This isn't about trading Beckham. It'll get addressed next offseason when we have a lot more cap room to move around with....and there's always the draft.
Given how slowly we've started the last several years, I felt the first four games would be our most critical this year. Having him miss those has hurt badly.
If we knew about the pending suspension in advance, then it was a bad signing. If we didn't, then I'd say it was more just bad luck.
DG is trying to balance long term goals alongside fielding a competitive team in the immediate. I think the Tate signing was a way to accomplish the latter.
There's still an organizational mandate to put asses in seats and you have coaches jobs on the line -- the team needed to add an NFL caliber receiver after Odell.
It depends on how aware they were of the looming suspension.
If they knew and still signed him - it looks worse. On the surface, it didn't bug me much. We're pretty low on WR talent as it was. He's been a pretty reliable target and is good after the catch.
He's not a WR1 - but we didn't really pay him to be one.
A guy like Ogletree looks to be a significantly worse acquisition at this point.
too early to tell, I'm still optimistic he's enough of a difference maker - not only for his contributions but also for other the route runners benefit.
Hindsight? Maybe. It’s four games let’s see how he looks when he returns.
What’s dumb? Maybe allowing the Beckham situation to deteriorate to the point where the giants felt compelled to trade him before his value decreased. Maybe once again the giants out thought themselves.
I know for a fact that firing coughlin while keeping Reese and promoting mcadoo to HC was very dumb. The data doesn’t lie. Hiring shurmur? Time will tell but I shudder to think he’s got another full year after this one to prove how worthless he is as a HC. This just feels dumb, but time will tell..
trading up for Deandre Baker was dumb.
trading Beckham for mostly Lawrence + Peppers was dumb.
changing to a 3-4 and bringing in bettcher was dumb.
etc.
it's a small sample size so maybe just maybe we should see how things play out.
Tate is a good player and we aren't exactly hurting for cap room going forward so I'd like to see him, you know, play a game before saying he was a dumb signing. I'd certainly prefer to see him on the receiving end of passes from Jones as opposed to Fowler starting.
how is the Tate signing dumb? They signed him for 2 years with a team option in year 3. No guaranteed money past the second year. For a WR of his caliber, the cap number is relatively fine. He's a good receiver and security blanket to have while Jones gets up to speed.
DG is trying to balance long term goals alongside fielding a competitive team in the immediate. I think the Tate signing was a way to accomplish the latter.
There's still an organizational mandate to put asses in seats and you have coaches jobs on the line -- the team needed to add an NFL caliber receiver after Odell.
It's not just about fielding a competitive team. You also need *some* talent around a QB for him to succeed (see David Carr). Surrounding DJ with SS and a piss poor oline (i.e. no Solder/Zeitler/Remmers) would be setting him up for failure, even with Barkley in the backfield.
They of course didn't literally mean "no plan" but they just meant either "a bad plan" or "an inability to stick to his rebuild plan". I am heartened to see people realizing that a lot of moves are a lot less genius than they may have thought.
Either way, it's not all bad -- the Tate contract is really a 2 year, 22 mil, so we can get out of it easily after next year. And it will be good for Jones to have another NFL competent receiver, if only for his overall development.
Because he was suspended? They needed a legitimate WR on the roster after dumping OBJ. Maybe there were better alternatives, but I don't know anymore. I'm tired of this.
Because he was suspended? They needed a legitimate WR on the roster after dumping OBJ. Maybe there were better alternatives, but I don't know anymore. I'm tired of this.
Agreed. Eric, Don’t you think the offense could have looked respectable against the Bills if Tate and Shepard had played?
btw aren't we seeing now what we look like w/o Tate? Â
They have a pretty easy out after next season. Is the contract length really a big issue?
If the plan is to develop Jones, he's got to have some semblance of a WR group. Sending him out there with something akin to what we put out there last week would be a good way to set him up for failure.
The suspension killed this. I don't see anything wrong with the signing otherwise. It was really a 2 year deal from the start. The suspension may actually help them get out of the deal after this year if he really doesn't look good when he returns. He's a transition player and signing him didn't really stop the Giants from getting anyone else.
Well, you can't have talented rookies everywhere. I'm not sure how else we could have approached the WR group... they drafted Slayton and he hasn't been able to get on the field.
Shepard was extended and is only in his 4th season.
They can get out of Tate's contract after next season if they really need to.
There should be quite a bit of cap space next offseason if I'm not mistaken.
invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.
The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
The suspension is possibly the best thing that could of happened. Â
is the perfect guy for a rookie QB. He makes plays on the ball comes down with contested catches adds a lot on yac and is savy getting open quick. perfect go to guy for Jones. Not a true 1 but thats ok I think you add that piece last. After the QB has shown he is legit
There is a difference between tanking and going with Â
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Zeitler is one of the best OG's in the NFL, who might be the best pass pro OG in the NFL. Vernon, while a good player, was not playing to his contract. In no way was that trade dumb. A dominant OG is much harder to find than a 'decent' pass rusher.
RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with Â
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby. Meanwhile, other players are beating the shit out of women and getting 8 games. Which is the culture problem?
invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.
The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...
was that he's at his best in the slot. Shepard was signed to a multi-year deal, and HE'S at his best in the slot. I can't think of a good reason why this signing made sense from a team-building standpoint. We had a clear need at boundary receiver and we gave Tate the money. Obviously, someone like Tyrell Williams would've been a better move.
It's not just about fielding a competitive team. You also need *some* talent around a QB for him to succeed (see David Carr). Surrounding DJ with SS and a piss poor oline (i.e. no Solder/Zeitler/Remmers) would be setting him up for failure, even with Barkley in the backfield.
Yes, that too. They're 2 sides of the same coin. There's more to building, or even rebuilding, than 'having as much cap space as possible'
RE: RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with Â
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby. Meanwhile, other players are beating the shit out of women and getting 8 games. Which is the culture problem?
C'mon dude. He just had a baby. Do you think that it's truly believable that a man who had just had a child with his wife is worried about him being able to get his wife pregnant again? It was a good shot in the dark, but it looks like that was a clever appeal defense than it was being, you know, at all true.
I believe the Tate signing was more to placate the fans Â
Do the Giants win SB42 without the 2007 draft? Do they win SB 46 without JPP, Nicks, Cruz and Manningham? You do realize that Reese was an important part of the front office prior to succeeding Accorsi don't you??? Also, hero TC had a big voice in personal decisions. Then you have McAdoo and Reese, coming off an 11-5 season, high on Mahomes and looking to move on from Eli - Mara wouldn't allow it.
And after thinking about it more, i wish they had gone further and also signed Cobb. I like that they aren't pigeon holed to one position, keeps the defense on it toes. They are all capable of going down the field when needed.
He is extremely productive with YAC. Take a look at the last 5 years of receivers and look at YAC, you will be surprised. Tate, when combined with a QB that has good, timing, touch and accuracy will put a big numbers. If we had a QB that excelled at those traits we might have something. Oh wait.
To Follow up of the ~$37 mm, reported, they received ~$1.2 mm back already. and can recoup if they go another direction anonther $23mm after this year. I think that's how it break out. Something like that.
It was always really a 2 year contract, but the suspension made it an easy 1 yr exit.
My issue with the way Gettleman talks about culture Â
and seems to operate, or more largely how the Giants seem to operate looks like they do not understand at all how to incorporate modern org psych.
Lean startup I think is a great framework by which to think about success. And you have to ask, how well is your organization incubating new ideas? I don't think you look at the Giants and imagine they are very good at doing this or even thinking about it.
The very notion that Gettleman has some special insights into like bringing in "his guys" and that working is kind of antiquated. The fact of the matter is that talent is demanding a better quality of life in all industries and the best organizations empower people and allow more natural power structures and balances to form not enforce them in draconian ways. Reverence can certainly exist but it isn't demanded.
This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.
By luck it's less dumb then we may think. His guarentees are all voided because he was suspended. See the article below. They are free of any obligation to him , or practically free after this year. It's 7.9 mm less bad and potentially year 2-4 can be recouped entirely - ( New Window )
This is fantastic. Didn't know 2020 guarantees were voided.
trading up for Deandre Baker was dumb.
trading Beckham for mostly Lawrence + Peppers was dumb.
changing to a 3-4 and bringing in bettcher was dumb.
etc.
it's a small sample size so maybe just maybe we should see how things play out.
Tate is a good player and we aren't exactly hurting for cap room going forward so I'd like to see him, you know, play a game before saying he was a dumb signing. I'd certainly prefer to see him on the receiving end of passes from Jones as opposed to Fowler starting.
paying Eli 15m? and then bench him was dumb...dumb is a virtue of this organization. He should have been released last year.
They wanted to give Eli a proven Vet for this year. Probably wanted him for two years. They can't get everything they need in the draft.
Maybe they wanted a long time vet for all the youth they have at that position while providing someone who they felt had a couple years. He also probably hammers home the importance of blocking.
invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.
The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...
Which contradicts your other point, since Eli wasn't stopping us from paying $5M to Cobb (or Beasley). They just didn't want to do it.
Someone has to play WR, agree with this post. I don't think Tate was a bad signing.
I don't love Shepard, but again, someone needs to play WR.
These are guys who can move the chains. They need a guy to stretch the field and take the heat off of Engram. Coleman and Slayton were supposed to do that.
Slayton will play at some point, we will see if he's a player.
how is the Tate signing dumb? They signed him for 2 years with a team option in year 3. No guaranteed money past the second year. For a WR of his caliber, the cap number is relatively fine. He's a good receiver and security blanket to have while Jones gets up to speed.
It's completely accurate. He also would have stifled Engram, Shepard and, eventually, Barkley and Slayton. To the point where would have multiple entries into today's new world of players clamoring for escape.
I can think of much dumber moves the last six months:
Bethea
Keeping Eli
Peppers
Taney
Lauletta
Etc
Bethea doesn't cost anything, Eli was a sunk cost, and who really cares about Tanney or Lauletta? If either factored into this season at all, we were doomed. Tate's cap hit doesn't become manageable until after year 3. That is poor cap management for a good but not great player.
My initial reaction to Tate's explanation was to believe him because I didn't know he just had his second child. After hearing more of the details, I don't, for a second, believe his tale. Because of that and the fact that he said he informed the Giants, I believe either they knew the truth or they are inept. Either way, it was a bad signing made worse by the fact that the team sucks.
RE: RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with Â
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby.
without a back up plan . So Tate was the only
guy out there to replace him with .
Jones is gonna make his first start without a legitimate
#1 and #2 WR and a slot WR with a concussion .
Danial Jones secure the football at all times .
Know when to hold them and know when to fold them
Oh and know when to slide don't get yourself
killed out there .
Is dumb. His trades mostly suck,his free agent signings suck, the jury is out on his drafting prowess. I'm tired of reading here how well Gettleman has drafted because his draft picks are playing. They're mostly playing because this team is awful. Besides Barkley who looks like they're going to be a really good player? We have picked #2 and #6 in the entire draft the last two years so we should have some good young players. Do we? The mishandling of the OBJ contract, the mishandling of Eli's contract are just incredibly awful. I didn't think Jerry Reese was any good but his body of work FAR surpasses Gettleman's!
This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.
Ooh... that's an interesting way to express it. I think you've worded what's wrong with management in my workplace better than I have.
Yes "managing" tech talent teaches you a lot about what Â
that word really means in this new world. I put that in quotes because titles matter a lot less when your skills are such a valuable and marketable commodity.
I see a lot of parallels between star engineers and professional athletes. Both have talent representation and easily transferable skills.
Treating OBJ like he has no power is dumb. He does. Pro athletes have lots more power with the rise of big brands and social media. I don't think the Giants way accounts for this.
I'm not even saying that they should have kept OBJ. Some people put themselves before a team and that is inexcusable for success. But they could have managed it better and also been decisive and consistent.
I have no idea what Mara was thinking getting into a public war of words with OBJ. DG and the Giants don't seem to grasp the fact that if you handle things in a certain way it doesn't even matter if you are right, both sides will look bad
It extends to front office talent too. I don't know how anyone would look at the Giants organization right now and say I want to work for them vs. another place. It came up when people were talking about the various team github libraries. People that have new and different ideas do not want to swim upstream, they want to hop in a boat with people already moving with the current
NGD....so you want the organization and coaches to bend over Â
Did you see how pissed off Dwayne Haskins was that we passed on him?
I think the New York market is alluring still which is why it would be nice if we could be less disastrous and capitalize on that.
Also the idea that we could manage talent better and nobody wanting to play for us are two different things.
If you notice I more talked about people not wanting to come in relation to front office talent. We talk up Abrams who has done exactly what? It would be nice to feel like we were doing something to attract new ideas and young talent there.
The idea that we aren't doing well attracting talent isn't outlandish based on the results, talk coming from the team and an examination of the qualifications of the people on our team. It's been beaten to death but only because the team continues to refuse to address the lack of talent infusion in creating a more modern organization.
Who hasn't wanted to come here that is considered front office talent? Â
But, while a deep threat was the goal behind the drafting of Slayton and the unfortunate season ending injury...the strategy behind Tate is obvious and hard to argue with ( in the short run, for he does have mileage):
Win the center middle of the field with SS and Tate and EE and Barkley via RPO offense.
Since LBs and slot corners and safeties with coverage skills are in short supply there are a lot of mismatches
Same strategy that BB and Brady have used to win several titles with relatively tough but not star receivers.
The choice to get him was reasonable. The results so far are on Tate
I’d turn the question around on you. What about our front office strikes you as us having talented people in it?
You are the one that made the statement that are stodgy ownership is shunning the top talent in football. That type of statement requires some type of evidence. Like I said before John Dorsey was interviewing for the GM job and took the Browns offer because it was there. The GM job of the Giants is considered way better than the Browns due to the flat structure they have in place with 5 decision makers. Louis Riddick was shitting on them before the season saying the structure they have in place is impossible to win. Billy B was another that has the same thoughts. Giants ownership generally stays out of football affairs unless it is the QB or someone that consider tarnishing the brand. That is way better than a lot of meddling owners.
DG took a Panther team that was in salary cap hell and cleaned that shit up. He had a record of 51-28 as GM. Under his stewardship they went to a superbowl. DG was only there 4 years, but he was GM of half the teams that the Panther sent to the playoffs in their history. If it weren't for him they still be vastly overpaying Josh Norman's ass. He drafted the two best running backs in football. He went up against ownership because they were getting sentimental and said fire me if I can't do my job.
This isn't about trading Beckham. It'll get addressed next offseason when we have a lot more cap room to move around with....and there's always the draft.
I mean, other than Tom Brady who's going to excel with a bunch of nobodies at WR.
With all three of them we are OK. Without all three healthy, it's ugly.
If they didn't sign him, then Jones wold end up in the same situation...no NFL-caliber WRs.
Assuming that it was Tate or no one.
But, dang, Cole Beasley did look pretty good, didn't he?
Yeah, and frankly the primary reason I am still backing him is specifically because of his current draft record.
Zeitler for OV is at least defensible
Zeitler for OV is at least defensible
Eli Apple trade is a win.
There's no getting around it.
If we knew about the pending suspension in advance, then it was a bad signing. If we didn't, then I'd say it was more just bad luck.
Especially when trying to use the excuse that he was having trouble getting his wife pregnant when he just had two kids in less then 18 months.
There's still an organizational mandate to put asses in seats and you have coaches jobs on the line -- the team needed to add an NFL caliber receiver after Odell.
They most likely knew before the draft though.
If they knew and still signed him - it looks worse. On the surface, it didn't bug me much. We're pretty low on WR talent as it was. He's been a pretty reliable target and is good after the catch.
He's not a WR1 - but we didn't really pay him to be one.
A guy like Ogletree looks to be a significantly worse acquisition at this point.
What’s dumb? Maybe allowing the Beckham situation to deteriorate to the point where the giants felt compelled to trade him before his value decreased. Maybe once again the giants out thought themselves.
I know for a fact that firing coughlin while keeping Reese and promoting mcadoo to HC was very dumb. The data doesn’t lie. Hiring shurmur? Time will tell but I shudder to think he’s got another full year after this one to prove how worthless he is as a HC. This just feels dumb, but time will tell..
trading Beckham for mostly Lawrence + Peppers was dumb.
changing to a 3-4 and bringing in bettcher was dumb.
etc.
it's a small sample size so maybe just maybe we should see how things play out.
Tate is a good player and we aren't exactly hurting for cap room going forward so I'd like to see him, you know, play a game before saying he was a dumb signing. I'd certainly prefer to see him on the receiving end of passes from Jones as opposed to Fowler starting.
What exactly is the issue, and why is it dumb?
There's still an organizational mandate to put asses in seats and you have coaches jobs on the line -- the team needed to add an NFL caliber receiver after Odell.
It's not just about fielding a competitive team. You also need *some* talent around a QB for him to succeed (see David Carr). Surrounding DJ with SS and a piss poor oline (i.e. no Solder/Zeitler/Remmers) would be setting him up for failure, even with Barkley in the backfield.
Either way, it's not all bad -- the Tate contract is really a 2 year, 22 mil, so we can get out of it easily after next year. And it will be good for Jones to have another NFL competent receiver, if only for his overall development.
He hasn't done great in FA, but let's remember he drafted at 2 and at 6. Who has he hit on in the later rounds?
Agreed. Eric, Don’t you think the offense could have looked respectable against the Bills if Tate and Shepard had played?
I can think of much dumber moves the last six months:
Bethea
Keeping Eli
Peppers
Taney
Lauletta
Etc
I can think of much dumber moves the last six months:
Bethea
Keeping Eli
Peppers
Taney
Lauletta
Etc
Bethea is unbelievable. I can't imagine he just dropped off the cliff out of nowhere. Some of this had to be on film last year.
If the plan is to develop Jones, he's got to have some semblance of a WR group. Sending him out there with something akin to what we put out there last week would be a good way to set him up for failure.
I agree here. Who did we want instead? Chris Hogan? Tyrell Williams? Randell Cobb? Brown? Beasley?
It's not about tanking. It's about going with youth and clearing cap space. Tate is not the future.
Shepard was extended and is only in his 4th season.
They can get out of Tate's contract after next season if they really need to.
There should be quite a bit of cap space next offseason if I'm not mistaken.
The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Zeitler for OV is at least defensible
Zeitler is one of the best OG's in the NFL, who might be the best pass pro OG in the NFL. Vernon, while a good player, was not playing to his contract. In no way was that trade dumb. A dominant OG is much harder to find than a 'decent' pass rusher.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby. Meanwhile, other players are beating the shit out of women and getting 8 games. Which is the culture problem?
Quote:
invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.
The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...
It's not just about fielding a competitive team. You also need *some* talent around a QB for him to succeed (see David Carr). Surrounding DJ with SS and a piss poor oline (i.e. no Solder/Zeitler/Remmers) would be setting him up for failure, even with Barkley in the backfield.
Yes, that too. They're 2 sides of the same coin. There's more to building, or even rebuilding, than 'having as much cap space as possible'
Quote:
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby. Meanwhile, other players are beating the shit out of women and getting 8 games. Which is the culture problem?
C'mon dude. He just had a baby. Do you think that it's truly believable that a man who had just had a child with his wife is worried about him being able to get his wife pregnant again? It was a good shot in the dark, but it looks like that was a clever appeal defense than it was being, you know, at all true.
It's 7.9 mm less bad and potentially year 2-4 can be recouped entirely - ( New Window )
It was always really a 2 year contract, but the suspension made it an easy 1 yr exit.
Lean startup I think is a great framework by which to think about success. And you have to ask, how well is your organization incubating new ideas? I don't think you look at the Giants and imagine they are very good at doing this or even thinking about it.
The very notion that Gettleman has some special insights into like bringing in "his guys" and that working is kind of antiquated. The fact of the matter is that talent is demanding a better quality of life in all industries and the best organizations empower people and allow more natural power structures and balances to form not enforce them in draconian ways. Reverence can certainly exist but it isn't demanded.
This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.
Re-inforce the line.
Become a run first team with Saquon (I expect his carries to go up once they start converting 3rd downs).
Get rid of a me-first WR and replace him with a professional.
This is fantastic. Didn't know 2020 guarantees were voided.
trading Beckham for mostly Lawrence + Peppers was dumb.
changing to a 3-4 and bringing in bettcher was dumb.
etc.
it's a small sample size so maybe just maybe we should see how things play out.
Tate is a good player and we aren't exactly hurting for cap room going forward so I'd like to see him, you know, play a game before saying he was a dumb signing. I'd certainly prefer to see him on the receiving end of passes from Jones as opposed to Fowler starting.
paying Eli 15m? and then bench him was dumb...dumb is a virtue of this organization. He should have been released last year.
I think that is pretty clear.
Maybe they wanted a long time vet for all the youth they have at that position while providing someone who they felt had a couple years. He also probably hammers home the importance of blocking.
Quote:
In comment 14583393 bw in dc said:
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invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.
The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...
Which contradicts your other point, since Eli wasn't stopping us from paying $5M to Cobb (or Beasley). They just didn't want to do it.
Giants could have brought back Brittan Golden but chose not to.
Its just when!
Thats pretty insulting to Jones
I don't love Shepard, but again, someone needs to play WR.
These are guys who can move the chains. They need a guy to stretch the field and take the heat off of Engram. Coleman and Slayton were supposed to do that.
Slayton will play at some point, we will see if he's a player.
In comment 14583224 ryanmkeane said:
What exactly is the issue, and why is it dumb?
This. It never made sense. He's a nice player, but why sign a 31-yr old WR to a 4-year deal? One of any number of questionable moves by DG.
There's really no set, organized, planning of this team. It seems like doing things on the fly, or, "reactionary"
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He would have completely stifled Jones.
Thats pretty insulting to Jones
It's completely accurate. He also would have stifled Engram, Shepard and, eventually, Barkley and Slayton. To the point where would have multiple entries into today's new world of players clamoring for escape.
I can think of much dumber moves the last six months:
Bethea
Keeping Eli
Peppers
Taney
Lauletta
Etc
Bethea doesn't cost anything, Eli was a sunk cost, and who really cares about Tanney or Lauletta? If either factored into this season at all, we were doomed. Tate's cap hit doesn't become manageable until after year 3. That is poor cap management for a good but not great player.
I'll give you Peppers, but at least he's young.
Yes, there was a history blah blah blah
But it was dissing Eli that triggered the trade
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youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.
Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?
The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.
It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby.
The "I was trying to have a baby" thing is BS.
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the moment it was announced.
This. It never made sense. He's a nice player, but why sign a 31-yr old WR to a 4-year deal? One of any number of questionable moves by DG.
It was never a 4 year deal. It was always a 2yr/$22mil deal. It still didn't make sense, but it wasn't that bad.
Okay - fair enough. Then John Brown instead? Tyrell Williams?
There wasn't a big market this year with guys who could take the top off the defense.
At least Tate has demonstrated skills after the catch...
OBJ?
EE?
SS?
Tate?
Answer:
EE
SS
GT and OBJ tied
Point: It was not a mind boggling dumb move ( a the time) as compared to some others they have made.
All these decisions are not made after the facts bear out, they are made with a very unclear and risky future.
Like a dumb ass taking testosterone and thinking he could slide by the same testing that already caught others.
guy out there to replace him with .
Jones is gonna make his first start without a legitimate
#1 and #2 WR and a slot WR with a concussion .
Danial Jones secure the football at all times .
Know when to hold them and know when to fold them
Oh and know when to slide don't get yourself
killed out there .
Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.
On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).
If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.
Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.
On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).
If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.
It was a stop gap signing and not a bad one either. The suspension sucks but it is what it is.
This thread is ridiculous.
The jury's still out on whether or not we have talented rookies anywhere! I think it might be safe to say Jones qualifies though.
This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.
Ooh... that's an interesting way to express it. I think you've worded what's wrong with management in my workplace better than I have.
I see a lot of parallels between star engineers and professional athletes. Both have talent representation and easily transferable skills.
Treating OBJ like he has no power is dumb. He does. Pro athletes have lots more power with the rise of big brands and social media. I don't think the Giants way accounts for this.
I'm not even saying that they should have kept OBJ. Some people put themselves before a team and that is inexcusable for success. But they could have managed it better and also been decisive and consistent.
I have no idea what Mara was thinking getting into a public war of words with OBJ. DG and the Giants don't seem to grasp the fact that if you handle things in a certain way it doesn't even matter if you are right, both sides will look bad
It extends to front office talent too. I don't know how anyone would look at the Giants organization right now and say I want to work for them vs. another place. It came up when people were talking about the various team github libraries. People that have new and different ideas do not want to swim upstream, they want to hop in a boat with people already moving with the current
What you do is "lick your wounds" (from you mistakes like Stewart and Omameh), sign a bunch of JAGS (like he has) and live to see another day.
I think the New York market is alluring still which is why it would be nice if we could be less disastrous and capitalize on that.
Also the idea that we could manage talent better and nobody wanting to play for us are two different things.
If you notice I more talked about people not wanting to come in relation to front office talent. We talk up Abrams who has done exactly what? It would be nice to feel like we were doing something to attract new ideas and young talent there.
The idea that we aren't doing well attracting talent isn't outlandish based on the results, talk coming from the team and an examination of the qualifications of the people on our team. It's been beaten to death but only because the team continues to refuse to address the lack of talent infusion in creating a more modern organization.
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Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.
On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).
If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.
It was a stop gap signing and not a bad one either. The suspension sucks but it is what it is.
This thread is ridiculous.
To me stop gap implies 1) there is talent on the other side of the gap 2) the resources employed are not consequential. Neither are true.
Thankfully the guarantees for his salary are voided by the PED suspension.
The suspension isn't what it is. It's because made and idiotic, collosal mistake.
But, while a deep threat was the goal behind the drafting of Slayton and the unfortunate season ending injury...the strategy behind Tate is obvious and hard to argue with ( in the short run, for he does have mileage):
Win the center middle of the field with SS and Tate and EE and Barkley via RPO offense.
Since LBs and slot corners and safeties with coverage skills are in short supply there are a lot of mismatches
Same strategy that BB and Brady have used to win several titles with relatively tough but not star receivers.
The choice to get him was reasonable. The results so far are on Tate
I’d turn the question around on you. What about our front office strikes you as us having talented people in it?
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I’d turn the question around on you. What about our front office strikes you as us having talented people in it?
You are the one that made the statement that are stodgy ownership is shunning the top talent in football. That type of statement requires some type of evidence. Like I said before John Dorsey was interviewing for the GM job and took the Browns offer because it was there. The GM job of the Giants is considered way better than the Browns due to the flat structure they have in place with 5 decision makers. Louis Riddick was shitting on them before the season saying the structure they have in place is impossible to win. Billy B was another that has the same thoughts. Giants ownership generally stays out of football affairs unless it is the QB or someone that consider tarnishing the brand. That is way better than a lot of meddling owners.
DG took a Panther team that was in salary cap hell and cleaned that shit up. He had a record of 51-28 as GM. Under his stewardship they went to a superbowl. DG was only there 4 years, but he was GM of half the teams that the Panther sent to the playoffs in their history. If it weren't for him they still be vastly overpaying Josh Norman's ass. He drafted the two best running backs in football. He went up against ownership because they were getting sentimental and said fire me if I can't do my job.
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In comment 14584229 Manny in CA said:
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Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.
On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).
If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.
It was a stop gap signing and not a bad one either. The suspension sucks but it is what it is.
This thread is ridiculous.
To me stop gap implies 1) there is talent on the other side of the gap 2) the resources employed are not consequential. Neither are true.
Thankfully the guarantees for his salary are voided by the PED suspension.
The suspension isn't what it is. It's because made and idiotic, collosal mistake.
A stopgap is simply a player who temporarily fills a hole until the long term solution is acquired. Thats it. Dont overthink and nitpick everything.
+1