level group. Draft Chase Young and sign a free agent defensive end and linebacker (not big name guys, but solid pros). This particular defense needs at the very least 2 or 3 new linebackers to field a solid 3-4 group.
Yesterday Banks said"every team plays rookies. They have to be coached  
Blue21 : 9/16/2019 2:15 pm : link
up". He wasn't making excuses for the coaches, he was laying it on them. He said if the system is to complex you need to simplify it for them the first year.
Why is it always said that the coordinator doesn't have  
figgy2989 : 9/16/2019 2:19 pm : link
the players to be successful?

I think what separates certain coordinators and makes them into good coaches is they are able to find ways to work with what they are given and find success.

Watching the defense the last two weeks, how many times do you see guys out of position? How come no adjustments are made to give some of these guys help. I mean, week 1, you just knew Dak was throwing at Hamilton every chance he got, same with Baker yesterday.

RE: I wish we would go back to the 4-3  
DelZotto : 9/16/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14580248 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
we have the DT's we can get a DE in free agency
and look to the draft for another .
We have Carter and Ximines for SSLB WSLB
not sure if Connely is stout enough for MLB
I am just guessing as to positioning but free safety
continues to be a problem as Bethea is a liability at
this point . I hope Tuzar Skipper gets some playing time
against the Bucs .


Agreed personnel better served in 43
RE: I see our DE's  
DelZotto : 9/16/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14580302 HoustonGiant said:
Quote:
as DT's. It looks like square peg, round hole.

I think Tomlinson and Lawrence would be monstrous as DT's in a 4-3 with some better DE's.

Agreed
The concerning thing  
Nine-Tails : 9/16/2019 2:35 pm : link
To me is hes signed off on a lot of these moves. We can agree the players are below par, but its been two off seasons weve been getting his guys. The Arizona players, ogletree, analysts said Baker was a great fit for his defense, and Dave Te said Bettcher was pushing hard for Lawrence
RE: The concerning thing  
allstarjim : 9/16/2019 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14580633 Nine-Tails said:
Quote:
To me is hes signed off on a lot of these moves. We can agree the players are below par, but its been two off seasons weve been getting his guys. The Arizona players, ogletree, analysts said Baker was a great fit for his defense, and Dave Te said Bettcher was pushing hard for Lawrence


And who's to say he was wrong? And Ogletree had a good year last year. 93 tackles, 6 TFLs, 8 PDs, and FIVE INTs in just 13 games. Ogletree is a good linebacker.

So you're position is that because Baker and Lawrence haven't dominated in their first two games of their career then they are "below par"?

Bettcher, Gettleman, et al...are better at this than you are. Your grading system is and performance evaluation is whack. Sorry you expected something better than a rebuilding year, that's on you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
allstarjim : 9/16/2019 2:54 pm : link
In comment 14580457 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14580413 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14579998 Eman11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



Nonsense?

Nonsense is running your scheme and not devising a scheme that fits your players strengths. Nonsense is seeing how your scheme isn't working but continuing to run it. Nonsense is not making adjustments. Nonsense is cotinuing to try and pound a square peg into a round hole.

Nonsense is believing 18 games of proof is easily dismissed. It's certainly enough to get a good idea about a coaches strengths and weakness.

As far as what would be my plan or scheme, I'd first start by letting Baker play to his strength of up in your face, tight man coverage and not have him play off the ball soft and zone. Let the kid do what he does best and why he was drafted in the 1st rd.. Adjust your damn scheme to fit the player and not the other way around.



When Baker struggles in man what are you going to say then? He's 2 games into his career. TWO. But already YOU'VE DECIDED he can't play zone. It's NONSENSE.

I swear to God you people were the same numbnuts calling for Spags' head after 2 games in 2011. I remember BBI then.

Just so you are prepared...they aren't going to win many games because they don't have the personnel to win many games, even if Baker becomes a shutdown corner. BUCKLE UP, NANCY!




I see reading comp isn't your strong point. Please show me where I said Baker can't play zone? I said I would play to his strength of an up tight man coverage CB. Pointing out a players strong point isn't saying he can't do something else, only he does that one thing better.

Same thing with the DC. Just because he doesn't have All Pro personnel doesn't mean he's not at fault here too. That's different than blaming him for everything. I think after 18 games we've seen his scheme and now I'd like to see him develop a scheme that uses his players strengths. That's what good coaches do and that's not just my idea of good coaching, it comes right from Parcells and down through Belichick.

Oh and the all caps thing doesn't exactly make your point seem more credible, and neither does the name calling. It just makes it look like you're a child stomping his feet when he doesn't like what's he's being told.


Oh, I'M the child stomping his feet, when you're part of the 75% of BBI whining about a team that should fully be expected to lose and go through growing pains for doing exactly that? I didn't name call, although the thought did occur to me, because if our ownership followed your prescriptions for the team, we'd be the fucking Cleveland Browns. And not the Cleveland Browns that actually have some hope now, I mean the perennial loser Cleveland Browns that only won 38 games in 10 full seasons.

I comprehended your post just fine. You're upset because a DC didn't change his scheme for a rookie corner playing his 2nd game. I think I got it, and that take is UNBELIEVABLY STUPID.

And no, I didn't name call anyone here. I said the people who were calling for Spags to be fired in 2011 (actually 2007) after two games were numbnuts...which they all turned out to be. And this team has a LOT less defensive talent than that team, so you're going to have to wait a bit longer, and if you didn't expect this, then you completely had the blinders on. Bettcher > your shitty opinion.
At least he came with what was apparently a decent resume  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/16/2019 3:57 pm : link
unlike other assistant coaches and execs Giants have hired.

However I am instrinsically opposed to his high risk/reward D, and prefer a bend don't break zone blitz or soft cover 2, cover 3 scheme. Let a young Josh Allen and Buffalo team matriciulate the ball down the field playing error free football and holding teams to a FG.
Theres a lack of talent  
jeff57 : 9/16/2019 4:05 pm : link
But hes not doing anything to make it better. He could simplify things for Baker for example,
Yeah I'm gonna stick by my reading comp comment  
Eman11 : 9/16/2019 4:23 pm : link
Nowhere did I say Betcher needed to change his whole scheme so there's just one more thing you've failed to comprehend from my post.

You asked what would people do and I have one example. One! I'd start with letting the kid do what he's best at and not have him do things that aren't his strong suit.

Lastly you did in fact call names. If not what was the Nancy comment? It implies me or anyone not agreeing with you are what? Feminine or not as tough as you?

Get a grip. It's a message board where people share their opinions. I gave mine and will stand by it.

Good coaches adapt their schemes to get the best out of the talent they have regardless of how good that talent is. They don't force feed their schemes and put players in spots that aren't their strengths or ask them to do things they aren't good at or comfortable doing. The good/great coaches adapt, the bad ones refuse to or can't. After 18 games I'm starting to get a good picture of which one I think Betcher is. Am I giving up on him? No but I sure as hell will if this goes on all year.
RE: RE: Bettcher is not the problem. I think his scheme is quite decent  
MM_in_NYC : 9/16/2019 5:13 pm : link
In comment 14580574 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 14580415 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


He has shit talent to work with.



One of the issues is that it's going to take a lot of draft assets and free agency money to get the "right pieces" for the defense. I think they'd be better off going back to a 4-3 look after the season. That would take less resources to get to at least a professional level group. Draft Chase Young and sign a free agent defensive end and linebacker (not big name guys, but solid pros). This particular defense needs at the very least 2 or 3 new linebackers to field a solid 3-4 group.


I think these hybrid schemes are the future. You can get more athletes on the field - and with the passing attacks that are coming that is what you need to do.

Allen made some great plays yesterday that at least contributed to one TD the Bills shouldn't have had. 28 points against is not that dreadful. And if it were 21 points then I'm not sure what everyone is really complaining about given the talent levels.
RE: RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
cactus : 9/16/2019 5:54 pm : link
In comment 14580379 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14579964 cactus said:


Quote:


In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



What exactly are you worried about wrecking? They shouldn't be this bad. How many years does it make sense to keep a coach who seemingly only can be successful with a certain makeup of players on D, yet the team is not close to being able to field a roster like that?



YES THEY SHOULD! Are you purposefully being obtuse? They got rid of one of their best defenders and only legitimate pass rusher, and way too many players on the defense are rookies or just starting their 2nd year. THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD RIGHT NOW. These players are doing what they are supposed to be doing right now...suffering through the growing pains.

And to answer how many years...Bettcher has been here ONE SEASON AND TWO GAMES, FFS. So definitely longer than that, mmkay? Put your big girl panties on and realize that they are in year 2 of a MASSIVE overhaul of the roster.

Bettcher is not the problem.


You didn't answer the question of how many years should he get. If you're so adamant that they should be this bad, then that's 2 years/32 games, and ending that with one of the worst defenses in the league. How long should he continue to be allowed to coach an aggressive 3-4 D that relies on linebackers when that's the position where they have the least amount of talent?
RE: The concerning thing  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/16/2019 6:05 pm : link
In comment 14580633 Nine-Tails said:
Quote:
To me is hes signed off on a lot of these moves. We can agree the players are below par, but its been two off seasons weve been getting his guys. The Arizona players, ogletree, analysts said Baker was a great fit for his defense, and Dave Te said Bettcher was pushing hard for Lawrence


Life is a little different without Patrick Peterson (1st team All Pro), Honey Badger (1st team All Pro, Deone Buchanan, Calais Campbell (Pro Bowl) and Justin Bethel (Pro Bowl) out there.

That's almost 1/2 the defense right there from their 2015 team that almost made the Super Bowl when he was DC in his first year at Arizona. Pro Bowlers and All-Pros.

None of those guys appear to be on this roster. So he's making the many of the same calls with far less quality players and these are the results.

We probably shouldn't be surprised.

Examples of Defensive Coaches  
V.I.G. : 9/16/2019 7:41 pm : link
That have put a good D out there with bad personnel.

I mean even Belichick had awful Ds with weak personnel.

Im not pushing back or defending Bettcher. But who are the comps that we could point to? No agenda, educate me please.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
allstarjim : 9/16/2019 11:00 pm : link
In comment 14581108 cactus said:
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In comment 14580379 allstarjim said:


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In comment 14579964 cactus said:


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In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


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Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



What exactly are you worried about wrecking? They shouldn't be this bad. How many years does it make sense to keep a coach who seemingly only can be successful with a certain makeup of players on D, yet the team is not close to being able to field a roster like that?



YES THEY SHOULD! Are you purposefully being obtuse? They got rid of one of their best defenders and only legitimate pass rusher, and way too many players on the defense are rookies or just starting their 2nd year. THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD RIGHT NOW. These players are doing what they are supposed to be doing right now...suffering through the growing pains.

And to answer how many years...Bettcher has been here ONE SEASON AND TWO GAMES, FFS. So definitely longer than that, mmkay? Put your big girl panties on and realize that they are in year 2 of a MASSIVE overhaul of the roster.

Bettcher is not the problem.



You didn't answer the question of how many years should he get. If you're so adamant that they should be this bad, then that's 2 years/32 games, and ending that with one of the worst defenses in the league. How long should he continue to be allowed to coach an aggressive 3-4 D that relies on linebackers when that's the position where they have the least amount of talent?


He should at least get 1 season with a quality defensive unit. He hasn't had that yet. Perhaps next year. Bad teams have no continuity. With their coaching staff. Good teams do. Your premise is awful and totally unsupported, and you are overreacting to too small of a sample and ignoring all other possible reasons as to why they aren't getting the results you would hope.
RE: Examples of Defensive Coaches  
justafan : 9/17/2019 1:54 am : link
In comment 14581251 V.I.G. said:
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That have put a good D out there with bad personnel.

I mean even Belichick had awful Ds with weak personnel.

Im not pushing back or defending Bettcher. But who are the comps that we could point to? No agenda, educate me please.


Rod Marinelli and 2014 Cowboys. Granted they had a high functioning offense to keep some of the heat off his defense, but there weren't many stars on that defense if any. Marinelli seems to get the best out of what he has. Defense went from 26th in points allowed to 15th. Dead last in yards allowed to 19th. That's a pretty good turn around in 1 year. Their leading pass rusher had six sacks in 2014 and they finished 28th in total sacks. So he was doing it with a limited pass rush.

Not gonna deep dive into TOP of the Dallas offense that year, as I said, I assume that defense was getting a lot of help from the offense, but you can't deny the improvements he made. Marinelli is a supremely underestimated coordinator.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
cactus : 9/17/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14581818 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14581108 cactus said:


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In comment 14580379 allstarjim said:


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In comment 14579964 cactus said:


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In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


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Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



What exactly are you worried about wrecking? They shouldn't be this bad. How many years does it make sense to keep a coach who seemingly only can be successful with a certain makeup of players on D, yet the team is not close to being able to field a roster like that?



YES THEY SHOULD! Are you purposefully being obtuse? They got rid of one of their best defenders and only legitimate pass rusher, and way too many players on the defense are rookies or just starting their 2nd year. THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD RIGHT NOW. These players are doing what they are supposed to be doing right now...suffering through the growing pains.

And to answer how many years...Bettcher has been here ONE SEASON AND TWO GAMES, FFS. So definitely longer than that, mmkay? Put your big girl panties on and realize that they are in year 2 of a MASSIVE overhaul of the roster.

Bettcher is not the problem.



You didn't answer the question of how many years should he get. If you're so adamant that they should be this bad, then that's 2 years/32 games, and ending that with one of the worst defenses in the league. How long should he continue to be allowed to coach an aggressive 3-4 D that relies on linebackers when that's the position where they have the least amount of talent?



He should at least get 1 season with a quality defensive unit. He hasn't had that yet. Perhaps next year. Bad teams have no continuity. With their coaching staff. Good teams do. Your premise is awful and totally unsupported, and you are overreacting to too small of a sample and ignoring all other possible reasons as to why they aren't getting the results you would hope.



Good teams have continuity with coaches because the coaches are a good fit with or get the most out of the talent on the team.

I don't think there's much to argue on the premise that Bettcher isn't the right fit right now, you just seem to think while yelling and talking about women's panties that I'm the one overreacting because in your view (paraphrasing here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) he should get at least another year until they have more talent on the roster.

The problem with that is all the current linebackers are either projects or over the hill vets. You'd need something like two good players from top draft picks or free agent signings, and two of the projects to pan out by next year. Not all likely going to happen that fast.

Sticking with a bad fit on a team that most likely isn't going to have the horses to run his 3-4 next year (and he hasn't shown the ability to get the most out of the talent he has either) simply for the sake of continuity doesn't seem like the right approach to me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Every defense needs good players  
allstarjim : 9/17/2019 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14582749 cactus said:
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In comment 14581818 allstarjim said:


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In comment 14581108 cactus said:


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In comment 14580379 allstarjim said:


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In comment 14579964 cactus said:


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In comment 14579933 allstarjim said:


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Right now, we don't have very many of them. It's not the coach. This team is in the middle of re-building their defense. What is your plan? Start all over and wreck what we have? Is there any scheme/system that is going to make what we have a good NFL defense at the moment?

The answer is no. Bettcher is a talented d-coordinator. Too many judgements about DG, PS, and the rest of the staff after 18 games from taking over perhaps the worst roster in the NFL. It's NONSENSE.



What exactly are you worried about wrecking? They shouldn't be this bad. How many years does it make sense to keep a coach who seemingly only can be successful with a certain makeup of players on D, yet the team is not close to being able to field a roster like that?



YES THEY SHOULD! Are you purposefully being obtuse? They got rid of one of their best defenders and only legitimate pass rusher, and way too many players on the defense are rookies or just starting their 2nd year. THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD RIGHT NOW. These players are doing what they are supposed to be doing right now...suffering through the growing pains.

And to answer how many years...Bettcher has been here ONE SEASON AND TWO GAMES, FFS. So definitely longer than that, mmkay? Put your big girl panties on and realize that they are in year 2 of a MASSIVE overhaul of the roster.

Bettcher is not the problem.



You didn't answer the question of how many years should he get. If you're so adamant that they should be this bad, then that's 2 years/32 games, and ending that with one of the worst defenses in the league. How long should he continue to be allowed to coach an aggressive 3-4 D that relies on linebackers when that's the position where they have the least amount of talent?



He should at least get 1 season with a quality defensive unit. He hasn't had that yet. Perhaps next year. Bad teams have no continuity. With their coaching staff. Good teams do. Your premise is awful and totally unsupported, and you are overreacting to too small of a sample and ignoring all other possible reasons as to why they aren't getting the results you would hope.




Good teams have continuity with coaches because the coaches are a good fit with or get the most out of the talent on the team.

I don't think there's much to argue on the premise that Bettcher isn't the right fit right now, you just seem to think while yelling and talking about women's panties that I'm the one overreacting because in your view (paraphrasing here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) he should get at least another year until they have more talent on the roster.

The problem with that is all the current linebackers are either projects or over the hill vets. You'd need something like two good players from top draft picks or free agent signings, and two of the projects to pan out by next year. Not all likely going to happen that fast.

Sticking with a bad fit on a team that most likely isn't going to have the horses to run his 3-4 next year (and he hasn't shown the ability to get the most out of the talent he has either) simply for the sake of continuity doesn't seem like the right approach to me.


Good thing you're not in a position to make decisions. Like I said, we'd be the Browns.

And Eman simultaneously says, "Nonsense is running your scheme and not devising a scheme that fits your players strengths. Nonsense is seeing how your scheme isn't working but continuing to run it. Nonsense is not making adjustments. Nonsense is cotinuing to try and pound a square peg into a round hole."" Then, "Nowhere did I say Betcher needed to change his whole scheme so there's just one more thing you've failed to comprehend from my post." Later in the post, "Good coaches adapt their schemes to get the best out of the talent they have regardless of how good that talent is. They don't force feed their schemes and put players in spots that aren't their strengths or ask them to do things they aren't good at or comfortable doing."

LOL, can't make this shit up.

Dude, you're missing the fact that rookie corners in their 2nd game are often going to struggle in any scheme. You have the premise that Bettcher should adapt, change, or whatever, his scheme so that Baker plays press man. You don't change anything for a player playing in his 2nd NFL game. You going to leave Baker on an island playing press man against a seasoned NFL WR? No? You're going to give him safety help, right? What if you have John Brown on the other side. You're not going to have safety help for John Brown? Or are you going to put Baker in press man against Brown? Or are you going to just play cover two or cover three?

It is the height of arrogance for you to say Bettcher's doing it wrong because he isn't adjusting for a 2nd game rookie. You don't know what you're talking about, Bettcher is a lot more accomplished than you, has a much better track record, and you get your rookies to play your scheme and if they can't cut, you get players who can, because unless you have Lawrence Taylor, you don't let one guy dictate your scheme. At any rate, Baker has plenty of time to be coached up in this scheme, and Bettcher's defense played much better in the 2nd half of that game. Again, your opinion after two games this year passing judgement on Bettcher who is bringing along several rookies in his secondary, is in fact, not well-reasoned, to put it kindly.
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