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A few observations about yesterday's game

gidiefor : Mod : 9/16/2019 1:36 pm
Engram missed a play in the second series he should have had early on, and I think Eli panicked a little after that one - To my eye he was forcing things a little, and was visibly tentative.

the WR corps without Sterling Shepard and Golden Tate is not very consistent. Benny Fowler missed a beauty and also got a catch knocked out of him.

Josh Allen was playing really well in the first half, and was a large reason the Bills went on three scoring drives. He was decisive, pinpoint accurate and made a bunch of plays where the receiver was being blanketed.

DeAndre Baker made a bunch of rookie mistakes in coverage and on his angles -- he clearly plays better in press than zone right now.

Markus Golden was very inconsistent. He got penetration early in the game and then became wildly undisciplined.

There were a bunch of momentum killers in the first half: two turn overs by Eli - the fumble turnover on the pressure and the interception driving for the score at the end of the half; The miss by Engram mentioned above; the hold by Solder; the Fowler drop, and the missed FG.

I have very mixed feeling about Eli right now - he doesn't seem to handle adversity well. There's a certain desperation he is exhibiting especially after duress.

I thought that there was a nice mix of pass and run and that Barkley did get his touches. He was not making yardage well in the second half.

Zeitler is playing hurt and played fairly well all things considered.

I thought Jackrabbit was meh yesterday -- he seemed just a step behind on a few plays Allen made on him

I also thought the play calling early on was good but starting with the third series there were some either questionable calls or just a bunch of poor execution

I really like the hand off to Fowler in the first series -- is was a nice change of pace play.

I didn't like the screen play to Engram, I think he's much better on crossing, sideline and seam routes.

The Giants should have won this game -- but they shot themselves in the foot repeatedly. We've seen this before. Enough already. I am reminded of something Parcells once told the team in the locker Room after a bad stretch: "Aren't you guys tired of this." I know I am.

It's especially frustrating to watch the mix of up and down this team puts out on Offense.

I can accept the rookie mistakes on the Defense, that will improve.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the offense when both Tate and Sterling Shepard are on the field if we can get there.

Last thought. I do think that Jones would be more of a spark than Eli right now. Maybe that would be an improvement. But if Jones goes in and keeps turning over the ball, that's also going to suck. It does seem inevitable that it will happen this season right now. Eric was right. We started the season with a full blown QB controversy.

Gidie...  
Tesla : 9/16/2019 1:40 pm : link
are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?
RE: Gidie...  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/16/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:
Quote:
are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?


I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be
Offense has a scoring issue  
Eli Wilson : 9/16/2019 1:44 pm : link
6th in the NFL in yards per game, 26th in points per game. Shooting themselves in the foot sounds about right.
RE: RE: Gidie...  
nygiants16 : 9/16/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14580463 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:


Quote:


are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?



I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be


it was not catchable, it his outstretched fingertips, are you kidding?
RE: RE: Gidie...  
jvm52106 : 9/16/2019 1:49 pm : link
In comment 14580463 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:


Quote:


are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?



I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be


That was a shitty pass... Also, I have to be honest, how much of the lack of use of EE and SB in the pass game is on the coaches or Eli just not picking the right guys.
RE: RE: Gidie...  
HoustonGiant : 9/16/2019 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14580463 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:


Quote:


are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?



I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be


The throw was high, but EE didn't miss it after jumping, he reached out and it hit his fingers. He could have made that catch.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/16/2019 1:52 pm : link
about that pass. I watched it a dozen times. Eli put it out with very good touch in a place where only Engram could get it. Engram has to exert himself and go up and get the ball.
It's crazy how to people can look at the same play  
Tesla : 9/16/2019 1:53 pm : link
and see two totally different things.

For the life of me I can't see how anyone could blame Engram and not Eli for that miss.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree and move on here.
RE: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree  
Tesla : 9/16/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14580510 gidiefor said:
Quote:
about that pass. I watched it a dozen times. Eli put it out with very good touch in a place where only Engram could get it. Engram has to exert himself and go up and get the ball.


You really think he "had very good touch" on the ball? Really?
Thanks for the insights, gidie  
exiled : 9/16/2019 1:55 pm : link
.
I think Engram has to catch that ball  
Burtman : 9/16/2019 2:06 pm : link
He doesn't get very much height on his jump.
Gidie...I listened to the game on FAN yesterday. I think  
Blue21 : 9/16/2019 2:09 pm : link
Banks mentioned they were in man coverage more in the second half. Is that true?
Good take Gidie  
Dinger : 9/16/2019 2:13 pm : link
But when Jones comes in then it will be Engrams fault.

Seriously, though, I am with you and get the feeling that Eli isn't right. Rushing throws, feeling pressure when there isn't and I mean how many times do we have to watch him throw a screen at Barkleys feet? Throw it to him and let him try to do something with it. If its a loss, maybe Shurmur will stop calling for a stupid a$$ screen that doesn't work. If he can make something out of it, super, we win. Don't make the judgement that its a busted play.....I digress.

Bring in Jones.
looked to me like Eli was trying to get it above the rush  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/16/2019 2:15 pm : link
which led to the ball being just out of the grasp of Engram. An inch lower or making an extraordinary catch would have led to a successful play. As it was someone (or both) had to be a little bit better.
I think what people are missing..  
Tesla : 9/16/2019 2:29 pm : link
is that the reason Engram doesn't jump higher is that he is also sprinting across the field on a crossing pattern. So if he jumps there he's not going to get to where the ball is....he's got to keep running full speed to do that.
Looked uncatchable to me  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/16/2019 2:34 pm : link
But I haven't watched the play since live
I'm just stuck at the Giants should have won that game  
jcn56 : 9/16/2019 2:41 pm : link
Josh Allen isn't that good - the Giants made him look like prime Peyton Manning.

They were awful in all phases of the game. Awful on D. Awful on O. Even STs missed a FG. There wasn't one aspect where the Giants performed to even a mediocre level.

Meanwhile, they made the Buffalo O look like an 90s throwback. And on offense, whether due to injuries, poor gameplan or shit execution - aside from their opening drive they never looked remotely competent.

So I'm not sure how they *should* have won that game.
the pass was high  
Mighty : 9/16/2019 2:42 pm : link
but that doesnt make it a bad pass. When they showed the behind the QB view the rusher had his hands up and the pass barely cleared his fingertips. It was the right touch on the ball to get it over the rush and EE should have come down with it. It wasnt an easy catch but its one he could have come down with.

It was clear that BUF made it a focused part of their gameplan to clog the gaps and maintain gap discipline and not get too far upfield to stop barkley and then if it was a pass to get their hands up.
That ball was too high to  
RollBlue : 9/16/2019 2:42 pm : link
catch. However, if it was much lower, looked to me like it would have been deflected at the line. The miss on that play was Brakley coming of the field and throwing a pass on second and 5, w/o even selling play action, after we had run the ball down their throats - this coaching staff is clueless.

Besides, why should a handful of missed plays matter when they have so much beef - lol
engram play second drive  
2cents : 9/16/2019 2:43 pm : link
turning point in the game. yes its a 'catch-able' ball but barely so. it would have taken a great play by engram to come down with that and probably resulting in him leaving his feet.

On the other hand, eli overthrew him terribly, it was a basic slant with engram running free away from his man. a half decent throw would have sprung him for a big gain.
RE: RE: Gidie...  
Reale01 : 9/16/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14580463 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:


Quote:


are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?



I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be


The ball cleared the defensive lineman's hand by about kalf an inch. It could not have been thrown lower.
RE: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree  
Nine-Tails : 9/16/2019 3:07 pm : link
In comment 14580510 gidiefor said:
Quote:
about that pass. I watched it a dozen times. Eli put it out with very good touch in a place where only Engram could get it. Engram has to exert himself and go up and get the ball.


I think this is just a bad take. Ball was wobbly and high and not on target. Engram was crossing and Eli failed to lead him, poor ball placement. Watching Jones, he would placed that not only Engram would easily grab it but also gain yards after the catch.
RE: It's crazy how to people can look at the same play  
Johnny5 : 9/16/2019 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14580512 Tesla said:
Quote:
and see two totally different things.

For the life of me I can't see how anyone could blame Engram and not Eli for that miss.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree and move on here.

My take: Eli had to throw it over the DL rushing. It was high because it had to be, and I also felt that Engram could have made the catch even though it was high.

That said, I do agree with what Gidie says about Eli. He was rattled. I think it's time for Jones, assuming he is able to keep the fumbling under control.
My personal preference would be for them to wait two weeks....  
Britt in VA : 9/16/2019 3:17 pm : link
until Sheppard and Tate are back. I want them to be in as good a position as possible for Jones, because once they start him, there's no going back to Manning. It will be Jones' team.
RE: My personal preference would be for them to wait two weeks....  
Go Terps : 9/16/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14580725 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
until Sheppard and Tate are back. I want them to be in as good a position as possible for Jones, because once they start him, there's no going back to Manning. It will be Jones' team.


Jones has to play now for two fundamental reasons:

1. We need to know what we have in him ASAP because drafting a quarterback high in April should not be out of our list of considerations.
2. The sooner Jones plays the closer we are to firing Gettleman and Shurmur, as their list of excuses will have run out.
I thought the throw to Engram was high,  
Everyone Relax : 9/16/2019 3:27 pm : link
but I can see a world where he should have caught it. But the bigger issue is the 3rd down incompletion immediately following that play. You can say whatever you want about there being pressure and Eli having to rush the throw, but it's sad that we have to keep making that same excuse. It's become just expected by us that when there is the slightest pressure it's going to be a sack, incomplete pass or interception. We've all been watching this for so long now that we forget there's a fourth option! Escaping the pocket and finding an open passing/running lane! It's time to move on.
RE: RE: Gidie...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/16/2019 3:29 pm : link
In comment 14580463 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:


Quote:


are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?



I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be
That ball was high and wide. I disagree too. Engram is 6'3. That's a bad miss if you can't put it where he can get it.
The 2020 QB prospects can’t be dismissed..  
Sean : 9/16/2019 3:33 pm : link
If we go 3-13 and Jones gets pounded, he should be compared to Tua, Herbert, Fromm, etc. This is why it is so essential for him to get a lot of playing time.
RE: RE: My personal preference would be for them to wait two weeks....  
Britt in VA : 9/16/2019 3:35 pm : link
In comment 14580751 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14580725 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


until Sheppard and Tate are back. I want them to be in as good a position as possible for Jones, because once they start him, there's no going back to Manning. It will be Jones' team.



Jones has to play now for two fundamental reasons:

1. We need to know what we have in him ASAP because drafting a quarterback high in April should not be out of our list of considerations.
2. The sooner Jones plays the closer we are to firing Gettleman and Shurmur, as their list of excuses will have run out.


Those two things can still happen in two weeks. I'd really love for him to have a full arsenal when he gets in there.
As much as I agree with the logic to playing Jones ASAP  
jcn56 : 9/16/2019 3:38 pm : link
being sound - I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you think the Giants will operate that way.

They could literally go winless this year - short of a player revolt in the locker room, Gettleman is back next year. Jones will get more than this year, regardless. Shurmur I'm not so sure about, but I think they'd have to really hit the skids before they show him the door.

Whether it's rational or not (and I think it's crazy), the entire cast of characters is likely back at it for at least 2020.
Shepard and Tate are JAGs at this point  
Go Terps : 9/16/2019 3:40 pm : link
If that's a full arsenal then we don't have an arsenal. If those two guys are the difference in Jones's success or failure, then we shouldn't have drafted him.

It's over for Eli. He should never have been here to start the year to begin with. Why subject him (and us) to another indignity?

IT IS OVER.
RE: The 2020 QB prospects can’t be dismissed..  
Nine-Tails : 9/16/2019 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14580770 Sean said:
Quote:
If we go 3-13 and Jones gets pounded, he should be compared to Tua, Herbert, Fromm, etc. This is why it is so essential for him to get a lot of playing time.


Jordan Love is another guy. But I give Jones till 2021. Then you got guys like Lawrence and Justin Fields
RE: As much as I agree with the logic to playing Jones ASAP  
DavidinBMNY : 9/16/2019 3:42 pm : link
In comment 14580790 jcn56 said:
Quote:
being sound - I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you think the Giants will operate that way.

They could literally go winless this year - short of a player revolt in the locker room, Gettleman is back next year. Jones will get more than this year, regardless. Shurmur I'm not so sure about, but I think they'd have to really hit the skids before they show him the door.

Whether it's rational or not (and I think it's crazy), the entire cast of characters is likely back at it for at least 2020.
I just hope they are sicker of losing of fans, feel desperate and change it up.
RE: Shepard and Tate are JAGs at this point  
Nine-Tails : 9/16/2019 3:42 pm : link
In comment 14580796 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If that's a full arsenal then we don't have an arsenal. If those two guys are the difference in Jones's success or failure, then we shouldn't have drafted him.

It's over for Eli. He should never have been here to start the year to begin with. Why subject him (and us) to another indignity?

IT IS OVER.


JAGS might be bit much, but I hated signing Tate when we had Shep and then extending Shep when we have Tate long term. Redundant. Though Tate is better
RE: RE: Gidie...  
section125 : 9/16/2019 3:42 pm : link
In comment 14580463 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14580452 Tesla said:


Quote:


are you blaming Engram for that awful throw Eli made on the 2nd drive? Are you joking?



I'm sorry Tesla -- Engram should have caught that ball. It was a very makable play. That's the difference between a JAG and a good player, which is what Engram is supposed to be


I agree with Tesla. Eli threw it way to high and way. It was a terrible pass.
People are forgetting this...  
5BowlsSoon : 9/16/2019 3:44 pm : link
WE CANT DO ANY WORSE PLAYING JONES NOW!

Eli led offense has gotten us 14 points each game. You don’t think Jones can lead us to 14 points?

We really have nothing to lose and DJ can get experience. Trade Eli to Pittsburgh. Stick a fork in him, he is done. Come on fellas, he will be 39 in January.
RE: My personal preference would be for them to wait two weeks....  
AcesUp : 9/16/2019 3:49 pm : link
In comment 14580725 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
until Sheppard and Tate are back. I want them to be in as good a position as possible for Jones, because once they start him, there's no going back to Manning. It will be Jones' team.


We have the Bucs and Redskins these upcoming two weeks. I'd rather get Jones in there vs those defenses than start him out vs. the Vikings followed by a road Thursday Nighter vs. the Patriots. That pats game especially is brutal with the short week. It's now or Week 7 and I think you really have to make the move now.
Shepard is JAG on the NYG  
Overseer : 9/16/2019 4:04 pm : link
he would be a 90+ catch guy on teams that are not dumpster fires (NE/GB/KC etc). He's a good player.
RE: RE: My personal preference would be for them to wait two weeks....  
santacruzom : 9/16/2019 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14580751 Go Terps said:
Quote:


1. We need to know what we have in him ASAP because drafting a quarterback high in April should not be out of our list of considerations.


Even if a draft-eligible QB projects to be the next Mahomes and the Giants are capable of drafting him, I don't think they do.

It's a shame that we might wind up in a position where we admire the conviction and foresight of the Arizona Cardinals, yet that could easily come to pass.
Just watched..  
Bradshaw's Decal : 9/16/2019 4:39 pm : link
the throw to Engram 4 or 5 more times... A player with Engrams athletic ability catches that ball 9 out of 10 times... I love his potential but it seemed as though he sometimes gives less than max effort because he is so athleticly gifted..
I think Jones would provide a spark too...  
BillKo : 9/16/2019 4:58 pm : link
......and in particular, in the broken play department.

That literally could account for 10 more points per game IMO.

The thing that is puzzling to me: our OL is clearly better. But we refuse to run more vertical routes, nor utilize Barkley down the field in mismatches.

It seems to be this short passing game is doomed before it begins.
FWIW, Engram Just Doesn't Seem The Playmaker  
clatterbuck : 9/16/2019 5:06 pm : link
we all expected. Some teases but he's not a difference maker. Maybe it's how he's being used.
Why is Ellison  
XBRONX : 9/16/2019 5:09 pm : link
getting paid $4.5 million again?
Clatterbuck  
Bradshaw's Decal : 9/16/2019 5:12 pm : link
My thoughts as well... He's been in the league long enough to have developed a little more if he has it in him... and it might be how we use him. Seems to play with a little inhibition...
“Giants should have won”?  
KWALL2 : 9/16/2019 6:57 pm : link
Why? They were outplayed all day. They were clearly the inferior team.
gidie  
GiantsFan84 : 9/16/2019 7:15 pm : link
eli couldn't even throw a spiral on that pass to EE. what game were you watching?
Replay of pass...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/16/2019 7:33 pm : link
RE: Replay of pass...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/16/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14581239 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:


Sorry, didn't work. Don't have my normal tools for making these.
RE: I'm just stuck at the Giants should have won that game  
Matt M. : 9/16/2019 9:56 pm : link
In comment 14580642 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Josh Allen isn't that good - the Giants made him look like prime Peyton Manning.

They were awful in all phases of the game. Awful on D. Awful on O. Even STs missed a FG. There wasn't one aspect where the Giants performed to even a mediocre level.

Meanwhile, they made the Buffalo O look like an 90s throwback. And on offense, whether due to injuries, poor gameplan or shit execution - aside from their opening drive they never looked remotely competent.

So I'm not sure how they *should* have won that game.
Too many people simply assumed this was a very winnable based solely on playing home and playing the Bills. The reality is that the Giants should not consider any game very winnable, even against the Dolphins.
The play calling? Good?  
Matt M. : 9/16/2019 10:00 pm : link
The first drive was a thing of beauty. The call to Fowler was a nice wrinkle. Then comes drive 2, Barkley gains 5 and is removed for Gallman the rest of the painfully short series for some reason. For a good portion of the remainder, they went away from the types of runs that worked on the first drive and decided to pound it inside, where the Bills were stuffing the box. It's like they were not watching what Buffalo was doing. Then, they counter that by getting pass happy, as if the first drive established the run and that was that.
RE: Gidie...I listened to the game on FAN yesterday. I think  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/16/2019 10:02 pm : link
In comment 14580569 Blue21 said:
Quote:
Banks mentioned they were in man coverage more in the second half. Is that true?


that may be so
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