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That Golden Tate signing is looking dumber by the minute

Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/17/2019 12:08 pm
Sorry for all of these threads, but I lot of thoughts percolating in the old noggin.
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Eh  
bronxct1 : 9/17/2019 12:54 pm : link
The suspension killed this. I don't see anything wrong with the signing otherwise. It was really a 2 year deal from the start. The suspension may actually help them get out of the deal after this year if he really doesn't look good when he returns. He's a transition player and signing him didn't really stop the Giants from getting anyone else.
We could have...  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 12:57 pm : link
invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.

RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/17/2019 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14583246 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
do you mean it's dumb because the Giants should just tank and be awful and have zero talent on offense?


It's not about tanking. It's about going with youth and clearing cap space. Tate is not the future.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/17/2019 1:01 pm : link
Well, you can't have talented rookies everywhere. I'm not sure how else we could have approached the WR group... they drafted Slayton and he hasn't been able to get on the field.

Shepard was extended and is only in his 4th season.

They can get out of Tate's contract after next season if they really need to.

There should be quite a bit of cap space next offseason if I'm not mistaken.
RE: We could have...  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14583393 bw in dc said:
Quote:
invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.


The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.
The suspension is possibly the best thing that could of happened.  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 1:03 pm : link
He'll play most the year with Jones and next year the draft is WR rich. We take someone we like he may be gone.
Think Tate  
Dankbeerman : 9/17/2019 1:06 pm : link
is the perfect guy for a rookie QB. He makes plays on the ball comes down with contested catches adds a lot on yac and is savy getting open quick. perfect go to guy for Jones. Not a true 1 but thats ok I think you add that piece last. After the QB has shown he is legit
There is a difference between tanking and going with  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 1:06 pm : link
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.

Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?

The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.

It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.
RE: Every FA signing / trade  
allstarjim : 9/17/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14583141 adambear said:
Quote:
the past 2 seasons has been bad.

Zeitler for OV is at least defensible


Zeitler is one of the best OG's in the NFL, who might be the best pass pro OG in the NFL. Vernon, while a good player, was not playing to his contract. In no way was that trade dumb. A dominant OG is much harder to find than a 'decent' pass rusher.
RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/17/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14583432 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.

Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?

The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.

It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.


Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby. Meanwhile, other players are beating the shit out of women and getting 8 games. Which is the culture problem?
RE: RE: We could have...  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14583413 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14583393 bw in dc said:


Quote:


invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.




The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.


Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...
The thing that struck me about Tate  
allstarjim : 9/17/2019 1:11 pm : link
was that he's at his best in the slot. Shepard was signed to a multi-year deal, and HE'S at his best in the slot. I can't think of a good reason why this signing made sense from a team-building standpoint. We had a clear need at boundary receiver and we gave Tate the money. Obviously, someone like Tyrell Williams would've been a better move.
RE: RE: I think  
Giantophile : 9/17/2019 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14583234 giants#1 said:

Quote:


It's not just about fielding a competitive team. You also need *some* talent around a QB for him to succeed (see David Carr). Surrounding DJ with SS and a piss poor oline (i.e. no Solder/Zeitler/Remmers) would be setting him up for failure, even with Barkley in the backfield.


Yes, that too. They're 2 sides of the same coin. There's more to building, or even rebuilding, than 'having as much cap space as possible'
RE: RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with  
allstarjim : 9/17/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14583445 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 14583432 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.

Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?

The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.

It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.



Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby. Meanwhile, other players are beating the shit out of women and getting 8 games. Which is the culture problem?


C'mon dude. He just had a baby. Do you think that it's truly believable that a man who had just had a child with his wife is worried about him being able to get his wife pregnant again? It was a good shot in the dark, but it looks like that was a clever appeal defense than it was being, you know, at all true.
I believe the Tate signing was more to placate the fans  
Canton : 9/17/2019 1:15 pm : link
after losing OBJ, then anything else.
ah..so Tate is a liar  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/17/2019 1:17 pm : link
got it.
Worse GM than Reese???  
RollBlue : 9/17/2019 1:21 pm : link
Do the Giants win SB42 without the 2007 draft? Do they win SB 46 without JPP, Nicks, Cruz and Manningham? You do realize that Reese was an important part of the front office prior to succeeding Accorsi don't you??? Also, hero TC had a big voice in personal decisions. Then you have McAdoo and Reese, coming off an 11-5 season, high on Mahomes and looking to move on from Eli - Mara wouldn't allow it.
Eric  
DavidinBMNY : 9/17/2019 1:21 pm : link
By luck it's less dumb then we may think. His guarentees are all voided because he was suspended. See the article below. They are free of any obligation to him , or practically free after this year.
It's 7.9 mm less bad and potentially year 2-4 can be recouped entirely - ( New Window )
I didn't like it at first, but grew to like it.  
rasbutant : 9/17/2019 1:23 pm : link
And after thinking about it more, i wish they had gone further and also signed Cobb. I like that they aren't pigeon holed to one position, keeps the defense on it toes. They are all capable of going down the field when needed.
Tate signing OK  
Thegratefulhead : 9/17/2019 1:24 pm : link
He is extremely productive with YAC. Take a look at the last 5 years of receivers and look at YAC, you will be surprised. Tate, when combined with a QB that has good, timing, touch and accuracy will put a big numbers. If we had a QB that excelled at those traits we might have something. Oh wait.
Eric  
DavidinBMNY : 9/17/2019 1:28 pm : link
To Follow up of the ~$37 mm, reported, they received ~$1.2 mm back already. and can recoup if they go another direction anonther $23mm after this year. I think that's how it break out. Something like that.

It was always really a 2 year contract, but the suspension made it an easy 1 yr exit.
My issue with the way Gettleman talks about culture  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 1:29 pm : link
and seems to operate, or more largely how the Giants seem to operate looks like they do not understand at all how to incorporate modern org psych.

Lean startup I think is a great framework by which to think about success. And you have to ask, how well is your organization incubating new ideas? I don't think you look at the Giants and imagine they are very good at doing this or even thinking about it.

The very notion that Gettleman has some special insights into like bringing in "his guys" and that working is kind of antiquated. The fact of the matter is that talent is demanding a better quality of life in all industries and the best organizations empower people and allow more natural power structures and balances to form not enforce them in draconian ways. Reverence can certainly exist but it isn't demanded.

This idea that so many Giants were malcontents probably has a lot more to do with Giants leadership demanding an unearned reverence while losing than anything else.
Suspension is unfortunate  
SLIM_ : 9/17/2019 1:30 pm : link
but I think that the Giants have done everything in their power to make it comfortable for a young QB with the resources that they had available...

Re-inforce the line.

Become a run first team with Saquon (I expect his carries to go up once they start converting 3rd downs).

Get rid of a me-first WR and replace him with a professional.

RE: Eric  
MM_in_NYC : 9/17/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14583481 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
By luck it's less dumb then we may think. His guarentees are all voided because he was suspended. See the article below. They are free of any obligation to him , or practically free after this year. It's 7.9 mm less bad and potentially year 2-4 can be recouped entirely - ( New Window )


This is fantastic. Didn't know 2020 guarantees were voided.
RE: Anything can look dumb when you are 0-2  
mdc1 : 9/17/2019 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14583220 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
trading up for Deandre Baker was dumb.
trading Beckham for mostly Lawrence + Peppers was dumb.
changing to a 3-4 and bringing in bettcher was dumb.
etc.

it's a small sample size so maybe just maybe we should see how things play out.

Tate is a good player and we aren't exactly hurting for cap room going forward so I'd like to see him, you know, play a game before saying he was a dumb signing. I'd certainly prefer to see him on the receiving end of passes from Jones as opposed to Fowler starting.


paying Eli 15m? and then bench him was dumb...dumb is a virtue of this organization. He should have been released last year.
RE: ah..so Tate is a liar  
Chris in Philly : 9/17/2019 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14583473 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
got it.


I think that is pretty clear.
What's amazing to me is how much better Cody Core and TJ Jones  
loafin : 9/17/2019 1:43 pm : link
look than Fowler, Latimer and R. Shepard! That is some set of awful receivers we have.
Eric,  
GeofromNJ : 9/17/2019 2:04 pm : link
Is this your way of saying, by extension, that the Beckham trade looks dumber by the minute? Not saying such a thought would be wrong. Just wondering.
Disagree Eric  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/17/2019 2:07 pm : link
They wanted to give Eli a proven Vet for this year. Probably wanted him for two years. They can't get everything they need in the draft.

Maybe they wanted a long time vet for all the youth they have at that position while providing someone who they felt had a couple years. He also probably hammers home the importance of blocking.
RE: RE: RE: We could have...  
Bill L : 9/17/2019 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14583450 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14583413 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 14583393 bw in dc said:


Quote:


invested some more money in receivers if we didn't keep Eli.




The net savings of getting rid of Eli after the draft would be around 8-9 million if we signed Fitz. Not much more to work with. I think Tate, Shephard are enough, hard to foresee them missing games at the same time for guys that have been healthy. Tate has missed like two games in his career.



Cobb signed a 1 yr deal with Dallas for $5M. And he's off to a nice start...

Which contradicts your other point, since Eli wasn't stopping us from paying $5M to Cobb (or Beasley). They just didn't want to do it.
The Beckham trade looks better by the minute.  
Bill L : 9/17/2019 2:09 pm : link
He would have completely stifled Jones.
Would've loved to see Jones to Beckham.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/17/2019 2:14 pm : link
Instead, we get to see Peppers stink it up in the secondary every week.
I cannot comment  
mrvax : 9/17/2019 2:19 pm : link
on Golden Tate yet until I see him in a few games. The suspension sucks though.

Giants could have brought back Brittan Golden but chose not to.
OBJ will soon be injured  
chitt17 : 9/17/2019 2:20 pm : link
And/or will fighting with Mayfield.

Its just when!
RE: The Beckham trade looks better by the minute.  
ron mexico : 9/17/2019 2:20 pm : link
In comment 14583694 Bill L said:
Quote:
He would have completely stifled Jones.


Thats pretty insulting to Jones
RE: Eric  
Rong5611 : 9/17/2019 2:22 pm : link
Someone has to play WR, agree with this post. I don't think Tate was a bad signing.

I don't love Shepard, but again, someone needs to play WR.

These are guys who can move the chains. They need a guy to stretch the field and take the heat off of Engram. Coleman and Slayton were supposed to do that.

Slayton will play at some point, we will see if he's a player.

In comment 14583224 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
how is the Tate signing dumb? They signed him for 2 years with a team option in year 3. No guaranteed money past the second year. For a WR of his caliber, the cap number is relatively fine. He's a good receiver and security blanket to have while Jones gets up to speed.

What exactly is the issue, and why is it dumb?
RE: It seemed maximally dumb  
Section331 : 9/17/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14583095 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
the moment it was announced.


This. It never made sense. He's a nice player, but why sign a 31-yr old WR to a 4-year deal? One of any number of questionable moves by DG.
They have been showing how clueless this ownership  
micky : 9/17/2019 2:25 pm : link
And management has been in last several years.

There's really no set, organized, planning of this team. It seems like doing things on the fly, or, "reactionary"
RE: RE: The Beckham trade looks better by the minute.  
Bill L : 9/17/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14583732 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14583694 Bill L said:


Quote:


He would have completely stifled Jones.



Thats pretty insulting to Jones

It's completely accurate. He also would have stifled Engram, Shepard and, eventually, Barkley and Slayton. To the point where would have multiple entries into today's new world of players clamoring for escape.
RE: Why is it dumb?  
Section331 : 9/17/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14583290 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I'm not following.

I can think of much dumber moves the last six months:

Bethea
Keeping Eli
Peppers
Taney
Lauletta
Etc


Bethea doesn't cost anything, Eli was a sunk cost, and who really cares about Tanney or Lauletta? If either factored into this season at all, we were doomed. Tate's cap hit doesn't become manageable until after year 3. That is poor cap management for a good but not great player.

I'll give you Peppers, but at least he's young.
The concern for "stifling" DJ is funny  
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2019 2:32 pm : link
with a head coach that is 15-36.
it was dumb because he's the same kind of WR as Shepard  
Greg from LI : 9/17/2019 2:34 pm : link
What they needed was a downfield guy. Instead, they got a second guy who's best in the slot.
It is the Odell trade that is looking dumber  
Vanzetti : 9/17/2019 2:34 pm : link
Let’s be honest, Odell was basically let go for hinting that Eli was done

Yes, there was a history blah blah blah

But it was dissing Eli that triggered the trade
Agreed Eric  
Matt M. : 9/17/2019 2:50 pm : link
My initial reaction to Tate's explanation was to believe him because I didn't know he just had his second child. After hearing more of the details, I don't, for a second, believe his tale. Because of that and the fact that he said he informed the Giants, I believe either they knew the truth or they are inept. Either way, it was a bad signing made worse by the fact that the team sucks.
RE: RE: There is a difference between tanking and going with  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/17/2019 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14583445 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 14583432 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


youth and taking a chance on players with upside. You knew what Tate is and will only get worse.

Here’s the issue with this whole do you just want to tank. We let go of a lot of our premium talent and had 17.5% of our cap tied up in dead money, we effectively tanked. What’s all this pride in not tanking?

The point is it’s weird to tank and then also bring in veterans that aren’t part of the future, especially when they cost as much as Tate did.

It’s even weirder when you preach culture and then that player gets suspended. Sure, say you didn’t know all you want but not when you are presenting yourself like some kind of culture alchemist.



Is it really culture? The guy got suspended 4 games for taking a drug that helped him have a baby.


The "I was trying to have a baby" thing is BS.
RE: RE: It seemed maximally dumb  
MM_in_NYC : 9/17/2019 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14583747 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14583095 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


the moment it was announced.



This. It never made sense. He's a nice player, but why sign a 31-yr old WR to a 4-year deal? One of any number of questionable moves by DG.


It was never a 4 year deal. It was always a 2yr/$22mil deal. It still didn't make sense, but it wasn't that bad.
RE: it was dumb because he's the same kind of WR as Shepard  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14583779 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
What they needed was a downfield guy. Instead, they got a second guy who's best in the slot.


Okay - fair enough. Then John Brown instead? Tyrell Williams?

There wasn't a big market this year with guys who could take the top off the defense.

At least Tate has demonstrated skills after the catch...
Which of the following receivers  
Bill2 : 9/17/2019 3:35 pm : link
Had the highest degree of separation from the defender at the time of the catch in 2018?

OBJ?

EE?

SS?

Tate?

Answer:

EE
SS
GT and OBJ tied

Point: It was not a mind boggling dumb move ( a the time) as compared to some others they have made.

All these decisions are not made after the facts bear out, they are made with a very unclear and risky future.

Like a dumb ass taking testosterone and thinking he could slide by the same testing that already caught others.



Problem is you traded away our #1 WR  
Bluesbreaker : 9/17/2019 3:51 pm : link
without a back up plan . So Tate was the only
guy out there to replace him with .
Jones is gonna make his first start without a legitimate
#1 and #2 WR and a slot WR with a concussion .
Danial Jones secure the football at all times .
Know when to hold them and know when to fold them
Oh and know when to slide don't get yourself
killed out there .
I agree with Eric ...  
Manny in CA : 9/17/2019 4:32 pm : link

Tate is a "last piece of the puzzle" kind of guy, not the future for a rebuilding team.

On-top-of-that - He's a slot guy, we have one (Shep).

If it's to placate the loss of OBJ, then we're to be pitied.
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