That is not a rhetorical question, that is a legitimate one that I am not sure of the correct answer. But, if so and if this was my money, I would be angry at DG and PS. Can someone please remind me, we owed Eli only 5 million if we cut him after last year, am I right about that?
that is terrible business
Draft picks are valuable because they are free. If you have to pay 16-20 mil for them you might as well use that money to sign a guy who you know can play.
We could have easily gotten a 1st round pick for OBJ in the summer of 2018. Is 20 mil good value for peppers and a 3?
A GM's job involves a good bit of foresight, and so far DG is showing to be lacking in that department.
You have to look at the options. If you don't sign him, you can lose him for nothing. If he isn't signed and holds out, you get pennies on the dollar for him.
If you sign him and then trade him, you can get an adequate return.
Now, do I think that was the intention when he was signed? not exactly. But I do think that the brass knew a signed Beckham would be easier and return more than an unsigned OBJ who could be a wild card.
But you'd swear signing him was a colossal mistake
A GM's job involves a good bit of foresight, and so far DG is showing to be lacking in that department.
But ron, we got better value for Beckham with him being signed. What do you think he gets if he holds out or worse yet, played another year and left for nothing?
I think they'd be screaming, "But we could have gotten a 1st rounder and a player for him!!"
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OBJ's behavior last year was not hard to see coming. Personally I dont think the stuff that is verified is all that bad but understand why others think it is. The unverified stuff is a bit more concerning but I'm not gonna kill a guy for putting himself on the shelf with an injury he could maybe play through in a lost season.
A GM's job involves a good bit of foresight, and so far DG is showing to be lacking in that department.
But ron, we got better value for Beckham with him being signed. What do you think he gets if he holds out or worse yet, played another year and left for nothing?
I disagree but its all conjecture. I think we could have easily gotten a 1 for him before signing him and that would have been a much better deal than a 1, 3, peppers and 20 mil out the door.
And unless you think he signed him with the exact purpose of trading him, I don't see how you can not call it a mistake or lack or foresight.
But as I said, I don't think we will see eye to eye on this one and thats fine.
Gettleman has in effect chosen the draft as a priority. He sold JPP and Beckham for draft picks, to contribute to a scenario where he's had four first round picks and eight top 100 picks in the last 2 years.
The price he's paid is dead money, and it's been nontrivial - 70M over the last two years.
Those 8 picks have to become the foundation of the next championship window, if not, yikes.
but nothing changed, Obj was in 2018 who he has been his entire career
If you are of the belief we weren't going to compete, then just ridding the team of players who wouldn't contend and who absorbed a ton of cap is still a direction he likely had to take.
Even if Gettleman took the dead money to be in a much better cap situation - we have a much more fluid method for building the roster.
If the majority of those picks turn out to be solid players with the additions coming from the cap room we will have available, we will be a better team. A much better team.
And a lot of that rests with Jones.
Had they dealt OBJ off his surgery year without a contract they would have gotten less for him in picks and had Gettleman sold him low without ever playing a game during his tenure it would have been moronic.
Hopefully that will pay off next season, and they have a plan for that money.
He'll be lucky to last the season there, and they might actually be worse than us.
When he can put up two pretty bad performances and people see it as an improvement, that's saying a lot.
He'll be lucky to last the season there, and they might actually be worse than us.
When he can put up two pretty bad performances and people see it as an improvement, that's saying a lot.
That's fair - I know week 1 he got some positive reviews, I haven't followed him closely but you are right, for him an improvement is not being on the backpages as the reason his team lost which is a very low bar.
For the average player, that was terrible - but I think most people saw washington with a 17-0 lead and translated that into meaning flowers was good.
If you are of the belief we weren't going to compete, then just ridding the team of players who wouldn't contend and who absorbed a ton of cap is still a direction he likely had to take.
You seem to take issue with people going hard in the paint on Gettleman, but this statement is exactly why many are finding fault with him (forgive me for cropping, I don't think doing so twists your words and it certainly isn't my intention to do so).
Eli fits the exact description, but he got a pass. It was a sub-optimal path given what he was doing elsewhere.
Replacing a QB in a transition is much more important than the other moves that have been made. I know people don't like the timing and they rail about the cap hit this season, but cutting eli still had consequences to the cap as well, and if Jones was or is terrible, that isn't a great plan to have in place either.
People are like "We should have started Lauletta or a $7M retread and we could have lost with them just as easily. While that might be true, it doesn't send a very good message.
Replacing a QB in a transition is much more important than the other moves that have been made. I know people don't like the timing and they rail about the cap hit this season, but cutting eli still had consequences to the cap as well, and if Jones was or is terrible, that isn't a great plan to have in place either.
People are like "We should have started Lauletta or a $7M retread and we could have lost with them just as easily. While that might be true, it doesn't send a very good message.
I personally think the stuff about 'the message' is highly overplayed relative to the $17M difference (yes, ostensibly $17M comes down if you pay a cheap replacement, but it also goes back up when you then pass on the Golden Tates and Antoine Betheas of the world).
Given the quick hook, which I do absolutely give them credit for as you suggest, whatever bad message may have been case is quickly rectified by getting the exciting, highly-drafted rookie on the field and show that the upswing is starting in earnest.
Definitely a matter of opinion, I just don't see how it's fair to act like those finding significant fault with the approach are out-of-line or absurd.
You have to look at the options. If you don't sign him, you can lose him for nothing. If he isn't signed and holds out, you get pennies on the dollar for him.
If you sign him and then trade him, you can get an adequate return.
Now, do I think that was the intention when he was signed? not exactly. But I do think that the brass knew a signed Beckham would be easier and return more than an unsigned OBJ who could be a wild card.
But you'd swear signing him was a colossal mistake
That's because signing him was a colossal mistake. Instead of signing him, how about trading him after 2017? We've already heard he wanted to do it but was talked out of it by Shurmur.
The most frustrating aspect of BBI is the posters who will support the Giants' decision making even when it clearly sucks.
The idea that he would just "walk" ignores the significant leverage the Giants had. He had one more year on his contract plus the franchise tag.
If you want to swing your dick around do it in private in negotiations, don't sign a guy, give them much more significant leverage then swing your dick around in public and think he will fall in line then.
Reese and Abrams made an absolute mess of the cap. Gettleman has been doing the right thing by taking all those cap hits and getting them off the books.
I think the quality of players taken in the draft has improved dramatically under DG.
If you look at my posts, I have often stated that my expectations are low. I expected to lose this year, and while I expect improvement next year, I doubt it will be a playoff team even then. And that would be ok if everything else was going right.
However, I do believe that DG is starting to create his own mess the cap. While I understand that it's hard to part with a talent like Beckham, there were plenty of signs that signing him was a bad idea. There was significant internal discord about that signing as it turns out, and the team knew a lot more about him that we did. Some of that stuff has now leaked out. Given what they knew, they should have traded him before signing him. I'm sure there was a way to make it happen. Get him on the field in preseason, let people see that he was ready to play, and move him and let the new team sign him (the return would have been fine). Signing Golden, Martin, Olgetree, Tate, Omameh, Stewart, Bethea, and Solder have all had negative cap consequences and have not brought a return on investment. The team still sucks.
Those signings are indicative of a lack of commitment and focus on the rebuild. They want to sell us all that the team can win now by making these signings, when really they can't. The team can lose just as well without any of those guys and their cap hits. If it were not for these bad contracts the Giants would have a lot more money against the cap next year. And instead of restructuring Solder and taking cap from the future, they could be rolling over cap money from this year to next. Had the team focused on the rebuild and committed to it, the team would be in better shape going forward. Instead they keep taking half measures and that is on DG.
I won't kill DG & the the rest of management for Eli, I agree with you that cutting him would be a bad message. He has been the leader of this team for 15 years, he has brought 2 SBs, he works hard, he is a solid citizen. There has to be some reward for all that, he has earned the right to play out this contract. But of course, this is the last year for him, no consideration to resigning.
We will see if Jones is the real deal.
I don't think he behaved as if the team was rebuilding going into last year. A huge flaw in self-scouting, in my view. I see the full tear-down this year. But I don't see the OL as 'fixed' - it isn't a good unit yet and a ton of resources have been thrown at it. I don't see what DG has done well as GM and see a lot of shit.
Hopefully that will pay off next season, and they have a plan for that money.
Let's hope so. Let's also keep in mind that DG already pissed away a third of the cap space we could have had next offseason with contracts handed out, restructured, or traded away this year.
I understand that his goal (or maybe his mandate) is to build the team to compete while he rebuilds the roster's core. Flying the plane while you're building it is not easy, of course. And I hope that once DG has his foundation built that we start to see some more prudent cap management, but until we see that, I see nothing wrong with some level of skepticism.
A lot of the same cap management missteps that we're seeing under Gettleman were also regular occurrences under Reese. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I think Abrams' approach to the cap leaves quite a bit of room for improvement.
Overall, the management of the cap hasn't been good, and the only thing we know is that the group of them has failed.
I personally suspect that much of it has to do with the 'mandate' that you hinted at. There's little doubt in my mind that some willingness from the top to lean into the turn 2-3 seasons ago would have us further along the road at this point.
I think FMiC had reservations about Solder...?
In the end, if the GM can't sell the owner on his vision. Then that's on the GM.
In the end, if the GM can't sell the owner on his vision. Then that's on the GM.
This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
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But in the end, I think Mara can be sold on a course of action. He's not Snyder.
In the end, if the GM can't sell the owner on his vision. Then that's on the GM.
This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
Agree 100% with Mcl here and am pretty much with Terps here as well but holding out hope it’s not true so we don’t have to go through another tear down in a couple years.
And in our case, the compete thing was a colossal misstep so take the heat...
This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
Here's the problem. While I can't prove it beyond circumstantial evidence, I believe DG and PS were hired largely because they sold Mara on their pro-Eli-ness. Which I think was exactly what Mara wanted to here. So they sort of boxed themselves in.
Hell, I'd argue this decision to sit Eli was possibly Mara's because Eli's record hit the 500 mark. And with the way the season is spiraling downward, keeping it at 500 was likely 0%.
Something to chew on...
The idea that he would just "walk" ignores the significant leverage the Giants had. He had one more year on his contract plus the franchise tag.
If you want to swing your dick around do it in private in negotiations, don't sign a guy, give them much more significant leverage then swing your dick around in public and think he will fall in line then.
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This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
Here's the problem. While I can't prove it beyond circumstantial evidence, I believe DG and PS were hired largely because they sold Mara on their pro-Eli-ness. Which I think was exactly what Mara wanted to here. So they sort of boxed themselves in.
Hell, I'd argue this decision to sit Eli was possibly Mara's because Eli's record hit the 500 mark. And with the way the season is spiraling downward, keeping it at 500 was likely 0%.
Something to chew on...
I believe this is correct. And while I know you feel that the team should have parted ways with Manning years ago, I don't think that keeping Manning has been the problem. Perhaps keeping him is a symptom, but not the disease. And if the only manifestation of the disease was keeping Manning, the team would be alright. Had the team walked away from Reese and Coughlin at the same time. Had the team hired a real GM and coach to follow them, had the team committed themselves to rebuilding 4 years ago, the rebuild would be nearly complete. With or without Eli.
Instead, we got 1 disastrous half measure after another. Just one more patch, and the Giants can compete. The Giants have need much more than just a patch job for 7 years. Instead we have watched worse and worse football while the team slowly and inevitably disintegrated. And even this year, when the Giants are still in the bottom 5 in the league, there was talk of playoffs, and more bad contracts, more half measures.
So while I won't say that Eli is the player that he was in 2011, I don't think he or his contract is what held this team back. Its the larger lack of vision and commitment.
You want to be the highest paid WR in the league? Great.
If you are fined by the league X times we can recoup bonus money
If you publicly air problems with your teammates we can recoup bonus money
This is what people mean by having a plan and managing a situation. They knew who OBJ was. Then you act like it BECAME untenable when he just acted like he always has? Give me a break.
I've said Gettleman has made many mistakes. On threads you've participated on.
- Not evaluating Omameah or Stewart correctly and signing them to contract above their street value
- Drafting Sam Beal (but that's more because I don't like any supplemental draft picks)
- Signing Golden Tate
Given the moves he made with Snacks, JPP, OV, Apple, Hart and Flowers, with the cap in mind and improving the locker room, I actually don't have a problem with either the Solder or Ogletree moves.
But then again - I didn't sharpen my pitchfork and have it ready because of the way he was hired, and I also saw the positive impact he had in Carolina and the negative impact his departure has had.
Had they dealt OBJ off his surgery year without a contract they would have gotten less for him in picks and had Gettleman sold him low without ever playing a game during his tenure it would have been moronic.
yeah.. poeple don't understand these things. Not to mention they may have actually wanted to keep OBJ until OBJ made it clear that he did not want to be here the moment after he got his new contract.
Vernon is on Reese, but Beckham ($16M) is on Gettleman and Eli ($23M) could have been cut to save $17M prior to March.
None of this is hindsight.
OBJ and Eli are absolutely hindsight. If you cannot see why, then you should find a forum for needlepoint or something.
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Can you list one decision that Gettleman made that you think was a mistake. Just 1.
I've said Gettleman has made many mistakes. On threads you've participated on.
- Not evaluating Omameah or Stewart correctly and signing them to contract above their street value
- Drafting Sam Beal (but that's more because I don't like any supplemental draft picks)
- Signing Golden Tate
Given the moves he made with Snacks, JPP, OV, Apple, Hart and Flowers, with the cap in mind and improving the locker room, I actually don't have a problem with either the Solder or Ogletree moves.
But then again - I didn't sharpen my pitchfork and have it ready because of the way he was hired, and I also saw the positive impact he had in Carolina and the negative impact his departure has had.
Thanks
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25% of the $188M salary cap.
Vernon is on Reese, but Beckham ($16M) is on Gettleman and Eli ($23M) could have been cut to save $17M prior to March.
None of this is hindsight.
OBJ and Eli are absolutely hindsight. If you cannot see why, then you should find a forum for needlepoint or something.
Hindsight?
I was here screaming to the heavens that those were all mistakes months before they happened...not because I'm clairvoyant, but because the logic was plain to see at the time for anyone not wearing blue glasses.
Beckham had a broken leg with no reported ligament or muscle damage. He was always going to recover. I firmly believe with 3 years of team control he could have been dealt straight up for a first round pick to the 9ers.
Many would have hated it, but it would have been the right move. Mike McGlinchey and 22M in my view was better than what they got.