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Desperation or Positive Football Move?

gidiefor : Mod : 9/17/2019 10:37 pm
I've been giving the promotion of Jones some thought, and I think that the key elements on offense the Giants have been missing is the ability to develop a rhythm, the ability to consistently be decisive, and the ability to extend play. I believe that the Giants Offense should be playing much better than they are, and what I'm hoping is that with Jones they are going to have more of a spark plug for those elements behind the wheel. This is the way it appeared in preseason.

Eli was good and steady in his limited preseason appearances but the teams demeanor with him was kind of matter of fact. We didn't really see him get tested then. When he was tested in the first two regular season games the offense sputtered. Jones on the other hand led them in a more electric fashion and the team was responding to that electricity. We saw him get tested and he and they respond to it with more grit and fire.

If we can see that electricity it will at least give the Giants more of a fighting chance to score more points, and hopefully the defense will respond in kind. It's a lot easier to play spirited football if your leader shows that fighting spirit. It's a spirit we really haven't seen.

What we've been seeing is a lot of pressing and very tentative playing after any adversity arises and I think that approach and a sense of desperation, were factors that led to the miscues we keep seeing.

So here's to the new Quarterback. I am hoping he is the real deal. I certainly think he has the right fighting spirit and I am looking forward to seeing more fight, more spunk, and less bloody helplessness. I think this is the right move at the right time.
At this point it's the right move  
ChaChing : 9/17/2019 10:49 pm : link
I agree there's a chance DJ's 'new energy' could help the team on the whole. But I think - tho he's a rook and has to prove it - his accuracy & touch will help guys like EE, SB esp, and the O on the whole. That's one thing IMO Eli has always been weaker at, and think it could make a huge difference with NYG's scheme & players (would have been huge for OBJ, but also SS & GT now, really all tgts)

We'll also have to see if that's because of poor playcalls w/ guys button-hooking too often, or running short of the sticks...again, esp guys like EE w/ his speed who should be catching in stride vs stop routes

Either way, it's time to find out. Pretty hopeful given his toughness, talent & attitude. Good luck DJ & NYG!
You're  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/17/2019 10:50 pm : link
overthinking this.

We're a rebuilding ball club is way behind the Cowboys and Eagles on the talent scale. The team just spent the #6 pick in the entire draft on a QB.

There is no point in playing Eli. I expect Daniel Jones to have a rough 14 games. But he will be ahead of the learning curve entering 2020.
Besides Saquon  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 9/17/2019 10:51 pm : link
And Engram our offense Isn’t very good.

DJ is a rookie and is going to play like a rookie.

This isn’t going to fix the problem. DJ needs to take his licks and learn on the job and that’s about to happen and the best thing to happen.
But even so as many have said in the 100s of threads today it was time  
ChaChing : 9/17/2019 10:52 pm : link
Eli isn't winning, no sense keeping him in and wasting development time & live reps for the rook QB regardless of his W-L records...
What Eric said.  
Hsilwek92 : 9/17/2019 10:56 pm : link
It was the move that had to be made to move the franchise forward. They just made it way later than it should have been.

If they have the talent, staff and FO to make him successful is the real question.
shurmur was using half his playbook  
nygiants16 : 9/17/2019 10:58 pm : link
eli can not move, everything had to come out of the shotgun, that is why play action did not work.

Shurmur wants to get his qb moving around and put pressure on the defense, i expect a lot of play action and roll outs sunday..

Eli was simply to limited
There is no scenario where it makes sense to play Eli  
Sonic Youth : 9/17/2019 11:00 pm : link
he frankly should have been released before the beginning of this year.

I'm glad they made this move in week 2, and not week 4 or 6 or something.
Many  
Nine-Tails : 9/17/2019 11:15 pm : link
Including myself expect Jones to go through growing pains, and the team is likely headed for a top pick with or without Eli. But, I do think there’s a possibility Jones comes in and plays well relatively speaking for a rookie qb. There’s something about that gives me confidence. Something similar to Matt Ryan in his rookie year.
RE: shurmur was using half his playbook  
BlueHurricane : 9/17/2019 11:25 pm : link
In comment 14585182 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
eli can not move, everything had to come out of the shotgun, that is why play action did not work.

Shurmur wants to get his qb moving around and put pressure on the defense, i expect a lot of play action and roll outs sunday..

Eli was simply to limited


Worked pretty well the end of last season
Desperation  
giantstock : 9/17/2019 11:26 pm : link
But it doesn't matter. They are not a goof team until the defense performs. The offense can be competent because of Barkley.

But it's desperation. No need to rush but imo ofc they've done everything wrong from start by 1st off hiring DG.

SO now we have another mistake. Jones should've
come in during week 5.

Next year this team better be good enough to be in the hunt at worst during the last game of the season.
It's both  
huygens20 : 9/17/2019 11:26 pm : link
We aren't going to win any games 17-14.


The defense just isnt good enough.


Only path to victory is to outscore our opponents. Eli is not good enough anymore to make his teammates better & doesnt have the ability to play from behind.

Desperation in what sense though?  
jcn56 : 9/17/2019 11:28 pm : link
Nobody thought they were going anywhere this year (or at least I hope to God they didn't).

Fans are angry - they've been angry. Jones isn't likely to fare any better than Eli - in fact, he could be much worse.

So how does it equate to a desperation move? If Gettleman and Shurmur want to preserve their jobs, that clock doesn't start ticking until Jones starts taking snaps. So him sitting on the bench would actually benefit them.

If Mara wants to sell tickets, he easily could have approached Eli and they could have announced a retirement after the season, and you'd get a farewell tour out of it.

The only real logic behind this move is that you want to start getting Jones some snaps, both to further his experience and to see what you have in him. Neither one of those is born out of desperation.
I agree with OP  
V.I.G. : 9/17/2019 11:30 pm : link
The messaging from Giants media is that this was a season “theme change” and Francesa adds the charge that this was to mask the ineffectiveness of the GM, D and HC.

That would imply a coordinated message and strategy. That’s not what I saw. You watch the post game presser, the real motive was plain and straightforward in the raw moment. Exasperation. Shurmur believes they have a better chance to win NOW with DJ than the 2019 Eli. Gettlemen knew this last year and drafted a QB. If DG thought Eli still had it, they would’ve waited.

Everyone in the building hoped for the best. I think they would have taken 7 wins with Eli over 6 with DJ even if DJ got experience.

But the offense was putrid. And the embarrassment of the past year looked to continue. But they want to win now.

Required disclaimers: EIHF, EMFG, IAJF
who on the giants offense is an “Eli guy”. That is has played with Eli  
plato : 9/17/2019 11:34 pm : link
for several years? I didn’t look at the roster but from an old man’s memory, no lineman, a rare wr, one te, no rb’s etc. it’s not last year or two years that counts, but who has shared the “wars” l Eli, so who has that emotional connection that only comes from shared danger and elation with success.

Really no on comes to mind on either side of the ball. It’s a team without an identity and it’s too late to become Eli’s. So it becomes Jones’s team by default if he can earn it. No time like now for him to start.
I agree with OP 100%.  
Prude : 9/17/2019 11:35 pm : link
I am not making any promises that this will become a winning football club but I really do believe our guys are going to work harder and play faster under DJ. Odell might be an asshole but I believe the things he said about Eli not putting them in a position to win were widely discussed in the locker room. These guys are going to be going into this next game feeling like they got a new lease on this season. It might not be enough, but it might be.
Panic and Desperation  
clatterbuck : 9/17/2019 11:48 pm : link
I don't see any other way to look at after going through camp, preseason, the so-called "plan" fell apart after two albeit lousy games?
For me it’s a admission  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/17/2019 11:49 pm : link
That this is at best a 4-6 win team no matter who plays QB.

The defense is a fucking joke. Other than the Dolphins who are making sure they will owe every week by 50 this team is looking at a bottom 5 pick.

Pitt Cincy and maybe Jacksonville May be up there fighting it out over who will be # 2(pun intended) w this collection of badly coached players

Betcher needs to be Tim Lewised. Maybe Jones can be better but when 3-10 is the same as 3rd and 1 good luck winning

RE: Desperation in what sense though?  
bw in dc : 9/17/2019 11:50 pm : link
In comment 14585237 jcn56 said:
Quote:


Fans are angry - they've been angry. Jones isn't likely to fare any better than Eli - in fact, he could be much worse.



That’s a very important point. Jones could be. But that’s where Shurmur needs to show discipline and keep sending Jones out there. Let him take his lumps. Maybe sit him for a second half if things go sideways in the first half. But patch him up, get his mind right, and get back on the proverbial horse.

With these rookie QBs, especially high selections, you have about two and a half seasons to figure this out. If you can’t make it work by then, it’s back to the drawing board. And into the market looking for another solution...
RE: For me it’s a admission  
Prude : 9/17/2019 11:54 pm : link
In comment 14585257 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
That this is at best a 4-6 win team no matter who plays QB.

The defense is a fucking joke. Other than the Dolphins who are making sure they will owe every week by 50 this team is looking at a bottom 5 pick.

Pitt Cincy and maybe Jacksonville May be up there fighting it out over who will be # 2(pun intended) w this collection of badly coached players

Betcher needs to be Tim Lewised. Maybe Jones can be better but when 3-10 is the same as 3rd and 1 good luck winning


The Defense was always going to be this bad. There are just too many young players in spots where they can be exploited. DJ is going to have to come in and win shootouts, and if he plays like he did in preseason that is possible. Hopefully the D finds it's footing as the season progresses.
RE: who on the giants offense is an “Eli guy”. That is has played with Eli  
montanagiant : 9/17/2019 11:57 pm : link
In comment 14585246 plato said:
Quote:
for several years? I didn’t look at the roster but from an old man’s memory, no lineman, a rare wr, one te, no rb’s etc. it’s not last year or two years that counts, but who has shared the “wars” l Eli, so who has that emotional connection that only comes from shared danger and elation with success.

Really no on comes to mind on either side of the ball. It’s a team without an identity and it’s too late to become Eli’s. So it becomes Jones’s team by default if he can earn it. No time like now for him to start.

This is actually a good astute point. As a huge Eli fan, I am disappointed but this makes sense
RE: Panic and Desperation  
V.I.G. : 9/18/2019 12:08 am : link
In comment 14585254 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
I don't see any other way to look at after going through camp, preseason, the so-called "plan" fell apart after two albeit lousy games?

What team comes out and says "our plan is hope, but we're not really sure if our QB is still a playmaker"? Of course they're going to try and pump up the fans and the locker room with expectations. But look at their actions for what they really believe(d). The closest we got was shurmur's " Daniel is preparing to play week 1 / we are expecting a great year from Eli" or "we told Eli it was his job to keep Jones off the field"
RE: RE: For me it’s a admission  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/18/2019 12:37 am : link
In comment 14585266 Prude said:
Quote:
In comment 14585257 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


That this is at best a 4-6 win team no matter who plays QB.

The defense is a fucking joke. Other than the Dolphins who are making sure they will owe every week by 50 this team is looking at a bottom 5 pick.

Pitt Cincy and maybe Jacksonville May be up there fighting it out over who will be # 2(pun intended) w this collection of badly coached players

Betcher needs to be Tim Lewised. Maybe Jones can be better but when 3-10 is the same as 3rd and 1 good luck winning




The Defense was always going to be this bad. There are just too many young players in spots where they can be exploited. DJ is going to have to come in and win shootouts, and if he plays like he did in preseason that is possible. Hopefully the D finds it's footing as the season progresses.


I doubt the my thought the D would be this bad. The secondary is usually 5-10 yards away from receivers. I Agree it. will get slightly better as some of the rookies get their bearings but I have so little faith in Betcher right now I’m not sure it helps enough.

I’d have waited a couple weeks to let Tate and Sheppard return but at this point I’m ok w Jones getting his shot. He has good OL and Barkley. A lot more than Eli had to go w. But he’s going to need to put up 35 every week. Good luck w that w this team
Definitely not a move made out of desperation (imo)  
short lease : 9/18/2019 2:24 am : link
You make desperate moves when you think you still have a shot. The Giants know they have no shot at anything this year. So, it is like "What the hell?" .... let see what he's got.

I guess you could call it a positive football move in the sense that it is time to experiment. Everybody else is still being watched. .... not just Jones.
The move was made  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 5:54 am : link
this soon during the year because the team is horrible. Clearly worse than what the braintrust expected. Now, it can be labeled a break in the new QB developmental type year. This lowers expectations and buys time for Shurmur.

Eli the lightning rod is gone. Hopefully Jones is the goods.
Kurt Warner thinks it is desperation on Shurmur's part.  
Britt in VA : 9/18/2019 6:25 am : link
I just think we weren't winning with the team around him anyways so might as well get Jones some time in there.
It's time.  
Bubba : 9/18/2019 6:48 am : link
This is a very young team that will experience growing pains. DJ is the final piece to the puzzle so they can now ALL (players and coaches) grow together. Not playing DJ made no sense. Positive football move.
Kurt Warner  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/18/2019 6:52 am : link
is right in his assessment that it is desperation for Shurmur.

Coaching his fourth year he needs to be producing wins regardless of previous circumstances.

All the talk has been Eli for a couple years now. Now, he has the QB he selected to run his offense. I think the Giants and Jones will need to show steady improvement for him to be back next year.

The Giants may have recognized they are not going to the playoffs this year and by playing Eli most of the year you are giving PS a pass and he gets another year. To me, PS there may be concerns from leadership regarding him.
It’s just the obvious next move to make. It would be desperation  
Jimmy Googs : 9/18/2019 6:53 am : link
if Jones didn’t look too good in preseason but he did.

Recall when Dallas benched Bledsoe for Romo years back...Romo took some lumps but the immediate spark he gave the team was unmistakeable.

There is no point to keep playing Eli  
ZogZerg : 9/18/2019 6:55 am : link
The defense is garbage and the WRs are all dinged up or out.
Young QBs get better by PLAYING. There is no more reason to keep Jones watching.

If the D looked more promising and/or the Offense was playing well, then Eli keeps playing. Neither was the case.

Easy decision by Shurmur.
Not desperation.  
section125 : 9/18/2019 6:58 am : link
Did you see how awkward Eli was rolling out or moving from pressure? Did you see the ball flight, the spin(or wobble) on his passes? He was indecisive making plays.

At this point in time, I think Jones gives them a better chance to win. DG built him a decent line so that he should not be plastered early and often. Time to set the bird free.

God Bless Eli and his lovely family. Thank you for what you did.
It was time...  
Rong5611 : 9/18/2019 7:11 am : link
The team is worse than they thought, especially on defense. Baker is a huge problem.

Jones is better than they thought he would be.

I think this happened earlier than we all thought, but it is the right move. The franchise has hit rock bottom, they need to let the kid play and develop. They need to see what they have.
It's not desperation.  
George : 9/18/2019 7:13 am : link
The FO knew going into this season that it would be 1) a loser and 2) Eli's last year. That's why they started collecting picks last season, why they drafted Jones at #6 last spring, and that's why they jettisoned all those big salaries last year.

This was the plan all along. The only unknown was the week to make the change. They wisely chose to do it sooner rather than later to give Jones more experience going into 2020 and 2021 when the rebuilt team will be ready to compete.

It's not desperation. It's the way transitions have to happen in the NFL.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/18/2019 8:03 am : link
If something is arguably the right move, how is that desperate?

It's not desperation  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/18/2019 8:06 am : link
I believe the plan was accelerated due to the 0-2 start and the fact that the defense has a lot of growing to do. It frankly had to happen this way given the iconic status of Eli. Cutting him after they drafted DJ, while maybe sensible from a salary cap point of view, would have been really bad on a lot of other levels. Everything suggests that they are trying to build a team for the long-term. That is about developing trust in the locker room and on the field.
RE: It’s just the obvious next move to make. It would be desperation  
giantsFC : 9/18/2019 8:18 am : link
In comment 14585374 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
if Jones didn’t look too good in preseason but he did.

Recall when Dallas benched Bledsoe for Romo years back...Romo took some lumps but the immediate spark he gave the team was unmistakeable.


Good comparison.

Hopefully this works out. It’s just hard to put all the blame on one player while the whole team outside of a running back and interior lineman suck.
Positive football move  
RobCarpenter : 9/18/2019 8:19 am : link
It was time to rip off the band-aid. I’m surprised it happened this early in the season.

The D has what, 3 rookies starting, and how many second and third year players? The D will struggle.

I’m not quite sure how a GM messages that the team is rebuilding without sounding defeatist or making the players feel disrespected.

I love what Eli has done for this team. But they drafted Joes at #6 for a reason.
It was the right move  
jeff57 : 9/18/2019 8:24 am : link
Going nowhere and need to see what we have in Jones.
we should have done this at least 1-2 seasons ago  
mdc1 : 9/18/2019 8:34 am : link
. DJ was drafted #1, we need to get him out there and start rebuilding, and maybe winning some games. Eli will be recognized soon enough. For what he is paid, I'm sure he is not heartbroken over the inevitable.

It is going to be painful for DJ but we need to see what he has and what he can do beyond "the nothing" produced over the last several seasons.
Warner  
Ike#88 : 9/18/2019 8:40 am : link
is wrong. Desperation would have been hoping for the situation to improve in 4 to 6 more games.
I didn't read the whole  
arniefez : 9/18/2019 8:43 am : link
I didn't even read the whole OP.

But this is simple:

If the HC waited until late in the season to start Jones he was going to fired. This is the only chance to save his job.

That's it. Not any other reason.
The move was going to be made at some point this season  
Rudy5757 : 9/18/2019 9:05 am : link
the roster just isnt good enough. Better to do it sooner rather than later especially if we start to win. the writing was on the wall as soon as DJ was drafted. Eli was in the last year of his contract and we have a bottom 1/3 roster.

The worst case scenario would have been that the Giants remain in playoff contention almost the whole season and Jones didnt get to play except for Garbage time. This sets us up to have Jones ready for 2020 and 2021. If he is the Guy we should start to see it sooner rather than later. Whatever we get this season is gravy. maybe Jones makes a run and keeps us in contention. Maybe he is a disaster who knows. I just want to see him get better each week.

At this point it is the coaching staff and mangements ONLY move to get  
Dinger : 9/18/2019 9:19 am : link
any better, so in that sense, maybe its desparation in order to not lose fans further.

I see it mentioned that Eli can't run the plays Shurmur is calling that his immobility is the primary reason we should go to Jones, that Shurmur is only using half his playbook on Eli. If that is the case, what kind of coach do we have in Shurmur? I look back at his experience and more and more I'm baffled at how he was chosen as head coach. They have nobody to help the defense, no one else who could possibly spark the offense let alone the team. Hopefully, Jones can make some progress with the plays being called and as has been stated bring some electricty or some urgency to the Giants play. I am sceptical of the wide receivers he has (he had a crappy supporting cast in Duke and not sure our WR are much better). He does have a decent OL it seems TG. And if all else fails hand it off to Barkley. I am sceptical because you're asking a rookie to come in and lift the WHOLE team to play better. Something the coaches haven't been able to do......
Desperation move from a failing coaching staff.  
Red Dog : 9/18/2019 12:44 pm : link
Period.
I saw what you're talking about in the preseason  
regulator : 9/18/2019 12:49 pm : link
A little bit more energy in the huddle, something you can just "feel". Not quite sure how else to put it.

We'll see if that translates to anything on Sunday.
I'm really not sure why folks  
.McL. : 9/18/2019 12:50 pm : link
are still fixated on winning now.

This team has always had such a talent deficit that there was never a serious opportunity for them to be competitive this year.

This year was ALWAYS about learning and incremental improvement.

Folks should have absolutely no expectations that DJ is going to step in and turn this team's fortunes around. He is a rookie, and he will have his rookie struggles like Eli did, like Payton did, like our secondary is having.

I originally predicted 6 wins on the season. My expectation was that they would stick with Eli for 8 to 10 games with the Giants winning about 6 games and that Eli would be responsible for pulling a couple out. With DJ, I have to revise my expectations down a game or two. And that's ok, it moves DJ farther along the learning curve for next year.

Once again, I need to remind folks. This team won 3 games two and looked awful doing it. They were 1 and 7 the first half of last year, and looked even worse. Then they were gifted 4 games when the Giants were relatively healthy, and the opponents had backup QBs, along with other significant injuries at the the time. Those wins were a mirage... Last year's team was 2 or 3 win team in actual quality.

Now the Giants are playing even more 1st and 2nd year players. Many of them selected in rounds 3 and under where there was and is no certainty of success no at individual player levels at this point, no matter how much they have flashed.Many of these players we are hoping will become something special, will just never develop further. This team has a lot more work to do.

Personally I thought it was premature to get a QB in this year's draft. The team needed a lot more talent before being able to compete, and to fully take advantage of the pick's rookie contract. Which means we may be wasting DJ's and Saquan's rookie contract. Moves I questioned at the time, and still do.
This team won 3 games two  
.McL. : 9/18/2019 12:53 pm : link
years ago

sorry left out the "years ago" part.
I fully Expect This to get worse  
Festina Lente : 9/18/2019 12:57 pm : link
But I am okay with it because I want them to see if DJ is the real deal before our next Draft.

I don't believe he will be able to carry the team to a win on his own. The Roster is too talent-poor overall IMO. But it's okay I've made my peace with it.

I am, of course, hoping I am wrong.
RE: You're  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/18/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14585165 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
overthinking this.

There is no point in playing Eli. I expect Daniel Jones to have a rough 14 games. But he will be ahead of the learning curve entering 2020.


ITA.

I do think Jones will be a fairly typical rookie. Even the best QBs are average at best their rookie season.
.  
Bill2 : 9/18/2019 1:01 pm : link
like that post and agree with the line of thinking Mcl
RE: You're  
BlueLou'sBack : 9/18/2019 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14585165 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
overthinking this.

We're a rebuilding ball club is way behind the Cowboys and Eagles on the talent scale. The team just spent the #6 pick in the entire draft on a QB.

There is no point in playing Eli. I expect Daniel Jones to have a rough 14 games. But he will be ahead of the learning curve entering 2020.


100% spot on.
RE: I'm really not sure why folks  
family progtitioner : 9/18/2019 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14586201 .McL. said:
Quote:

Personally I thought it was premature to get a QB in this year's draft. The team needed a lot more talent before being able to compete, and to fully take advantage of the pick's rookie contract. Which means we may be wasting DJ's and Saquan's rookie contract. Moves I questioned at the time, and still do.


I understand this line of thinking but a transition was needed from Eli and DG thinks DJ is the real deal. Ideally it would end up like Seattle with Wilson or Dallas but that kind of timing (and luck) is tricky.
RE: RE: I'm really not sure why folks  
.McL. : 9/19/2019 2:17 am : link
In comment 14586553 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
In comment 14586201 .McL. said:


Quote:



Personally I thought it was premature to get a QB in this year's draft. The team needed a lot more talent before being able to compete, and to fully take advantage of the pick's rookie contract. Which means we may be wasting DJ's and Saquan's rookie contract. Moves I questioned at the time, and still do.



I understand this line of thinking but a transition was needed from Eli and DG thinks DJ is the real deal. Ideally it would end up like Seattle with Wilson or Dallas but that kind of timing (and luck) is tricky.


Yes Eli is at the end, but would it have really mattered if the team continues to build the rest of the team. We were going to lose with Eli or with a successor. Why not wait another year or 2 for the successor at which time you are closer to competing?

And don't give me crap about you don't know where you will be picking in the draft next year. I have 2 answers to that. It was clear to me even before this year's draft that the Giants would likely have a top 10 pick next year or close to it. Also, the trades the made, they could have picked up more 1st round picks next year to give themselves more ammo. In addition, they can use future pick like thye did with Eli. The point is, where there is a will there is a way. I am never the least bit concerned about the cost to move up to pick a franchise QB.

Let me put it this way. If a certain pick in the draft has X amount of value. If you have that pick and you use it, you have spent X amount of value. If you come up with a package that equals X amount of value and you use that package to trade for the pick and use it, then you have still used X amount of value. It really doesn't matter where or how you came up with that value. Its all fungible.
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