the dome is only a part of it. The coaching and scheme built for him is another. Funny how no one mentions that Brees went 7-9 four times from 2012-2016. He's a stats machine but not in the Rogers/Brady/Peyton class in my opinion.
I have him a notch below, too. But I do admire what he's done with his size and arm limitations. He seems to have gotten the absolute most out of his skills.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's actually a good debate... Â
The game was so different. Look at the completion percentage, TD./int. ratio in that era. Teams were heavy run and then it was a lot of big throws down the field and Namath excelled at that. You don't write NFL history without Broadway guaranteeing beating the Colts imo.
This is a really tired, old argument here, but sure, look at those numbers. Namath lags almost all of his contemporaries, who played in that same era, in those categories.
I think Arniefez said it much better than I did above. I don't follow stats obviously as much as you so we will just have differing opinion on this.
It's more than talent. It's the opinion of the people who are in this business. HoF status is the direct result of some 40 plus people's opinions.
And the opinion has been that Eli was in the top 5 among his peers in two of his sixteen years. 2 of 16.
Of the QBs who have had at least 8 years in the league with Eli -- in other words, Eli's contemporaries -- how many are generally considered having made a clearly superior HoF case than him?
I'm sure it's me today, but I'm not following you here.
Are you saying Eli has a great case or Eli has a weaker case?
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
This is how a majority of the public views Eli.
I know many do. But, that doesn't make it true.
But this is true: the Giants defense gave up 14 points in Super Bowl 42, then (a net of) 15 points in Super Bowl 46. And before 2019, the last time a team's defense gave up so few points in the Super Bowl, but its offense was so inept that it still failed to win the trophy, was in the early 1970s, the entirely different dead ball era. That's more than 45 years -- about 10 generations in NFL time -- ago.
It's absolutely not an injustice, not a conspiracy, against Eli, to take the above into consideration when evaluating his two Super Bowl victories, which constitute 95% of his Hall of Fame credentials.
RE: If you tuned into ESPN, FS1, and national sports talk radio today Â
the overwhelming sentiment is that he is a lock to get in. The only thing that would even hurt his chances is if he gets that sub 500 label, but even then he'll still make it. Marcellus Wiley put it pretty good. You can't make a Superbowl highlight reel without a handful of Eli's plays. T
This is kinda shocking. All these people have spent hours bashing Eli and saying he’s not a HOFer. Now that he is done, they’re saying he’s a lock HOFer. Most people already knew this, but it’s still surprising to hear this sentiment from these media heads. Guess the whole “Eli isn’t a HOFer” debate generated a ton of clicks for them. Now that it’s over, they can tell the truth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This guy must have been hitting the sweet pipe... Â
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
This is how a majority of the public views Eli.
I know many do. But, that doesn't make it true.
But this is true: the Giants defense gave up 14 points in Super Bowl 42, then (a net of) 15 points in Super Bowl 46. And before 2019, the last time a team's defense gave up so few points in the Super Bowl, but its offense was so inept that it still failed to win the trophy, was in the early 1970s, the entirely different dead ball era. That's more than 45 years -- about 10 generations in NFL time -- ago.
It's absolutely not an injustice, not a conspiracy, against Eli, to take the above into consideration when evaluating his two Super Bowl victories, which constitute 95% of his Hall of Fame credentials.
Okay let's take it into consideration. Then I realize the defense gave of late drives for scores in both games and Eli in limited time under intense pressure drove for the team to winning points.
I don't think people appreciate how selective NFL HOF is. Â
The NHL routinely inducts players that were very good but not necessarily one of the best.
The NFL selects only the best.
Here are all the modern era NFL QBs in the HOF:
Modern Era: Quarterbacks (26)
Troy Aikman 1989-2000
George Blanda (Also PK) 1949-1958, 1960-1975
Terry Bradshaw 1970-1983
Len Dawson 1957-1975
John Elway 1983-1998
Brett Favre 1991-2010
Dan Fouts 1973-1987
Otto Graham 1946-1955
Bob Griese 1967-1980
Sonny Jurgensen 1957-1974
Jim Kelly 1986-1996
Bobby Layne 1948-1962
Dan Marino 1983-1999
Joe Montana 1979-1994
Warren Moon 1984-2000
Joe Namath 1965-1977
Ken Stabler 1970-1984
Bart Starr 1956-1971
Roger Staubach 1969-1979
Fran Tarkenton 1961-1978
Y.A. Tittle 1948-1964
Johnny Unitas 1956-1973
Norm Van Brocklin 1949-1960
Kurt Warner 1998-2009
Bob Waterfield 1945-1952
Steve Young 1985-1999
I don't think Eli was ever even considered a top 5 QB any year he was in the NFL while he played
Eli's only thing going for him is the Super Bowls. I'm not sure that's enough to get in, but it is certainly enough for an argument.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's actually a good debate... Â
It's more than talent. It's the opinion of the people who are in this business. HoF status is the direct result of some 40 plus people's opinions.
And the opinion has been that Eli was in the top 5 among his peers in two of his sixteen years. 2 of 16.
Of the QBs who have had at least 8 years in the league with Eli -- in other words, Eli's contemporaries -- how many are generally considered having made a clearly superior HoF case than him?
I'm sure it's me today, but I'm not following you here.
Are you saying Eli has a great case or Eli has a weaker case?
Does a potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "first ballot" -- usually produce more top-5-among-his-peer seasons than 2 out of 16?
Does potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "a lock" -- usually have less than 4 or 5 contemporary peers who produce obviously more superior Hall of Fame credentials than his?
the same debate 20 years ago with Phil Simms. My thoughts were no then and similarly no now for Eli. Maybe I just disagree with the criteria being mentioned here but my criteria is dominating the position over a period of years. Neither did.
but he has warts on his resume, too.
outside of the two SB runs, he's only won once (or not at all) in the playoffs.
second half of his career, he's piloted some bad teams. If you give him kudos for the SB years, you've got to give him demerits for the shit years.
being an ironman starter for 15 years will pile up some seemingly impressive stats, but half his career, that hasn't corresponded with wins.
As stated, he hasn't stood on the podium of top echelon QB any year he's been in the league.
He's been a good, often great, QB, but he's also been mr inconsistent a lot, too. IF he didn't have the rings, with the same stats, would he be in the conversation? But he does have the rings, so I'd say borderline candidate leaning toward getting in.
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
This is how a majority of the public views Eli.
I know many do. But, that doesn't make it true.
But this is true: the Giants defense gave up 14 points in Super Bowl 42, then (a net of) 15 points in Super Bowl 46. And before 2019, the last time a team's defense gave up so few points in the Super Bowl, but its offense was so inept that it still failed to win the trophy, was in the early 1970s, the entirely different dead ball era. That's more than 45 years -- about 10 generations in NFL time -- ago.
It's absolutely not an injustice, not a conspiracy, against Eli, to take the above into consideration when evaluating his two Super Bowl victories, which constitute 95% of his Hall of Fame credentials.
Okay let's take it into consideration. Then I realize the defense gave of late drives for scores in both games and Eli in limited time under intense pressure drove for the team to winning points.
Did you realize "... the defense gave of late drives for scores in both games", or did you dream about it?
I was at Lucas Oil Stadium to witness my beloved Giants win Super Bowl 46, cheering loudly and mostly when Eli handled the ball. And I am sure New England scored their 17th and final point of the game with 11:25 left in the THIRD quarter.
IF he didn't have the rings, with the same stats, would he be in the conversation? But he does have the rings, so I'd say borderline candidate leaning toward getting in.
This is a very fair assessment, echoing mine.
If Eli makes the HoF, I will make every effort to attend his induction ceremony, wearing his jersey and my Super Bowl 46 ticket hanging.
What I do have a problem is numerous BBIers being so cocksure that he is a lock, only "maybe not first ballot". This is after most here once thought Tom Coughlin could coach as long as he wanted to (then move upstairs for an executive position, what a cozy family atmosphere!), that John Mara was such a model and enviable owner that we're blessed to have, that Jerry Reese would/could find another GM job in the league before dinner if he's let go at lunch time, and so on ...
Does a potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "first ballot" -- usually produce more top-5-among-his-peer seasons than 2 out of 16?
Does potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "a lock" -- usually have less than 4 or 5 contemporary peers who produce obviously more superior Hall of Fame credentials than his?
No argument from me what you are suggesting. I don't think Eli is a first ballot guy, nor do I think he SHOULD be a lock just in general
But I think he's getting in for three reasons: (1) beat the Pats 2X, (2) the Manning name, and (3) there are players in the HoF less qualified.
Does a potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "first ballot" -- usually produce more top-5-among-his-peer seasons than 2 out of 16?
Does potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "a lock" -- usually have less than 4 or 5 contemporary peers who produce obviously more superior Hall of Fame credentials than his?
No argument from me what you are suggesting. I don't think Eli is a first ballot guy, nor do I think he SHOULD be a lock just in general
But I think he's getting in for three reasons: (1) beat the Pats 2X, (2) the Manning name, and (3) there are players in the HoF less qualified.
Here is some things written about Namath. I hate the Jets but this is what those who lived in the times.
-Vince Lombardi said that he was a perfect passer. Bear Bryant said that he was the best athlete he ever coached.
-John Madden put him on his All-Superbowl Team along with Joe Montana and Roger Staubach.
-Don Shula(Coach of the Colts in Supebowl III said that all of the other teams that they played could not handle the Colt Blitz. Shula said that Namath picked it up and because of his quick release , he was able to capitalize. -Bill Walsh said that he was the most gifted QB he had every seen.
Never saw Namath live. But Namath was supremely respected in the league. Bear Bryant said he was the best athlete he ever coached. I have never seen a QB throw the ball so effortlessly and he beat the Colts. He belongs to be in and amazingly he had bad knees entering the NFL. He very well might be the best pure passer to this day imo.
Oh, neither did I. My dad swears by his talent. But just look at this numbers. Even with that being a tougher era to play in, Namath's results are pedestrian.
So it's got to be more than just talent as the main catalyst for the argument...
I think part of it was his winning SBIII in a huge upset vs the big bad NFL and the impact that had on the league and eventual merger.
Not taking anything away from his talent as he was a terrific QB and could pass as good or better than anyone in his era. Saw him go toe to toe with Unitas one game where they both threw for over 400 yds which would probably be the equivilant of 600 yds in today's NFL.
IF he didn't have the rings, with the same stats, would he be in the conversation? But he does have the rings, so I'd say borderline candidate leaning toward getting in.
This is a very fair assessment, echoing mine.
If Eli makes the HoF, I will make every effort to attend his induction ceremony, wearing his jersey and my Super Bowl 46 ticket hanging.
What I do have a problem is numerous BBIers being so cocksure that he is a lock, only "maybe not first ballot". This is after most here once thought Tom Coughlin could coach as long as he wanted to (then move upstairs for an executive position, what a cozy family atmosphere!), that John Mara was such a model and enviable owner that we're blessed to have, that Jerry Reese would/could find another GM job in the league before dinner if he's let go at lunch time, and so on ...
I believe he will get in but I think this is a great post satirizing BBI conventional wisdom.
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
Schatz is a Patriots fan who has always been very bitter about 2007. No joke, it's true.
I'm guessing this guy forgot the Giants D gave up the lead late in SB42 and Eli drove the O down for the game winning TD. At the time he was the only QB to throw two come from behind TDs in the 4th Qtr of a SB.
Honestly that game alone would merit HOF consideration with him leading them to an all time victory and preventing the great Pats from being undefeated. It was an historic win not just for the Giants but to the league as well.
IMO, it's right up there in league significance with SBIII and the Dolphins beating the Skins to cap their 17-0 season.
RE: RE: RE: Looking at Eli over the past 16 years I dont Â
think he is a HOF QB, he has had HOF moments. I never looked at Eli and said he is the best in the league or is debatable that he is the best which is what I think is a HOF.
I do believe that he will get in because of the span of his career and what he has accomplished. I also think he has represented this franchise in the best possible light. He is one of the best Giants of all time both as a person and player.
Were you under a rock in 2011?
Brees, Rodgers and Brady were still a level up from Eli that year and other years. They had better stats in every category and were just better players and unfortunately that is who he is compared to. Eli has certainly had his moments but he wasnt as consistent. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
Eli should have been (WAS) MVP of the league in 2011. Especially down the stretch and through the playoffs. That throw to Manningham on the sidelines to win the 2nd was as clutch of a throw as you will ever see. How many QBs have won 2 SBs? And then the MVP of each? He's 1000% in and I'll be shocked if it's not first ballot.
I’m not sure he deserves it. Two SBs, other than that he was a compiler and he does get points for being an iron man. The HOF should be reserved for those that were the best or at least in the conversation as being the best for a number of years. Eli was never in that conversation. However, I suspect Big Ben and Rivers get in along with Eli.
I’m not sure he deserves it. Two SBs, other than that he was a compiler and he does get points for being an iron man. The HOF should be reserved for those that were the best or at least in the conversation as being the best for a number of years. Eli was never in that conversation. However, I suspect Big Ben and Rivers get in along with Eli.
It's not just two SB's but two SB MVP's vs the greatest dynasty the league has ever had. That means he played his best in the biggest games of his life vs the best the league had. Super impressive and I'd say that he belongs even if it was another QB on another team who did that.
The problem is you have morons in the room like Peter King who Â
This is pretty good evidence for him getting in. Because up until now the sports media like ESPN has always said no through the years anytime they did these pieces and let’s face it - his case has not gotten stronger these last few years. It means Father Time will provide the perspective on his career achievements and he will get in.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Looking at Eli over the past 16 years I dont Â
think he is a HOF QB, he has had HOF moments. I never looked at Eli and said he is the best in the league or is debatable that he is the best which is what I think is a HOF.
I do believe that he will get in because of the span of his career and what he has accomplished. I also think he has represented this franchise in the best possible light. He is one of the best Giants of all time both as a person and player.
Were you under a rock in 2011?
Brees, Rodgers and Brady were still a level up from Eli that year and other years. They had better stats in every category and were just better players and unfortunately that is who he is compared to. Eli has certainly had his moments but he wasnt as consistent. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
Eli should have been (WAS) MVP of the league in 2011. Especially down the stretch and through the playoffs. That throw to Manningham on the sidelines to win the 2nd was as clutch of a throw as you will ever see. How many QBs have won 2 SBs? And then the MVP of each? He's 1000% in and I'll be shocked if it's not first ballot.
2011 was an MVP caliber season and his best season by far. He was elite. BUT he was not and should not have been NFL MVP. Aaron Rodgers who rightfully won the award finished the season with 4,643 passing yards, 45 touchdown passes, and six interceptions, good for a passer rating of 122.5, which as of 2018 is the highest single-season passer rating in NFL history and led a 15-1 team.
And remember it’s a regular season award.
Eli had 4933 yds 29 TD and 16 INT with a 9-7 team. He just wasn’t the NFL MVP.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Looking at Eli over the past 16 years I dont Â
think he is a HOF QB, he has had HOF moments. I never looked at Eli and said he is the best in the league or is debatable that he is the best which is what I think is a HOF.
I do believe that he will get in because of the span of his career and what he has accomplished. I also think he has represented this franchise in the best possible light. He is one of the best Giants of all time both as a person and player.
Were you under a rock in 2011?
Brees, Rodgers and Brady were still a level up from Eli that year and other years. They had better stats in every category and were just better players and unfortunately that is who he is compared to. Eli has certainly had his moments but he wasnt as consistent. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
Eli should have been (WAS) MVP of the league in 2011. Especially down the stretch and through the playoffs. That throw to Manningham on the sidelines to win the 2nd was as clutch of a throw as you will ever see. How many QBs have won 2 SBs? And then the MVP of each? He's 1000% in and I'll be shocked if it's not first ballot.
2011 was an MVP caliber season and his best season by far. He was elite. BUT he was not and should not have been NFL MVP. Aaron Rodgers who rightfully won the award finished the season with 4,643 passing yards, 45 touchdown passes, and six interceptions, good for a passer rating of 122.5, which as of 2018 is the highest single-season passer rating in NFL history and led a 15-1 team.
And remember it’s a regular season award.
Eli had 4933 yds 29 TD and 16 INT with a 9-7 team. He just wasn’t the NFL MVP.
He had the 32nd ranked run offense and a bottom ten defense during the regular season.
I’m not sure he deserves it. Two SBs, other than that he was a compiler and he does get points for being an iron man. The HOF should be reserved for those that were the best or at least in the conversation as being the best for a number of years. Eli was never in that conversation. However, I suspect Big Ben and Rivers get in along with Eli.
It's not just two SB's but two SB MVP's vs the greatest dynasty the league has ever had. That means he played his best in the biggest games of his life vs the best the league had. Super impressive and I'd say that he belongs even if it was another QB on another team who did that.
People just say “2 SB’s” ( which is huge) but they don’t talks about some of the amazing games in the playoffs leading up to the SBs. At least for the first run, he carried the team as much as anyone. Just surviving in Lambeau is an accomplishment.
And, for a while, there was nobody better at leading a team to come from behind in the last few minutes. There were times, and we had those discussions on this site, when people would say they would take some of his more revered peers for the first 58 minutes of a game but there was no one they wanted more in the last two than Eli
today said that Eli was just a mediocre QB after winning the Super Bowl.
As I said in another thread, his combined 2014-2015 numbers stand up to any QB not named Brady or Rodgers.
Stats during a non winning season are empty and irrelevant. Did his peers win games with those same stats or are we going to blame the team and not eli
Then he went in to Lambeau and whipped the 15-1 team that had the MVP on it.
There is an argument to be made there, but Rodgers was silly that year. A lot of those 4th quarter numbers were because we were in constant dog fights all year in the 4th quarter. Eli also didn't even have a 2-1 TD/Int ratio that year. Not good.
On the Sports Junkies in DC today the four hosts held a vote for his HOF chances and only 1 of the 4 gave him the vote. Happily it was the one guy on the show I actually respect since he played college sports. The other 3 are just loud mouth couch jockeys like many of us.
The thinking to minimize fourth quarter comebacks. I guess your point is that Eli got a lot of opportunities to come from behind in the fourth? Strange way to look at it in my opinion.
Also let's not act like his td/int ratio wasn't about 2-1
Eli's body of work is all over the map, his career has been nothing but streaky at best...but people see what they want to see...
Name a two time SB MVP not in the HOF.
Eli's career will age like fine wine. The great QBs that won SBs are going to back Eli's case. They KNOW what 2 SB MVP trophies mean. ELi has as many playoff wins as Drew Brees, Steve Young and Dan Marino...Just sayin'
I have him a notch below, too. But I do admire what he's done with his size and arm limitations. He seems to have gotten the absolute most out of his skills.
Quote:
The game was so different. Look at the completion percentage, TD./int. ratio in that era. Teams were heavy run and then it was a lot of big throws down the field and Namath excelled at that. You don't write NFL history without Broadway guaranteeing beating the Colts imo.
This is a really tired, old argument here, but sure, look at those numbers. Namath lags almost all of his contemporaries, who played in that same era, in those categories.
I think Arniefez said it much better than I did above. I don't follow stats obviously as much as you so we will just have differing opinion on this.
It's more than talent. It's the opinion of the people who are in this business. HoF status is the direct result of some 40 plus people's opinions.
And the opinion has been that Eli was in the top 5 among his peers in two of his sixteen years. 2 of 16.
Of the QBs who have had at least 8 years in the league with Eli -- in other words, Eli's contemporaries -- how many are generally considered having made a clearly superior HoF case than him?
I'm sure it's me today, but I'm not following you here.
Are you saying Eli has a great case or Eli has a weaker case?
He's been the Rodney Dangerfield of the NFL for so long, why would or should this be any different.
Wow Sal Pal said that? That’s really cool actually. Eli 1st ballot is correct.
Quote:
In comment 14584248 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
..during those runs.
Quote:
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
This is how a majority of the public views Eli.
I know many do. But, that doesn't make it true.
But this is true: the Giants defense gave up 14 points in Super Bowl 42, then (a net of) 15 points in Super Bowl 46. And before 2019, the last time a team's defense gave up so few points in the Super Bowl, but its offense was so inept that it still failed to win the trophy, was in the early 1970s, the entirely different dead ball era. That's more than 45 years -- about 10 generations in NFL time -- ago.
It's absolutely not an injustice, not a conspiracy, against Eli, to take the above into consideration when evaluating his two Super Bowl victories, which constitute 95% of his Hall of Fame credentials.
This is kinda shocking. All these people have spent hours bashing Eli and saying he’s not a HOFer. Now that he is done, they’re saying he’s a lock HOFer. Most people already knew this, but it’s still surprising to hear this sentiment from these media heads. Guess the whole “Eli isn’t a HOFer” debate generated a ton of clicks for them. Now that it’s over, they can tell the truth.
Quote:
In comment 14584279 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 14584248 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
..during those runs.
Quote:
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
This is how a majority of the public views Eli.
I know many do. But, that doesn't make it true.
But this is true: the Giants defense gave up 14 points in Super Bowl 42, then (a net of) 15 points in Super Bowl 46. And before 2019, the last time a team's defense gave up so few points in the Super Bowl, but its offense was so inept that it still failed to win the trophy, was in the early 1970s, the entirely different dead ball era. That's more than 45 years -- about 10 generations in NFL time -- ago.
It's absolutely not an injustice, not a conspiracy, against Eli, to take the above into consideration when evaluating his two Super Bowl victories, which constitute 95% of his Hall of Fame credentials.
Okay let's take it into consideration. Then I realize the defense gave of late drives for scores in both games and Eli in limited time under intense pressure drove for the team to winning points.
The NFL selects only the best.
Here are all the modern era NFL QBs in the HOF:
Modern Era: Quarterbacks (26)
Troy Aikman 1989-2000
George Blanda (Also PK) 1949-1958, 1960-1975
Terry Bradshaw 1970-1983
Len Dawson 1957-1975
John Elway 1983-1998
Brett Favre 1991-2010
Dan Fouts 1973-1987
Otto Graham 1946-1955
Bob Griese 1967-1980
Sonny Jurgensen 1957-1974
Jim Kelly 1986-1996
Bobby Layne 1948-1962
Dan Marino 1983-1999
Joe Montana 1979-1994
Warren Moon 1984-2000
Joe Namath 1965-1977
Ken Stabler 1970-1984
Bart Starr 1956-1971
Roger Staubach 1969-1979
Fran Tarkenton 1961-1978
Y.A. Tittle 1948-1964
Johnny Unitas 1956-1973
Norm Van Brocklin 1949-1960
Kurt Warner 1998-2009
Bob Waterfield 1945-1952
Steve Young 1985-1999
I don't think Eli was ever even considered a top 5 QB any year he was in the NFL while he played
Eli's only thing going for him is the Super Bowls. I'm not sure that's enough to get in, but it is certainly enough for an argument.
Quote:
It's more than talent. It's the opinion of the people who are in this business. HoF status is the direct result of some 40 plus people's opinions.
And the opinion has been that Eli was in the top 5 among his peers in two of his sixteen years. 2 of 16.
Of the QBs who have had at least 8 years in the league with Eli -- in other words, Eli's contemporaries -- how many are generally considered having made a clearly superior HoF case than him?
I'm sure it's me today, but I'm not following you here.
Are you saying Eli has a great case or Eli has a weaker case?
Does a potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "first ballot" -- usually produce more top-5-among-his-peer seasons than 2 out of 16?
Does potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "a lock" -- usually have less than 4 or 5 contemporary peers who produce obviously more superior Hall of Fame credentials than his?
outside of the two SB runs, he's only won once (or not at all) in the playoffs.
second half of his career, he's piloted some bad teams. If you give him kudos for the SB years, you've got to give him demerits for the shit years.
being an ironman starter for 15 years will pile up some seemingly impressive stats, but half his career, that hasn't corresponded with wins.
As stated, he hasn't stood on the podium of top echelon QB any year he's been in the league.
He's been a good, often great, QB, but he's also been mr inconsistent a lot, too. IF he didn't have the rings, with the same stats, would he be in the conversation? But he does have the rings, so I'd say borderline candidate leaning toward getting in.
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In comment 14584298 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
In comment 14584279 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 14584248 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
..during those runs.
Quote:
Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
This is how a majority of the public views Eli.
I know many do. But, that doesn't make it true.
But this is true: the Giants defense gave up 14 points in Super Bowl 42, then (a net of) 15 points in Super Bowl 46. And before 2019, the last time a team's defense gave up so few points in the Super Bowl, but its offense was so inept that it still failed to win the trophy, was in the early 1970s, the entirely different dead ball era. That's more than 45 years -- about 10 generations in NFL time -- ago.
It's absolutely not an injustice, not a conspiracy, against Eli, to take the above into consideration when evaluating his two Super Bowl victories, which constitute 95% of his Hall of Fame credentials.
Okay let's take it into consideration. Then I realize the defense gave of late drives for scores in both games and Eli in limited time under intense pressure drove for the team to winning points.
Did you realize "... the defense gave of late drives for scores in both games", or did you dream about it?
I was at Lucas Oil Stadium to witness my beloved Giants win Super Bowl 46, cheering loudly and mostly when Eli handled the ball. And I am sure New England scored their 17th and final point of the game with 11:25 left in the THIRD quarter.
This is a very fair assessment, echoing mine.
If Eli makes the HoF, I will make every effort to attend his induction ceremony, wearing his jersey and my Super Bowl 46 ticket hanging.
What I do have a problem is numerous BBIers being so cocksure that he is a lock, only "maybe not first ballot". This is after most here once thought Tom Coughlin could coach as long as he wanted to (then move upstairs for an executive position, what a cozy family atmosphere!), that John Mara was such a model and enviable owner that we're blessed to have, that Jerry Reese would/could find another GM job in the league before dinner if he's let go at lunch time, and so on ...
What % is necessary for him to get in?
Does a potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "first ballot" -- usually produce more top-5-among-his-peer seasons than 2 out of 16?
Does potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "a lock" -- usually have less than 4 or 5 contemporary peers who produce obviously more superior Hall of Fame credentials than his?
No argument from me what you are suggesting. I don't think Eli is a first ballot guy, nor do I think he SHOULD be a lock just in general
But I think he's getting in for three reasons: (1) beat the Pats 2X, (2) the Manning name, and (3) there are players in the HoF less qualified.
The BBI vocal crowd also lamented his wild inconsistency his first several years, wondering if he was ever going to be worth the trade.
I guess that sweet spot in the middle makes him a lock.
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Does a potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "first ballot" -- usually produce more top-5-among-his-peer seasons than 2 out of 16?
Does potential Hall of Famer -- especially if he is to be "a lock" -- usually have less than 4 or 5 contemporary peers who produce obviously more superior Hall of Fame credentials than his?
No argument from me what you are suggesting. I don't think Eli is a first ballot guy, nor do I think he SHOULD be a lock just in general
But I think he's getting in for three reasons: (1) beat the Pats 2X, (2) the Manning name, and (3) there are players in the HoF less qualified.
Here is some things written about Namath. I hate the Jets but this is what those who lived in the times.
-Vince Lombardi said that he was a perfect passer. Bear Bryant said that he was the best athlete he ever coached.
-John Madden put him on his All-Superbowl Team along with Joe Montana and Roger Staubach.
-Don Shula(Coach of the Colts in Supebowl III said that all of the other teams that they played could not handle the Colt Blitz. Shula said that Namath picked it up and because of his quick release , he was able to capitalize. -Bill Walsh said that he was the most gifted QB he had every seen.
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Never saw Namath live. But Namath was supremely respected in the league. Bear Bryant said he was the best athlete he ever coached. I have never seen a QB throw the ball so effortlessly and he beat the Colts. He belongs to be in and amazingly he had bad knees entering the NFL. He very well might be the best pure passer to this day imo.
Oh, neither did I. My dad swears by his talent. But just look at this numbers. Even with that being a tougher era to play in, Namath's results are pedestrian.
So it's got to be more than just talent as the main catalyst for the argument...
I think part of it was his winning SBIII in a huge upset vs the big bad NFL and the impact that had on the league and eventual merger.
Not taking anything away from his talent as he was a terrific QB and could pass as good or better than anyone in his era. Saw him go toe to toe with Unitas one game where they both threw for over 400 yds which would probably be the equivilant of 600 yds in today's NFL.
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IF he didn't have the rings, with the same stats, would he be in the conversation? But he does have the rings, so I'd say borderline candidate leaning toward getting in.
This is a very fair assessment, echoing mine.
If Eli makes the HoF, I will make every effort to attend his induction ceremony, wearing his jersey and my Super Bowl 46 ticket hanging.
What I do have a problem is numerous BBIers being so cocksure that he is a lock, only "maybe not first ballot". This is after most here once thought Tom Coughlin could coach as long as he wanted to (then move upstairs for an executive position, what a cozy family atmosphere!), that John Mara was such a model and enviable owner that we're blessed to have, that Jerry Reese would/could find another GM job in the league before dinner if he's let go at lunch time, and so on ...
I believe he will get in but I think this is a great post satirizing BBI conventional wisdom.
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..during those runs.
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Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: No. Manning never finished a season higher than eighth in Football Outsiders' passing DYAR, a measure of total passing value. He played well in two Super Bowl runs, but the Giants primarily won those Super Bowls with defense. Manning was the Jim Plunkett of the 2000s.
The D was fantastic, particularly in 2007, it rose to the occasion somewhat in 2011. But the idea the defense was the primary reason for those titles is absurd. Revoke this guy's vote.
Schatz is a Patriots fan who has always been very bitter about 2007. No joke, it's true.
I'm guessing this guy forgot the Giants D gave up the lead late in SB42 and Eli drove the O down for the game winning TD. At the time he was the only QB to throw two come from behind TDs in the 4th Qtr of a SB.
Honestly that game alone would merit HOF consideration with him leading them to an all time victory and preventing the great Pats from being undefeated. It was an historic win not just for the Giants but to the league as well.
IMO, it's right up there in league significance with SBIII and the Dolphins beating the Skins to cap their 17-0 season.
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In comment 14584067 Rudy5757 said:
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think he is a HOF QB, he has had HOF moments. I never looked at Eli and said he is the best in the league or is debatable that he is the best which is what I think is a HOF.
I do believe that he will get in because of the span of his career and what he has accomplished. I also think he has represented this franchise in the best possible light. He is one of the best Giants of all time both as a person and player.
Were you under a rock in 2011?
Brees, Rodgers and Brady were still a level up from Eli that year and other years. They had better stats in every category and were just better players and unfortunately that is who he is compared to. Eli has certainly had his moments but he wasnt as consistent. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
Eli should have been (WAS) MVP of the league in 2011. Especially down the stretch and through the playoffs. That throw to Manningham on the sidelines to win the 2nd was as clutch of a throw as you will ever see. How many QBs have won 2 SBs? And then the MVP of each? He's 1000% in and I'll be shocked if it's not first ballot.
It's not just two SB's but two SB MVP's vs the greatest dynasty the league has ever had. That means he played his best in the biggest games of his life vs the best the league had. Super impressive and I'd say that he belongs even if it was another QB on another team who did that.
As I said in another thread, his combined 2014-2015 numbers stand up to any QB not named Brady or Rodgers.
This is pretty good evidence for him getting in. Because up until now the sports media like ESPN has always said no through the years anytime they did these pieces and let’s face it - his case has not gotten stronger these last few years. It means Father Time will provide the perspective on his career achievements and he will get in.
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In comment 14584075 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14584067 Rudy5757 said:
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think he is a HOF QB, he has had HOF moments. I never looked at Eli and said he is the best in the league or is debatable that he is the best which is what I think is a HOF.
I do believe that he will get in because of the span of his career and what he has accomplished. I also think he has represented this franchise in the best possible light. He is one of the best Giants of all time both as a person and player.
Were you under a rock in 2011?
Brees, Rodgers and Brady were still a level up from Eli that year and other years. They had better stats in every category and were just better players and unfortunately that is who he is compared to. Eli has certainly had his moments but he wasnt as consistent. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
Eli should have been (WAS) MVP of the league in 2011. Especially down the stretch and through the playoffs. That throw to Manningham on the sidelines to win the 2nd was as clutch of a throw as you will ever see. How many QBs have won 2 SBs? And then the MVP of each? He's 1000% in and I'll be shocked if it's not first ballot.
2011 was an MVP caliber season and his best season by far. He was elite. BUT he was not and should not have been NFL MVP. Aaron Rodgers who rightfully won the award finished the season with 4,643 passing yards, 45 touchdown passes, and six interceptions, good for a passer rating of 122.5, which as of 2018 is the highest single-season passer rating in NFL history and led a 15-1 team.
And remember it’s a regular season award.
Eli had 4933 yds 29 TD and 16 INT with a 9-7 team. He just wasn’t the NFL MVP.
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In comment 14584175 Rudy5757 said:
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In comment 14584075 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14584067 Rudy5757 said:
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think he is a HOF QB, he has had HOF moments. I never looked at Eli and said he is the best in the league or is debatable that he is the best which is what I think is a HOF.
I do believe that he will get in because of the span of his career and what he has accomplished. I also think he has represented this franchise in the best possible light. He is one of the best Giants of all time both as a person and player.
Were you under a rock in 2011?
Brees, Rodgers and Brady were still a level up from Eli that year and other years. They had better stats in every category and were just better players and unfortunately that is who he is compared to. Eli has certainly had his moments but he wasnt as consistent. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
Eli should have been (WAS) MVP of the league in 2011. Especially down the stretch and through the playoffs. That throw to Manningham on the sidelines to win the 2nd was as clutch of a throw as you will ever see. How many QBs have won 2 SBs? And then the MVP of each? He's 1000% in and I'll be shocked if it's not first ballot.
2011 was an MVP caliber season and his best season by far. He was elite. BUT he was not and should not have been NFL MVP. Aaron Rodgers who rightfully won the award finished the season with 4,643 passing yards, 45 touchdown passes, and six interceptions, good for a passer rating of 122.5, which as of 2018 is the highest single-season passer rating in NFL history and led a 15-1 team.
And remember it’s a regular season award.
Eli had 4933 yds 29 TD and 16 INT with a 9-7 team. He just wasn’t the NFL MVP.
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I’m not sure he deserves it. Two SBs, other than that he was a compiler and he does get points for being an iron man. The HOF should be reserved for those that were the best or at least in the conversation as being the best for a number of years. Eli was never in that conversation. However, I suspect Big Ben and Rivers get in along with Eli.
It's not just two SB's but two SB MVP's vs the greatest dynasty the league has ever had. That means he played his best in the biggest games of his life vs the best the league had. Super impressive and I'd say that he belongs even if it was another QB on another team who did that.
People just say “2 SB’s” ( which is huge) but they don’t talks about some of the amazing games in the playoffs leading up to the SBs. At least for the first run, he carried the team as much as anyone. Just surviving in Lambeau is an accomplishment.
And, for a while, there was nobody better at leading a team to come from behind in the last few minutes. There were times, and we had those discussions on this site, when people would say they would take some of his more revered peers for the first 58 minutes of a game but there was no one they wanted more in the last two than Eli
As I said in another thread, his combined 2014-2015 numbers stand up to any QB not named Brady or Rodgers.
Stats during a non winning season are empty and irrelevant. Did his peers win games with those same stats or are we going to blame the team and not eli
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7 4th quarter comeback wins (NFL Record).
32nd ranked rushing attack. 25th ranked defense.
Think about how that relates to a 9-7 win season.
Then he went in to Lambeau and whipped the 15-1 team that had the MVP on it.
If he didn't beat the mighty Patriots twice, once when they were 17-0, I woould say no to the HOF
Name a two time SB MVP not in the HOF.
7 4th quarter comeback wins (NFL Record).
32nd ranked rushing attack. 25th ranked defense.
Think about how that relates to a 9-7 win season.
Then he went in to Lambeau and whipped the 15-1 team that had the MVP on it.
There is an argument to be made there, but Rodgers was silly that year. A lot of those 4th quarter numbers were because we were in constant dog fights all year in the 4th quarter. Eli also didn't even have a 2-1 TD/Int ratio that year. Not good.
4,643 yards
9.2 Y/A
45 TDs/6 INTs
7.5 TD/INT ratio
84.5 QBR
15-1 Packers Regular Season record
Those numbers are absurd.
The MVP is a regular season award and Rodgers clearly had the best season.
Also let's not act like his td/int ratio wasn't about 2-1
29/16.
4,643 yards
9.2 Y/A
45 TDs/6 INTs
7.5 TD/INT ratio
84.5 QBR
15-1 Packers Regular Season record
Those numbers are absurd.
The MVP is a regular season award and Rodgers clearly had the best season.
This a better way to see it. MVP is a regular season award. Eli's whole body of work was better than Rodgers in 2011.
MVP should come after the entire season is over.
EDIT: Typed crazy list of why and erased it all. You know all of it.
1st ballot.
His career is going to age very well, the big moments are so bright and memorable. You will forget the lows, so will the voters.
His legacy is that in the biggest of moments, on the biggest stages, he played his best, and beat the best the game has EVER seen. TWICE!
1st ballot HoF. Bank it.
Link - ( New Window )
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Eli's body of work is all over the map, his career has been nothing but streaky at best...but people see what they want to see...
Name a two time SB MVP not in the HOF.