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That Golden Tate signing is looking dumber by the minute

Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/17/2019 12:08 pm
Sorry for all of these threads, but I lot of thoughts percolating in the old noggin.
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Eric  
DavidinBMNY : 9/17/2019 1:28 pm : link
To Follow up of the ~$37 mm, reported, they received ~$1.2 mm back already. and can recoup if they go another direction anonther $23mm after this year. I think that's how it break out. Something like that.

It was always really a 2 year contract, but the suspension made it an easy 1 yr exit.
My issue with the way Gettleman talks about culture  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 1:29 pm : link
and seems to operate, or more largely how the Giants seem to operate looks like they do not understand at all how to incorporate modern org psych.

Lean startup I think is a great framework by which to think about success. And you have to ask, how well is your organization incubating new ideas? I don't think you look at the Giants and imagine they are very good at doing this or even thinking about it.

The very notion that Gettleman has some special insights into like bringing in "his guys" and that working is kind of antiquated. The fact of the matter is that talent is demanding a better quality of life in all industries and the best organizations empower people and allow more natural power structures and balances to form not enforce them in draconian ways. Reverence can certainly exist but it isn't demanded.

This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.
Suspension is unfortunate  
SLIM_ : 9/17/2019 1:30 pm : link
but I think that the Giants have done everything in their power to make it comfortable for a young QB with the resources that they had available...

Re-inforce the line.

Become a run first team with Saquon (I expect his carries to go up once they start converting 3rd downs).

Get rid of a me-first WR and replace him with a professional.

RE: Eric  
MM_in_NYC : 9/17/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14583481 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
By luck it's less dumb then we may think. His guarentees are all voided because he was suspended. See the article below. They are free of any obligation to him , or practically free after this year. It's 7.9 mm less bad and potentially year 2-4 can be recouped entirely - ( New Window )


This is fantastic. Didn't know 2020 guarantees were voided.
RE: Anything can look dumb when you are 0-2  
mdc1 : 9/17/2019 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14583220 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
trading up for Deandre Baker was dumb.
trading Beckham for mostly Lawrence + Peppers was dumb.
changing to a 3-4 and bringing in bettcher was dumb.
etc.

it's a small sample size so maybe just maybe we should see how things play out.

Tate is a good player and we aren't exactly hurting for cap room going forward so I'd like to see him, you know, play a game before saying he was a dumb signing. I'd certainly prefer to see him on the receiving end of passes from Jones as opposed to Fowler starting.


paying Eli 15m? and then bench him was dumb...dumb is a virtue of this organization. He should have been released last year.
RE: ah..so Tate is a liar  
Chris in Philly : 9/17/2019 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14583473 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
got it.


I think that is pretty clear.
What's amazing to me is how much better Cody Core and TJ Jones  
loafin : 9/17/2019 1:43 pm : link
look than Fowler, Latimer and R. Shepard! That is some set of awful receivers we have.
Eric,  
GeofromNJ : 9/17/2019 2:04 pm : link
Is this your way of saying, by extension, that the Beckham trade looks dumber by the minute? Not saying such a thought would be wrong. Just wondering.
Disagree Eric  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/17/2019 2:07 pm : link
They wanted to give Eli a proven Vet for this year. Probably wanted him for two years. They can't get everything they need in the draft.

Maybe they wanted a long time vet for all the youth they have at that position while providing someone who they felt had a couple years. He also probably hammers home the importance of blocking.
RE: RE: RE: We could have...  
Bill L : 9/17/2019 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14583450 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14583413 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 14583393 bw in dc said:


Quote:


invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.




The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.



Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...

Which contradicts your other point, since Eli wasn't stopping us from paying $5M to Cobb (or Beasley). They just didn't want to do it.
The Beckham trade looks better by the minute.  
Bill L : 9/17/2019 2:09 pm : link
He would have completely stifled Jones.
Would've loved to see Jones to Beckham.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/17/2019 2:14 pm : link
Instead, we get to see Peppers stink it up in the secondary every week.
I cannot comment  
mrvax : 9/17/2019 2:19 pm : link
on Golden Tate yet until I see him in a few games. The suspension sucks though.

Giants could have brought back Brittan Golden but chose not to.
OBJ will soon be injured  
chitt17 : 9/17/2019 2:20 pm : link
And/or will fighting with Mayfield.

Its just when!
RE: The Beckham trade looks better by the minute.  
ron mexico : 9/17/2019 2:20 pm : link
In comment 14583694 Bill L said:
Quote:
He would have completely stifled Jones.


Thats pretty insulting to Jones
RE: Eric  
Rong5611 : 9/17/2019 2:22 pm : link
Someone has to play WR, agree with this post. I don't think Tate was a bad signing.

I don't love Shepard, but again, someone needs to play WR.

These are guys who can move the chains. They need a guy to stretch the field and take the heat off of Engram. Coleman and Slayton were supposed to do that.

Slayton will play at some point, we will see if he's a player.

In comment 14583224 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
how is the Tate signing dumb? They signed him for 2 years with a team option in year 3. No guaranteed money past the second year. For a WR of his caliber, the cap number is relatively fine. He's a good receiver and security blanket to have while Jones gets up to speed.

What exactly is the issue, and why is it dumb?
RE: It seemed maximally dumb  
Section331 : 9/17/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14583095 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
the moment it was announced.


This. It never made sense. He's a nice player, but why sign a 31-yr old WR to a 4-year deal? One of any number of questionable moves by DG.
They have been showing how clueless this ownership  
micky : 9/17/2019 2:25 pm : link
And management has been in last several years.

There's really no set, organized, planning of this team. It seems like doing things on the fly, or, "reactionary"
RE: RE: The Beckham trade looks better by the minute.  
Bill L : 9/17/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14583732 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14583694 Bill L said:


Quote:


He would have completely stifled Jones.



Thats pretty insulting to Jones

It's completely accurate. He also would have stifled Engram, Shepard and, eventually, Barkley and Slayton. To the point where would have multiple entries into today's new world of players clamoring for escape.
RE: Why is it dumb?  
Section331 : 9/17/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14583290 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I'm not following.

I can think of much dumber moves the last six months:

Bethea
Keeping Eli
Peppers
Taney
Lauletta
Etc


Bethea doesn't cost anything, Eli was a sunk cost, and who really cares about Tanney or Lauletta? If either factored into this season at all, we were doomed. Tate's cap hit doesn't become manageable until after year 3. That is poor cap management for a good but not great player.

I'll give you Peppers, but at least he's young.
The concern for "stifling" DJ is funny  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 2:32 pm : link
with a head coach that is 15-36.
it was dumb because he's the same kind of WR as Shepard  
Greg from LI : 9/17/2019 2:34 pm : link
What they needed was a downfield guy. Instead, they got a second guy who's best in the slot.
It is the Odell trade that is looking dumber  
Vanzetti : 9/17/2019 2:34 pm : link
Letís be honest, Odell was basically let go for hinting that Eli was done

Yes, there was a history blah blah blah

But it was dissing Eli that triggered the trade
Agreed Eric  
Matt M. : 9/17/2019 2:50 pm : link
My initial reaction to Tate's explanation was to believe him because I didn't know he just had his second child. After hearing more of the details, I don't, for a second, believe his tale. Because of that and the fact that he said he informed the Giants, I believe either they knew the truth or they are inept. Either way, it was a bad signing made worse by the fact that the team sucks.
RE: RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/17/2019 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14583445 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 14583432 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.

Hereís the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. Whatís all this pride in not tanking?

The point is itís weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that arenít part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.

Itís even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didnít know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.



Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby.


The "I was trying to have a baby" thing is BS.
RE: RE: It seemed maximally dumb  
MM_in_NYC : 9/17/2019 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14583747 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14583095 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


the moment it was announced.



This. It never made sense. He's a nice player, but why sign a 31-yr old WR to a 4-year deal? One of any number of questionable moves by DG.


It was never a 4 year deal. It was always a 2yr/$22mil deal. It still didn't make sense, but it wasn't that bad.
RE: it was dumb because he's the same kind of WR as Shepard  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14583779 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
What they needed was a downfield guy. Instead, they got a second guy who's best in the slot.


Okay - fair enough. Then John Brown instead? Tyrell Williams?

There wasn't a big market this year with guys who could take the top off the defense.

At least Tate has demonstrated skills after the catch...
Which of the following receivers  
Bill2 : 9/17/2019 3:35 pm : link
Had the highest degree of separation from the defender at the time of the catch in 2018?

OBJ?

EE?

SS?

Tate?

Answer:

EE
SS
GT and OBJ tied

Point: It was not a mind boggling dumb move ( a the time) as compared to some others they have made.

All these decisions are not made after the facts bear out, they are made with a very unclear and risky future.

Like a dumb ass taking testosterone and thinking he could slide by the same testing that already caught others.



Problem is you traded away our #1 WR  
Bluesbreaker : 9/17/2019 3:51 pm : link
without a back up plan . So Tate was the only
guy out there to replace him with .
Jones is gonna make his first start without a legitimate
#1 and #2 WR and a slot WR with a concussion .
Danial Jones secure the football at all times .
Know when to hold them and know when to fold them
Oh and know when to slide don't get yourself
killed out there .
I agree with Eric ...  
Manny in CA : 9/17/2019 4:32 pm : link

Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.

On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).

If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.
RE: I agree with Eric ...  
Brown Recluse : 9/17/2019 4:40 pm : link
In comment 14584229 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.

On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).

If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.


It was a stop gap signing and not a bad one either. The suspension sucks but it is what it is.

This thread is ridiculous.
ALMOST evertything Gettleman had done  
Marty866b : 9/17/2019 4:41 pm : link
Is dumb. His trades mostly suck,his free agent signings suck, the jury is out on his drafting prowess. I'm tired of reading here how well Gettleman has drafted because his draft picks are playing. They're mostly playing because this team is awful. Besides Barkley who looks like they're going to be a really good player? We have picked #2 and #6 in the entire draft the last two years so we should have some good young players. Do we? The mishandling of the OBJ contract, the mishandling of Eli's contract are just incredibly awful. I didn't think Jerry Reese was any good but his body of work FAR surpasses Gettleman's!
RE: Well, the guy can draft  
santacruzom : 9/17/2019 4:43 pm : link
Well sure, every GM can draft. But does he draft good players that actually reach their assumed potential?
RE: .  
santacruzom : 9/17/2019 5:03 pm : link
In comment 14583409 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Well, you can't have talented rookies everywhere.


The jury's still out on whether or not we have talented rookies anywhere! I think it might be safe to say Jones qualifies though.
RE: My issue with the way Gettleman talks about culture  
santacruzom : 9/17/2019 5:06 pm : link
In comment 14583519 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:

This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.


Ooh... that's an interesting way to express it. I think you've worded what's wrong with management in my workplace better than I have.
Yes "managing" tech talent teaches you a lot about what  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 5:25 pm : link
that word really means in this new world. I put that in quotes because titles matter a lot less when your skills are such a valuable and marketable commodity.

I see a lot of parallels between star engineers and professional athletes. Both have talent representation and easily transferable skills.

Treating OBJ like he has no power is dumb. He does. Pro athletes have lots more power with the rise of big brands and social media. I don't think the Giants way accounts for this.

I'm not even saying that they should have kept OBJ. Some people put themselves before a team and that is inexcusable for success. But they could have managed it better and also been decisive and consistent.

I have no idea what Mara was thinking getting into a public war of words with OBJ. DG and the Giants don't seem to grasp the fact that if you handle things in a certain way it doesn't even matter if you are right, both sides will look bad

It extends to front office talent too. I don't know how anyone would look at the Giants organization right now and say I want to work for them vs. another place. It came up when people were talking about the various team github libraries. People that have new and different ideas do not want to swim upstream, they want to hop in a boat with people already moving with the current
NGD....so you want the organization and coaches to bend over  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 5:31 pm : link
backwards for the players. Not one winning organization in football has been built like that.
NGD....you are so full of shit. Nobody wants to play for us?  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 5:33 pm : link
Did you see how pissed off Dwayne Haskins was that we passed on him?
People here are waaaay overreacting to what is happening in a  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 5:33 pm : link
rebuilding year.
You don't pay big money for "stop-gaps" ...  
Manny in CA : 9/17/2019 5:44 pm : link

What you do is "lick your wounds" (from you mistakes like Stewart and Omameh), sign a bunch of JAGS (like he has) and live to see another day.

RE: NGD....you are so full of shit. Nobody wants to play for us?  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 5:53 pm : link
In comment 14584444 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Did you see how pissed off Dwayne Haskins was that we passed on him?


I think the New York market is alluring still which is why it would be nice if we could be less disastrous and capitalize on that.

Also the idea that we could manage talent better and nobody wanting to play for us are two different things.

If you notice I more talked about people not wanting to come in relation to front office talent. We talk up Abrams who has done exactly what? It would be nice to feel like we were doing something to attract new ideas and young talent there.

The idea that we aren't doing well attracting talent isn't outlandish based on the results, talk coming from the team and an examination of the qualifications of the people on our team. It's been beaten to death but only because the team continues to refuse to address the lack of talent infusion in creating a more modern organization.




Who hasn't wanted to come here that is considered front office talent?  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 5:58 pm : link
.
RE: RE: I agree with Eric ...  
christian : 9/17/2019 5:58 pm : link
In comment 14584259 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 14584229 Manny in CA said:


Quote:



Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.

On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).

If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.



It was a stop gap signing and not a bad one either. The suspension sucks but it is what it is.

This thread is ridiculous.


To me stop gap implies 1) there is talent on the other side of the gap 2) the resources employed are not consequential. Neither are true.

Thankfully the guarantees for his salary are voided by the PED suspension.

The suspension isn't what it is. It's because made and idiotic, collosal mistake.
In fact the Browns were so worried that John Dorsey would  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 5:59 pm : link
accept the Giants job that they hired him without finishing their interviews.
I have no idea if Tate will be good for us  
Bill2 : 9/17/2019 6:52 pm : link
And the suspension doesn't sit well.

But, while a deep threat was the goal behind the drafting of Slayton and the unfortunate season ending injury...the strategy behind Tate is obvious and hard to argue with ( in the short run, for he does have mileage):

Win the center middle of the field with SS and Tate and EE and Barkley via RPO offense.

Since LBs and slot corners and safeties with coverage skills are in short supply there are a lot of mismatches

Same strategy that BB and Brady have used to win several titles with relatively tough but not star receivers.

The choice to get him was reasonable. The results so far are on Tate
I disagree  
5BowlsSoon : 9/17/2019 7:07 pm : link
This has nothing to do with Tate. Iím sure he will be good.
RE: Who hasn't wanted to come here that is considered front office talent?  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14584498 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
.


Iíd turn the question around on you. What about our front office strikes you as us having talented people in it?
RE: RE: Who hasn't wanted to come here that is considered front office talent?  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14584644 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 14584498 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


.



Iíd turn the question around on you. What about our front office strikes you as us having talented people in it?


You are the one that made the statement that are stodgy ownership is shunning the top talent in football. That type of statement requires some type of evidence. Like I said before John Dorsey was interviewing for the GM job and took the Browns offer because it was there. The GM job of the Giants is considered way better than the Browns due to the flat structure they have in place with 5 decision makers. Louis Riddick was shitting on them before the season saying the structure they have in place is impossible to win. Billy B was another that has the same thoughts. Giants ownership generally stays out of football affairs unless it is the QB or someone that consider tarnishing the brand. That is way better than a lot of meddling owners.

DG took a Panther team that was in salary cap hell and cleaned that shit up. He had a record of 51-28 as GM. Under his stewardship they went to a superbowl. DG was only there 4 years, but he was GM of half the teams that the Panther sent to the playoffs in their history. If it weren't for him they still be vastly overpaying Josh Norman's ass. He drafted the two best running backs in football. He went up against ownership because they were getting sentimental and said fire me if I can't do my job.

RE: RE: RE: I agree with Eric ...  
Brown Recluse : 9/17/2019 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14584499 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14584259 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


In comment 14584229 Manny in CA said:


Quote:



Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.

On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).

If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.



It was a stop gap signing and not a bad one either. The suspension sucks but it is what it is.

This thread is ridiculous.



To me stop gap implies 1) there is talent on the other side of the gap 2) the resources employed are not consequential. Neither are true.

Thankfully the guarantees for his salary are voided by the PED suspension.

The suspension isn't what it is. It's because made and idiotic, collosal mistake.


A stopgap is simply a player who temporarily fills a hole until the long term solution is acquired. Thats it. Dont overthink and nitpick everything.
RE: The signing is fine...  
steve in ky : 9/17/2019 8:08 pm : link
In comment 14583140 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
His taking fertility drugs that are known testosterone boosters is the core dumb event...


+1
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