That is not a rhetorical question, that is a legitimate one that I am not sure of the correct answer. But, if so and if this was my money, I would be angry at DG and PS. Can someone please remind me, we owed Eli only 5 million if we cut him after last year, am I right about that?
What if he does that with Jones and then starts Eli the following game?
"Well I guess all you guys might not ask me to start Daniel for a while after that debacle..."
What if he does that with Jones and then starts Eli the following game?
"Well I guess all you guys might not ask me to start Daniel for a while after that debacle..."
That was a fireable offense.
That Christian character is pretty sassy (and totally right ;)
Your choice is to watch or not watch the product.
That’s the limit for you.
Your choice is to watch or not watch the product.
That’s the limit for you.
Ah good. It’s great when we talk another analytics that the Giants are strapped for cash but when it’s needed to make a point about ignoring their mistakes they have the money to burn it in the streets
Interesting read. Some people are so off base it is funny in retrospect.
Mostly people who are more vastly overpaid than Eli; or at least offer less in return for their hourly.
What do you mean "it's not like it's future money saved"? That's precisely what it is. You can roll over unused cap space to the following season, so it absolutely would have been future money saved. And it might have made it unnecessary for them to restructure Solder's contract, which would also be future money saved.
As for Eli being a mentor, that remains to be seen - he's never had to be one before, and the cast of developmental QBs that have come through the doors behind him haven't been cause for anyone to claim that Eli possesses these great mentoring skills. He's always been a leader by example - we'll see now if that's a role that can happen from the sidelines.
The entire premise of why people wanted Eli cut in March was to use the money elsewhere. Not punt it to next year when they are already going to have a lot more money free than good players to spend it on.
And yeah, "Eli has never had to be a mentor before", except for the half dozen guys he's helped mentor who speak glowingly of him having been the first person to call them after they were drafted, to then spending his time helping them understand how to play QB in the NFL from Rhett Bomar to Davis Webb - who was literally conveying to Darnold last year things he learned from Eli.
Jets' Davis Webb passing along tips to Sam Darnold that he learned from Eli Manning - ( New Window )
But remember, this also comes from the crew who brought you the 4th fewest dollars on the field in the NFL this year, $60M total on the defensive side of the ball, 8 wins the last 2 years, and 1 winning season since the 2nd Oabama adminstration.
Or stop discussing the team? It's purposeless. Plus you're not really changing anything.
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Is it easier if we focus on how they choose to use their cap room rather than their actual dollars? Since that actually has an impact on the competitiveness of the team we root for and all. Would that be an acceptable topic for you, Bill, or is it another fucking myth because it doesn't fit your agenda where you pretend that it's not all about Eli and that you haven't been pouting like a petulant brat all day?
Are you being serious? You have seemed fairly distressed for much of the day today.
Unless you think that telling your fellow fans that they can stop watching... wait a second, didn't you say you'd stop watching if the Giants pulled Eli for Jones because it would represent a tank job?
Maybe it's time for you to be honest about that.
Reading back through I forgot how many were so steadfast that we really had no other choice but to keep Eli. And that the decision was actually the best decision, too.
Just sit back, join the "In Dave We Trust" crew and the future will never be brighter...
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Nobody said it’s an illegitimate argument, just that there’s another side to it bc they were going to have a veteran qb on the roster in March. Calling it a $20m waste is hyperbole bc the net difference is a lot closer to $10m. And that’s with an inferior player at qb like Fitzpatrick.
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What do you mean "it's not like it's future money saved"? That's precisely what it is. You can roll over unused cap space to the following season, so it absolutely would have been future money saved. And it might have made it unnecessary for them to restructure Solder's contract, which would also be future money saved.
As for Eli being a mentor, that remains to be seen - he's never had to be one before, and the cast of developmental QBs that have come through the doors behind him haven't been cause for anyone to claim that Eli possesses these great mentoring skills. He's always been a leader by example - we'll see now if that's a role that can happen from the sidelines.
The entire premise of why people wanted Eli cut in March was to use the money elsewhere. Not punt it to next year when they are already going to have a lot more money free than good players to spend it on.
And yeah, "Eli has never had to be a mentor before", except for the half dozen guys he's helped mentor who speak glowingly of him having been the first person to call them after they were drafted, to then spending his time helping them understand how to play QB in the NFL from Rhett Bomar to Davis Webb - who was literally conveying to Darnold last year things he learned from Eli. Jets' Davis Webb passing along tips to Sam Darnold that he learned from Eli Manning - ( New Window )
It doesn't matter what the context was in March. The fact is, it absolutely could be saved for the future, especially when they just had to restructure Solder's contract to have room for in-season moves.
And as for Eli being such a great mentor, you'll have to remind me which of the developmental QBs that were mentored by him ever went on to start a single NFL game? Just one start - can you name any of those QBs who were so well mentored that they even started one NFL game after their time with Eli? Surely at least one of them must have had even a little bit of run somewhere else after being so well mentored, right?
I'm not saying he'll be a bad mentor, I'm just saying we have absolutely nothing to confirm that he's a good one. People speaking glowingly about someone is somewhat meaningless when there's literally zero results to back that up.
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But generally discussion isn’t painful. Or at least, for most of us, not emotionally distressful.
Are you being serious? You have seemed fairly distressed for much of the day today.
Unless you think that telling your fellow fans that they can stop watching... wait a second, didn't you say you'd stop watching if the Giants pulled Eli for Jones because it would represent a tank job?
Maybe it's time for you to be honest about that.
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Player salaries/bonuses/etc are evaluated and analyzed all the time. In the hard cap NFL, resources are tightly controlled. Every dollar you spend on one player is a dollar you can't spend on another.
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Nobody said it’s an illegitimate argument, just that there’s another side to it bc they were going to have a veteran qb on the roster in March. Calling it a $20m waste is hyperbole bc the net difference is a lot closer to $10m. And that’s with an inferior player at qb like Fitzpatrick.
The inferiority is basically irrelevant considering it wound up being a 2-game gig.
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It’s just that it’s theirs and not yours.
Is it easier if we focus on how they choose to use their cap room rather than their actual dollars? Since that actually has an impact on the competitiveness of the team we root for and all. Would that be an acceptable topic for you, Bill, or is it another fucking myth because it doesn't fit your agenda where you pretend that it's not all about Eli and that you haven't been pouting like a petulant brat all day?
I’m actually pretty sanguine about it. Not too bothered by the switch but rather by people claiming that he’s the root cause for having to be switched. He’s not the reason we’re 0-2.
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In comment 14585094 Bill L said:
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But generally discussion isn’t painful. Or at least, for most of us, not emotionally distressful.
Are you being serious? You have seemed fairly distressed for much of the day today.
Unless you think that telling your fellow fans that they can stop watching... wait a second, didn't you say you'd stop watching if the Giants pulled Eli for Jones because it would represent a tank job?
Maybe it's time for you to be honest about that.
can you point to where I ever said I would stop watching? I’m curious to see where I said that.
Actually, you said you'd stop being a fan.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 14584924 Bill L said:
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It’s just that it’s theirs and not yours.
Is it easier if we focus on how they choose to use their cap room rather than their actual dollars? Since that actually has an impact on the competitiveness of the team we root for and all. Would that be an acceptable topic for you, Bill, or is it another fucking myth because it doesn't fit your agenda where you pretend that it's not all about Eli and that you haven't been pouting like a petulant brat all day?
I’m actually pretty sanguine about it. Not too bothered by the switch but rather by people claiming that he’s the root cause for having to be switched. He’s not the reason we’re 0-2.
Is it hard to understand that no one is saying he's the root cause, they're just saying that the team isn't good enough to waste time trying to chase past glory when they have their presumed successor waiting in the wings?
It's not that it's Eli's fault. It's that Eli's play is entirely irrelevant if the team isn't good enough to compete this year.
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Player salaries/bonuses/etc are evaluated and analyzed all the time. In the hard cap NFL, resources are tightly controlled. Every dollar you spend on one player is a dollar you can't spend on another.
It's weird that some people now think that talking about how our team pretty much wasted twenty million dollars on a washed up QB in a year when we had little chance of competing is somehow inappropriate.
Nobody said it’s an illegitimate argument, just that there’s another side to it bc they were going to have a veteran qb on the roster in March. Calling it a $20m waste is hyperbole bc the net difference is a lot closer to $10m. And that’s with an inferior player at qb like Fitzpatrick.
Saving 10M and sparing Manning the indignity of being benched.
And as an added bonus, the worst case scenario of an inferior player like Fitzpatrick would have landed the Giants ... exactly where they are right now.
It doesn't matter what the context was in March. The fact is, it absolutely could be saved for the future, especially when they just had to restructure Solder's contract to have room for in-season moves.
And as for Eli being such a great mentor, you'll have to remind me which of the developmental QBs that were mentored by him ever went on to start a single NFL game? Just one start - can you name any of those QBs who were so well mentored that they even started one NFL game after their time with Eli? Surely at least one of them must have had even a little bit of run somewhere else after being so well mentored, right?
I'm not saying he'll be a bad mentor, I'm just saying we have absolutely nothing to confirm that he's a good one. People speaking glowingly about someone is somewhat meaningless when there's literally zero results to back that up.
You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good teammate vs. a scout.
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It doesn't matter what the context was in March. The fact is, it absolutely could be saved for the future, especially when they just had to restructure Solder's contract to have room for in-season moves.
And as for Eli being such a great mentor, you'll have to remind me which of the developmental QBs that were mentored by him ever went on to start a single NFL game? Just one start - can you name any of those QBs who were so well mentored that they even started one NFL game after their time with Eli? Surely at least one of them must have had even a little bit of run somewhere else after being so well mentored, right?
I'm not saying he'll be a bad mentor, I'm just saying we have absolutely nothing to confirm that he's a good one. People speaking glowingly about someone is somewhat meaningless when there's literally zero results to back that up.
You seem to be confusing what it means to be a good teammate vs. a scout.
No, you seem to be confusing guys saying they learned a lot from Eli with any of them ever actually benefitting from that in a way that would confirm that they're right.
I don't know why anyone just assumes that Eli will be a good mentor when it's something that he's never had to do in his career, and by his own admission he even said that it wasn't his job to be a mentor. He led by example more than anything else - we genuinely have no idea how that will translate when he's QB2. We can make some loose assumptions because we know Eli is both cerebral and classy, and the consummate team player, and those are traits that SHOULD make him a good mentor.
I'm just saying, we've never seem him actually do it, and none of the young QBs who came in behind him ever amounted to anything at all, so we don't even know how much they learned other than them saying they learned a lot. But maybe the reason why they all flunked out of the league is that they don't really know what "a lot" means.
Saving 10M and sparing Manning the indignity of being benched.
And as an added bonus, the worst case scenario of an inferior player like Fitzpatrick would have landed the Giants ... exactly where they are right now.
I think it would have been more of an indignity to cut him, replace him with an inferior player, and go to another team and get benched/replaced there. Here he got a chance to start and stay in if he won. I'm not so sure he would have gotten that chance elsewhere. And they even managed to finally fix the OL.
You are 100% right that as it turned out the results on the field would have been exactly the same with Fitz. The team would be 0-2 with Jones coming in (or he'd have been in earlier). But the decision had to get made in March and I honestly think if we were hoping to draft a 1st rd QB Eli was probably the best player to bring into the season for both the role of mentor and opening the season with any semblance of competitiveness. Money aside at this moment I'd still rather have Eli in the room getting Jones ready than any of the alternatives.
Money factored in saving $10m is obviously better than not saving $10m but you know what $10m got us in FA? Golden Tate. I like Golden Tate and would have no issue adding another player like him but the same way his absence isn't the reason we are 0-2 I'm not going to act like we'd have been able to magically find someone else who would have. This offseason we are already going to have more money to spend than good players available to spend on so I just don't view it as a big enough factor to influence decision. If you told me that adding a multi-year impact player like CJ Mosley was an option in March if we had more room that's different but I don't think that was the case. He got 17m AAV and 51m guaranteed.
They did just make it to the conference finals last season. Maybe their way is working a little bit better than the Giants' steadfast refusal to rebuild in earnest until this year.
Eli should have been cut after with reese and mcadoo but fans kept making excuses and so did ownership.
Sadness for Eli to me is 4 years to late. It would mean a whole lot more to me 4 years ago then today when he should have been cut years ago.
Move on, the Giants have~
[quote] this year and therefore was 100% behind retaining him as the starter. I think it was the right decision that simply didn't work out. They will have a huge cap savings after the season as a result. [/quote
Based on what did you think that.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
Agree but maybe splitting time with Eli there vs taking all of those snaps.
That being said.. I am sure he has had time to work with the starters
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Is Jones could have been practicing with the 1s all summer.
Agree but maybe splitting time with Eli there vs taking all of those snaps.
That being said.. I am sure he has had time to work with the starters
Deep into camp he had not yet worked with the ones
I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that today is the first time he hands the ball of to Barkley. Even if it’s not, he hasn’t done a ton with him or shep.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
In fairness, people weren't suggesting that the Giants leave the cupboard bare, they were merely saying that a relatively cheap replacement level QB would be an adequate bridge - and they were saying it then, so it's not entirely hindsight. It's just that they weren't proven correct until now (because we could be 0-2 with literally any QB).
I totally understand why the Giants did what they did, but it does present a scenario that's uneasy to reconcile as a fan: it seems like they once again overestimated their talent level and thought the roster could compete (much like last year) when they could have further committed to the rebuild. For a franchise with a history of half measures, it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see them operate differently or at least have better results.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
I don't believe anyone advocated for the scenario you are describing. Many, including myself questioned if Manning's play and future was much different than a journeyman, and if one could be had at 7M as they went into the draft, why pay Manning 23M.
That turned out to be true.
The league at large new the Giants were looking for a QB in the draft whether their QB was Fitzpatrick-like character or Manning. According to the GM himself he had to act fast to get Jones.
As it turns out, fast-forward to today, the only difference between cutting Manning and not was 16M dollars.
As if we have our hands on the cash!
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and when they paid Eli the roster bonus, they still did not draft anyone yet. Eli was the QB... period. Looking back now with Jones in the picture is the ultimate in hindsight 20-20.
Shit.. most people here thought Jones sucked when we drafted him. So, now that he looked decent in pre-season against 2nd 3rd team guys we are saying the Giants SHOULD HAVE just cut Eli's salary?
I could only imaging the shit show in here if the Giants cut Eli's pay and then Eli in turn just retires leaving us with virtually nothing before the draft. DG would have been called a complete moron.
I don't believe anyone advocated for the scenario you are describing. Many, including myself questioned if Manning's play and future was much different than a journeyman, and if one could be had at 7M as they went into the draft, why pay Manning 23M.
That turned out to be true.
The league at large new the Giants were looking for a QB in the draft whether their QB was Fitzpatrick-like character or Manning. According to the GM himself he had to act fast to get Jones.
As it turns out, fast-forward to today, the only difference between cutting Manning and not was 16M dollars.
I said yesterday that I'm pretty sanguine about the change. It is what it is. From an ethical perspective, I do have difficulty swallowing the giving up on the season with the idea that a win in 2020 carries more weight than a win in 2019 but I will work my way through that.
Having said that, the part that does make me (maybe too much so) emotional is the scapegoating part. I dispute that Eli played these first two games at a journeyman level. He made some quality throws, he missed some throws. He played against arguably the best pass defense in the league and, in the first game, a top 5 overall defense. He had zero NFL quality wide-receivers. And, for the most part, he played having to make up ground with a large deficit. I don't think anyone has sufficient information to say that it's journeyman level or not.
So far this year Buccanon has 0 tackles and according to 1 site has only played 4 snaps and Daryl Williams has supposedly not looked good in his return from knee surgery and PFF has him worse than Remmers to this point.
I'd still take either guy on this roster right now because again, something is always better than nothing and both of them have potential, but I find it extremely unlikely there would be any meaningful difference from whatever the extra money went towards (especially in the form of 1 year deals).