I'd like to think it was for insurance in case Jones wasn't ready from the start. Since Jones came in the door, I think he's been better than most expected early on, including management.
Now you can make the argument that you don't take a QB 6 overall if you don't think he's capable of starting right away but that's a different argument for a different day.
Bottom line is this decision was the right one for today. Everything leading up to it is certainly in question.
RE: RE: Nobody could have predicted Jones would be ready to be Â
but predicting the team performance with Eli wasn't that hard.
For you or me, maybe. But it's been very clear for a long time that the front office doesn't see it the same way.Either because they weren't looking objectively, or they were acting out of a sense of guilt for how the last 5 years have gone and felt like they owed him something.
Well Mcadoo did want Mahomes so maybe he wasn’t as dumb as we thought
bingo !!
also maybe the poison locker room culture the past few years has been because there has been an overpaid mediocre QB - that has been treated differently than the rest of the team .
Just like last year the plan was "to compete" and after 8 games they sold off anyone they could except Collins and finished 5-11.
This year the plan was "to compete" and then after @ games the rest of the world got a look at the defense and the coaching staff and now the GM and coach are playing their last card. The this year doesn't count against us because we're playing our prize rookie while we try to match last years 5 wins.
Meanwhile is there anyone that doesn't own or work for the Giants left who thinks this HC with his career record under .300 and this GM who drafts run stoppers and RBs with premium picks are going to build a team that can compete to win the NFC East?
Yep. I think their awful start is worse than they thought they'd be. They may not win 4 games based on what we have seen thus far. The defense is that bad.
Bettcher is definitely going to be in the hot seat if he doesn't fix it.
Better to put the kid in now to change the narrative. Still tickets to sell.
The Giants are a fucking clownshow. A clownshow. These are not competent professionals running the show. There is absolutely zero reason Manning should have been a NYG to start the 2019 season outside of sentimentalism. Period.
A JAG filled roster coming off 3-13 & 5-11 who traded 1/2 of their only major difference makers (which I was heartily for, separate discussion) and who now have - oh boy! - Markus Golden and Golden Tate and Jabril Peppers and Remmers...that team is toooootally ready to go head to head with Philadelphia (who the Giants have beaten in like 2 meaningful games since 2010) & Dallas and the Pats.
Better keep the immobile & overtly in decline Manning out there just in case we can put together 9-7 and sneak into the playoffs!
It’s a pathetic trainwreck. The same one we’ve been watching basically since 2013 interrupted only by baller OBJ slants to the house.
One can only pray that Jones is so Aaron Rodgers level amazing to compensate for the galactic amount of incompetence of the flailing disasters that run & coach the team.
They couldn't run naked at QB into the draft and they certainly weren't going to cut him in the middle of the offseason which would be an even uglier divorce than with Simms. 23M is a lot of money to pay for some draft deception and respect though, they should have made the move before the season and replaced him with a cheap bridge QB.
They could have signed a journeyman QB for much less.
Bringing back Eli is a Mara call and I think that involvement is the worst sign. And this is coming from someone who really does not like Gettleman. To me though, it’s highly unlikely once Jones was drafted, Gettleman wanted Eli back. The big advantage here would have been having an e tea $20 million to spend on the defense & Gettleman had to know the defense was going to be bad. I’m sure he wanted to bring in a pass rush & a LB who can cover. I think Eli’s return was an owner decision
They couldn't run naked at QB into the draft and they certainly weren't going to cut him in the middle of the offseason which would be an even uglier divorce than with Simms. 23M is a lot of money to pay for some draft deception and respect though, they should have made the move before the season and replaced him with a cheap bridge QB.
They could have signed a journeyman QB for much less.
That was certainly an option. It's one that bw may have hit on the head when he said it was payment for services rendered. In the end, they wanted to let Eli play out his contract and not cut him. That was more important to the organization than some cap savings. There was probably a dash of hope in there as well, but it really boiled down to not wanting to cut a Mount Rushmore Giant with only 1 year left on his contract.
I wouldn't have a problem with blind loyalty wanting to give Eli one last season to say goodbye, ride out the end of his contract for the transition to Jones to be a veteran presence on the bench.
I'm afraid that the Giants inability to scout themselves is so bad, though, that they actually thought they had a chance of winning something this year.
there's no question this is it.
I don't think they really thought their defense would be so tragic.
Intentionally tried to fuck up the handling of Eli’s decline, they still couldnt have fucked it up as bad as they actually did.
Anyone who was on board with bringing Eli back in 2019 needs to be fired. Maybe it was all John Mara, but if Gettleman actually wanted Eli on the team then he needs to go.
There was zero upside for any of the involved parties in bringing Eli back. It didnt benefit Eli, didnt benefit the Giants, didnt benefit the fans, the team. No one.
don't work out. They had to decide on his roster bonus in March. If they dumped him then they'd have signed someone like Fitzpatrick or Keenum for a lot less money, but I'm not sure we would have been able to use that money all that effectively anyways bc FA dried up real quickly, but yes that would have been better to have $ than not.
Assuming the draft played out the same way it did we'd have ended up in the same spot we're in right now with either of those guys, IMO with having handled the best QB in FA history in an even worse fashion. No other team was going to sign him to start and cutting him for a mediocre vet is worse than benching him for a promising young player. Absent a promising young QB ready to give the team a chance to win there was no reason to cut Eli for an inferior placeholder.
In March the Giants had no idea who'd be available in the Draft. So unless they were picking up a Free-Agent Starter, Eli was the best choice.
Once they paid him the $5M roster bonus, there was almost no chance he was getting cut.
I'm not real familiar with the Cap stuff, but assume they pick up the "cheap" Fitzpatrick. He is getting Paid 5M this year and I think 6M next.
So you'd have 10M this year in the QB position, and this is where I'd need help, but if Eli's bonus then moves to next year as dead money, that is about 6.5M and Fitz would be like 1.5M.
So keeping Eli at least releases you from the cap burden this year and not spread it to next.
You don’t draft a developmental project with the 6th overall pick.
I don't believe in putting a player on the field if he's not mentally and physically ready. That's how you get someone seriously hurt. There are no absolute rules. Every player is different.
well the guys who made that decision will continue to make more decisions. So it kinda matters if they are competent or not.
Honestly Mara should just jump on this grenade. Say it was all his idea and done out of loyalty and respect for Eli.
I think people will accept that.
[/quote]
Or they'll just use it as more evidence that the Giants are a terribly run organization. But honestly, this is all academic. People who don't like the way the Giants are doing business have plenty of ammunition to rant about it, until such time the team is winning again. Nature of the beast.
When people are wrong about things they can't wait to put those issues to rest.
Now is the perfect time to be asking these questions, because the front office that made this error is still calling the shots.
Bringing Eli back was incredibly stupid, and the people that did that should answer for it.
I don't think any level of this organization self-scouts well enough.
Ownership is trapped in the past, and fueled in their thinking by two flukey championships.
Until they hire an outside voice to provide a modern perspective these problems will continue. Because right now this is a lost organization that doesn't know which way is up.
and once he is gone they will act rationally again.
And no, this is not an anti-Eli thread, unless you think being such a great person that people do stupid things to keep you around is a negative trait.
Bringing Eli back would have made A LOT more sense Â
given this is the day the house of cards finally completely collapsed TODAY on the Eli can still win thing that we invested so much in over the last two years.
Tomorrow would still be early to call off the dogs, it just happened. This organization above all doesn't deserve any favors in getting a break on this. They clearly need help from the fans to get over this nepotism and sentimental BS they are running the team with
in March to pay the roster bonus to Eli. They picked the Eli you know vs. the journeyman vet QB you don't. I have no big problem with it, but this is not how teams turn things around quickly.
here's a very simple ? to anyone who thinks keeping Eli was a mistake Â
do you think Daniel Jones is better or worse off from spending the last 4-5 months around Eli Manning in training camp, practice, meeting rooms, and even on gamedays?
I for one think that answer is obvious - and at the end of the day, isn't the most important thing about this year doing everything possible to help bring along our next franchise QB? They obviously didn't know that they were going to get Daniel Jones when they made the decision to not cut Eli, but the obviousness of how helpful he has always been as a teammate has always been plain as day for whenever they did get their next QB. And I think his utility there is far beyond that of Ryan Fitzpatrick or Case Keenum as it relates to winning big games in NYC.
If they'd seen the future last March to know that:
1) we'd get our QB at #6 (ironically a guy who most of BBI shit on relentlessly) and
2) that he'd look ready to step into the NFL during the preseason
then perhaps money would have been better spent on a few extra veterans or a big signing for the D like CJ Mosely (or resigning Collins). But even in that alternative reality there's an opportunity cost, which is our new QB having the chance to spend time with the most successful QB in NY Giants history and one of the most professional QB's in NFL history. And of course there was the chance that they didn't get their QB in round 1 or actually won a few games with an improved OL (check) and defense (not a check...).
Especially the % of cap Eli is taking up. Coaches don't go in the cap. Hire as many coaches as you want.
You want to pay Peyton Manning a bunch of money to go to some meetings and talk to DJ, great.
Mentorship is not a legitimate reason to clog up your cap, it just isn't.
It wasn't just mentorship he was the best player available at his position. Coming off a good statistical season in this offense, which did develop some momentum and chemistry at the end of last year. He was both the best short term option as starter and the best mentor. Just not the best $ value.
RE: The benefit of Eli as a mentor is conjecture Â
after the 2017 season, the biggest disgrace of a season in ages... the giants brought in a new regime that thought that the team could win in 2018 and that Eli was still the right QB for the franchise.
After you process that you dont have to ask any more questions about where the issues lie with the franchise.
and that wasn't Reese and Mcadadoo. that was Mara and Gettlemen making an evaluation and a decision.
and we are 2yrs more behind on the rebuild because of it and still dont have a coach or system.
RE: The benefit of Eli as a mentor is conjecture Â
And even if that benefit does exist, does it outweigh a summer of starter's reps + $17 million in cap space?
There are two worlds:
1. The world the Giants and their shills live in; and
2. Reality.
There's a 3rd world which is the world of anyone would have been a better option than keeping Eli. This world has no consensus on who that better option would have been considering they didn't know they were getting Jones in March. The tangible benefit of this world is the 'cap savings' to go out and sign more Golden Tate, Antoine Bethea, and Markus Goldens to complain about being overpaid or just not very good in the first place - because that's basically the majority of what happens in free agency.
after the 2017 season, the biggest disgrace of a season in ages... the giants brought in a new regime that thought that the team could win in 2018 and that Eli was still the right QB for the franchise.
After you process that you dont have to ask any more questions about where the issues lie with the franchise.
and that wasn't Reese and Mcadadoo. that was Mara and Gettlemen making an evaluation and a decision.
and we are 2yrs more behind on the rebuild because of it and still dont have a coach or system.
Mara is not a good owner. I don't see anyone defending him because the 1 good decision he's made in 20 years he barely even made (hiring Coughlin). The fact that he completely botched replacing Coughlin in the first place, after years of botched leadership before that, shouldn't be a huge surprise. Nor should it be a surprise that he handled a difficult situation poorly (transitioning from Eli).
As far as Gettleman goes I think 19 games is early to lump him in with Mara entirely. Taking a year to evaluate the landscape was reasonable and if Jones ends up being the real deal does how we got there even matter?
There's also the possibility that Mara didn't want to hear Â
“We’ll go into this season because we have different issues. One of the biggest issues we had last year that we had to fix was what? The locker room. And both Jonathan Stewart and Patrick Omameh are true professionals, and they were brought here for a specific purpose, they were brought here for other reasons than their play. Just understand that,” Gettleman said. “We feel like we’ve turned that corner, especially with this rookie class.”
.
This is what Gettleman said before the 2019 season:
Quote:
"There's more to it than just collecting talent," said Gettleman. "There is a cultural thing to it that's critical. I have not been on a team that’s gone to a Super Bowl that's had a culture problem."
Asked if the Giants had one, a smiling Gettleman responded, "Not anymore."
There are Giant fans that think this is the guy that's going to build a Super Bowl team in the 2020's?
The NFL is a pretty simple deal. Winning is the culture. Winning teams don't have locker room problems that we ever hear about. Guess what every team in the NFL has a locker room problem including NE. But the winning teams manage it and keep it manageable by winning. Winning is the only thing that makes a tolerable NFL locker room.
A GM who says thing like analytics are a crook and Jonathan Stewart hasn't lost anything after 10 years is the guy you want in the Mara's ears and influencing the direction of the team going forward? It's painfully obvious neither of the Mara's have any network or any idea how to run a team they need someone from this century's NFL influencing them not a guy in his late 60s'
but predicting the team performance with Eli wasn't that hard.
Now you can make the argument that you don't take a QB 6 overall if you don't think he's capable of starting right away but that's a different argument for a different day.
Bottom line is this decision was the right one for today. Everything leading up to it is certainly in question.
Quote:
An option right away.
but predicting the team performance with Eli wasn't that hard.
For you or me, maybe. But it's been very clear for a long time that the front office doesn't see it the same way.Either because they weren't looking objectively, or they were acting out of a sense of guilt for how the last 5 years have gone and felt like they owed him something.
And for punitive damages due to the 2017 debacle that Mara created...
You don’t draft a developmental project with the 6th overall pick.
I was saying to start him immediately the moment he was drafted.
People are saying that Gettleman/Shurmur are tied to Jones, but they shouldn't be.
<i>They should be tied to the decision to bring back Eli.</i>
My exact words when they paid Eli his bonus in March were "Ok... Better fucking win."
So go win.
bingo !!
also maybe the poison locker room culture the past few years has been because there has been an overpaid mediocre QB - that has been treated differently than the rest of the team .
This year the plan was "to compete" and then after @ games the rest of the world got a look at the defense and the coaching staff and now the GM and coach are playing their last card. The this year doesn't count against us because we're playing our prize rookie while we try to match last years 5 wins.
Meanwhile is there anyone that doesn't own or work for the Giants left who thinks this HC with his career record under .300 and this GM who drafts run stoppers and RBs with premium picks are going to build a team that can compete to win the NFC East?
Bettcher is definitely going to be in the hot seat if he doesn't fix it.
Better to put the kid in now to change the narrative. Still tickets to sell.
In comment 14582555 Jim in Forest Hills said:
The Giants are a fucking clownshow. A clownshow. These are not competent professionals running the show. There is absolutely zero reason Manning should have been a NYG to start the 2019 season outside of sentimentalism. Period.
A JAG filled roster coming off 3-13 & 5-11 who traded 1/2 of their only major difference makers (which I was heartily for, separate discussion) and who now have - oh boy! - Markus Golden and Golden Tate and Jabril Peppers and Remmers...that team is toooootally ready to go head to head with Philadelphia (who the Giants have beaten in like 2 meaningful games since 2010) & Dallas and the Pats.
Better keep the immobile & overtly in decline Manning out there just in case we can put together 9-7 and sneak into the playoffs!
It’s a pathetic trainwreck. The same one we’ve been watching basically since 2013 interrupted only by baller OBJ slants to the house.
One can only pray that Jones is so Aaron Rodgers level amazing to compensate for the galactic amount of incompetence of the flailing disasters that run & coach the team.
They could have signed a journeyman QB for much less.
Wtf is Mara thinking that this is the lasting memory we want of Eli instead of outright parting ways before the season started?
Quote:
They couldn't run naked at QB into the draft and they certainly weren't going to cut him in the middle of the offseason which would be an even uglier divorce than with Simms. 23M is a lot of money to pay for some draft deception and respect though, they should have made the move before the season and replaced him with a cheap bridge QB.
They could have signed a journeyman QB for much less.
That was certainly an option. It's one that bw may have hit on the head when he said it was payment for services rendered. In the end, they wanted to let Eli play out his contract and not cut him. That was more important to the organization than some cap savings. There was probably a dash of hope in there as well, but it really boiled down to not wanting to cut a Mount Rushmore Giant with only 1 year left on his contract.
Quote:
be better.
I'm afraid this is correct.
I wouldn't have a problem with blind loyalty wanting to give Eli one last season to say goodbye, ride out the end of his contract for the transition to Jones to be a veteran presence on the bench.
I'm afraid that the Giants inability to scout themselves is so bad, though, that they actually thought they had a chance of winning something this year.
there's no question this is it.
I don't think they really thought their defense would be so tragic.
Anyone who was on board with bringing Eli back in 2019 needs to be fired. Maybe it was all John Mara, but if Gettleman actually wanted Eli on the team then he needs to go.
There was zero upside for any of the involved parties in bringing Eli back. It didnt benefit Eli, didnt benefit the Giants, didnt benefit the fans, the team. No one.
Shame on the Giants for doing this to Eli
Couldn't agree more, Mook.
He won his final game in 2017 against WSH and got an ovation leaving the field. That was the time.
Assuming the draft played out the same way it did we'd have ended up in the same spot we're in right now with either of those guys, IMO with having handled the best QB in FA history in an even worse fashion. No other team was going to sign him to start and cutting him for a mediocre vet is worse than benching him for a promising young player. Absent a promising young QB ready to give the team a chance to win there was no reason to cut Eli for an inferior placeholder.
In March the Giants had no idea who'd be available in the Draft. So unless they were picking up a Free-Agent Starter, Eli was the best choice.
Once they paid him the $5M roster bonus, there was almost no chance he was getting cut.
I'm not real familiar with the Cap stuff, but assume they pick up the "cheap" Fitzpatrick. He is getting Paid 5M this year and I think 6M next.
So you'd have 10M this year in the QB position, and this is where I'd need help, but if Eli's bonus then moves to next year as dead money, that is about 6.5M and Fitz would be like 1.5M.
So keeping Eli at least releases you from the cap burden this year and not spread it to next.
Let's put it to rest.
Let's put it to rest.
Quote:
An option right away.
You don’t draft a developmental project with the 6th overall pick.
I don't believe in putting a player on the field if he's not mentally and physically ready. That's how you get someone seriously hurt. There are no absolute rules. Every player is different.
Let's put it to rest.
When does BBI put anything to rest? ;-)
Let's put it to rest.
yup, it's just one more bad decision to add to the list since DG got here. But don't worry - none of those moves are indicative of what's to come!
Now is the perfect time to be asking these questions, because the front office that made this error is still calling the shots.
Bringing Eli back was incredibly stupid, and the people that did that should answer for it.
Quote:
Time to look forward, not back.
Let's put it to rest.
When does BBI put anything to rest? ;-)
well the guys who made that decision will continue to make more decisions. So it kinda matters if they are competent or not.
Honestly Mara should just jump on this grenade. Say it was all his idea and done out of loyalty and respect for Eli.
I think people will accept that.
well the guys who made that decision will continue to make more decisions. So it kinda matters if they are competent or not.
Honestly Mara should just jump on this grenade. Say it was all his idea and done out of loyalty and respect for Eli.
I think people will accept that.
[/quote]
Or they'll just use it as more evidence that the Giants are a terribly run organization. But honestly, this is all academic. People who don't like the way the Giants are doing business have plenty of ammunition to rant about it, until such time the team is winning again. Nature of the beast.
Now is the perfect time to be asking these questions, because the front office that made this error is still calling the shots.
Bringing Eli back was incredibly stupid, and the people that did that should answer for it.
I don't think any level of this organization self-scouts well enough.
When Eli got paid, there's a good chance the Giants did not know who would be the pick at the time.
Quote:
When people are wrong about things they can't wait to put those issues to rest.
Now is the perfect time to be asking these questions, because the front office that made this error is still calling the shots.
Bringing Eli back was incredibly stupid, and the people that did that should answer for it.
I don't think any level of this organization self-scouts well enough.
Ownership is trapped in the past, and fueled in their thinking by two flukey championships.
Until they hire an outside voice to provide a modern perspective these problems will continue. Because right now this is a lost organization that doesn't know which way is up.
Their self-scouting seems off target, and they're making decisions based on optimism and hope.
$40M in cap space for Eli + OB, and neither will be playing.
In business you leave the feelings aside. They haven't for awhile..hence the state of the NY Giants today
And no, this is not an anti-Eli thread, unless you think being such a great person that people do stupid things to keep you around is a negative trait.
Tomorrow would still be early to call off the dogs, it just happened. This organization above all doesn't deserve any favors in getting a break on this. They clearly need help from the fans to get over this nepotism and sentimental BS they are running the team with
I for one think that answer is obvious - and at the end of the day, isn't the most important thing about this year doing everything possible to help bring along our next franchise QB? They obviously didn't know that they were going to get Daniel Jones when they made the decision to not cut Eli, but the obviousness of how helpful he has always been as a teammate has always been plain as day for whenever they did get their next QB. And I think his utility there is far beyond that of Ryan Fitzpatrick or Case Keenum as it relates to winning big games in NYC.
If they'd seen the future last March to know that:
1) we'd get our QB at #6 (ironically a guy who most of BBI shit on relentlessly) and
2) that he'd look ready to step into the NFL during the preseason
then perhaps money would have been better spent on a few extra veterans or a big signing for the D like CJ Mosely (or resigning Collins). But even in that alternative reality there's an opportunity cost, which is our new QB having the chance to spend time with the most successful QB in NY Giants history and one of the most professional QB's in NFL history. And of course there was the chance that they didn't get their QB in round 1 or actually won a few games with an improved OL (check) and defense (not a check...).
Especially the % of cap Eli is taking up. Coaches don't go in the cap. Hire as many coaches as you want.
You want to pay Peyton Manning a bunch of money to go to some meetings and talk to DJ, great.
Mentorship is not a legitimate reason to clog up your cap, it just isn't.
There are two worlds:
1. The world the Giants and their shills live in; and
2. Reality.
Especially the % of cap Eli is taking up. Coaches don't go in the cap. Hire as many coaches as you want.
You want to pay Peyton Manning a bunch of money to go to some meetings and talk to DJ, great.
Mentorship is not a legitimate reason to clog up your cap, it just isn't.
It wasn't just mentorship he was the best player available at his position. Coming off a good statistical season in this offense, which did develop some momentum and chemistry at the end of last year. He was both the best short term option as starter and the best mentor. Just not the best $ value.
There are two worlds:
1. The world the Giants and their shills live in; and
2. Reality.
I have to agree, the $17 million could have gone to some solid FAs and a journeyman QB could teach DJ the ropes. We coaches for a reason,
After you process that you dont have to ask any more questions about where the issues lie with the franchise.
and that wasn't Reese and Mcadadoo. that was Mara and Gettlemen making an evaluation and a decision.
and we are 2yrs more behind on the rebuild because of it and still dont have a coach or system.
There are two worlds:
1. The world the Giants and their shills live in; and
2. Reality.
There's a 3rd world which is the world of anyone would have been a better option than keeping Eli. This world has no consensus on who that better option would have been considering they didn't know they were getting Jones in March. The tangible benefit of this world is the 'cap savings' to go out and sign more Golden Tate, Antoine Bethea, and Markus Goldens to complain about being overpaid or just not very good in the first place - because that's basically the majority of what happens in free agency.
Ryan Fitzpatrick
2017
Y/A - 6.8
QBR - 59.7
2018
Y/A - 9.6
QBR - 62.1
Eli Manning
2017
Y/A - 6.1
QBR - 45.4
2018
Y/A - 7.5
QBR - 48.7
After you process that you dont have to ask any more questions about where the issues lie with the franchise.
and that wasn't Reese and Mcadadoo. that was Mara and Gettlemen making an evaluation and a decision.
and we are 2yrs more behind on the rebuild because of it and still dont have a coach or system.
Mara is not a good owner. I don't see anyone defending him because the 1 good decision he's made in 20 years he barely even made (hiring Coughlin). The fact that he completely botched replacing Coughlin in the first place, after years of botched leadership before that, shouldn't be a huge surprise. Nor should it be a surprise that he handled a difficult situation poorly (transitioning from Eli).
As far as Gettleman goes I think 19 games is early to lump him in with Mara entirely. Taking a year to evaluate the landscape was reasonable and if Jones ends up being the real deal does how we got there even matter?
Between Eli, Beckham, and Vernon we have $47M in cap space that is not performing on the field. That is 25%(!!!!) of the salary cap.
How can we compete?
This is what Gettleman said before the 2019 season:
Asked if the Giants had one, a smiling Gettleman responded, "Not anymore."
There are Giant fans that think this is the guy that's going to build a Super Bowl team in the 2020's?
The NFL is a pretty simple deal. Winning is the culture. Winning teams don't have locker room problems that we ever hear about. Guess what every team in the NFL has a locker room problem including NE. But the winning teams manage it and keep it manageable by winning. Winning is the only thing that makes a tolerable NFL locker room.
A GM who says thing like analytics are a crook and Jonathan Stewart hasn't lost anything after 10 years is the guy you want in the Mara's ears and influencing the direction of the team going forward? It's painfully obvious neither of the Mara's have any network or any idea how to run a team they need someone from this century's NFL influencing them not a guy in his late 60s'