From this morning's Shurmur conference call:
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Shurmur said Eli’s been the starter to this point. He wouldn’t commit to anything beyond that. Said they’re looking at everything going forward.
12:18 PM · Sep 16, 2019·Twitter for iPhone
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That would seem to be a big red flare in the sky to me.
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Yeah, this was my initial reaction as well actually. This is Shurmur's way of putting pressure on Mara. But that's a dangerous game he's playing....Mara's not likely to appreciate Shurmur handling that kind of a dispute via the media.
Oh to be a fly on the wall in "Jints Central" today!
Shurmur is the coach, it is his decision who plays and who doesn't. John Mara can't stop him from doing it. The only thing Mara could do is fire him for defying his wishes or get rid of Jones to take the option away from him. So the only question is does Shurmur have the balls to do what needs to be done?
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I truly believe Shurmur has his hands tied by ownership. It looks and sounds like he wants Jones on the field
Shurmur is the coach, it is his decision who plays and who doesn't. John Mara can't stop him from doing it. The only thing Mara could do is fire him for defying his wishes or get rid of Jones to take the option away from him. So the only question is does Shurmur have the balls to do what needs to be done?
you dont sctually believe this do you? you thibk shurmur can bench eli? he absolutely has to get the ok
Problem is this time the fans would be nearly 100% on Shurmur's side.
@Giants
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7m
Coach Shurmur: Cody Latimer has a concussion. Sterling Shepard is improving from his concussion.
Eric, How close to all football players (except kickers) come to having at least one concussion per game?
One thing I will say, I’m tired of Eli being the person everyone is pointing at as the problem. He’s part of the problem? Ok. But the Giants are fucking pathetic and have been for many years now. Let the kid start and let everyone else start to be accountable for their part in making the Giants the 2nd worst team in the NFL.
you dont sctually believe this do you? you thibk shurmur can bench eli? he absolutely has to get the ok
He absolutely could go against Mara's wishes and dare him to do something about it
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Eli is right behind Big Ben in all time yards and TD passes, yes I care!
as sad as it makes me to say it, ben has shown himself to be the better quarterback and a few more one-TD performances from eli won't change that. ben has more yards and TD passes than eli and he's done it in about 16 fewer games played.
Ben also has had a good OL, a good running game with Bell (and others), and Antonio Brown/Juju/others. His surrounding talent for the past 5 years has been much much better. Same goes for Rivers
All 3 are done now however, and you can probably put Brees on the list too
I have the feeling Shurmur is saying to himself "If I have to go out I'm at least going to go out with the guy who has some upside".
At this point if Eli and the lose again it's over for him. Maybe Eli finally had enough as well.
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I truly believe Shurmur has his hands tied by ownership. It looks and sounds like he wants Jones on the field
Shurmur is the coach, it is his decision who plays and who doesn't. John Mara can't stop him from doing it. The only thing Mara could do is fire him for defying his wishes or get rid of Jones to take the option away from him. So the only question is does Shurmur have the balls to do what needs to be done?
The Giants drafted Jones at #6 and didn't extend Eli despite all the dead cap money from the Odell trade. Everyone knows which way the wind is blowing here. Mara and Gettleman likely wanted Eli to play as long as possible this season but they all knew he's not coming back in 2020. However, getting blown out by Dallas, on the road and a much better team is one thing. Losing by 2 TDs at home vs. a Bills team that went 6-10 last year shows that this team isn't doing anything and not playing Jones is just delaying the obvious.
The Giants have been extremely respectful to Eli. I'm sure somewhere in John Mara's mind he wanted to see the transition from Eli to the new QB much better than how Simms was shown the door during the Rangers Stanley Cup Parade, which Simms is still pissed about.
I don't mean to be cynical but it does seem that this is Shurmur's best chance at job security. I wonder if it happens, what percentage of the change is down to PS needing to "do something right now" vs what is best for the long term future of the NYG at this point.
At this point if Eli and the lose again it's over for him. Maybe Eli finally had enough as well.
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HC with a .294 winning percentage is thinking about playing his rookie QB after 2 games? Probably the only chance he has to be back next year so it makes perfect sense.
I don't mean to be cynical but it does seem that this is Shurmur's best chance at job security. I wonder if it happens, what percentage of the change is down to PS needing to "do something right now" vs what is best for the long term future of the NYG at this point.
For sure it's better job security, since the measuring stick will be, is Jones playing better in December. His early lumps and losses will be expected. The only way Shurmur will be gone is if Jones does not get better or goes backwards, but that would seem to be unlikely. A guy like Jones should only get better with more experience.
One thing I will say, I’m tired of Eli being the person everyone is pointing at as the problem. He’s part of the problem? Ok. But the Giants are fucking pathetic and have been for many years now. Let the kid start and let everyone else start to be accountable for their part in making the Giants the 2nd worst team in the NFL.
That's an inaccurate assessment of this situation. What's happening is this team as currently constructed isn't close to competing, therefore, it makes no sense to continue to waste time with Eli Manning starting when Daniel Jones is there. The organization needs to move forward while at the same time assessing whether certain people (Shurmur, Gettleman) will move forward with them too.
And do you believe that? I don’t.
And subway station floors taste like lollipops.
This would make the most sense.
Also I think-if respect to Eli is still any kind of a priority to NYG-he should be afforded the same opportunity. AT LEAST give him a game or two with as many decent weapons on the field before he gets benched.
Alas.
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is not making these statements without DG and Mara on board. Who knows, maybe the Tisch side wants to move on and is pressuring the switch.
At this point if Eli and the lose again it's over for him. Maybe Eli finally had enough as well.
I said during the preseason that Shurmur's HC W/L record would make him feel the heat sooner rather than later if we started losing and that he would feel pressure to start Jones because of it. This appears accurate now. It was met with some resistance.
I agree regarding Shurmur. I don't like playing Eli most of the year and then he PS gets a pass and next year.
He has been way to passive this year in expectations. Wait till the press starts hammering his record (overall) after Eli sits. This is the downside to a second time coach. Rightfully, there is a higher expectation to win.
Everyone on the planet knew they had to replace Eli soon. He obviously would've preferred Eli to ride off into the sunset on a high note, hence the "I hope Daniel Jones never sees the field..." because Eli is playing so well comments. That's not the reality of the situation anymore.
Also I think-if respect to Eli is still any kind of a priority to NYG-he should be afforded the same opportunity. AT LEAST give him a game or two with as many decent weapons on the field before he gets benched.
Alas.
You're kidding right, whats the point in continuing to start Eli. He cant convert a third down.
LMAO
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In comment 14580308 arniefez said:
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HC with a .294 winning percentage is thinking about playing his rookie QB after 2 games? Probably the only chance he has to be back next year so it makes perfect sense.
I don't mean to be cynical but it does seem that this is Shurmur's best chance at job security. I wonder if it happens, what percentage of the change is down to PS needing to "do something right now" vs what is best for the long term future of the NYG at this point.
For sure it's better job security, since the measuring stick will be, is Jones playing better in December. His early lumps and losses will be expected. The only way Shurmur will be gone is if Jones does not get better or goes backwards, but that would seem to be unlikely. A guy like Jones should only get better with more experience.
one counterpoint to this is: Jones was the most experienced and well coached guy coming out by a country mile.
I'm not saying this is the case, but its possible he is already near his ceiling.
I don't get this comment. Their WRs didn't play badly yesterday. Eli said he thought they played well and I don't think that was just some Eli nonsense talking point.
I have not heard one talking head or BBI commentator make a compelling case to start Eli next week.
I have heard, it would be mistake if isn't ready.
Got a little clue for them.
We ain't gonna know if he is ready until we put him the fuck in there.
0-2 6 of the last 7 seasons. We are all so fucking tired of it.
If we start Jones at least it will begin to feel like we are at least trying to win. FFS talk to Eli and pull off the fucking band aid.
Also I think-if respect to Eli is still any kind of a priority to NYG-he should be afforded the same opportunity. AT LEAST give him a game or two with as many decent weapons on the field before he gets benched.
Alas.
shep should be back this week
These are the questions that arise when major decisions are made by a committee of people with different agendas and timelines:
John Mara
Steve Tisch
Chris Mara
Dave Gettleman
Kevin Abrams
Pat Shurmur
Ernie Accorsi
This is the root of the Giants' problems. Right there in that list. This group that's trapped in the '80s is what we're bringing into a competition with the Eagles and *gasp* the Patriots.
Who plays quarterback is irrelevant as long as this is the arrangement.
I'd wait for Tate and Shepard to return before going to Jones, but Shurmur may not be so patient. He sees two winnable games coming up in a season where wins may be tough to come by.
Also I think-if respect to Eli is still any kind of a priority to NYG-he should be afforded the same opportunity. AT LEAST give him a game or two with as many decent weapons on the field before he gets benched.
That’s crazy there is no point in playing Eli. We need to see what Jones is a soon as possible the longer we wait the longer it takes to not be a joke anymore.
Alas.
Also I think-if respect to Eli is still any kind of a priority to NYG-he should be afforded the same opportunity. AT LEAST give him a game or two with as many decent weapons on the field before he gets benched.
Alas.
Game 1 the only offensive starter he was missing was Golden Tate
Golden Tate isn't the difference between a bad offense and a good one. At this point in their careers he and Sterling Shepard are copies of one another. They're #2 and Slot WRs.
He's a losing head coach with an awful W/L record. That record - his resume - is going to get worse with Jones and he probably knows it. I'm not saying Eli is going to win anything more, but Shurmur might feel safer with the vet - for now.
Starting Jones is the right thing to do now - if you're going to lose at least lose with the kid getting some experience.
But it could also cost Shurmur his job..............
What we don't know is what was discussed in Eli's meeting with Gettleman at the end of the 2018 season when Eli took Gettleman "to the low post and won". In hindsight, I wonder if Eli told the Giants that he's done after this year and will retire. The Giants going all in on Daniel Jones and not talking extension with Eli would seem to fall within that possibility. The value of Eli right now really was to set an example for a young QB on how to prepare to be an NFL quarterback. How to go over film, game plan, etc. If Eli was never going to come back in 2020, that would hasten the need to go after Jones this past draft and not wait for the 2020 QB prospects who all seemed better.
It's quite possible that the Giants all along knew they were going to hand the reigns over to Jones this year, but figured at first it would be later. But based upon the rave reviews we heard in camp and then how he played in the pre-season, the Giants found that Jones is more NFL ready than perhaps they were initially led to believe. Even Shurmur saying "where are the people who had a problem with him and where are they now?"
The bottom line for Mara always wants to play the QB who gave you the best chance to win. Last year Shurmur laughed at Lauletta, even trashing him after the Redskins mop up duty and pretty much told the media "happy now, this guy sucks". After 2 games the Giants have come to the conclusion that Jones probably gives the Giants the same chance of winning as Eli, if not better.
And let's also face it, Mara has always reacted to fan criticism. It wasn't lost on anyone he fired McAdoo and Reese prior to the Giants homestand knowing the fans would be out with pitchforks. The pressure was off.
The fan reaction will be overwhelmingly pro-Jones now. I said at the time, the only positive for McAdoo benching Eli for Geno was that he snapped the starting streak and made it a non-issue when Eli was really really getting benched. Jones starting at home vs. the Redskins you will have a much better crowd and a forgiving crowd. If Eli has a 3 and out, the chants were coming.
The time is right now to make this move. And I thought at first they were going to bring Jones in off the bench in Tampa, but it's quite possible that now this trial balloon was floated to the press and fans that they actually make the move on Wednesday and name Jones the starter.
He's a losing head coach with an awful W/L record. That record - his resume - is going to get worse with Jones and he probably knows it. I'm not saying Eli is going to win anything more, but Shurmur might feel safer with the vet - for now.
Starting Jones is the right thing to do now - if you're going to lose at least lose with the kid getting some experience.
But it could also cost Shurmur his job..............
That's why it's stupid to leave this decision up to the head coach. He's thinking about winning as many games as possible, not what's actually best for the Giants franchise long-term. I'm not suggesting he's trying to sabotage the team, but he's thinking about his job, and coaches have an unconscious bias towards safety and veterans.
Jones could be Joe Montana and it won't matter with these people running the team. Eli is shot and needs to be replaced immediately, but we shouldn't lose sight that his continued pathetic presence is a symptom of a much larger and deeper problem.
Yeah I’m concerned with the overall need for fans to make this equivalency.
Is there any reason to believe that the Giants could be on the right track = there aren’t glaring signs that our organization doesn’t seem to know how to get emerging talent able to integrate newer ideas in the building
I feel like we could go 6-10 this season and as was the pattern this offseason there would be more threads started about the arrow pointing up than our continued poor performance
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If Mara had a play Eli ultimatum, why would he sign off on Jones at 6?
What we don't know is what was discussed in Eli's meeting with Gettleman at the end of the 2018 season when Eli took Gettleman "to the low post and won". In hindsight, I wonder if Eli told the Giants that he's done after this year and will retire. The Giants going all in on Daniel Jones and not talking extension with Eli would seem to fall within that possibility. The value of Eli right now really was to set an example for a young QB on how to prepare to be an NFL quarterback. How to go over film, game plan, etc. If Eli was never going to come back in 2020, that would hasten the need to go after Jones this past draft and not wait for the 2020 QB prospects who all seemed better.
It's quite possible that the Giants all along knew they were going to hand the reigns over to Jones this year, but figured at first it would be later. But based upon the rave reviews we heard in camp and then how he played in the pre-season, the Giants found that Jones is more NFL ready than perhaps they were initially led to believe. Even Shurmur saying "where are the people who had a problem with him and where are they now?"
The bottom line for Mara always wants to play the QB who gave you the best chance to win. Last year Shurmur laughed at Lauletta, even trashing him after the Redskins mop up duty and pretty much told the media "happy now, this guy sucks". After 2 games the Giants have come to the conclusion that Jones probably gives the Giants the same chance of winning as Eli, if not better.
And let's also face it, Mara has always reacted to fan criticism. It wasn't lost on anyone he fired McAdoo and Reese prior to the Giants homestand knowing the fans would be out with pitchforks. The pressure was off.
The fan reaction will be overwhelmingly pro-Jones now. I said at the time, the only positive for McAdoo benching Eli for Geno was that he snapped the starting streak and made it a non-issue when Eli was really really getting benched. Jones starting at home vs. the Redskins you will have a much better crowd and a forgiving crowd. If Eli has a 3 and out, the chants were coming.
The time is right now to make this move. And I thought at first they were going to bring Jones in off the bench in Tampa, but it's quite possible that now this trial balloon was floated to the press and fans that they actually make the move on Wednesday and name Jones the starter.
Anyway, the biggest problem is the defense.
Jackrabbit's right
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In comment 14580259 Jimmy Meatballs said:
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so they have to game plan for 2 QB’s
With Tampa, they have to game plan for 4 QBs. They never know which version of Winston they will get.
I think it comes down to if they can force turnovers. It’s given that Winston will move the ball. If we can’t get turnovers, he’ll light it up against us
You haven't watched Winston enough. There is nothing to force. He's a Jekyll/Hyde. He's either slinging the ball around the yard to Evans or tossing to the defender. Nothing special required by the defense.
I wanted to dismiss this kind of shit but the more I really process how this franchise works the more I think this is the truth. I always knew it, sometimes I’d even contradict my own takes here by agreeing with one side while disagreeing with something else on that same side, if you get me. But it’s painfully obvious that the giants operate with one eye on the press and the other on what’s really important. Fucking jerkoffs. Really it’s one guy... and only one guy. We all know who he is.
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to see how the media and fans react to Shurnur's statement. If it's less volatile than McAdoo's, I feel it's all systems go with Daniel Jones, this week or the next.
m
I wanted to dismiss this kind of shit but the more I really process how this franchise works the more I think this is the truth. I always knew it, sometimes I’d even contradict my own takes here by agreeing with one side while disagreeing with something else on that same side, if you get me. But it’s painfully obvious that the giants operate with one eye on the press and the other on what’s really important. Fucking jerkoffs. Really it’s one guy... and only one guy. We all know who he is.
+1
One thing I will say, I’m tired of Eli being the person everyone is pointing at as the problem. He’s part of the problem? Ok. But the Giants are fucking pathetic and have been for many years now. Let the kid start and let everyone else start to be accountable for their part in making the Giants the 2nd worst team in the NFL.
I think this is EXACTLY where I'm at right now. You have to look at that Mcadoo playoff year as an aberration. And the poor officiating and lack of any clear plan to fix it make football a tough sport to watch now. Problem on defense is there is no one else to turn to now.