Its only Mara's pocketbook so I don't give a dam. Hell give Eli a raise
Are you seriously that dense? Have you never heard of the salary cap? It matters. Good teams manage it well. Bad teams, like the Giants, do not.
I couldn't care less about Mara's bank account, but I do want the Giants to field the best roster possible, and managing the cap well is an enormous part of that.
The Giants have the most dead cap room in the NFL. Had they released Eli they would have created 11.5 million in cap room but would also add 11 million more in dead money.
They are positioning themselves for 2020. This offseason they will have another draft plus plenty of cap room to address a few holes.
They'd be eating the dead money in a season when they've already made the choice to eat basically all of their dead money, so that part doesn't bother me - taking $34M in dead money to $45 isn't the same as going from $0 to $11M. They're already fielding a shitty roster, and now, for all intents and purposes, they're STILL carrying the dead money for Eli (in that he's not playing), but without the benefit of the cap room that it would have opened up.
And they don't have THAT much cap room for next year. They have basically the league average amount. There's a lot of open cap space next year (and a lot of free agents, which logically follows).
When you understand that you are at the beginning of a rebuild, your placeholder QB becomes a minor matter. There were several cheap placeholder options available. Many of us wanted to go with one of them. Doesn’t matter if we got our guy with the 2 pick or 6 pick - there was no reason to keep a $20+ Million placeholder on the team. It was all driven by sentimentality and a poor evaluation of our talent/timelines.
I don't think it was an obvious decision either way but I think the logic followed keeping Eli as placeholder for 2 reasons.
1. He's a class act and the best you can hope for in a veteran mentor. The Jets cut bait with Fitzpatrick when they got Darnold. Other guys like Keenum/Bridgewater/Tyrod would have been playing for their livelihood. None of them has actually been there and done that from playoff games, to Super Bowls, to the NY media, to having been in this system with these players last year. Eli has.
2. Eli's year last year was better than anything those guys have ever done. With another year in the system and a better OL there was a small shred of hope things would be better. On the opening drives each week it was. In glimpses each week he made some plays. Just not enough. And obviously nobody is winning shootouts here if the defense plays this bad.
Are those 2 factors worth $10-12m that could have been spent in FA on depth pickups? I say no personally given who those pickups would have likely been (likely a couple more Kareem Martin/Atoine Bethea/Mike Remmers). Especially when you factor in the risk that in March it was abundantly possible they didn't even pick a QB in round 1.
This is outright bullshit. Who was Collins' replacement when the Giants let him walk? Sometimes that's the nature of the game - you open a roster spot without having a replacement. Would they have just not been allowed to acquire another QB at all? At least hindsight includes some sight at all.
Do you honestly think finding a competent S in FA or draft is on the same planet as finding a starting QB?
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As for the alternatives, could any of them have done worse than 0-2?
Which players they could have gotten with the $10-15m saved are good enough that they wouldn't also still be 0-2? Golden Tate cost 40m over 4 years, plays probably the position of greatest need right now (hard to say we have so many) and if he wasn't suspended we'd be 0-2 just the same as whatever depth guys they added with the money saved from Eli.
RE: RE: RE: RE: What’s this “in hindsight” bullshit Â
This is outright bullshit. Who was Collins' replacement when the Giants let him walk? Sometimes that's the nature of the game - you open a roster spot without having a replacement. Would they have just not been allowed to acquire another QB at all? At least hindsight includes some sight at all.
Do you honestly think finding a competent S in FA or draft is on the same planet as finding a starting QB?
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As for the alternatives, could any of them have done worse than 0-2?
Which players they could have gotten with the $10-15m saved are good enough that they wouldn't also still be 0-2? Golden Tate cost 40m over 4 years, plays probably the position of greatest need right now (hard to say we have so many) and if he wasn't suspended we'd be 0-2 just the same as whatever depth guys they added with the money saved from Eli.
You're making my point for me. They could have been the same 0-2 with Tanney starting the first two games. We're not talking about finding a replacement franchise QB here - we're talking about finding someone to take snaps for two games. So yes, I think that specific role is even easier to fill than a starting safety that you fundamentally do intend to build with.
I wouldn't have advocated for spending the money this year. I'd have rolled it over to 2020 and let the roster bottom out this year with the mountain of dead money that Gettleman already absorbed this season. So I'm not going to play the game of identifying this past year's free agents because chasing victories to get from five wins to six with the 4th cheapest roster in the NFL was always a fool's errand.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What’s this “in hindsight” bullshit Â
I wouldn't have advocated for spending the money this year. I'd have rolled it over to 2020 and let the roster bottom out this year with the mountain of dead money that Gettleman already absorbed this season. So I'm not going to play the game of identifying this past year's free agents because chasing victories to get from five wins to six with the 4th cheapest roster in the NFL was always a fool's errand.
So you agree there was no urgent reason to cut him in March since they could still recoup most of that salary for next year right now if they cut him or trade him?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What’s this “in hindsight” bullshit Â
I wouldn't have advocated for spending the money this year. I'd have rolled it over to 2020 and let the roster bottom out this year with the mountain of dead money that Gettleman already absorbed this season. So I'm not going to play the game of identifying this past year's free agents because chasing victories to get from five wins to six with the 4th cheapest roster in the NFL was always a fool's errand.
So you agree there was no urgent reason to cut him in March since they could still recoup most of that salary for next year right now if they cut him or trade him?
They don't recoup a dime if they cut him now, and he has a no-trade clause. So, no, we don't agree.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
To each their own, and classy is nice, but I'd prefer the franchise prioritize winning.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
Brady is also probably the best to ever play the game and has shown zero evidence of not being able to continue to hang banners.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
Brady is also probably the best to ever play the game and has shown zero evidence of not being able to continue to hang banners.
That's all true, but not really pertinent to what he was saying.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
We could have very nicely and ceremoniously parted ways with Eli this off season. Different circumstances but look at how Peyton left Indy.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
I think, depending on how much stock you put in the speculative rumors surrounding the Garoppolo trade, Belichick was prepared to do exactly that.
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
We could have very nicely and ceremoniously parted ways with Eli this off season. Different circumstances but look at how Peyton left Indy.
2 things -
1. The Colts tried to bring Peyton back even with his injuries, he wouldn't restructure his contract.
2. If they were picking 6th instead of 1st (where they were guaranteed Luck) you can bet they would have handled things differently.
So the situations are not all that analogous. It's a lot easier to move on from someone when you have their replacement in the bag and there's a legitimate question as to whether or not they will even be healthy enough to play again.
The Giants were never going to unceremoniously cut their two times super bowl MVP in the offseason without giving him at least an opportunity to win a couple games with a reasonable offensive line. It wasn't a waste, it was the right thing to do. That's what you do for a player who's played more years than any player in the history of the franchise and won 2 super bowl MVPs in the manner in which he won them. Do you see the the manner in which he's handling this? This is why he's got an extra 23 million dollars that everyone seems so bent about. If you are as great as Eli Manning, play as long as you have and represent the franchise the way Eli has, this is the reward, it's the right thing to do, deal with it.
Why couldn't they have done it with a flashy goodbye tribute and number retirement ceremony
It appears obvious ownership felt El deserved a shot to play behind a serviceable offensive line. After what he's done for the franchise, I don't know how anyone could get upset by that. Their faith and Eli is being rewarded right now. Have you ever seen a starting QB face the media the way Eli did after being benched? That man is going to take the demotion with class and try his best to be the very best possible backup, run the scout team like a champ. The rest of the team is going to see one of the greatest players in the history of the franchise display, nothing but team first behavior. It's worth 23 million.
Why couldn't they have done it with a flashy goodbye tribute and number retirement ceremony
It appears obvious ownership felt El deserved a shot to play behind a serviceable offensive line. After what he's done for the franchise, I don't know how anyone could get upset by that. Their faith and Eli is being rewarded right now. Have you ever seen a starting QB face the media the way Eli did after being benched? That man is going to take the demotion with class and try his best to be the very best possible backup, run the scout team like a champ. The rest of the team is going to see one of the greatest players in the history of the franchise display, nothing but team first behavior. It's worth 23 million.
I'm upset because their good intentions just caused more pain for Eli, the fans and to a lesser extent, the speed of the turn around.
RE: RE: RE: why would it have been unceremonious? Â
I'm upset because their good intentions just caused more pain for Eli, the fans and to a lesser extent, the speed of the turn around.
Read Eli's transcript from yesterday - he plainly said he'd take the chance over again to try to win games here this year, knowing he only got 2 games, without any hedging (he didn't give a canned non-answer, he answered the question and while he always says the right things I don't think he's ever not truthful). He has a family that's settled here and a NTC some of the beat writers don't think he'd waive. I think it would have caused him more pain to get cut and go to another team - likely a team just as bad and probably similarly being in limbo of being benched. He got a fair chance to finish out his career where he wanted to and I don't think it's a stretch to think that was the best option he had since he wanted to keep playing. If he ended up in the Miami shit show or Denver or wherever I think it'd have been a lot more painful, especially on the side of handling his family situation.
As a fan I'm glad we didn't cut him for an inferior player like Fitzpatrick and I'm also glad Jones gets to share a QB room with him.
And speed of turnaround is currently Daniel Jones missing out on starting 2 games, which may have happened with any other veteran any way.
The only downside to keeping Eli in my view was the money, which we've all been over ad nauseam. I don't see a good enough alternative to use of the money (plus we didn't have Jones yet in March), so I would have kept Eli.
and Engram seemingly ready to meet higher expectations, they thought they could raise the level of offense play to the point Eli could put points on the board, and that would subsequently give DJ a higher-performing machine to take over.
Didn't work out. Watch the Ford vs. Ferrari movie....it's time to stop testing in hopes of getting everything perfect; race the thing.
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In comment 14585770 PatersonPlank said:
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Its only Mara's pocketbook so I don't give a dam. Hell give Eli a raise
Are you seriously that dense? Have you never heard of the salary cap? It matters. Good teams manage it well. Bad teams, like the Giants, do not.
I couldn't care less about Mara's bank account, but I do want the Giants to field the best roster possible, and managing the cap well is an enormous part of that.
The Giants have the most dead cap room in the NFL. Had they released Eli they would have created 11.5 million in cap room but would also add 11 million more in dead money.
They are positioning themselves for 2020. This offseason they will have another draft plus plenty of cap room to address a few holes.
They'd be eating the dead money in a season when they've already made the choice to eat basically all of their dead money, so that part doesn't bother me - taking $34M in dead money to $45 isn't the same as going from $0 to $11M. They're already fielding a shitty roster, and now, for all intents and purposes, they're STILL carrying the dead money for Eli (in that he's not playing), but without the benefit of the cap room that it would have opened up.
And they don't have THAT much cap room for next year. They have basically the league average amount. There's a lot of open cap space next year (and a lot of free agents, which logically follows).
Disagree.
When you understand that you are at the beginning of a rebuild, your placeholder QB becomes a minor matter. There were several cheap placeholder options available. Many of us wanted to go with one of them. Doesn’t matter if we got our guy with the 2 pick or 6 pick - there was no reason to keep a $20+ Million placeholder on the team. It was all driven by sentimentality and a poor evaluation of our talent/timelines.
I don't think it was an obvious decision either way but I think the logic followed keeping Eli as placeholder for 2 reasons.
1. He's a class act and the best you can hope for in a veteran mentor. The Jets cut bait with Fitzpatrick when they got Darnold. Other guys like Keenum/Bridgewater/Tyrod would have been playing for their livelihood. None of them has actually been there and done that from playoff games, to Super Bowls, to the NY media, to having been in this system with these players last year. Eli has.
2. Eli's year last year was better than anything those guys have ever done. With another year in the system and a better OL there was a small shred of hope things would be better. On the opening drives each week it was. In glimpses each week he made some plays. Just not enough. And obviously nobody is winning shootouts here if the defense plays this bad.
Are those 2 factors worth $10-12m that could have been spent in FA on depth pickups? I say no personally given who those pickups would have likely been (likely a couple more Kareem Martin/Atoine Bethea/Mike Remmers). Especially when you factor in the risk that in March it was abundantly possible they didn't even pick a QB in round 1.
This is outright bullshit. Who was Collins' replacement when the Giants let him walk? Sometimes that's the nature of the game - you open a roster spot without having a replacement. Would they have just not been allowed to acquire another QB at all? At least hindsight includes some sight at all.
Do you honestly think finding a competent S in FA or draft is on the same planet as finding a starting QB?
Which players they could have gotten with the $10-15m saved are good enough that they wouldn't also still be 0-2? Golden Tate cost 40m over 4 years, plays probably the position of greatest need right now (hard to say we have so many) and if he wasn't suspended we'd be 0-2 just the same as whatever depth guys they added with the money saved from Eli.
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This is outright bullshit. Who was Collins' replacement when the Giants let him walk? Sometimes that's the nature of the game - you open a roster spot without having a replacement. Would they have just not been allowed to acquire another QB at all? At least hindsight includes some sight at all.
Do you honestly think finding a competent S in FA or draft is on the same planet as finding a starting QB?
Quote:
As for the alternatives, could any of them have done worse than 0-2?
Which players they could have gotten with the $10-15m saved are good enough that they wouldn't also still be 0-2? Golden Tate cost 40m over 4 years, plays probably the position of greatest need right now (hard to say we have so many) and if he wasn't suspended we'd be 0-2 just the same as whatever depth guys they added with the money saved from Eli.
You're making my point for me. They could have been the same 0-2 with Tanney starting the first two games. We're not talking about finding a replacement franchise QB here - we're talking about finding someone to take snaps for two games. So yes, I think that specific role is even easier to fill than a starting safety that you fundamentally do intend to build with.
I wouldn't have advocated for spending the money this year. I'd have rolled it over to 2020 and let the roster bottom out this year with the mountain of dead money that Gettleman already absorbed this season. So I'm not going to play the game of identifying this past year's free agents because chasing victories to get from five wins to six with the 4th cheapest roster in the NFL was always a fool's errand.
I wouldn't have advocated for spending the money this year. I'd have rolled it over to 2020 and let the roster bottom out this year with the mountain of dead money that Gettleman already absorbed this season. So I'm not going to play the game of identifying this past year's free agents because chasing victories to get from five wins to six with the 4th cheapest roster in the NFL was always a fool's errand.
So you agree there was no urgent reason to cut him in March since they could still recoup most of that salary for next year right now if they cut him or trade him?
Quote:
I wouldn't have advocated for spending the money this year. I'd have rolled it over to 2020 and let the roster bottom out this year with the mountain of dead money that Gettleman already absorbed this season. So I'm not going to play the game of identifying this past year's free agents because chasing victories to get from five wins to six with the 4th cheapest roster in the NFL was always a fool's errand.
So you agree there was no urgent reason to cut him in March since they could still recoup most of that salary for next year right now if they cut him or trade him?
They don't recoup a dime if they cut him now, and he has a no-trade clause. So, no, we don't agree.
To each their own, and classy is nice, but I'd prefer the franchise prioritize winning.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
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good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
Brady is also probably the best to ever play the game and has shown zero evidence of not being able to continue to hang banners.
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In comment 14587080 xman said:
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good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
Brady is also probably the best to ever play the game and has shown zero evidence of not being able to continue to hang banners.
That's all true, but not really pertinent to what he was saying.
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good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
We could have very nicely and ceremoniously parted ways with Eli this off season. Different circumstances but look at how Peyton left Indy.
Quote:
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
I think, depending on how much stock you put in the speculative rumors surrounding the Garoppolo trade, Belichick was prepared to do exactly that.
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In comment 14587080 xman said:
Quote:
good PR rather then cutting. Not necessarily a winning philosophy but it makes for a good classy image showing loyalty. NE would not got that route winning is everything.
I think I would bet money that NE will not unceremoniously boot Brady out the door.
We could have very nicely and ceremoniously parted ways with Eli this off season. Different circumstances but look at how Peyton left Indy.
2 things -
1. The Colts tried to bring Peyton back even with his injuries, he wouldn't restructure his contract.
2. If they were picking 6th instead of 1st (where they were guaranteed Luck) you can bet they would have handled things differently.
So the situations are not all that analogous. It's a lot easier to move on from someone when you have their replacement in the bag and there's a legitimate question as to whether or not they will even be healthy enough to play again.
He'd have had to retire for one thing.
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Why couldn't they have done it with a flashy goodbye tribute and number retirement ceremony
It appears obvious ownership felt El deserved a shot to play behind a serviceable offensive line. After what he's done for the franchise, I don't know how anyone could get upset by that. Their faith and Eli is being rewarded right now. Have you ever seen a starting QB face the media the way Eli did after being benched? That man is going to take the demotion with class and try his best to be the very best possible backup, run the scout team like a champ. The rest of the team is going to see one of the greatest players in the history of the franchise display, nothing but team first behavior. It's worth 23 million.
I'm upset because their good intentions just caused more pain for Eli, the fans and to a lesser extent, the speed of the turn around.
I'm upset because their good intentions just caused more pain for Eli, the fans and to a lesser extent, the speed of the turn around.
Read Eli's transcript from yesterday - he plainly said he'd take the chance over again to try to win games here this year, knowing he only got 2 games, without any hedging (he didn't give a canned non-answer, he answered the question and while he always says the right things I don't think he's ever not truthful). He has a family that's settled here and a NTC some of the beat writers don't think he'd waive. I think it would have caused him more pain to get cut and go to another team - likely a team just as bad and probably similarly being in limbo of being benched. He got a fair chance to finish out his career where he wanted to and I don't think it's a stretch to think that was the best option he had since he wanted to keep playing. If he ended up in the Miami shit show or Denver or wherever I think it'd have been a lot more painful, especially on the side of handling his family situation.
As a fan I'm glad we didn't cut him for an inferior player like Fitzpatrick and I'm also glad Jones gets to share a QB room with him.
And speed of turnaround is currently Daniel Jones missing out on starting 2 games, which may have happened with any other veteran any way.
The only downside to keeping Eli in my view was the money, which we've all been over ad nauseam. I don't see a good enough alternative to use of the money (plus we didn't have Jones yet in March), so I would have kept Eli.
Hopefully we will have a new, more positive phrase to repeat over and over soon.
Hopefully we will have a new, more positive phrase to repeat over and over soon.
Didn't work out. Watch the Ford vs. Ferrari movie....it's time to stop testing in hopes of getting everything perfect; race the thing.