That is not a rhetorical question, that is a legitimate one that I am not sure of the correct answer. But, if so and if this was my money, I would be angry at DG and PS. Can someone please remind me, we owed Eli only 5 million if we cut him after last year, am I right about that?
They're good for it, though.
Now the tricky part is this was obviously before the draft so there was no guarantee they'd get the QB they wanted. They also would have had to sign a bridge QB which would have probably been around $15-$18 million unless they were going to take a chance on the draft.
Point is, so what. Not sure why this is such a big deal and keeps coming up. It's not like that money was going to get the Giants to the SB this year or the next. Both parties had a contract and both parties are honoring that contract.
Get over it. It's done.
His reply was he was happy with the past two drafts. I imagine that was after seeing Jones during camp as a big reason as well as the focus strengthening the lines.
So I would thing DG is safe but PS still has to prove himself this year imo.
Vernon is on Reese, but Beckham ($16M) is on Gettleman and Eli ($23M) could have been cut to save $17M prior to March.
None of this is hindsight.
i was about to ask the same thing
why does anyone care about this stuff?
all i care about is winning on Sundays
+ 1 Now the answer to this ^^^question has me interested!
Do we season ticket holders have voting rights?
Eli is going to help Jones with preparation, guidance, handling the game, the media. etc. Who is a better role model for Jones at this stage?
Money well spent not to mention they were not cutting him.
Really?
Are you saying that if we didn't sign Eli (or Beckham, or Tate, or whoever, or whoever, or whoever....) you wouldn't have to pay for PSL's? or even as much?
2) Plans change
2a) The team is not a contender and
2b) Jones is far ahead of the curve
3) It’s not your money
Vernon is on Reese, but Beckham ($16M) is on Gettleman and Eli ($23M) could have been cut to save $17M prior to March.
None of this is hindsight.
Well tbf the 16 million bought us some cheap assets (whether or not they turn out to be worth it remains to be seen) and there is no way if you like DJ you could cut Eli prior to March. I would have cut him after the draft, but the 5 million would be well worth it so you don't tip your hand and have to trade premium assets away to move up. Playing the media in the draft is one thing DG did well this year.
I don't care, but I am curious. And, of course, If I was the owner and ran a company, I would be angry with my executives for wasting my money. This has nothing to do with Eli, I am glad he is taking the money , but when an executive sells an owner on a plan, I would figure that wasting his money would be a problem.
I am not trying to be difficult, but I cannot understand how an 18 million dollar decision by a football team I support is not an appropriate line of inquiry. I should also add that besides the salary cap (which is fungible and can always be manipulated) there are cash limits to what teams will spend. No clue what ours is, but our owners must have set some sort of budget.
the OBJ and Eli contracts were DG mistakes.
that is an absurd criticism. Ok substitute "our" to the "team I support" and "we" to the "new York Giants."
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but I really don't think this line of inquiry is any of your business, nor appropriate, nor is it yours or our money that was used.
I am not trying to be difficult, but I cannot understand how an 18 million dollar decision by a football team I support is not an appropriate line of inquiry. I should also add that besides the salary cap (which is fungible and can always be manipulated) there are cash limits to what teams will spend. No clue what ours is, but our owners must have set some sort of budget.
I understand your line of thinking. Some people are ultra sensitive right now regarding Eli. They paid what they had to and screw them he deserved it. I don't think they could have played it differenlty. Maybe they really thought the defense would be good enough. Hell the media had me sold. The O-line seems improved. SB has room to run and the QB had more than 2 seconds to get rid of the ball.....I digress, again.
the OBJ and Eli contracts were DG mistakes.
In hindsight maybe, but hindsight is a pretty lame view of things.
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and with appropriate contract structures keep them in the future?
the OBJ and Eli contracts were DG mistakes.
In hindsight maybe, but hindsight is a pretty lame view of things.
Isn't that a pretty important view when you are assessing job performance. Nobody is going to bat 1.000 but you have to be right sometimes on the big deal.
because it took us a grand total of 2 fucking games to accept what we already knew..
he was fucking toast. and THAT is 18 million, we could have spent/spend on say......ANY better player.
Can you name one free agent that was available that the Giants didn't sign because of cap space used by Eli? I think it had little impact.
His reply was he was happy with the past two drafts. I imagine that was after seeing Jones during camp as a big reason as well as the focus strengthening the lines.
So I would thing DG is safe but PS still has to prove himself this year imo.
I don't disagree with the decision, but it's valid to gripe about it.
Insofar as the conversation remains focused on the way the Giants manage the salary cap, I don't think it's inappropriate in any way.
Can you name one free agent that was available that the Giants didn't sign because of cap space used by Eli? I think it had little impact.
It would have made Solder's restructure unnecessary and would have created additional cap room in 2020 even if they built the team exactly the same way, just sans Eli (in which case the cap room created by his release minus the amount they freed up by restructuring Solder would apply to 2020 as a rollover).
Now that's probably not the way it would have played out, but to simply make it about free agents they could have signed this year is inaccurate since they could have rolled the cap space forward into 2020 and would not have had to make the moves they did for in-season cap space this year.
Fitzpatrick - 7M guaranteed
Taylor - 6M guaranteed
Bridgewater - 7.25M guaranteed
RG3 - 2M guaranteed
McCarron - 2.5M guaranteed
The Giants easily could have spent 7M on a stop gap and save 16M dollars if they had cut Manning.
Fitzpatrick - 7M guaranteed
Taylor - 6M guaranteed
Bridgewater - 7.25M guaranteed
RG3 - 2M guaranteed
McCarron - 2.5M guaranteed
The Giants easily could have spent 7M on a stop gap and save 16M dollars if they had cut Manning.
Why would Fitzpatrick sign with the Giants. He wants to survive.
Eli is going to help Jones with preparation, guidance, handling the game, the media. etc. Who is a better role model for Jones at this stage?
Money well spent not to mention they were not cutting him.
How do you know this? He has sat for a total of eight games his entire career. It would not be unusual if he is not the best backup in the world. He may not even have a clue how to convey the knowledge of all the things you mention after being a starting QB for 15 years. One just doesn’t become a coach/mentor overnight.
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And just to correct one repeated and completely inaccurate notion, the Giants would not have needed in any universe to spend 18M on a stop a gap QB.
Fitzpatrick - 7M guaranteed
Taylor - 6M guaranteed
Bridgewater - 7.25M guaranteed
RG3 - 2M guaranteed
McCarron - 2.5M guaranteed
The Giants easily could have spent 7M on a stop gap and save 16M dollars if they had cut Manning.
Why would Fitzpatrick sign with the Giants. He wants to survive.
The only team I'd pick the Giants above as a QB is actually the Dolphins.
Link - ( New Window )
Fitzpatrick - 7M guaranteed
Taylor - 6M guaranteed
Bridgewater - 7.25M guaranteed
RG3 - 2M guaranteed
McCarron - 2.5M guaranteed
The Giants easily could have spent 7M on a stop gap and save 16M dollars if they had cut Manning.
Ok so they save $10-12m and have an undeniably worse QB? What purpose does that serve? It's not like it's future money saved, he had 1 year left so the uses of that money were restricted to the FA that were available like Deone Buchanon or Daryl Williams (who has supposedly been bad). Or another Golden Tate for everyone to say it was a mistake to sign.
Am I the only one who thinks that for the $10m difference it was worth it to roll the dice on Eli in his second year in the system while also knowing even if not, he's an ideal mentor/team leader? When is the last time any of those guys sniffed the numbers Eli put up even last year? Have any of them ever hit 4k yards or 20+ tds in a single season?
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And just to correct one repeated and completely inaccurate notion, the Giants would not have needed in any universe to spend 18M on a stop a gap QB.
Fitzpatrick - 7M guaranteed
Taylor - 6M guaranteed
Bridgewater - 7.25M guaranteed
RG3 - 2M guaranteed
McCarron - 2.5M guaranteed
The Giants easily could have spent 7M on a stop gap and save 16M dollars if they had cut Manning.
Ok so they save $10-12m and have an undeniably worse QB? What purpose does that serve? It's not like it's future money saved, he had 1 year left so the uses of that money were restricted to the FA that were available like Deone Buchanon or Daryl Williams (who has supposedly been bad). Or another Golden Tate for everyone to say it was a mistake to sign.
Am I the only one who thinks that for the $10m difference it was worth it to roll the dice on Eli in his second year in the system while also knowing even if not, he's an ideal mentor/team leader? When is the last time any of those guys sniffed the numbers Eli put up even last year? Have any of them ever hit 4k yards or 20+ tds in a single season?
What do you mean "it's not like it's future money saved"? That's precisely what it is. You can roll over unused cap space to the following season, so it absolutely would have been future money saved. And it might have made it unnecessary for them to restructure Solder's contract, which would also be future money saved.
As for Eli being a mentor, that remains to be seen - he's never had to be one before, and the cast of developmental QBs that have come through the doors behind him haven't been cause for anyone to claim that Eli possesses these great mentoring skills. He's always been a leader by example - we'll see now if that's a role that can happen from the sidelines.
Good memory lane there...
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. Link - ( New Window )
Good memory lane there...
Some good opinions on there.
And some...not so much
What if he does that with Jones and then starts Eli the following game?
"Well I guess all you guys might not ask me to start Daniel for a while after that debacle..."
What if he does that with Jones and then starts Eli the following game?
"Well I guess all you guys might not ask me to start Daniel for a while after that debacle..."
That was a fireable offense.
That Christian character is pretty sassy (and totally right ;)
Your choice is to watch or not watch the product.
That’s the limit for you.
Your choice is to watch or not watch the product.
That’s the limit for you.
Ah good. It’s great when we talk another analytics that the Giants are strapped for cash but when it’s needed to make a point about ignoring their mistakes they have the money to burn it in the streets
Interesting read. Some people are so off base it is funny in retrospect.
Mostly people who are more vastly overpaid than Eli; or at least offer less in return for their hourly.
What do you mean "it's not like it's future money saved"? That's precisely what it is. You can roll over unused cap space to the following season, so it absolutely would have been future money saved. And it might have made it unnecessary for them to restructure Solder's contract, which would also be future money saved.
As for Eli being a mentor, that remains to be seen - he's never had to be one before, and the cast of developmental QBs that have come through the doors behind him haven't been cause for anyone to claim that Eli possesses these great mentoring skills. He's always been a leader by example - we'll see now if that's a role that can happen from the sidelines.
The entire premise of why people wanted Eli cut in March was to use the money elsewhere. Not punt it to next year when they are already going to have a lot more money free than good players to spend it on.
And yeah, "Eli has never had to be a mentor before", except for the half dozen guys he's helped mentor who speak glowingly of him having been the first person to call them after they were drafted, to then spending his time helping them understand how to play QB in the NFL from Rhett Bomar to Davis Webb - who was literally conveying to Darnold last year things he learned from Eli.
Jets' Davis Webb passing along tips to Sam Darnold that he learned from Eli Manning - ( New Window )
But remember, this also comes from the crew who brought you the 4th fewest dollars on the field in the NFL this year, $60M total on the defensive side of the ball, 8 wins the last 2 years, and 1 winning season since the 2nd Oabama adminstration.
Or stop discussing the team? It's purposeless. Plus you're not really changing anything.
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Is it easier if we focus on how they choose to use their cap room rather than their actual dollars? Since that actually has an impact on the competitiveness of the team we root for and all. Would that be an acceptable topic for you, Bill, or is it another fucking myth because it doesn't fit your agenda where you pretend that it's not all about Eli and that you haven't been pouting like a petulant brat all day?
Are you being serious? You have seemed fairly distressed for much of the day today.
Unless you think that telling your fellow fans that they can stop watching... wait a second, didn't you say you'd stop watching if the Giants pulled Eli for Jones because it would represent a tank job?
Maybe it's time for you to be honest about that.
Reading back through I forgot how many were so steadfast that we really had no other choice but to keep Eli. And that the decision was actually the best decision, too.
Just sit back, join the "In Dave We Trust" crew and the future will never be brighter...
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Nobody said it’s an illegitimate argument, just that there’s another side to it bc they were going to have a veteran qb on the roster in March. Calling it a $20m waste is hyperbole bc the net difference is a lot closer to $10m. And that’s with an inferior player at qb like Fitzpatrick.
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What do you mean "it's not like it's future money saved"? That's precisely what it is. You can roll over unused cap space to the following season, so it absolutely would have been future money saved. And it might have made it unnecessary for them to restructure Solder's contract, which would also be future money saved.
As for Eli being a mentor, that remains to be seen - he's never had to be one before, and the cast of developmental QBs that have come through the doors behind him haven't been cause for anyone to claim that Eli possesses these great mentoring skills. He's always been a leader by example - we'll see now if that's a role that can happen from the sidelines.
The entire premise of why people wanted Eli cut in March was to use the money elsewhere. Not punt it to next year when they are already going to have a lot more money free than good players to spend it on.
And yeah, "Eli has never had to be a mentor before", except for the half dozen guys he's helped mentor who speak glowingly of him having been the first person to call them after they were drafted, to then spending his time helping them understand how to play QB in the NFL from Rhett Bomar to Davis Webb - who was literally conveying to Darnold last year things he learned from Eli. Jets' Davis Webb passing along tips to Sam Darnold that he learned from Eli Manning - ( New Window )
It doesn't matter what the context was in March. The fact is, it absolutely could be saved for the future, especially when they just had to restructure Solder's contract to have room for in-season moves.
And as for Eli being such a great mentor, you'll have to remind me which of the developmental QBs that were mentored by him ever went on to start a single NFL game? Just one start - can you name any of those QBs who were so well mentored that they even started one NFL game after their time with Eli? Surely at least one of them must have had even a little bit of run somewhere else after being so well mentored, right?
I'm not saying he'll be a bad mentor, I'm just saying we have absolutely nothing to confirm that he's a good one. People speaking glowingly about someone is somewhat meaningless when there's literally zero results to back that up.
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But generally discussion isn’t painful. Or at least, for most of us, not emotionally distressful.
Are you being serious? You have seemed fairly distressed for much of the day today.
Unless you think that telling your fellow fans that they can stop watching... wait a second, didn't you say you'd stop watching if the Giants pulled Eli for Jones because it would represent a tank job?
Maybe it's time for you to be honest about that.
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Player salaries/bonuses/etc are evaluated and analyzed all the time. In the hard cap NFL, resources are tightly controlled. Every dollar you spend on one player is a dollar you can't spend on another.
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Nobody said it’s an illegitimate argument, just that there’s another side to it bc they were going to have a veteran qb on the roster in March. Calling it a $20m waste is hyperbole bc the net difference is a lot closer to $10m. And that’s with an inferior player at qb like Fitzpatrick.
The inferiority is basically irrelevant considering it wound up being a 2-game gig.
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It’s just that it’s theirs and not yours.
Is it easier if we focus on how they choose to use their cap room rather than their actual dollars? Since that actually has an impact on the competitiveness of the team we root for and all. Would that be an acceptable topic for you, Bill, or is it another fucking myth because it doesn't fit your agenda where you pretend that it's not all about Eli and that you haven't been pouting like a petulant brat all day?
I’m actually pretty sanguine about it. Not too bothered by the switch but rather by people claiming that he’s the root cause for having to be switched. He’s not the reason we’re 0-2.
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In comment 14585094 Bill L said:
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But generally discussion isn’t painful. Or at least, for most of us, not emotionally distressful.
Are you being serious? You have seemed fairly distressed for much of the day today.
Unless you think that telling your fellow fans that they can stop watching... wait a second, didn't you say you'd stop watching if the Giants pulled Eli for Jones because it would represent a tank job?
Maybe it's time for you to be honest about that.
can you point to where I ever said I would stop watching? I’m curious to see where I said that.
Actually, you said you'd stop being a fan.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 14584924 Bill L said:
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It’s just that it’s theirs and not yours.
Is it easier if we focus on how they choose to use their cap room rather than their actual dollars? Since that actually has an impact on the competitiveness of the team we root for and all. Would that be an acceptable topic for you, Bill, or is it another fucking myth because it doesn't fit your agenda where you pretend that it's not all about Eli and that you haven't been pouting like a petulant brat all day?
I’m actually pretty sanguine about it. Not too bothered by the switch but rather by people claiming that he’s the root cause for having to be switched. He’s not the reason we’re 0-2.
Is it hard to understand that no one is saying he's the root cause, they're just saying that the team isn't good enough to waste time trying to chase past glory when they have their presumed successor waiting in the wings?
It's not that it's Eli's fault. It's that Eli's play is entirely irrelevant if the team isn't good enough to compete this year.
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Player salaries/bonuses/etc are evaluated and analyzed all the time. In the hard cap NFL, resources are tightly controlled. Every dollar you spend on one player is a dollar you can't spend on another.
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Nobody said it’s an illegitimate argument, just that there’s another side to it bc they were going to have a veteran qb on the roster in March. Calling it a $20m waste is hyperbole bc the net difference is a lot closer to $10m. And that’s with an inferior player at qb like Fitzpatrick.
Saving 10M and sparing Manning the indignity of being benched.
And as an added bonus, the worst case scenario of an inferior player like Fitzpatrick would have landed the Giants ... exactly where they are right now.
It doesn't matter what the context was in March. The fact is, it absolutely could be saved for the future, especially when they just had to restructure Solder's contract to have room for in-season moves.
And as for Eli being such a great mentor, you'll have to remind me which of the developmental QBs that were mentored by him ever went on to start a single NFL game? Just one start - can you name any of those QBs who were so well mentored that they even started one NFL game after their time with Eli? Surely at least one of them must have had even a little bit of run somewhere else after being so well mentored, right?
I'm not saying he'll be a bad mentor, I'm just saying we have absolutely nothing to confirm that he's a good one. People speaking glowingly about someone is somewhat meaningless when there's literally zero results to back that up.
You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good teammate vs. a scout.
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It doesn't matter what the context was in March. The fact is, it absolutely could be saved for the future, especially when they just had to restructure Solder's contract to have room for in-season moves.
And as for Eli being such a great mentor, you'll have to remind me which of the developmental QBs that were mentored by him ever went on to start a single NFL game? Just one start - can you name any of those QBs who were so well mentored that they even started one NFL game after their time with Eli? Surely at least one of them must have had even a little bit of run somewhere else after being so well mentored, right?
I'm not saying he'll be a bad mentor, I'm just saying we have absolutely nothing to confirm that he's a good one. People speaking glowingly about someone is somewhat meaningless when there's literally zero results to back that up.
You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good teammate vs. a scout.
No, you seem to be confusing guys saying they learned a lot from Eli with any of them ever actually benefitting from that in a way that would confirm that they're right.
I don't know why anyone just assumes that Eli will be a good mentor when it's something that he's never had to do in his career, and by his own admission he even said that it wasn't his job to be a mentor. He led by example more than anything else - we genuinely have no idea how that will translate when he's QB2. We can make some loose assumptions because we know Eli is both cerebral and classy, and the consummate team player, and those are traits that SHOULD make him a good mentor.
I'm just saying, we've never seem him actually do it, and none of the young QBs who came in behind him ever amounted to anything at all, so we don't even know how much they learned other than them saying they learned a lot. But maybe the reason why they all flunked out of the league is that they don't really know what "a lot" means.
Saving 10M and sparing Manning the indignity of being benched.
And as an added bonus, the worst case scenario of an inferior player like Fitzpatrick would have landed the Giants ... exactly where they are right now.
I think it would have been more of an indignity to cut him, replace him with an inferior player, and go to another team and get benched/replaced there. Here he got a chance to start and stay in if he won. I'm not so sure he would have gotten that chance elsewhere. And they even managed to finally fix the OL.
You are 100% right that as it turned out the results on the field would have been exactly the same with Fitz. The team would be 0-2 with Jones coming in (or he'd have been in earlier). But the decision had to get made in March and I honestly think if we were hoping to draft a 1st rd QB Eli was probably the best player to bring into the season for both the role of mentor and opening the season with any semblance of competitiveness. Money aside at this moment I'd still rather have Eli in the room getting Jones ready than any of the alternatives.
Money factored in saving $10m is obviously better than not saving $10m but you know what $10m got us in FA? Golden Tate. I like Golden Tate and would have no issue adding another player like him but the same way his absence isn't the reason we are 0-2 I'm not going to act like we'd have been able to magically find someone else who would have. This offseason we are already going to have more money to spend than good players available to spend on so I just don't view it as a big enough factor to influence decision. If you told me that adding a multi-year impact player like CJ Mosley was an option in March if we had more room that's different but I don't think that was the case. He got 17m AAV and 51m guaranteed.
They did just make it to the conference finals last season. Maybe their way is working a little bit better than the Giants' steadfast refusal to rebuild in earnest until this year.
Eli should have been cut after with reese and mcadoo but fans kept making excuses and so did ownership.
Sadness for Eli to me is 4 years to late. It would mean a whole lot more to me 4 years ago then today when he should have been cut years ago.
Move on, the Giants have~
[quote] this year and therefore was 100% behind retaining him as the starter. I think it was the right decision that simply didn't work out. They will have a huge cap savings after the season as a result. [/quote
Based on what did you think that.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
Agree but maybe splitting time with Eli there vs taking all of those snaps.
That being said.. I am sure he has had time to work with the starters
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Is Jones could have been practicing with the 1s all summer.
Agree but maybe splitting time with Eli there vs taking all of those snaps.
That being said.. I am sure he has had time to work with the starters
Deep into camp he had not yet worked with the ones
I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that today is the first time he hands the ball of to Barkley. Even if it’s not, he hasn’t done a ton with him or shep.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
In fairness, people weren't suggesting that the Giants leave the cupboard bare, they were merely saying that a relatively cheap replacement level QB would be an adequate bridge - and they were saying it then, so it's not entirely hindsight. It's just that they weren't proven correct until now (because we could be 0-2 with literally any QB).
I totally understand why the Giants did what they did, but it does present a scenario that's uneasy to reconcile as a fan: it seems like they once again overestimated their talent level and thought the roster could compete (much like last year) when they could have further committed to the rebuild. For a franchise with a history of half measures, it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see them operate differently or at least have better results.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
I don't believe anyone advocated for the scenario you are describing. Many, including myself questioned if Manning's play and future was much different than a journeyman, and if one could be had at 7M as they went into the draft, why pay Manning 23M.
That turned out to be true.
The league at large new the Giants were looking for a QB in the draft whether their QB was Fitzpatrick-like character or Manning. According to the GM himself he had to act fast to get Jones.
As it turns out, fast-forward to today, the only difference between cutting Manning and not was 16M dollars.
As if we have our hands on the cash!
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and when they paid Eli the roster bonus, they still did not draft anyone yet. Eli was the QB... period. Looking back now with Jones in the picture is the ultimate in hindsight 20-20.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
I don't believe anyone advocated for the scenario you are describing. Many, including myself questioned if Manning's play and future was much different than a journeyman, and if one could be had at 7M as they went into the draft, why pay Manning 23M.
That turned out to be true.
The league at large new the Giants were looking for a QB in the draft whether their QB was Fitzpatrick-like character or Manning. According to the GM himself he had to act fast to get Jones.
As it turns out, fast-forward to today, the only difference between cutting Manning and not was 16M dollars.
I said yesterday that I'm pretty sanguine about the change. It is what it is. From an ethical perspective, I do have difficulty swallowing the giving up on the season with the idea that a win in 2020 carries more weight than a win in 2019 but I will work my way through that.
Having said that, the part that does make me (maybe too much so) emotional is the scapegoating part. I dispute that Eli played these first two games at a journeyman level. He made some quality throws, he missed some throws. He played against arguably the best pass defense in the league and, in the first game, a top 5 overall defense. He had zero NFL quality wide-receivers. And, for the most part, he played having to make up ground with a large deficit. I don't think anyone has sufficient information to say that it's journeyman level or not.
So far this year Buccanon has 0 tackles and according to 1 site has only played 4 snaps and Daryl Williams has supposedly not looked good in his return from knee surgery and PFF has him worse than Remmers to this point.
I'd still take either guy on this roster right now because again, something is always better than nothing and both of them have potential, but I find it extremely unlikely there would be any meaningful difference from whatever the extra money went towards (especially in the form of 1 year deals).
free agency is what it is - most of the time you are overpaying for guys past their prime or with some other defect. Especially if they are only getting 1 year deals. I'm not saying FA is useless or the cap isn't important - both are, but when we are talking about the very specific parameters of a guy with just 1 year left on his deal and slim pickings last March when the decision had to get made, the impact of what could have been is being dramatically overstated.
there's hypocrisy and second guessing no matter what gets done bc just as half of the fanbase thinks they should have cut Eli to save money half thinks spending money to sign Golden Tate was a disaster, and you can bet there's overlap between the 2 groups.
The point isn't really whether Eli played at a journeyman level or not - that part is 100% irrelevant. The point is that for a 2-game gig that ended up 0-2, even the cheapest, least talented journeyman would still have gotten us to 0-2. You don't have to blame Eli to accept that he just couldn't overcome the team that surrounded him.
Ironically, we may actually have that cheapest, least talented journeyman on the roster already, but that's a separate conversation entirely.
As if we have our hands on the cash!
Don't be obtuse. How about "we" as in we are discussing the way the team we follow chooses to manage their salary cap?
The whole "it's not your money" angle is so fucking juvenile. It's a salary cap league. The dollars matter in terms of the quality of the roster. That's why people are discussing it, not because anyone honestly believes they're the ones signing the players' checks.
^^^^ THIS!!!
I've said this before, and I find it somewhat surprising that people don't get it, but it seems to be an undeniable fact that: Understanding the ramifications of good or bad salary cap management is a football IQ test.
That said, I'm not sure that there were good alternatives to Eli that would have cost significantly less against the cap. At least Eli was just 1 year.
Signing Beckham to trade him... Colossally stupid.
There was a point in the off-season where the Giants were in a position to have about $95 million available against the cap for the 2020 season. The team has burned down $35 million of that, and I'm not sure what was gotten for it...
Golden Tate
Marcus Golden
Antoine Bethea
A Solder restructure
Rid ourselves of Beckham
Rid ourselves of Vernon
Doesn't seem like $35 million in value to me. But what the hell do I know.
The Giants have basically done what people asked them to do.
- Turned over the roster and jettisoned the malcontents
- Drafted Eli's successor and am giving him real action this season
- Shored up the OL
Now, the discussion boils down to how they did it and the timeline they've used. And you still have the usual suspects saying Gettleman needs to be fired for this travesty - a travesty they wanted rectified and that he's taken steps to do just that.
But the way this place works oftentimes is that he just can't be given props. He paid too much for Eli, traded Beckham and Vernon (who people couldn't wait to run out of town), and now Jones is the starter in Week 3, meaning we thought we could compete this year and wasted a whole 6 weeks of Jones gaining "experience".
So he's basically done what people asked - just not the exact way they'd have liked.
A real tough crowd to please.
The Giants have basically done what people asked them to do.
- Turned over the roster and jettisoned the malcontents
- Drafted Eli's successor and am giving him real action this season
- Shored up the OL
Now, the discussion boils down to how they did it and the timeline they've used. And you still have the usual suspects saying Gettleman needs to be fired for this travesty - a travesty they wanted rectified and that he's taken steps to do just that.
But the way this place works oftentimes is that he just can't be given props. He paid too much for Eli, traded Beckham and Vernon (who people couldn't wait to run out of town), and now Jones is the starter in Week 3, meaning we thought we could compete this year and wasted a whole 6 weeks of Jones gaining "experience".
So he's basically done what people asked - just not the exact way they'd have liked.
A real tough crowd to please.
Been saying that for weeks. Can't win. If you start a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players, it will be ugly to start. Let's see what happens by mid-season. Do they improve(I thought there was slight improvement against Buffalo)? Or do they continue to look bad?
Everyone knows where Eli’s skill level currently is. Why bring him back and subject him to this season on a bunch of hopes and prayers that this team could compete?
Whatever, what’s done is done.
If Jones is a star, he will be looked upon fondly.
If he busts, he will be run out of town.
Odds are Jones will be somewhere in the middle and we will continue to argue over stuff like this for the foreseeable future.
The Giants have basically done what people asked them to do.
- Turned over the roster and jettisoned the malcontents
- Drafted Eli's successor and am giving him real action this season
- Shored up the OL
Now, the discussion boils down to how they did it and the timeline they've used. And you still have the usual suspects saying Gettleman needs to be fired for this travesty - a travesty they wanted rectified and that he's taken steps to do just that.
But the way this place works oftentimes is that he just can't be given props. He paid too much for Eli, traded Beckham and Vernon (who people couldn't wait to run out of town), and now Jones is the starter in Week 3, meaning we thought we could compete this year and wasted a whole 6 weeks of Jones gaining "experience".
So he's basically done what people asked - just not the exact way they'd have liked.
A real tough crowd to please.
Listing everything he did and then assuming it's what "people wanted" is a lite self fulfilling.
Maybe it's more accurate to say some people wanted some combination of those things, and others wanted few or none of them.
I generally like what Gettleman has done, but I also think his mistakes are real head scratchers.
As a fan with basically no skills in football management and limited knowledge, it's frustrating to be right about this. This one was a clear as day call.
that is terrible business
Draft picks are valuable because they are free. If you have to pay 16-20 mil for them you might as well use that money to sign a guy who you know can play.
We could have easily gotten a 1st round pick for OBJ in the summer of 2018. Is 20 mil good value for peppers and a 3?
A GM's job involves a good bit of foresight, and so far DG is showing to be lacking in that department.
You have to look at the options. If you don't sign him, you can lose him for nothing. If he isn't signed and holds out, you get pennies on the dollar for him.
If you sign him and then trade him, you can get an adequate return.
Now, do I think that was the intention when he was signed? not exactly. But I do think that the brass knew a signed Beckham would be easier and return more than an unsigned OBJ who could be a wild card.
But you'd swear signing him was a colossal mistake
A GM's job involves a good bit of foresight, and so far DG is showing to be lacking in that department.
But ron, we got better value for Beckham with him being signed. What do you think he gets if he holds out or worse yet, played another year and left for nothing?
I think they'd be screaming, "But we could have gotten a 1st rounder and a player for him!!"
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OBJ's behavior last year was not hard to see coming. Personally I dont think the stuff that is verified is all that bad but understand why others think it is. The unverified stuff is a bit more concerning but I'm not gonna kill a guy for putting himself on the shelf with an injury he could maybe play through in a lost season.
A GM's job involves a good bit of foresight, and so far DG is showing to be lacking in that department.
But ron, we got better value for Beckham with him being signed. What do you think he gets if he holds out or worse yet, played another year and left for nothing?
I disagree but its all conjecture. I think we could have easily gotten a 1 for him before signing him and that would have been a much better deal than a 1, 3, peppers and 20 mil out the door.
And unless you think he signed him with the exact purpose of trading him, I don't see how you can not call it a mistake or lack or foresight.
But as I said, I don't think we will see eye to eye on this one and thats fine.
Gettleman has in effect chosen the draft as a priority. He sold JPP and Beckham for draft picks, to contribute to a scenario where he's had four first round picks and eight top 100 picks in the last 2 years.
The price he's paid is dead money, and it's been nontrivial - 70M over the last two years.
Those 8 picks have to become the foundation of the next championship window, if not, yikes.
but nothing changed, Obj was in 2018 who he has been his entire career
If you are of the belief we weren't going to compete, then just ridding the team of players who wouldn't contend and who absorbed a ton of cap is still a direction he likely had to take.
Even if Gettleman took the dead money to be in a much better cap situation - we have a much more fluid method for building the roster.
If the majority of those picks turn out to be solid players with the additions coming from the cap room we will have available, we will be a better team. A much better team.
And a lot of that rests with Jones.
Had they dealt OBJ off his surgery year without a contract they would have gotten less for him in picks and had Gettleman sold him low without ever playing a game during his tenure it would have been moronic.
Hopefully that will pay off next season, and they have a plan for that money.
He'll be lucky to last the season there, and they might actually be worse than us.
When he can put up two pretty bad performances and people see it as an improvement, that's saying a lot.
He'll be lucky to last the season there, and they might actually be worse than us.
When he can put up two pretty bad performances and people see it as an improvement, that's saying a lot.
That's fair - I know week 1 he got some positive reviews, I haven't followed him closely but you are right, for him an improvement is not being on the backpages as the reason his team lost which is a very low bar.
For the average player, that was terrible - but I think most people saw washington with a 17-0 lead and translated that into meaning flowers was good.
If you are of the belief we weren't going to compete, then just ridding the team of players who wouldn't contend and who absorbed a ton of cap is still a direction he likely had to take.
You seem to take issue with people going hard in the paint on Gettleman, but this statement is exactly why many are finding fault with him (forgive me for cropping, I don't think doing so twists your words and it certainly isn't my intention to do so).
Eli fits the exact description, but he got a pass. It was a sub-optimal path given what he was doing elsewhere.
Replacing a QB in a transition is much more important than the other moves that have been made. I know people don't like the timing and they rail about the cap hit this season, but cutting eli still had consequences to the cap as well, and if Jones was or is terrible, that isn't a great plan to have in place either.
People are like "We should have started Lauletta or a $7M retread and we could have lost with them just as easily. While that might be true, it doesn't send a very good message.
Replacing a QB in a transition is much more important than the other moves that have been made. I know people don't like the timing and they rail about the cap hit this season, but cutting eli still had consequences to the cap as well, and if Jones was or is terrible, that isn't a great plan to have in place either.
People are like "We should have started Lauletta or a $7M retread and we could have lost with them just as easily. While that might be true, it doesn't send a very good message.
I personally think the stuff about 'the message' is highly overplayed relative to the $17M difference (yes, ostensibly $17M comes down if you pay a cheap replacement, but it also goes back up when you then pass on the Golden Tates and Antoine Betheas of the world).
Given the quick hook, which I do absolutely give them credit for as you suggest, whatever bad message may have been case is quickly rectified by getting the exciting, highly-drafted rookie on the field and show that the upswing is starting in earnest.
Definitely a matter of opinion, I just don't see how it's fair to act like those finding significant fault with the approach are out-of-line or absurd.
You have to look at the options. If you don't sign him, you can lose him for nothing. If he isn't signed and holds out, you get pennies on the dollar for him.
If you sign him and then trade him, you can get an adequate return.
Now, do I think that was the intention when he was signed? not exactly. But I do think that the brass knew a signed Beckham would be easier and return more than an unsigned OBJ who could be a wild card.
But you'd swear signing him was a colossal mistake
That's because signing him was a colossal mistake. Instead of signing him, how about trading him after 2017? We've already heard he wanted to do it but was talked out of it by Shurmur.
The most frustrating aspect of BBI is the posters who will support the Giants' decision making even when it clearly sucks.
The idea that he would just "walk" ignores the significant leverage the Giants had. He had one more year on his contract plus the franchise tag.
If you want to swing your dick around do it in private in negotiations, don't sign a guy, give them much more significant leverage then swing your dick around in public and think he will fall in line then.
Reese and Abrams made an absolute mess of the cap. Gettleman has been doing the right thing by taking all those cap hits and getting them off the books.
I think the quality of players taken in the draft has improved dramatically under DG.
If you look at my posts, I have often stated that my expectations are low. I expected to lose this year, and while I expect improvement next year, I doubt it will be a playoff team even then. And that would be ok if everything else was going right.
However, I do believe that DG is starting to create his own mess the cap. While I understand that it's hard to part with a talent like Beckham, there were plenty of signs that signing him was a bad idea. There was significant internal discord about that signing as it turns out, and the team knew a lot more about him that we did. Some of that stuff has now leaked out. Given what they knew, they should have traded him before signing him. I'm sure there was a way to make it happen. Get him on the field in preseason, let people see that he was ready to play, and move him and let the new team sign him (the return would have been fine). Signing Golden, Martin, Olgetree, Tate, Omameh, Stewart, Bethea, and Solder have all had negative cap consequences and have not brought a return on investment. The team still sucks.
Those signings are indicative of a lack of commitment and focus on the rebuild. They want to sell us all that the team can win now by making these signings, when really they can't. The team can lose just as well without any of those guys and their cap hits. If it were not for these bad contracts the Giants would have a lot more money against the cap next year. And instead of restructuring Solder and taking cap from the future, they could be rolling over cap money from this year to next. Had the team focused on the rebuild and committed to it, the team would be in better shape going forward. Instead they keep taking half measures and that is on DG.
I won't kill DG & the the rest of management for Eli, I agree with you that cutting him would be a bad message. He has been the leader of this team for 15 years, he has brought 2 SBs, he works hard, he is a solid citizen. There has to be some reward for all that, he has earned the right to play out this contract. But of course, this is the last year for him, no consideration to resigning.
We will see if Jones is the real deal.
I don't think he behaved as if the team was rebuilding going into last year. A huge flaw in self-scouting, in my view. I see the full tear-down this year. But I don't see the OL as 'fixed' - it isn't a good unit yet and a ton of resources have been thrown at it. I don't see what DG has done well as GM and see a lot of shit.
Hopefully that will pay off next season, and they have a plan for that money.
Let's hope so. Let's also keep in mind that DG already pissed away a third of the cap space we could have had next offseason with contracts handed out, restructured, or traded away this year.
I understand that his goal (or maybe his mandate) is to build the team to compete while he rebuilds the roster's core. Flying the plane while you're building it is not easy, of course. And I hope that once DG has his foundation built that we start to see some more prudent cap management, but until we see that, I see nothing wrong with some level of skepticism.
A lot of the same cap management missteps that we're seeing under Gettleman were also regular occurrences under Reese. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I think Abrams' approach to the cap leaves quite a bit of room for improvement.
Overall, the management of the cap hasn't been good, and the only thing we know is that the group of them has failed.
I personally suspect that much of it has to do with the 'mandate' that you hinted at. There's little doubt in my mind that some willingness from the top to lean into the turn 2-3 seasons ago would have us further along the road at this point.
I think FMiC had reservations about Solder...?
In the end, if the GM can't sell the owner on his vision. Then that's on the GM.
In the end, if the GM can't sell the owner on his vision. Then that's on the GM.
This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
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But in the end, I think Mara can be sold on a course of action. He's not Snyder.
In the end, if the GM can't sell the owner on his vision. Then that's on the GM.
This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
Agree 100% with Mcl here and am pretty much with Terps here as well but holding out hope it’s not true so we don’t have to go through another tear down in a couple years.
And in our case, the compete thing was a colossal misstep so take the heat...
This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
Here's the problem. While I can't prove it beyond circumstantial evidence, I believe DG and PS were hired largely because they sold Mara on their pro-Eli-ness. Which I think was exactly what Mara wanted to here. So they sort of boxed themselves in.
Hell, I'd argue this decision to sit Eli was possibly Mara's because Eli's record hit the 500 mark. And with the way the season is spiraling downward, keeping it at 500 was likely 0%.
Something to chew on...
The idea that he would just "walk" ignores the significant leverage the Giants had. He had one more year on his contract plus the franchise tag.
If you want to swing your dick around do it in private in negotiations, don't sign a guy, give them much more significant leverage then swing your dick around in public and think he will fall in line then.
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This is a critical concept, particularly when it comes to Eli. If Mara was bent on keeping Eli, then it was incumbent on Gettleman and Shurmur to convince him why that was a bad idea. Mara isn't a bad guy, nor is he stupid. I think he could be convinced by a well reasoned argument.
Gettleman and Shurmur failed to do that. Mara's failure has been in surrounding himself with people ill-equipped to construct and lead a team in the modern NFL.
Here's the problem. While I can't prove it beyond circumstantial evidence, I believe DG and PS were hired largely because they sold Mara on their pro-Eli-ness. Which I think was exactly what Mara wanted to here. So they sort of boxed themselves in.
Hell, I'd argue this decision to sit Eli was possibly Mara's because Eli's record hit the 500 mark. And with the way the season is spiraling downward, keeping it at 500 was likely 0%.
Something to chew on...
I believe this is correct. And while I know you feel that the team should have parted ways with Manning years ago, I don't think that keeping Manning has been the problem. Perhaps keeping him is a symptom, but not the disease. And if the only manifestation of the disease was keeping Manning, the team would be alright. Had the team walked away from Reese and Coughlin at the same time. Had the team hired a real GM and coach to follow them, had the team committed themselves to rebuilding 4 years ago, the rebuild would be nearly complete. With or without Eli.
Instead, we got 1 disastrous half measure after another. Just one more patch, and the Giants can compete. The Giants have need much more than just a patch job for 7 years. Instead we have watched worse and worse football while the team slowly and inevitably disintegrated. And even this year, when the Giants are still in the bottom 5 in the league, there was talk of playoffs, and more bad contracts, more half measures.
So while I won't say that Eli is the player that he was in 2011, I don't think he or his contract is what held this team back. Its the larger lack of vision and commitment.
You want to be the highest paid WR in the league? Great.
If you are fined by the league X times we can recoup bonus money
If you publicly air problems with your teammates we can recoup bonus money
This is what people mean by having a plan and managing a situation. They knew who OBJ was. Then you act like it BECAME untenable when he just acted like he always has? Give me a break.
I've said Gettleman has made many mistakes. On threads you've participated on.
- Not evaluating Omameah or Stewart correctly and signing them to contract above their street value
- Drafting Sam Beal (but that's more because I don't like any supplemental draft picks)
- Signing Golden Tate
Given the moves he made with Snacks, JPP, OV, Apple, Hart and Flowers, with the cap in mind and improving the locker room, I actually don't have a problem with either the Solder or Ogletree moves.
But then again - I didn't sharpen my pitchfork and have it ready because of the way he was hired, and I also saw the positive impact he had in Carolina and the negative impact his departure has had.
Had they dealt OBJ off his surgery year without a contract they would have gotten less for him in picks and had Gettleman sold him low without ever playing a game during his tenure it would have been moronic.
yeah.. poeple don't understand these things. Not to mention they may have actually wanted to keep OBJ until OBJ made it clear that he did not want to be here the moment after he got his new contract.
Vernon is on Reese, but Beckham ($16M) is on Gettleman and Eli ($23M) could have been cut to save $17M prior to March.
None of this is hindsight.
OBJ and Eli are absolutely hindsight. If you cannot see why, then you should find a forum for needlepoint or something.
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Can you list one decision that Gettleman made that you think was a mistake. Just 1.
I've said Gettleman has made many mistakes. On threads you've participated on.
- Not evaluating Omameah or Stewart correctly and signing them to contract above their street value
- Drafting Sam Beal (but that's more because I don't like any supplemental draft picks)
- Signing Golden Tate
Given the moves he made with Snacks, JPP, OV, Apple, Hart and Flowers, with the cap in mind and improving the locker room, I actually don't have a problem with either the Solder or Ogletree moves.
But then again - I didn't sharpen my pitchfork and have it ready because of the way he was hired, and I also saw the positive impact he had in Carolina and the negative impact his departure has had.
Thanks
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25% of the $188M salary cap.
Vernon is on Reese, but Beckham ($16M) is on Gettleman and Eli ($23M) could have been cut to save $17M prior to March.
None of this is hindsight.
OBJ and Eli are absolutely hindsight. If you cannot see why, then you should find a forum for needlepoint or something.
Hindsight?
I was here screaming to the heavens that those were all mistakes months before they happened...not because I'm clairvoyant, but because the logic was plain to see at the time for anyone not wearing blue glasses.
Beckham had a broken leg with no reported ligament or muscle damage. He was always going to recover. I firmly believe with 3 years of team control he could have been dealt straight up for a first round pick to the 9ers.
Many would have hated it, but it would have been the right move. Mike McGlinchey and 22M in my view was better than what they got.