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the Beckham trade

blue1986 : 9/17/2019 8:11 pm
After watching Beckham last night I thought how it would have been if we had him versus Dallas and Buffalo. After the night he had against the Jets I have doubts about the trade. The players we have gotten for him have done nothing to justify it so far but its a long season.
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RE: The Beckham trade is very simple - either Lawrence makes Pro bowls  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 11:05 pm : link
In comment 14585137 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Or he doesnít. Peppers or Ximines could be nice players too but it comes down to the big guy. If he gives us 10 years of linval joseph level play itís a good deal. If he doesnít get a second contract here they didnít do a good job. I understand trading Beckham even just due to his injury risks, even last night he limped off after several plays, but you have to get value.


Lawrence has to be a major difference maker. If not, the deal is a huge flat-line.
RE: japanhead  
bradshaw44 : 9/17/2019 11:09 pm : link
In comment 14585163 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
there is no projection with OBJ other than whether he can stay healthy (btw, my post right before yours had that caveat). We know what he is.

Peppers is pretty close also, being that this is his third year and he's been a disappointment. 25th overall "athletic freak" who didn't have a position in college and is lost out there.

You are vastly, vastly underrating Beckham.

It would take Lawrence, Baker, Peppers, and Xman all to turn into useful players for this trade to be justified.

Out of those four, we need 2 out of 4 to turn into Keith Hamilton, Webster, Rolle, or Kiwanuka to make it even in the same stratosphere.

Remember, this was the best WR in the history of the team, bar none, who was still in his prime.


What good would it be having him here chirping in a rookie QBs ear all the time and then complaining to the media how the rookie needs to throw it to him more. Yes, my comment is hyperbole, but based on the way he was behaving before his departure, it is very possible thatís how things could have played out. Of course, they could have had an amazing connection and gone on to be Montana and Rice. But the fact is, his first few years here he was more TO then Rice. And TO in a losing environment is a cancer. Cutting that out, rather then waiting it out is the prudent course for a team that is rebuilding and needed multiple draft picks and positions filled. Speaking in definites about this trade two games into to its infancy is silly.

Beckham is more talented then the players we got, no doubt. But it was necessary, just like sitting Eli down now for Jones. It bugs some people but it needed to be done in both instances.
And furthermore  
bradshaw44 : 9/17/2019 11:12 pm : link
TO was and amazing receiver with an attitude problem and look at how he was dropped by teams due to behavior. The trade was OBJs doing, not DG.
Beckham was an issue because he isn't the guy you want on a losing  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2019 11:17 pm : link
rebuilding roster. Great player no doubt, but he was probably sick of all the losing. Imagine what he'd be like here this year? Browns probably are going to be good, but if they start to lose a whole bunch, watch out.
RE: RE: japanhead  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 11:17 pm : link
In comment 14585193 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:

Beckham is more talented then the players we got, no doubt. But it was necessary, just like sitting Eli down now for Jones. It bugs some people but it needed to be done in both instances.


We needed to do a better job managing OBJ's personality.

I'm not absolving OBJ's antics, but, to quote Jimmy Johnson - be consistent, and treat everyone differently. And he coached arguably THE biggest pain in the ass in NFL history: Charles Haley.

So let's just be honest. The support system at Jints Central just wasn't malleable enough to guide OBJ.
RE: Beckham was an issue because he isn't the guy you want on a losing  
Vanzetti : 9/17/2019 11:25 pm : link
In comment 14585205 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
rebuilding roster. Great player no doubt, but he was probably sick of all the losing. Imagine what he'd be like here this year? Browns probably are going to be good, but if they start to lose a whole bunch, watch out.


Maybe. I think actually would have embraced Jones. It was evident in the comments that he madeówhich got him traded óthat he thought Eli was done.

So now two games later Giants agree with him

Itís never good when a guy gets traded for speaking the truth
RE: RE: Beckham was an issue because he isn't the guy you want on a losing  
Sonic Youth : 9/17/2019 11:32 pm : link
In comment 14585231 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
In comment 14585205 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


rebuilding roster. Great player no doubt, but he was probably sick of all the losing. Imagine what he'd be like here this year? Browns probably are going to be good, but if they start to lose a whole bunch, watch out.



Maybe. I think actually would have embraced Jones. It was evident in the comments that he madeówhich got him traded óthat he thought Eli was done.

So now two games later Giants agree with him

Itís never good when a guy gets traded for speaking the truth


I agree with this. I think his problem was far more with the fact he thought Eli was done as opposed to anything about the Giants per se specifically as a franchise, or the owners, etc (though Gettleman has a tendency to make players hate him, so that could have exacerbated things).

We are all Giants fans, I love Eli (obviously), but we have an attachment to Eli. He doesn't, and he's thinking this in terms of career/fame.
The giants picked Eli over obj  
Junior22 : 9/17/2019 11:41 pm : link
And then Eli is now done after 2 games.

OBJ knew Eli was no longer a good qb and he was right. Now we complain that we have no weapons. Hahahah
RE: The giants picked Eli over obj  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 11:52 pm : link
In comment 14585249 Junior22 said:
Quote:
And then Eli is now done after 2 games.

OBJ knew Eli was no longer a good qb and he was right. Now we complain that we have no weapons. Hahahah


Thatís actually a very good point. Forgot about that.
I still miss Odell  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/18/2019 12:05 am : link
what might have been
hasn't it been reported they didn't want OBJ around a rookie QB?  
Eric on Li : 9/18/2019 12:05 am : link
I buy that personally and think there's validity in clearing things out to let Barkley become the team persona as much as much as Daniel Jones needs a chance to do the same.

Again, purely on injury risk I understand trading Beckham. Not all his fault, but his first 2 years he was a very different player than the last several (mostly due to injuries). But you don't give up something for nothing. Lawrence in particular has to become something in his own right (and on a positive note he has already flashed some).
RE: RE: japanhead  
bebopson : 9/18/2019 2:31 am : link
In comment 14585193 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:


What good would it be having him here chirping in a rookie QBs ear all the time and then complaining to the media how the rookie needs to throw it to him more. Yes, my comment is hyperbole, but based on the way he was behaving before his departure, it is very possible thatís how things could have played out.


I would argue that OBJ was the canary in the coal mine on Eli's career. Eli was done a few years ago and if they had realized it and started a legitimate transition earlier, OBJ wouldn't have been complaining so much. I think he would have gotten along with DJ just fine BTW.
RE: This just in:  
D_Giants : 9/22/2019 12:51 am : link
In comment 14584905 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
"Once in a generation" -type players only come along every, oh say, once in a generation or so and you can rarely get that type of value back with just a 1st and a 3rd and some random safety. People can nitpick Beckham's game all they want but the fact is he put up the best numbers in history for any WR's first 3 years in the league. Records all over the place for fastest to x yards and y TDs.

Of course the trade wasn't even. When are people going to finally accept that? But the trade wasn't about value or skill, it was about "changing the culture"... it was due to a "locker room problem". Usually when you trade a top 5 player away you get a ton back in return (see: Khalil Mack trade). We didn't get that for Beckham, so it was unlikely that we were going to get the better end of the deal in terms of value. But again, the trade wasn't about value, the trade was about Mara and Gettleman thinking that "fixing the locker room" was going to automatically translate to wins. Which didn't make a ton of sense to me because across the board the whole locker room actually fucking liked the guy, the only people who didn't like him were the people writing his checks (and maybe Shurmur).


Giants now have a great culture, no defense, only one great offensive player, not two, and another sterling, winless record. If ďrebuildingĒ means giving away good and great players, then DG is truly rebuilding the franchise.
RE: RE: RE: japanhead  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 7:04 am : link
In comment 14585319 bebopson said:
Quote:
In comment 14585193 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:




What good would it be having him here chirping in a rookie QBs ear all the time and then complaining to the media how the rookie needs to throw it to him more. Yes, my comment is hyperbole, but based on the way he was behaving before his departure, it is very possible thatís how things could have played out.



I would argue that OBJ was the canary in the coal mine on Eli's career. Eli was done a few years ago and if they had realized it and started a legitimate transition earlier, OBJ wouldn't have been complaining so much. I think he would have gotten along with DJ just fine BTW.


I agree with this. Any posts saying DJ would get chewed up by OBJ is really insulting to DJ. Saquon and Shep have DJs back and OBJ would have too.
This talking point  
jestersdead : 9/22/2019 7:32 am : link
In my opinion is b/c of three reasons
1) Beckham is no longer in the NYC media spotlight and therefore is not getting the same daily attention
2) he has toned it down and seems to be maturing, which did not happen here.
3) the giants continue to lose

This trade could be similar to the Chris Carter trade out of Philly to Minnesota.
RE: This talking point  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 8:03 am : link
In comment 14591048 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In my opinion is b/c of three reasons
1) Beckham is no longer in the NYC media spotlight and therefore is not getting the same daily attention
2) he has toned it down and seems to be maturing, which did not happen here.
3) the giants continue to lose

This trade could be similar to the Chris Carter trade out of Philly to Minnesota.


Did you see the jets game? He is the exact same guy with the visor issue and the cramping.

If anything he is even more outspoken now. Win and he will be fine. Lose and watch out.
Terrible  
Mike in Boston : 9/22/2019 8:05 am : link
Whatever happens with Lawrence and Baker, the draft picks are not much compensation for a player with Beckham's talent level. What fraction of mid-first round picks or third round picks develop into hall of fame caliber players like Beckham? Those draft picks are worth, perhaps, 1/10 of a Beckham. If Lawrence and/or Baker develop into Hall of Fame players, that will be testament that the drafting was both good and lucky. Not that the trade was at fair value.

And Peppers seems to be what he was in Cleveland; a JAG safety. Maybe another 10% of Beckham's value


The trade was in a class with the Sox selling Babe Ruth's contract.

Enough with this...  
Burtman : 9/22/2019 8:31 am : link
once in a generation crap about Beckham. He's an excellent receiver and may make the hall of fame but he's not even the best receiver playing in the league right now.
Mike  
UConn4523 : 9/22/2019 8:34 am : link
you seem to be mistaking Beckhamís talent with his value when he was traded. They arenít close to being the same thing. All the talent in the world doesnít matter if the player refuses to play, becomes a cancer, dogs it on the field, trashes the organization publicly, etc.

We moved on and got picks and a player back for him. If the picks donít work out, blame the drafting not the trade.
Iíll take Lawrence long term  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/22/2019 8:37 am : link
Beckham May never be Antonio Brown bad but heís a cancer. And unless he can play DB heís not whatía mainly missing w this ream.

Issue 1 Shurmur and Betcher
Issue 2 Defense pass rush and our keystone cop DBs

The Fantasy Football mentality that you need HOF level WRs to win a championship has been actually shown Over and over and over to be a fallacy.
the Giants paid him 90 million dollars and it wasn't enough.  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:40 am : link
What else could they have done for him to be happy? The answer is nothing, because he'll never be happy.
He publicly spit in his employers face four weeks after getting  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:42 am : link
a record breaking contract.

He didn't go for the onsides kick.

He benched himself the final four games.

He is unreliable.

Would you put up with that as an employer signing the check?
Beckham hot himself shipped out of town.  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:43 am : link
Nobody else.
RE: the Giants paid him 90 million dollars and it wasn't enough.  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 8:43 am : link
In comment 14591085 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
What else could they have done for him to be happy? The answer is nothing, because he'll never be happy.


Simple, win some games.
RE: RE: the Giants paid him 90 million dollars and it wasn't enough.  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14591091 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14591085 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


What else could they have done for him to be happy? The answer is nothing, because he'll never be happy.



Simple, win some games.


He had a chance to do that in Green Bay in the playoffs. He blew it. It will always be something with him. Always.
He had a chance to seal the Bears game, too.  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:45 am : link
.
It never ends well for personalities like him....  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:48 am : link
.
RE: He had a chance to seal the Bears game, too.  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 8:50 am : link
In comment 14591093 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


keep using one game and one play as evidence and ignore the rest.

You forget that he both caught and threw a TD in that game.
RE: It never ends well for personalities like him....  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 8:51 am : link
In comment 14591097 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Worked out ok for Dion Sanders.
Yeah, he caught a TD and threw a TD....  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:51 am : link
and then with everything on the line and it coming down to one play, he quit.
And that's Beckham in a nutshell.  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 8:53 am : link
.
Ron Mexico  
UConn4523 : 9/22/2019 8:53 am : link
donít really understand you stance on this. The guy quit on his team, trashed the organization, and basically forced a trade. I supported Beckham through all the sideline stuff but that crap isnít something anyone should stand for.

And dion played 20 years ago. Got any relevant comps?
RE: Ron Mexico  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 9:01 am : link
In comment 14591103 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
donít really understand you stance on this. The guy quit on his team, trashed the organization, and basically forced a trade. I supported Beckham through all the sideline stuff but that crap isnít something anyone should stand for.

And dion played 20 years ago. Got any relevant comps?


I donít see it that way.
I donít think he quit, he had 1 bad play. He had dozens of super high effort plays last year everyone forgets.

Trashed the organization is a stretch, and itís not like the org deserved accolades. At least one guy wasnít ok with all the losing.

I doubt I will get anyone to see it my way but if he is able to have success on a perennial loser like Cleveland then maybe itís possible he wasnít the problem here?
Look, its hard not to miss the explosive plays  
Jimmy Googs : 9/22/2019 9:05 am : link
and his abilities to change a game. And its really hard when you see it happen in a Browns jersey while our current receiving corps is one of the worst in the NFL.

But the OBJ situation was only becoming worse and worse on the Giants. I am sure blame goes both ways to some degree, but in the end the Giants signed him, gave him a whole lot of money and his situation wasn't getting any better.

Maybe if the environment was different like the NYG were winning, or front office/coaching was more stable or Qb wasn't in decline then maybe OBj would have "played along" better. Maybe not.

He wasn't the first diva WR in the NFL that was a pain in the ass, and he sure as hell won't be the last...
No I donít see it your way  
UConn4523 : 9/22/2019 9:06 am : link
and he wasnt the only problem here (I think thatís obvious) but he was certainly one of them. How come everyone else acted like a professional?

I miss watching him play and wish things were different at QB during his time here, but that doesnít change how he acted.
RE: Look, its hard not to miss the explosive plays  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 9:08 am : link
In comment 14591112 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and his abilities to change a game. And its really hard when you see it happen in a Browns jersey while our current receiving corps is one of the worst in the NFL.

But the OBJ situation was only becoming worse and worse on the Giants. I am sure blame goes both ways to some degree, but in the end the Giants signed him, gave him a whole lot of money and his situation wasn't getting any better.

Maybe if the environment was different like the NYG were winning, or front office/coaching was more stable or Qb wasn't in decline then maybe OBj would have "played along" better. Maybe not.

He wasn't the first diva WR in the NFL that was a pain in the ass, and he sure as hell won't be the last...


And that sums it up. You don't think we got enough in return last offseason? If the trend continued we would have gotten even less this season/offseason and so on. At some point, he becomes untradeable and we're stuck with an untradeable malcontent.

We had him for 5 seasons. He was getting worse, not better.
And if that mega contract we gave him wasn't going to do it,  
Britt in VA : 9/22/2019 9:09 am : link
nothing was.
RE: And if that mega contract we gave him wasn't going to do it,  
Jimmy Googs : 9/22/2019 9:12 am : link
In comment 14591117 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
nothing was.


yep...
RE: And if that mega contract we gave him wasn't going to do it,  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14591117 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
nothing was.


Disagree. Winning would make him happy.
Thatís all he wants.

Funny thing is on Gettlemanís first day he said he wants guys that hate to lose, then he ships out the only guy on the team that actually feels that way.
And we will get another opportunity tonight  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 9:18 am : link
To see how much worse he continues to get.
Ron - yes and no is my guess  
Jimmy Googs : 9/22/2019 9:19 am : link
Winning does cure many ills, but for some of these guys even that is fleeting.

I wonder if OBJ was one of those guys...
RE: Ron - yes and no is my guess  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 9:28 am : link
In comment 14591133 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Winning does cure many ills, but for some of these guys even that is fleeting.

I wonder if OBJ was one of those guys...


All we need is time to find out the answer to that one.

Although if he becomes a happy successful member of a winning organization Iím sure many here will give credit for his ďturnaround ď to the giants and the wake up call that gave him by trading him.
RE: RE: Ron - yes and no is my guess  
Jimmy Googs : 9/22/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14591140 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14591133 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Winning does cure many ills, but for some of these guys even that is fleeting.

I wonder if OBJ was one of those guys...



All we need is time to find out the answer to that one.

Although if he becomes a happy successful member of a winning organization Iím sure many here will give credit for his ďturnaround ď to the giants and the wake up call that gave him by trading him.


I don't know about that one. But if he hoists up a Lombardi some day (before we do) I definitely will be pissed...
RE: RE: And if that mega contract we gave him wasn't going to do it,  
UConn4523 : 9/22/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14591125 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14591117 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


nothing was.



Disagree. Winning would make him happy.
Thatís all he wants.

Funny thing is on Gettlemanís first day he said he wants guys that hate to lose, then he ships out the only guy on the team that actually feels that way.


And thatís where you lost me. Beckham was the only one that hates to lose? Talk about bullshit.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/22/2019 10:06 am : link
Can't Barkley hate losing just as much as Beckham and not feel the need to be gigantic distraction in the wake of that? It looks that way so far to me.

This idea that he's just excused for everything in the name of not wanting to lose is such horse shit.

Larry Fitzgerald has been on a ton of losing football teams. He never felt the need to make it about him or make it a story. It's not that hard to be a professional.
Iím not saying his antics are admirable  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 10:18 am : link
But a competent organization should be able to 1) put out a decent enough of a team that doesnít lose so much as it gets your best players frustrated.
2) be able to manage guys with ďpersonalitiesĒ

On a flip side, if the losing continues, im not so sure everyone will remain a good soldier.
...  
christian : 9/22/2019 10:21 am : link
I defended every moment of Beckham's time with the Giants until those final four games. All of it doesn't matter if you don't want to be on the field.

What concerns me is management knew who he was, and identified him as someone who was part of their plan. A plan strongly predicated on good behavior and culture. If that's true, what the f-ck are they thinking extending Beckham? Beckham didn't sign the deal and become a turd. He was a turd from year 2 forward.

It shows me either Shurmur can't manage personalities or Gettleman is just making it up as he goes.
RE: Mike  
Mike in Boston : 9/22/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14591080 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you seem to be mistaking Beckhamís talent with his value when he was traded. They arenít close to being the same thing. All the talent in the world doesnít matter if the player refuses to play, becomes a cancer, dogs it on the field, trashes the organization publicly, etc.

We moved on and got picks and a player back for him. If the picks donít work out, blame the drafting not the trade.


1) The way to deal with the locker room problems was to bring in a coach who could handle the talent, not bring in a nobody like Shurmur and give away all the talent for picks that, historically, are unlikely to produce comparable talent.

2) You have the draft pick situation exactly backwards. If we get really good players from them, that will be more than one should expect. Therefore I will credit the drafting, rather than the trade. Going by historical averages one can expect a decent starter from a mid first and a decent backup or role player from a late 3rd. That would be no compensation for Beckham. Both GMs and fans tend to overvalue draft picks by focusing on what they hope to get from the pick instead of what historically happens. The GMs do it because they all think they are smarter than average; by definition most aren't. I am not sure why fans get caught up in this.

3) And one really can't understand the combinations of fire sale and bringing in over the hill players in FA and Beckham's contract.
RE: RE: RE: And if that mega contract we gave him wasn't going to do it,  
ron mexico : 9/22/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14591165 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14591125 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14591117 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


nothing was.



Disagree. Winning would make him happy.
Thatís all he wants.

Funny thing is on Gettlemanís first day he said he wants guys that hate to lose, then he ships out the only guy on the team that actually feels that way.



And thatís where you lost me. Beckham was the only one that hates to lose? Talk about bullshit.



Haha, so you were on my side until that comment?

Everyone else seems pretty nonplussed. Possible exception of Jackrabbit.

Happy to take a look at evidence to the contrary though.

Mike  
UConn4523 : 9/22/2019 10:33 am : link
Iím not over valuing picks. Beckham wasnít working out for many reasons. We got assets back. Maybe it wasnít enough for Beckham the talent but at the time itís more than I thought weíd get for Beckham the player.

Ron, no I didnít agree with you but I respected your position until you claimed he was the only one that hated losing. Itís a preposterous statement.
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