From this morning's Shurmur conference call:
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Shurmur said Eli’s been the starter to this point. He wouldn’t commit to anything beyond that. Said they’re looking at everything going forward.
12:18 PM · Sep 16, 2019·Twitter for iPhone
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That would seem to be a big red flare in the sky to me.
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Jones starting would make an otherwise forgettable Giants-Tampa game must watch TV. It would make the season, even if dreadful record wise, something to look forward to instead of dread
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...because the decision is a a tough one.
He's a losing head coach with an awful W/L record. That record - his resume - is going to get worse with Jones and he probably knows it. I'm not saying Eli is going to win anything more, but Shurmur might feel safer with the vet - for now.
Starting Jones is the right thing to do now - if you're going to lose at least lose with the kid getting some experience.
But it could also cost Shurmur his job..............
That's why it's stupid to leave this decision up to the head coach. He's thinking about winning as many games as possible, not what's actually best for the Giants franchise long-term. I'm not suggesting he's trying to sabotage the team, but he's thinking about his job, and coaches have an unconscious bias towards safety and veterans.
When the GM starts making decisions for the HC, then you start to crumble. No coach wants that, and no coach will want to work under those conditions.
Gettleman gets to pick the players. Shurmur is involved in that to a certain degree (surely they had discussions on DJ). But once the season starts, Shurmur has to make that call. Lines of communication are obviously open, but the HC has to be able to do it his way.
If the GM doesn't like how the coach is coaching, then he fires him.
I think Mara is smarter than many seem to think but he is perhaps easily influenced. I would not be surprised if he was getting people saying that Eli was the issue as early as 2012-2013.
Look at the timeline; Fire Gilbride as his system was the reason for the sacks and turnovers. Install hybrid WCO with McAdoo and then it was TC. Then it was McAdoo who had poor leadership and his system stunk without TC. Now Eli is definitely the problem.
Ultimately I think the Giants lost there way. Every good team they have had has had a physical identity to it. Every one. They failed miserable in drafting and FA selection for a very long time.
Mara may have recognized this and felt let's see if we can put one more for Eli togood team together lead. Can't fault him for that.
I have no issue with replacing Eli. But the root cause has been the draft of almost 8 years of poor drafting.
I actually think Eli will still perform well with a team with a Very good OL and defense. You can say any QB can, but it is rare to find a QB who performs his best in the big moment. But at 38 the Giants need to move on imo. They don't have a very good OL and D.
I don't have it but Arcosi's scouting report was so spot on.
Hopefully when he is benched they don't make him the scapegoat. That would be a travesty. Ultimately the Giants failed Eli in the back half of his career.
Maybe another Parcells is lurking out there to pull the Giants out of this mess.
Jones could be Joe Montana and it won't matter with these people running the team. Eli is shot and needs to be replaced immediately, but we shouldn't lose sight that his continued pathetic presence is a symptom of a much larger and deeper problem.
Yep, although at this point if he turns out to be Joe Montana I'm willing to live through a couple more years of incompetent leadership.
I still think Eli gets 6 losses before we pull the plug.
This could very well be the case. I think Sunday is Eli's last "showcase". If anything like these past 2 weeks. The hook is imminant
Lots of reasons to make the change, and this isn't one to make it, it just may wind up as a result.
Lots of reasons to make the change, and this isn't one to make it, it just may wind up as a result.
Why would he want to be traded, he can just wait to be a Free Agent and go where he wants next year
Come on already. Please?
These guys are open enough.
Eli is either
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Even when we had OBJ, Eli was
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
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and if the Giants struggle after the 1Q or first half, Eli's getting the hook. That's what I'm reading here.
This could very well be the case. I think Sunday is Eli's last "showcase". If anything like these past 2 weeks. The hook is imminant
+2. The Giants may also feel it would be easier to bench Eli on the road than at home the following week against the Redskins. Since I expect Eli to struggle, I think there's a good chance we'll see Jones this week.
This is likely the reason Tanney is still around. Once they commit fully to DJ, you have to imagine Eli’s camp/DG will see if there’s any value out there in a trade. Makes sense to have a vet around DJ.
I still think Eli gets 6 losses before we pull the plug.
You may be right, but if we lose this weekend, BBI's servers will melt
This is likely the reason Tanney is still around. Once they commit fully to DJ, you have to imagine Eli’s camp/DG will see if there’s any value out there in a trade. Makes sense to have a vet around DJ.
I've been saying this the past few days but I wasn't suggesting a trade I was suggesting releasing Eli allowing him to go to the team of his choice.
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no matter the course or reasoning 2 games in reeks of desperation. If they had a plan regardless of what it was and they throw it out the window now what was the point. Jones should have started game 1 if he starts game 3.
I still think Eli gets 6 losses before we pull the plug.
You may be right, but if we lose this weekend, BBI's servers will melt
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Someone nailed this when Lauletta got cut...
This is likely the reason Tanney is still around. Once they commit fully to DJ, you have to imagine Eli’s camp/DG will see if there’s any value out there in a trade. Makes sense to have a vet around DJ.
I've been saying this the past few days but I wasn't suggesting a trade I was suggesting releasing Eli allowing him to go to the team of his choice.
I agree with releasing him if Eli wants to keep playing this year and there is someone out there who wants him.
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eli finally has a decent line and now no weapons for him to use. Its just fucked up
Come on already. Please?
These guys are open enough.
Eli is either
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Even when we had OBJ, Eli was
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
IMO Eli has played much better this year. I see less panic and more decisiveness. Mostly good throws. The defense is horrible - beyond horrible.
Quote:
eli finally has a decent line and now no weapons for him to use. Its just fucked up
Come on already. Please?
These guys are open enough.
Eli is either
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Even when we had OBJ, Eli was
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Yep and many were pointing to spreading the love around without OBJ
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In comment 14580737 GRBlue said:
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Someone nailed this when Lauletta got cut...
This is likely the reason Tanney is still around. Once they commit fully to DJ, you have to imagine Eli’s camp/DG will see if there’s any value out there in a trade. Makes sense to have a vet around DJ.
I've been saying this the past few days but I wasn't suggesting a trade I was suggesting releasing Eli allowing him to go to the team of his choice.
I agree with releasing him if Eli wants to keep playing this year and there is someone out there who wants him.
Just so that whomever floated that idea realizes there is no cap savings by releasing him. Manning has a NTC that he can waive so he is in control of where he goes. So the basis of the theory that Manning has control when released doesn't hold water. While many say he has no trade value, I disagree. If only for the purpose of saving to pay his salary and allowing Manning to continue to play, DG could work out a late round pick.
This is likely the reason Tanney is still around. Once they commit fully to DJ, you have to imagine Eli’s camp/DG will see if there’s any value out there in a trade. Makes sense to have a vet around DJ.
That's nonsense. There are veteran QBs available - there's a good chance that Tanney himself wouldn't be on a roster if the Giants had released him.
If they go with Jones, there's no turning back, no matter how awful they are. So which veteran backup QB is irrelevant. Keeping Tanney around was just plain stupid.
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In comment 14580626 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
eli finally has a decent line and now no weapons for him to use. Its just fucked up
Come on already. Please?
These guys are open enough.
Eli is either
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Even when we had OBJ, Eli was
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
IMO Eli has played much better this year. I see less panic and more decisiveness. Mostly good throws.
Where are the points? Where is the third down success? Why is the opposing defense just targeting saquon and not worried about the pass?
Quote:
In comment 14580626 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
eli finally has a decent line and now no weapons for him to use. Its just fucked up
Come on already. Please?
These guys are open enough.
Eli is either
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Even when we had OBJ, Eli was
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
IMO Eli has played much better this year. I see less panic and more decisiveness. Mostly good throws. The defense is horrible - beyond horrible.
Hit me up with the rosemary glasses you got
I still think Eli gets 6 losses before we pull the plug.
yeah, the fact that it reeks of desperation and brings into question how good of a plan it was to begin, and how capable those planners are, is probably reason #1 Gettleman and Mara wont let him do it.
Hit me up with the rosemary glasses you got
No offense but you can see Eli being unable to take players to the next level and his own play is just nothing more than bottom tier of the league. No offense but the guys Eli has are the same guys Jones would have... I truly believe Jones will get more out of them..
IMO Eli has played much better this year. I see less panic and more decisiveness. Mostly good throws. The defense is horrible - beyond horrible.
Maybe you're on to something...lets get the Defense out of there.
Quote:
In comment 14580626 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
eli finally has a decent line and now no weapons for him to use. Its just fucked up
Come on already. Please?
These guys are open enough.
Eli is either
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
Even when we had OBJ, Eli was
-missing them
-staring em down
-throwing too late
-or some combination of the above
IMO Eli has played much better this year. I see less panic and more decisiveness. Mostly good throws. The defense is horrible - beyond horrible.
Shurpmur came up with the perfect gameplan to get down by two or more scores against the best pass D in the league with a decimated receiving corp.
Eli looks faster this year, was outrunning Ed Oliver ffs.
He's exactly .500 now, sadly.
Well, the team needs a spark. They have ZERO juice going right now.
And honestly, only a change at QB can do that..........
It's impossible to know for sure but I absolutely would not discount that possibility. And I'm torn. On the one hand, ownership should not prevent their coach from starting the QB he believes is best-suited for his offense. On the other, the coach is fucking Pat Shurmur.
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In comment 14580791 Reale01 said:
Hit me up with the rosemary glasses you got
Thanks man : )
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It just won't look great if he retires with a sub 500 record. I'd like to get him out of there, if for nothing else than preserved a well-earned legacy as a winner.
He's exactly .500 now, sadly.
I think that's just regular season, but that is true. With the postseason he's 2 over now. 8-6, I believe.
Pick a side.
bw - can you please keep the tally...
I'm not keen on starting Jones with Shurrmur's poor decision making.
wtf is Tannet on this team??????
The contract was made 5 years ago. Eli looking like he intentionally whats to retire. Giants are dumb for not getting back sing a magic 8 ball before giving him that contract. Good news is Eli broomed me up and even gave me his head coach so that itself is worth the money
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing... but I think they did have a plan, and they really thought this was a roster capable of winning football games. So they invested in a proven commodity like Eli Manning.
But I can't decide what's worse: The team having no plan, or the team thinking what they put on the field this year was a good plan.
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But, we paid Eli $23M this year to start 2 games? That money could have been invested in the defense. This is the stuff that makes people think the Giants have no plan.
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing... but I think they did have a plan, and they really thought this was a roster capable of winning football games. So they invested in a proven commodity like Eli Manning.
But I can't decide what's worse: The team having no plan, or the team thinking what they put on the field this year was a good plan.
I suspect it's the latter, and that's way worse. Giving Eli one final year at gunpoint even if you think he's done, at least it means you're assessing the talent on the roster properly.
The number of stop gaps these guys have employed since 2017 leads me to believe they honestly thought this thing was close. Maybe not close in terms of a SB, but at least a winning record. And they were way off in that assessment.
Go back to threads from February-March and you will see many of us pointing this out then. I must have listed what we could do with that money ten times.
Incompetence from Mara, Tisch, and Gettleman. Absolute incompetence.
If they pretty much knew the defense was going to be terrible and they were going to play the rookies to let them learn while taking their lumps...
If they knew or had a clue ditching OBJ would leave the receiving corps and the offense without a credible threat other than Barkley...
If they knew the goal was to play Jones, let him learn as much as possible while they headed toward another top-five pick and a boatload of 2020 cap room...
If they knew this season was just a second leg of multiple year "plan..."
Then they should have made the break after they drafted Jones, given Manning the opportunity for the proper send off he deserves. They should not have fostered a week-to-week speculative, BS QB controversy game that is unfair to Jones, the fan base, and grossly unfair to Manning.
It's not Manning's fault the defense sucks. It's not Manning's fault productive years were wasted on teams with dysfunctional offensive lines, dysfunctional offensive systems, and poor coaching. It's not Manning's fault management and ownership couldn't find a way to deal with a generational talent like Beckham. Team "culture" is fine but it can't cover tight ends over the middle, get the defense off the field on third down, or run the right pass route and catch the damn ball. I'm in my seventh decade of living with the Giants. I may die before I see another really good Giants team. That sucks.
I'm a big Eli fan and from what I've seen, I think DJ will do better than Eli. Sure both QBs would have less than stellar WRs but Jones can make quite a few plays better just by using his legs. I'm NOT suggesting DJ should run the ball a lot either. 2-3 a game maybe, quick roll outs and ability to move quickly away from a pass rush.
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But, we paid Eli $23M this year to start 2 games? That money could have been invested in the defense. This is the stuff that makes people think the Giants have no plan.
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing... but I think they did have a plan, and they really thought this was a roster capable of winning football games. So they invested in a proven commodity like Eli Manning.
But I can't decide what's worse: The team having no plan, or the team thinking what they put on the field this year was a good plan.
They strongly believe in bridging a rookie with a veteran. That, the timing of his roster bonus prior to the draft, respect to Eli letting him play out his contract and a dash of hope are what led to the 23M cap number. I didn't agree with it, I felt they should have released Eli and made a move for Keenum as a cheaper bridge guy that fits this O better but it is what it is. We'd still be 0-2 now though and people would blame that move for the bad start and would be crushing the front office all the same. They had to make a decision on Eli before the offseason, before they knew they would get their QB in the draft, so it's not as egregious as some make out it to be.
But I would hope that the team they are playing is way down at the bottom of that list...
Surprised it took so long to surface here. If you listened to Shurmur speak of Allen extending plays and other quarterbacks around the league doing the same, pretty easy to discern he s ready to play Jones.
Not the first time I ve heard him mention this