This is not a call out thread. Just a diehard’s strong belief/opinion about blind loyalty vs loyalty as I define it. .
My Dad and Well Mara were the same age and so I remember Mara as a 40 year-old owner. WM was a terrible GM and we suffered for it. He was extremely loyal to his players and coaches and probably stayed with them longer than he should have. After all, he wasn’t a business man per se, his “business” was owning a football team. Thus, oft times his heart was too big and his team paid an awful price for a nearly two decade period.
That said, to my knowledge, he never, ever mandated to any of his HCs, who should play and who shouldn’t. He rarely, if ever, deviated from that mindset, again, to my knowledge.
John Mara is obviously from a different era and, truth be told, he too was and has been, too loyal to his players and to some degree his coaches. But I never, ever, bought into the narrative put forward, that, as an example, Eli was a playing mandate of his, Never. Loyal? Yes. Blindly loyal as to effect playing decision matters? No..Offer an opinion? You bet. But I believe he has stayed away from absolutes, vis a vis who must play and who shouldn’t.
My two cents on a narrative I never bought for a second.
Yes, But fit as hell...😂
Isn't that proof enough? Dunno
This.
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Wow you are old....
Yes, But fit as hell...😂
Waiter at the last supper!? You old bastid!
Anyway, I mostly agree. I don't think John interferes so to speak. I do think he is conservative to a fault and does not like to venture outside of his comfort zone so to speak.
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In comment 14583072 cjac said:
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Wow you are old....
Yes, But fit as hell...😂
Waiter at the last supper!? You old bastid!
Anyway, I mostly agree. I don't think John interferes so to speak. I do think he is conservative to a fault and does not like to venture outside of his comfort zone so to speak.
I would agree with that
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In comment 14583075 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 14583072 cjac said:
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Wow you are old....
Yes, But fit as hell...😂
Waiter at the last supper!? You old bastid!
Anyway, I mostly agree. I don't think John interferes so to speak. I do think he is conservative to a fault and does not like to venture outside of his comfort zone so to speak.
I would agree with that
Sorry for the redundant use of "so to speak"
Anyway, here's to better times my friend.
Remember the story of WM wanting to make a phone call from the Giant's office and not knowing how to get an outside line? He was a nice guy and a sweet man, but sorta clueless in a number of ways that made him not great CEO material.
^^^^
This!
You don't have to give a GM or a coach a directive. You simply have to ask them about their opinion about players, style of play, assistant coaching preferences, etc. You then only consider the ones who are in line with your thinking.
So it is reasoable to assume that both DG and Shurmur had positive things to say about Eli and MAY not have been considered if they expressed the view that Eli should be replaced. (Note the word "MAY".)
Isn't that proof enough? Dunno
I could be wrong, But I believe that Mara was led to believe by McAdoo, that he was going to navigate the future moving forward with Davis Webb, to see whether or not the kid was a viable option at QB. I believe he was surprised (shocked?) that Geno replaced Eli and was incensed as many of us were.
I do think the decisions of late have been born of trying to be safe and going for familiarity. I do believe Mara cares a lot and is probably just as frustrated as the fans. No one wants to have to find yet another coaching staff if they keep failing, and it hurts even more if Jones is a bust.
I'm not completely sour on Gettleman yet, he gets another offseason to continue adding more players to the roster, especially one where he has cap to work with and finished dumping the dead weight and albatross contracts. He's mostly improved the o-line. I'm sour on the coaching staff right now.
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I don't think he's ever mandated who is playing. I do think though that Gettleman was hired because he thought Eli could still play.
^^^^
This!
You don't have to give a GM or a coach a directive. You simply have to ask them about their opinion about players, style of play, assistant coaching preferences, etc. You then only consider the ones who are in line with your thinking.
So it is reasoable to assume that both DG and Shurmur had positive things to say about Eli and MAY not have been considered if they expressed the view that Eli should be replaced. (Note the word "MAY".)
Yep, add in the fact that the man who's legacy is tied to Eli Manning (Accorsi) was hired as a "consultant" in the GM hiring.
This couldn't be more wrong. Morona absolutely knew the plan because he asked Reese and McAdoo to draw up the transition plan. Morona signed off on the plan.
Then he was conveniently, in the week before the change is to occur in Oakland, out of town: and apparently, per him, had no access to contact Jints Central to make an adjustment to the plan. You just can't make it up...
So he comes back, the plan is executed. But Morona is so overwhelmed by blow back that he spins this yarn that he the plan wasn't quite what he wanted. Which was complete and utter bullsh-t.
Morona absolutely knew and killed McAdoo's and Reeses's career to cover his phony ass...
Only to be told he isn't yet ready. Followed by enormous criticism from every pundit and fan and NFL players, then I would so severely doubt my GM and coach that I would want a guy I knew would give me the straight scoop. Hence the familiar Gettleman. I think Gettleman is not about the lack of risk taking ( witness the out of the family somewhat risky head coaches they approached)...I think its a reaction to trusting and then being blindsided.
Its when he realized that he was too distant and trusting. As we know its a balance. Happens in every business and in the military. Delegation is an art with risk.
There is not a monolithic mistake free US Navy, CIA, Apple, Microsoft, etc
All speculation on my part but I would tend to agree with you
Thank God Matt Rhule coached here at one point if it comes to that. At least he is someone that has been here that is an up and comer.
Only to be told he isn't yet ready. Followed by enormous criticism from every pundit and fan and NFL players, then I would so severely doubt my GM and coach that I would want a guy I knew would give me the straight scoop. Hence the familiar Gettleman. I think Gettleman is not about the lack of risk taking ( witness the out of the family somewhat risky head coaches they approached)...I think its a reaction to trusting and then being blindsided.
Its when he realized that he was too distant and trusting. As we know its a balance. Happens in every business and in the military. Delegation is an art with risk.
There is not a monolithic mistake free US Navy, CIA, Apple, Microsoft, etc
All speculation on my part but I would tend to agree with you
And this is a massive part of the problem. They are reactionary. Total inability to put themselves outside the situation and look at it objectively.
I wonder what they’d say today.
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that when McAdoo pulled Eli for Geno that the F.O. directed McAdoo?
Isn't that proof enough? Dunno
I could be wrong, But I believe that Mara was led to believe by McAdoo, that he was going to navigate the future moving forward with Davis Webb, to see whether or not the kid was a viable option at QB. I believe he was surprised (shocked?) that Geno replaced Eli and was incensed as many of us were.
Yes, McAdoo sold him a bill of goods.
Simms had a resurgent probowl season in 1993. The salary cap was a new hurdle and George Young didn't like or care to understand the way it worked. He had to make cap room and decided to cut Simms. Simms backed out of the pro bowl so he could get surgery to prepare for the next season. Then the Giants cut him. It was a bad decision and the Dave Brown era started, for better or worse.....and we know how that turned out.
Eli Manning is now the guy we look at as a washed up former Super Bowl MVP, but not so much because he can't play. If he had the team that Simms had in 93 with a solid defense, great offensive line, he could possibly win more games. The truth is our defense is a complete mess. It used to be the unit you could count on. If Daniel Jones can win with this defense then we have a future super star on our hands....cuz I think it will be very hard to compete let alone win.
We can look at this situation and blame Mara for his loyalty, which is very easy to do.
I think the reality is we don't have a team strong enough or explosive enough to make up for any mistakes that the QB might make, regardless of who the QB is. This is more the reason for the switch than anything.
I will expect nothing but class from Eli. He will answer questions, support Jones and be a great teammate.
Number 10 will be retired and rightly so. But not until 2020.
Good luck following Manning, Daniel. I'll be rooting for you the whole way.
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that when McAdoo pulled Eli for Geno that the F.O. directed McAdoo?
Isn't that proof enough? Dunno
I could be wrong, But I believe that Mara was led to believe by McAdoo, that he was going to navigate the future moving forward with Davis Webb, to see whether or not the kid was a viable option at QB. I believe he was surprised (shocked?) that Geno replaced Eli and was incensed as many of us were.
I find it nearly impossible to believe that Mara did not know that the plan was to sit Eli for Geno Smith, at least at first, with the hope of eventually getting Davis Webb some snaps.
I also find it nearly impossible to believe that the fan and media blowback from that decision did not impact the subsequent decisions of who to hire as gm and coach.
Whether Mara was the one who insisted on yet another season for Eli after last year's debacle, who knows? If it was, then this is his fault. If it wasn't, then this is Gettleman's fault. I think we all understand at this point that the Giants were realistically never going to be a good team this year no matter what they did this past off season. But sacrificing 17 million in additional cap space to bring back a quarterback who they are bailing on after 2 games just demonstrates that the people making the decisions have no idea what they are doing. I personally hope its Gettleman because we can't fire the owner.
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In comment 14583084 I Love Clams Casino said:
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that when McAdoo pulled Eli for Geno that the F.O. directed McAdoo?
Isn't that proof enough? Dunno
I could be wrong, But I believe that Mara was led to believe by McAdoo, that he was going to navigate the future moving forward with Davis Webb, to see whether or not the kid was a viable option at QB. I believe he was surprised (shocked?) that Geno replaced Eli and was incensed as many of us were.
Yes, McAdoo sold him a bill of goods.
Funny but I thought so also.
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In comment 14583084 I Love Clams Casino said:
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that when McAdoo pulled Eli for Geno that the F.O. directed McAdoo?
Isn't that proof enough? Dunno
I could be wrong, But I believe that Mara was led to believe by McAdoo, that he was going to navigate the future moving forward with Davis Webb, to see whether or not the kid was a viable option at QB. I believe he was surprised (shocked?) that Geno replaced Eli and was incensed as many of us were.
I find it nearly impossible to believe that Mara did not know that the plan was to sit Eli for Geno Smith, at least at first, with the hope of eventually getting Davis Webb some snaps.
I also find it nearly impossible to believe that the fan and media blowback from that decision did not impact the subsequent decisions of who to hire as gm and coach.
Whether Mara was the one who insisted on yet another season for Eli after last year's debacle, who knows? If it was, then this is his fault. If it wasn't, then this is Gettleman's fault. I think we all understand at this point that the Giants were realistically never going to be a good team this year no matter what they did this past off season. But sacrificing 17 million in additional cap space to bring back a quarterback who they are bailing on after 2 games just demonstrates that the people making the decisions have no idea what they are doing. I personally hope its Gettleman because we can't fire the owner.
The fan/media blowback definitely shaped whats happened since, imo to the detriment of the franchise
1) knowing if all the QBS were picked ahead of you ( that's been known to happen and besides if you like a Qb then likely someone else does)
2) and to do so before you even know if he can learn the playbook or not get injured?
3) and all other stop gap QBs available cost about $17M and want more than one year contracts
Ok
For the most part I agree but not with Eli. The team tried however unfruitful to give Eli one more run. They tried coaches, GM's, coordinators all who I think had some impact on Mara's decision making.
What I do know about QB is that it is a the rarest of traits to have a QB who shows up in a big game. Very few NFL QB's could of gone through all Eli did in this market and persevered. Many all-time greats might even have struggled. QBR, arm strength, mobility etc. usually is not enough. There is also they cliche "Once a Giant, always a Giant" and I do think to Mara it means something.
Eli is among a handful of all time great Giants. More than that, he might have been the classiest. Eli meant a great deal to Mara.....the Giants have won 4 Super Bowls; many teams out there are still looking for the first.
All the attempts to put a good team around him failed. I think when Mcadoo benched him Mara again was influenced. The negative reaction was the worst I have seen from the fanbase and media. At that moment, I believe he decided they were going to honor his contract and try with DG and PS to make it work. It did not and was not going to.
Ultimately, I would not be surprised if they are not fully on board with the coaching and I would not be surprised if they team does not improve significantly they will get rid of Shurmur. DG is staying imo.