Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

IMO Francesa was wrong on two counts

joeinpa : 9/18/2019 7:37 am
From day 1 Mike has been critical of the Giants for having Eli and Jones on the team. He claims it is the result of not having plan.

I disagreed with his take right along because the Giants believed they could contend for the play offs, in which case keeping Eli and getting the young quarterback made sense.

His criticism is misdirected. The Giants should be questioned as to how they looked at this roster and felt it was a contender, but his idea that you canít have an established veteran like Eli and the young rookie never made sense to me.

His second pt made yesterday is that this is a move to take the heat off themselves about winning this season because it s all about developing the kid now.

I disagree, I think the Giants believe Jones gives them the better chance to win now.

It wouldnít make sense to give up on a quarterback after 2 games in a season where you thought playoffs were a possibility unless the above is true.

As it turns out, all you who believed Eli should have been released were correct; the Giants once again miscalculated where they were.

They had a plan, it was just the wrong plan.


Coming from the wrong place...  
nzyme : 9/18/2019 7:38 am : link
His comments are coming from a place of malcontent with the ownership and the GM. He's not thinking clearly and it shows!
I think he is wrong  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 7:42 am : link
on the first point, you describe what I think the Giants' plan was. They did think they could compete, but this team sucks. They did this in 2017 too, the braintrust thought they had a Super Bowl contender on their hands, instead it was the worst team in the league and one of the worst seasons in franchise history. Horrible misjudgement.

His second point I think is dead on balls accurate. Giving Jones the nod after just two weeks is because they want to change the narrative of the season to development instead of competing. Buys time for Shurmur to lose more since expectations have now dropped to zero. I think Francesa has it right on point two.
Not a fan of Francesca  
GiantEgo : 9/18/2019 7:44 am : link
But I have to admit his rant after the draft accurately predicted what the regime is doing now. Basically using DJ to reset expectations after their plans have failed once again.

The way this is going down is a disservice to Eli and DJ.

Nope youíre wrong  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 9/18/2019 7:44 am : link
If you think Jones is coming into win games you have a rude awaking coming for the rest of this season.


This move is 100% about developing this young team and not winning games.

DG and Ownership made this messy situation.
Mike is all about Mike  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/18/2019 7:48 am : link
...

disagree on both points. While undoubtedly the second has truth in it, I don't think it is the reason. They see that DJ can do things that Eli can't and they want to get started on the transition. Frankly, holding both of his positions at the same time are logically inconsistent. Is developing the next QB the right move or not?
The truth is somewhere in the middle  
mattlawson : 9/18/2019 7:52 am : link
Itís a translation year plain and simple. The fact is that if they wanted this year to be primarily about developing the young quarterback, ideally you give him the best team around him to succeed. The line is improved but Eli is soaking up a ton of cap space to make other deals.

Management will say Eli has shown all the other things that we donít see. His professionalism. His work ethic. Media dealings. Being a good teammate. There are tangibles and intangibles they obviously feel are beneficial for Jones to learn from while Eli is in the building.

Iím not sure why people canít see it both ways.
RE: Mike is all about Mike  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 7:52 am : link
In comment 14585428 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
...

disagree on both points. While undoubtedly the second has truth in it, I don't think it is the reason. They see that DJ can do things that Eli can't and they want to get started on the transition. Frankly, holding both of his positions at the same time are logically inconsistent. Is developing the next QB the right move or not?


It is, they should have cut Eli loose. They thought they could compete and can not. The move this early shows they were wrong and the team is crap. This allows Shurmur to use Eli as the lightning rod one last time to buy more time to pad his losing record.
RE: Nope youíre wrong  
section125 : 9/18/2019 7:54 am : link
In comment 14585424 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
If you think Jones is coming into win games you have a rude awaking coming for the rest of this season.


This move is 100% about developing this young team and not winning games.

DG and Ownership made this messy situation.


He's not coming in to win games? He's going out there to go through the motions?

I believe Jones gives them a better chance to win than Eli does. That was a pathetic showing Sunday. Wobbling passes. A few knocked down at the LoS with one intercepted. Indecisive on pulling the trigger. Dying quails. Inability to throw on the run...
Windows open and close quickly in the NFL in the passing game. Did you see Allen break free on numerous occasions to extend plays and run from pressure, completing several passes while doing so. Not saying Jones will do as well as Allen. But he will do better than Eli.

Love the man and what he did for the Giants. Jones will give them a better chance to win while learning to play.
RE: RE: Nope youíre wrong  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 7:56 am : link
In comment 14585435 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14585424 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


If you think Jones is coming into win games you have a rude awaking coming for the rest of this season.


This move is 100% about developing this young team and not winning games.

DG and Ownership made this messy situation.



He's not coming in to win games? He's going out there to go through the motions?

I believe Jones gives them a better chance to win than Eli does. That was a pathetic showing Sunday. Wobbling passes. A few knocked down at the LoS with one intercepted. Indecisive on pulling the trigger. Dying quails. Inability to throw on the run...
Windows open and close quickly in the NFL in the passing game. Did you see Allen break free on numerous occasions to extend plays and run from pressure, completing several passes while doing so. Not saying Jones will do as well as Allen. But he will do better than Eli.

Love the man and what he did for the Giants. Jones will give them a better chance to win while learning to play.


we will see

The Giants have lost a ton with Eli as QB1 recently. So, there is no real argument for Eli since he they keep losing and he is old.

Jones giving them a better chance? Jury is way out on that one. Many are putting a lot of stock in the pre-season. The whole team looked good in preseason, they have beem hot garbage when the bullets fly for real.
the scariest point  
Shirk130 : 9/18/2019 8:05 am : link
is that Gettleman looked at this roster and thought, yeah we can make a run. Hah!
Gettleman was a genius on this board during pre-season  
WillieYoung : 9/18/2019 8:06 am : link
He got rid of the troublemakers (exactly what trouble did OV make?), restored the locker room and winning football would follow. How does the return for OBJ look now? Lawrence who is apparently wearing a cloaking device because he's invisible on the field; Peppers. who should borrow Lawrence's cloaking device to hide his tackling and coverage shortfalls and X-man who may looks promising but may regress in his second year the way BJ Hill has. What a dumpster fire. We're 6 point dogs against Tampa Bay.
RE: Gettleman was a genius on this board during pre-season  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 8:09 am : link
In comment 14585454 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
He got rid of the troublemakers (exactly what trouble did OV make?), restored the locker room and winning football would follow. How does the return for OBJ look now? Lawrence who is apparently wearing a cloaking device because he's invisible on the field; Peppers. who should borrow Lawrence's cloaking device to hide his tackling and coverage shortfalls and X-man who may looks promising but may regress in his second year the way BJ Hill has. What a dumpster fire. We're 6 point dogs against Tampa Bay.


in fairness, the o line is better and getting Zeitler is a big reason
and the defense  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 8:10 am : link
sucked with Vernon playing half a season
Unlike Shurmurís game plans  
Giantimistic : 9/18/2019 8:13 am : link
Plans change as different variables change. It is not as cut and dry as everyone is making it. Injuries happen, contract demands change, players donít pan out, Golden Tate suspension, ect... What if Golden Tate and Shepherd made a difference against Buffalo and the Giants won? Eli would still be starting.

One variable that changed thing was Jones great preseason. The Odel situation changes things. I think there were verbal plans about building up both lines and bringing in players in line with the culture they wanted to create for the long term. I think a lot of other factors and choices do change on a weekly basis.
RE: Unlike Shurmurís game plans  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 9/18/2019 8:21 am : link
In comment 14585464 Giantimistic said:
Quote:
Plans change as different variables change. It is not as cut and dry as everyone is making it. Injuries happen, contract demands change, players donít pan out, Golden Tate suspension, ect... What if Golden Tate and Shepherd made a difference against Buffalo and the Giants won? Eli would still be starting.

One variable that changed thing was Jones great preseason. The Odel situation changes things. I think there were verbal plans about building up both lines and bringing in players in line with the culture they wanted to create for the long term. I think a lot of other factors and choices do change on a weekly basis.


Golden Tate and Shepard are far from the answer on offense. They will help, but they arenít these amazing talents that everyone thinks they are. They are OK.
I think he was right  
Rong5611 : 9/18/2019 8:22 am : link
They had no choice, they needed to re-set the franchise and play Jones.

The Giants thought they were better than they are. They thought they would be better than last year and with a few breaks be in the hunt for the post-season. At the same time, they thought they could gradually develop Jones. They were absolutely wrong. That's on ownership, DG and Shurmur. We cannot fire the owners unfortunately. So, now its up to DG and Shurmur to produce.

Also, the kid looked great in the preseason, and I think they think they have something there. I think that was a HUGE factor in their decision. He needs to play.

Now, they need to show progress and get better. They will need to be patient with Jones. Winning the pre-season and the regular season are two entirely different things. He is going to make mistakes. He might win them some games, he is likely to lose more than his wins.

Final Thought - Bettcher is definitely on the hot seat IMO. Shurmur could go if they continue to get worse and finish with an abysmal record (1-15, 2-14, something like that).

Plans, expectations not a sure thing, always changing  
GeoMan999 : 9/18/2019 8:26 am : link
The difference between winning and losing to Buffalo may have been as simple as not having Golden Tate and Shepherd. Think about the dropped first down passes in the first half. It could have been a relatively close game, and one turnover could have made the difference.

Yes, the defense sucks so far. Did anyone really know that there would be such a hard transition for Deandre Baker? Plans and expectations change all the time.

The decision to make the changes now was a result of looking at the pros and cons. A big one to me were the fans and media screaming for a change now. And I think keeping Eli at a 500 regular season record was also a big factor....yes, I really believe that was part of the calculus and I am glad that it was.
RE: the scariest point  
The_Boss : 9/18/2019 8:33 am : link
In comment 14585450 Shirk130 said:
Quote:
is that Gettleman looked at this roster and thought, yeah we can make a run. Hah!


Not once, but fucking twice now. We wasted all of last year in the process. Meanwhile Philly and Dallas got better and we stayed in neutral or actually got worse.
Francesca  
djstat : 9/18/2019 8:48 am : link
is a piece of trash. He has ratings because he has a platform and people do not like him, but listen to him and call him. He knows nothing about football and is an incompetent pathetic talking head.
The root of Francesa's issues  
Matt in SGS : 9/18/2019 8:49 am : link
was that he was blindsided by the Jones pick and it exposed him for not being plugged in with the Giants. In previous years, he had better access to information with the Giants (looking at you Reese/Ross and friends).

If you want to piss off Francesa, refuse to kiss the ring and don't tell him what's going on so he can come off as being an all access guy. So if he doesn't have the access, that means he will trash anything that Gettleman says/does. The Giants will be a punching bag for him all year.

The reality is that in some cases his criticism isn't off base, particularly on the roster spot/salary for Eli and Shurmur as a coach. But he's doing it from the biased standpoint that he wants to discredit Gettleman, because Gettleman didn't give him special treatment and froze his dumb ass out.
Team is not winning  
djstat : 9/18/2019 8:49 am : link
Because the defense is awful and the coach is committed to pass first. Top WR's are not playing currently.
RE: Nope youíre wrong  
joeinpa : 9/18/2019 9:02 am : link
In comment 14585424 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
If you think Jones is coming into win games you have a rude awaking coming for the rest of this season.


This move is 100% about developing this young team and not winning games.

DG and Ownership made this messy situation.


Read a bit more carefully. I didnít state ďIĒ think they would be better
Shurmur and DG  
Justlurking : 9/18/2019 9:21 am : link
better hope Jones looks better on offense. If not they are gone. They have tethered themselves to Jones and if this team is a continued embarrassment they are gone. So while I think that they are trying to buy time, they also believe Jones gives them a better chance to win now.

They have been wrong about everything so far so no reason to trust them. But if Shurmur thinks his offense cant be run by Eli, he has to make this move or he's gone anyway.
I'm not a fan of MF's  
jcn56 : 9/18/2019 9:28 am : link
but he's nailed this one since day one pretty effectively.

He said that the team was no good - a lot of question marks on O, a defense that was incomplete and unproven. He was 100% right there.

He said that the Giants should have either gone with Eli and drafted something else, or parted ways with Eli and put Jones right in. They effectively did that 2 games in, while still paying Eli $23M and causing a huge circus. He's right here again.

I don't say this very often, but Francesa nailed this one. His delivery is awful, and his reaction to the pick - essentially that he was lied to - was beyond ridiculous, it was borderline insane. Everything else though, was absolutely right. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Jones Better Chance to Win?  
Samiam : 9/18/2019 9:29 am : link
Did he play against a 1st team defense in preseason? Did he face a real blitz ? I hope Iím wrong. Something here doesnít make sense. Dallas destroys the Giants, ok? The Bills game wasnít really close after the Bills took the lead. On Monday, Shurmur is on Francesa talking about team changes and Tuesday morning, Eli is benched? Lots of analysis here from a team that thought it could contend. I donít think the move is about Eli. I think they recognized this defense is as bad as there is in the league and they might as well lose with Jones and prepare for next season. Francesa pretty much had this right
Itís hard to imagine the offense not looking better with a more mobile  
Jim in Hoboken : 9/18/2019 9:42 am : link
QB, of course itís now Shurmurís job to devise a scheme a rookie QB can excel in.

But nobody should accuse the Giants of having a plan. Itíd be easy to ridicule them for simply being incompetent but I think itís worse than that because they insist on making moves that exactly counter decisions they purported to have thought long and hard about. Look at all the dead cap money, how can a GM get away with that?

Eli's inability to throw on the run was glaring.  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/18/2019 10:27 am : link
There was one he completed rolling to his right that no joke I've seen better throws in HS games.
RE  
gmenatlarge : 9/18/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14585660 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
QB, of course itís now Shurmurís job to devise a scheme a rookie QB can excel in.

But nobody should accuse the Giants of having a plan. Itíd be easy to ridicule them for simply being incompetent but I think itís worse than that because they insist on making moves that exactly counter decisions they purported to have thought long and hard about. Look at all the dead cap money, how can a GM get away with that?



+1 Especially coming on the heels of the OBJ trade "We didn't sign him just to trade him" well WHY?
RE: The root of Francesa's issues  
bceagle05 : 9/18/2019 10:33 am : link
In comment 14585539 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
was that he was blindsided by the Jones pick and it exposed him for not being plugged in with the Giants.


I agree with your take on Francesa/Giants, but the strange thing is Gettleman was on Francesa's show a few days before the draft and made it pretty obvious a QB would be drafted, without coming right out and saying it. I don't know why Mike was so blindsided by it.
I believe this whole situation is getting over-thought  
montanagiant : 9/18/2019 10:40 am : link
The Coaches and FO know we aren't going anywhere this year so they might as well get the kid some valuable experience with no pressure on him.
Of course, Mike may have dozed off  
bceagle05 : 9/18/2019 10:42 am : link
while Gettleman was explaining the draft strategy.
RE: Of course, Mike may have dozed off  
rocco8112 : 9/18/2019 11:04 am : link
In comment 14585866 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
while Gettleman was explaining the draft strategy.


haha

all the Francesa criticism is spot on, he is a huge arrogant prick

I still listen at work or in car basically everyday.
Back to the Corner