seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Then that sounds as if he lied his way into getting the job and was successful in pulling the con over the head of management.
The question in the interview had to have been (you hope) posed like this:
Management: "Do you think you can run your offense and be able to work with and be successful with Eli as the QB?"
Shurmur: "Yes."
Nothing physically with the QB has changed the last two years. Now suddenly, that isn't the case anymore. His playbook is more open than before? Which means to me it really wasn't the case to start with.
Yes. Hopefully, if Shurmur requires a specific skill set in order to be successful, then hopefully Daniel Jones meets them. My point was, before some got all defensive, was shouldn’t a great head coach be able to adapt? This btw is a criticism I see often about Shurmur here and elsewhere.
Bingo. There is this myth perpetuated that good coaches mold their schemes to the roster they have. That list is one coach, Billy B. Everyone else has their schemes and needs their players to run it. If I remember correctly after the draft last year, Shurmur alluded to the fact he like Josh Allen. It is so painfully obvious he wants to run bootlegs all day, some RPO, maybe read option with Saquon here and there. Can 't do that with Eli.
Other than the fact that, outside his mobility, Josh Allen is a terrible fir for Shurmur's offense. Shurmur wants the ball out quickly and accurately, while Allen holds the ball too long and has accuracy issues. The lengths some will go to take a shot at Eli is odd, to say the least.
PS believes he can create accuracy in his QBs schematically. It is why Eli's completion percentage is better than it has been. He does a tremendous job of getting WR's open when he can move the pocket. I don't know why you think that PS liking Allen is a shot at Eli.
RE: RE: That changing the narrative conspiracy stuff was speculative trash Â
They want to win in 2019. This isn’t experience for experience sake.
Quote:
What did you expect him to say..after 2 games we're throwing in the towel?? This gives this coach and GM a stay of execution for this season and next. I hope it works out for both of them because we would have moved in a positive direction as an organization. But time will tell and PS track record isn't the best...hope he makes it
That wouldn’t explain why week 3. Maybe by week 5-8. But not so soon. They want to win now and they believe this is the best path forward.
RE: Defensive? I made that comment before you said great coaches Â
mold their players to their scheme. It is always bandied about, but that isn't the reality of the situation. Now if you have a great player you find ways to make him fit in your scheme. Eli is no longer that. If he was still a great pocket passer I'm sure he'd be able to make it work.
I shouldn’t have called you defensive. I apologize. Baldy touched on this too though, albeit indirectly. Eli dropped back and there was nothing. Maybe a running QB can make something happen but it’s still within Shurmur’s scheme. Even Arians said this casually in his presser. Different QB, but it’s still Shurmur’s offense. I’m just on the fence about Shurmur. More so with each passing week.
I don't think it's too tough to figure out that Shurmur prefers Jones and thinks he's a better fit for what he wants to do offensively.
It probably wasn't his decision to start Eli or even keep him around this year. I'm sure he has immense respect for Eli and his career, etc. But that's not 'his' guy. He and Gettleman obviously identified Jones in the draft as the guy they wanted, and now he's here.
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
There are probably RPO elements and some other things that Shurmur has in the playbook, but didn't call/felt he couldn't use because of how heavy footed Eli is at this point.
I think that's what he means when he says he's comfortable opening up the whole thing with Daniel under center.
He probably figured he could still make it work well enough with Eli, but I'm sure he stayed away from certain calls and stuck to things he felt were more in Eli's wheelhouse.
seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
We have tons of data on what PS likes to run offensively. Eli absolutely did limit his playbook.
That may very well be, but I don't think that is what he meant by that statement. I think he was referring to the fact that he will not have to limit the playbook for a rookie QB. He's not going out of his way to trash Eli, unlike some on BBI.
I liked his response to the questions about approval from Â
He comes over as too nonchalant and condescending in pressers for me. Also I see nothing in his game management so far that makes me think he can be a head coach
seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
Is it really that hard for some of you to refrain from the over reactive name calling when someone presents their opinion?
seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
Is it really that hard for some of you to refrain from the over reactive name calling when someone presents their opinion?
Unfortunately the answer to your question is yes. Its the "you're either with us or against us" mob mentality
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
I believe this is true as well. In fact I don't think DG/PS necessarily wanted Eli as the QB as far back as the beginning of last season.
I
PS believes he can create accuracy in his QBs schematically. It is why Eli's completion percentage is better than it has been. He does a tremendous job of getting WR's open when he can move the pocket. I don't know why you think that PS liking Allen is a shot at Eli.
I didn't say that PS liking Allen was a shot at Eli, my reference was you taking a shot at Eli. Sure, PS can help with accuracy, but he doesn't want a scatter-armed QB, and he certainly doesn't want one who holds the ball as long as Allen does. If PS's offense is so good at getting WR's open, it certainly wasn't apparent on Sunday.
"He (DJ) has the ability to run our entire offense..."
I read deeply between the lines there...
I think he means they won't have to limit the playbook given that he is a rookie. Maybe it was a reference to plays he couldn't call with Eli, but I doubt it.
I'd like to think this too and NOT READ DEEPLY BETWEEN THE LINES. Otherwise it sounds like hes throwing Eli under the bus in his FIRST post eli press conference. Not the sign of a good coach or person.
I hope he plays a lot better than Eli did as a rookie. I'm relieved we don't have to watch Eli have no chance to win each week it's been going on for way too long. I just wish Eli wasn't brought back for this year. Oh well we had to watch Jeter hit 2nd all of 2014 so it's not like we haven't seen this before.
having a rookie QB probably bought Shurmer a longer leash as HC. Not saying it was the main factor, but it's probably a side benefit he's aware of.
And when you are 15-34 as a coach going into the season, you have to take every measure against the possibility of getting that pink slip if the organization's original plan gets out of hand with too many losses.
He had this card to play, and he's using it. Hopefully it works out.
I don't think it's too tough to figure out that Shurmur prefers Jones and thinks he's a better fit for what he wants to do offensively.
It probably wasn't his decision to start Eli or even keep him around this year. I'm sure he has immense respect for Eli and his career, etc. But that's not 'his' guy. He and Gettleman obviously identified Jones in the draft as the guy they wanted, and now he's here.
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
There are probably RPO elements and some other things that Shurmur has in the playbook, but didn't call/felt he couldn't use because of how heavy footed Eli is at this point.
I think that's what he means when he says he's comfortable opening up the whole thing with Daniel under center.
He probably figured he could still make it work well enough with Eli, but I'm sure he stayed away from certain calls and stuck to things he felt were more in Eli's wheelhouse.
We're going to find out soon enough.
So we need to tailor the team to fit the guy with the .300 winning percentage? Perfect.
By all means start Jones. They spent the #6 pick in the whole draft on him so he needs to play. Ponder if you will that we could have made Shurmur happy with Case Keenum and spent the pick elsewhere.
I
PS believes he can create accuracy in his QBs schematically. It is why Eli's completion percentage is better than it has been. He does a tremendous job of getting WR's open when he can move the pocket. I don't know why you think that PS liking Allen is a shot at Eli.
I didn't say that PS liking Allen was a shot at Eli, my reference was you taking a shot at Eli. Sure, PS can help with accuracy, but he doesn't want a scatter-armed QB, and he certainly doesn't want one who holds the ball as long as Allen does. If PS's offense is so good at getting WR's open, it certainly wasn't apparent on Sunday.
He likes to get WR's open in the bootleg and having WR's flood the playside of the field at all levels. Also likes to run bootleg playaction on early downs which should be highly effective with Saquon. I'm very optimistic about the offense. DJ will have his struggles, but at least we won't look handcuffed out there.
poorly understood defense? maybe i missed it, and it isn’t the news of the day, but giants are playing terrible defense. What is the hc doing about the dc’s playbook and the players? that seems to me to be a very legitimate and pressing question as well.
RE: Just remember one thing about Pat Shurmur... Â
...his ass is on the line THIS season, and if he goes 4-12 or worse he is gone.
I'd love to agree with you here but I think he's got longer and now especially with Jones at QB. He probably could have given himself a longer leash of he'd delayed the switch a week or two.
RE: what is schurmer going to do about bettcher seemingly too complex and Â
poorly understood defense? maybe i missed it, and it isn’t the news of the day, but giants are playing terrible defense. What is the hc doing about the dc’s playbook and the players? that seems to me to be a very legitimate and pressing question as well.
I do agree with this. Maybe Jones will be able to keep the offense on the field longer by extending drives with his mobility, but if not the spot light will fall HARD on the Defense and Bettcher. He's the next scapegoat. And say what you want about DJ facing Bowles for his first game, I think Winston will be the most Mobile QB we've seen thus far and could absolutely destroy us....if he's on.
seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
Is it really that hard for some of you to refrain from the over reactive name calling when someone presents their opinion?
Unfortunately the answer to your question is yes. Its the "you're either with us or against us" mob mentality
Most here are pretty respectful and capable of seeing multiples sides, but holy cow the ones who don’t...
RE: RE: Just remember one thing about Pat Shurmur... Â
...his ass is on the line THIS season, and if he goes 4-12 or worse he is gone.
I'd love to agree with you here but I think he's got longer and now especially with Jones at QB. He probably could have given himself a longer leash of he'd delayed the switch a week or two.
I was thinking more like two years ... but not to a winning record, to a Super Bowl. Okay, getting into the playoffs would keep him around, but how long it takes him to get a Super Bowl will determine his "permanent record" historically among Giants fans. And if that demographic keeps trending the way BBI comments suggests it is, he'd better hope he can get the team to take him there sooner rather than later.
"He (DJ) has the ability to run our entire offense..."
I read deeply between the lines there...
Bingo. There is this myth perpetuated that good coaches mold their schemes to the roster they have. That list is one coach, Billy B. Everyone else has their schemes and needs their players to run it. If I remember correctly after the draft last year, Shurmur alluded to the fact he like Josh Allen. It is so painfully obvious he wants to run bootlegs all day, some RPO, maybe read option with Saquon here and there. Can 't do that with Eli.
I think it was said of Don Shula, "he can take his'n and beat your'n, and then take your'n and beat his'n".
seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
For the change so we can fire this head coach and at least try again to hire the right coach, I hope it doesn't take firing the GM, I hope it is ownership that interfered with Gettleman rebuilding this team, because if it's not he has not done a good job at all.
Shurmur inherited a far from perfect situation. People are so negative on this site and really do not have all the facts regarding Shurmur. How many teams have great HC’s? I remember people complaining about Coughlin’s play calling and clock management. Do you really think people were knocking down Mara’s door to coach this mess? Let’s see how the rest of the year plays out before we fire everyone. Fans are tired of losing but now get to see if we have a QB that can lead this team for the next 10 years.
I don't think it's too tough to figure out that Shurmur prefers Jones and thinks he's a better fit for what he wants to do offensively.
It probably wasn't his decision to start Eli or even keep him around this year. I'm sure he has immense respect for Eli and his career, etc. But that's not 'his' guy. He and Gettleman obviously identified Jones in the draft as the guy they wanted, and now he's here.
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
There are probably RPO elements and some other things that Shurmur has in the playbook, but didn't call/felt he couldn't use because of how heavy footed Eli is at this point.
I think that's what he means when he says he's comfortable opening up the whole thing with Daniel under center.
He probably figured he could still make it work well enough with Eli, but I'm sure he stayed away from certain calls and stuck to things he felt were more in Eli's wheelhouse.
We're going to find out soon enough.
So we need to tailor the team to fit the guy with the .300 winning percentage? Perfect.
By all means start Jones. They spent the #6 pick in the whole draft on him so he needs to play. Ponder if you will that we could have made Shurmur happy with Case Keenum and spent the pick elsewhere.
Who said we needed to tailor the team to Shurmur's offense?
Obviously someone didn't want to.. otherwise Manning wouldn't have been the starter again. I think it's pretty clear which QB the coach thinks is a better fit for the playbook.
There's an obvious disconnect at the top here and like I said in that prior post, I feel fairly confident that Gettleman/Shurmur and Mara didn't have the same view on how to proceed with (or without) Eli and they probably (stupidly, I might add..) found this as some sort of middle-ground compromise.
In many cases, a new GM/HC tandem will be accompanied by a new QB. Or at least the coach will. Much like Coughlin and Eli walked into the building at the same time. But, in 2016 we promoted McAdoo whose offense was a crappy fit for Eli. Eli went from one of his best years in 2015 to suddenly looking like the end was very near. Whose decision was that?
Probably the same person who hired Pat Shurmur but also wanted Eli to remain the starting QB....
Case Keenum should never have been an option. Either they were going to give it another go with Eli or draft someone. I guess they didn't want to commit fully to either of those approaches, so they did both.
Now all of this bullshit should be in the rear view and the coach has no more excuses. He's got his QB in there now. Either we start making improvements or it's time to start looking elsewhere.
Case Keenum should never have been an option. Either they were going to give it another go with Eli or draft someone. I guess they didn't want to commit fully to either of those approaches, so they did both.
Now all of this bullshit should be in the rear view and the coach has no more excuses. He's got his QB in there now. Either we start making improvements or it's time to start looking elsewhere.
Agreed, if the team doesn't show improvement, especially the offense, then I think Shurmur should be replaced at season's end. There are some very good options available and the Giants can't afford to waste Barkley's prime.
your post, I was about to respond that at least all this bullshit is now in the rear view and Mara's hands are officially off, but you beat me to the punch. I think it is very clear that DG/Shurmur wanted to move on, but Mara meddled. I said it before, but DG's MO isn't exactly to hold onto guys like Eli in this type of situation. Not at the salary Eli was making. Shurmur is clearly ecstatic (as far as he gets) to put his QB in.
2 coaches in a row that wouldn’t build an offense around Eli?
Shouldn't that tell you that the issue ISN'T the coach?
Lol right. We got two coaches that were clearly flustered with having been saddled with Eli as their QB, but it is on the coaches. One coach has a pretty impressive track record as an offensive coordinator working with shit at the QB position.
very interested to see if we can get some additional Â
separation with receivers with improved mobility, more would be good and any other wrinkles with RPO and SB. Hopefully we have not been hamstrung like this for years. But first thing is to get through the rookie miscues, fumbles, interceptions and other annoying crap.
"He (DJ) has the ability to run our entire offense..."
I read deeply between the lines there...
Bingo. There is this myth perpetuated that good coaches mold their schemes to the roster they have. That list is one coach, Billy B. Everyone else has their schemes and needs their players to run it. If I remember correctly after the draft last year, Shurmur alluded to the fact he like Josh Allen. It is so painfully obvious he wants to run bootlegs all day, some RPO, maybe read option with Saquon here and there. Can 't do that with Eli.
It's not a myth. Good coaches see their players strengths and put them in positions that best utilize those strengths. They also do similar when coming up with a game plan to defeat that weeks opponent.
They don't try and pound a share peg into a round hole. They figure out something that will work or they'll die on the hill with their "scheme" if they can't.
Eman....or they draft a new QB that fits their scheme that Â
isn't a shell of his former self. Say what you want, but I only can think of two coaches in the NFL that are scheme diverse and that are Billy B and Gregg Williams. Everyone else has their schemes they like to run and do best when they have players to fit those schemes. Of course you try to do your best to fit those players into those schemes and put them in a position to win, but sometimes you are literally trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Eli is like that for most offenses now.
RE: Eman....or they draft a new QB that fits their scheme that Â
isn't a shell of his former self. Say what you want, but I only can think of two coaches in the NFL that are scheme diverse and that are Billy B and Gregg Williams. Everyone else has their schemes they like to run and do best when they have players to fit those schemes. Of course you try to do your best to fit those players into those schemes and put them in a position to win, but sometimes you are literally trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Eli is like that for most offenses now.
Well BB is the greatest modern coach and possibly the greatest coach ever. Maybe just maybe there's a reason for that and he's doing something right? He's figured out all these "schemes" and like a chameleon just adapts what he has to beat them.
I'm sure he drafts his kind of players but IMO those are guys who will but in to doing what it takes and don't have to be the star. Just find guys who do specific jobs really well and use them in those jobs when needed.
Look at another sport and a guy like Pat Riley. He was great with the Lakers and their running gunning Showtime but when he came to the Knicks he didn't have that kind of team so he adapted. His Knicks played a ferocious D and grinderd every game. A complete 180 degree difference and he got everything he could from those teams and was successful at it. If not for Jordan, he gets banners hung in the Garden too IMO.
RE: Eman....or they draft a new QB that fits their scheme that Â
isn't a shell of his former self. Say what you want, but I only can think of two coaches in the NFL that are scheme diverse and that are Billy B and Gregg Williams. Everyone else has their schemes they like to run and do best when they have players to fit those schemes. Of course you try to do your best to fit those players into those schemes and put them in a position to win, but sometimes you are literally trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Eli is like that for most offenses now.
Zeke you're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that and usually agree but this time I have to differ a bit.
I think maybe instead of saying everyone else and except for BB, we should be asking what the hell is BB doing the others aren't? Clearly he's on to something and doing it right, and maybe it's the other guys who need to figure it out.
Look at the 90 Defense. In the 1st playoff game vs the Bears he wasn't tied to his 3-4 scheme, instead he came out in a 4-3, baffled the Bears and shut them down. Then in the SB he came up with the all time plan to stop the Bills. All while using the players he had but adapting in the best way to get a win.
He's eating these other coaches lunches year in year out. While they're busy with their schemes and trying to be the smartest guys in the room and reinventing the wheel, BB just adapts to whatever it takes to beat them and racks up SB trophies along the way.
I think instead of looking at him as an outlier and just thinking yeah it's BB, we should be trying to figure out what he's doing and copying that. He's obviously doing it right.
Just my .02
The truly great coaches do it, but there are only a handful of them. Â
But on the flip side you can say the same thing about players. A truly great player is going to be scheme diverse, while everyone else is going to be in the right scheme to take advantage of their talents.
If you could have 100 players on a roster, it is a lot easier to say you can fit your schemes to the players, but you only get 53. Gregg Williams, wherever he goes, generally looks at his defensive roster and than starts to build a scheme around that and brings in and gets rid of players that will fit that scheme. You don't want half your edge players to be 4/3 defensive ends and the other rush linebackers.
It's a limited slip differential which distributes power equally to both the right and left tires. The '64 Skylark had a regular differential, which, anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, you step on the gas, one tire spins, the other tire does nothing.
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seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Then that sounds as if he lied his way into getting the job and was successful in pulling the con over the head of management.
The question in the interview had to have been (you hope) posed like this:
Management: "Do you think you can run your offense and be able to work with and be successful with Eli as the QB?"
Shurmur: "Yes."
Nothing physically with the QB has changed the last two years. Now suddenly, that isn't the case anymore. His playbook is more open than before? Which means to me it really wasn't the case to start with.
Yes. Hopefully, if Shurmur requires a specific skill set in order to be successful, then hopefully Daniel Jones meets them. My point was, before some got all defensive, was shouldn’t a great head coach be able to adapt? This btw is a criticism I see often about Shurmur here and elsewhere.
Quote:
Bingo. There is this myth perpetuated that good coaches mold their schemes to the roster they have. That list is one coach, Billy B. Everyone else has their schemes and needs their players to run it. If I remember correctly after the draft last year, Shurmur alluded to the fact he like Josh Allen. It is so painfully obvious he wants to run bootlegs all day, some RPO, maybe read option with Saquon here and there. Can 't do that with Eli.
Other than the fact that, outside his mobility, Josh Allen is a terrible fir for Shurmur's offense. Shurmur wants the ball out quickly and accurately, while Allen holds the ball too long and has accuracy issues. The lengths some will go to take a shot at Eli is odd, to say the least.
PS believes he can create accuracy in his QBs schematically. It is why Eli's completion percentage is better than it has been. He does a tremendous job of getting WR's open when he can move the pocket. I don't know why you think that PS liking Allen is a shot at Eli.
Quote:
They want to win in 2019. This isn’t experience for experience sake.
What did you expect him to say..after 2 games we're throwing in the towel?? This gives this coach and GM a stay of execution for this season and next. I hope it works out for both of them because we would have moved in a positive direction as an organization. But time will tell and PS track record isn't the best...hope he makes it
That wouldn’t explain why week 3. Maybe by week 5-8. But not so soon. They want to win now and they believe this is the best path forward.
I shouldn’t have called you defensive. I apologize. Baldy touched on this too though, albeit indirectly. Eli dropped back and there was nothing. Maybe a running QB can make something happen but it’s still within Shurmur’s scheme. Even Arians said this casually in his presser. Different QB, but it’s still Shurmur’s offense. I’m just on the fence about Shurmur. More so with each passing week.
It probably wasn't his decision to start Eli or even keep him around this year. I'm sure he has immense respect for Eli and his career, etc. But that's not 'his' guy. He and Gettleman obviously identified Jones in the draft as the guy they wanted, and now he's here.
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
There are probably RPO elements and some other things that Shurmur has in the playbook, but didn't call/felt he couldn't use because of how heavy footed Eli is at this point.
I think that's what he means when he says he's comfortable opening up the whole thing with Daniel under center.
He probably figured he could still make it work well enough with Eli, but I'm sure he stayed away from certain calls and stuck to things he felt were more in Eli's wheelhouse.
We're going to find out soon enough.
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
We have tons of data on what PS likes to run offensively. Eli absolutely did limit his playbook.
That may very well be, but I don't think that is what he meant by that statement. I think he was referring to the fact that he will not have to limit the playbook for a rookie QB. He's not going out of his way to trash Eli, unlike some on BBI.
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seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
Is it really that hard for some of you to refrain from the over reactive name calling when someone presents their opinion?
Quote:
In comment 14586228 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
Is it really that hard for some of you to refrain from the over reactive name calling when someone presents their opinion?
Unfortunately the answer to your question is yes. Its the "you're either with us or against us" mob mentality
I believe this is true as well. In fact I don't think DG/PS necessarily wanted Eli as the QB as far back as the beginning of last season.
PS believes he can create accuracy in his QBs schematically. It is why Eli's completion percentage is better than it has been. He does a tremendous job of getting WR's open when he can move the pocket. I don't know why you think that PS liking Allen is a shot at Eli.
I didn't say that PS liking Allen was a shot at Eli, my reference was you taking a shot at Eli. Sure, PS can help with accuracy, but he doesn't want a scatter-armed QB, and he certainly doesn't want one who holds the ball as long as Allen does. If PS's offense is so good at getting WR's open, it certainly wasn't apparent on Sunday.
Quote:
from Shurmur...
"He (DJ) has the ability to run our entire offense..."
I read deeply between the lines there...
I think he means they won't have to limit the playbook given that he is a rookie. Maybe it was a reference to plays he couldn't call with Eli, but I doubt it.
I'd like to think this too and NOT READ DEEPLY BETWEEN THE LINES. Otherwise it sounds like hes throwing Eli under the bus in his FIRST post eli press conference. Not the sign of a good coach or person.
BINGO!
And when you are 15-34 as a coach going into the season, you have to take every measure against the possibility of getting that pink slip if the organization's original plan gets out of hand with too many losses.
He had this card to play, and he's using it. Hopefully it works out.
It probably wasn't his decision to start Eli or even keep him around this year. I'm sure he has immense respect for Eli and his career, etc. But that's not 'his' guy. He and Gettleman obviously identified Jones in the draft as the guy they wanted, and now he's here.
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
There are probably RPO elements and some other things that Shurmur has in the playbook, but didn't call/felt he couldn't use because of how heavy footed Eli is at this point.
I think that's what he means when he says he's comfortable opening up the whole thing with Daniel under center.
He probably figured he could still make it work well enough with Eli, but I'm sure he stayed away from certain calls and stuck to things he felt were more in Eli's wheelhouse.
We're going to find out soon enough.
By all means start Jones. They spent the #6 pick in the whole draft on him so he needs to play. Ponder if you will that we could have made Shurmur happy with Case Keenum and spent the pick elsewhere.
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PS believes he can create accuracy in his QBs schematically. It is why Eli's completion percentage is better than it has been. He does a tremendous job of getting WR's open when he can move the pocket. I don't know why you think that PS liking Allen is a shot at Eli.
I didn't say that PS liking Allen was a shot at Eli, my reference was you taking a shot at Eli. Sure, PS can help with accuracy, but he doesn't want a scatter-armed QB, and he certainly doesn't want one who holds the ball as long as Allen does. If PS's offense is so good at getting WR's open, it certainly wasn't apparent on Sunday.
He likes to get WR's open in the bootleg and having WR's flood the playside of the field at all levels. Also likes to run bootleg playaction on early downs which should be highly effective with Saquon. I'm very optimistic about the offense. DJ will have his struggles, but at least we won't look handcuffed out there.
...his ass is on the line THIS season, and if he goes 4-12 or worse he is gone.
...his ass is on the line THIS season, and if he goes 4-12 or worse he is gone.
I hope your right but 4 wins may be at the high end of their expectations
...his ass is on the line THIS season, and if he goes 4-12 or worse he is gone.
I'd love to agree with you here but I think he's got longer and now especially with Jones at QB. He probably could have given himself a longer leash of he'd delayed the switch a week or two.
I do agree with this. Maybe Jones will be able to keep the offense on the field longer by extending drives with his mobility, but if not the spot light will fall HARD on the Defense and Bettcher. He's the next scapegoat. And say what you want about DJ facing Bowles for his first game, I think Winston will be the most Mobile QB we've seen thus far and could absolutely destroy us....if he's on.
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In comment 14586305 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 14586228 BBelle21 said:
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seems to think Daniel Jones will fit his offense perfectly. Isn’t he supposed to be able to work with what he has? Isn’t that what the great head coaches do?
Wow.. Some of you are acting like babies... Jones was drafted to play in Shurmur's offense. Would Joe Flacco be good in this offense? Nope.. Gimme a break. Some of you are insufferable with your denial of Eli's regression. That statement can be true and still not be the main reason the Giants were losing. But, it can be a reason they don't win.
It is not that complicated to figure out!
Is it really that hard for some of you to refrain from the over reactive name calling when someone presents their opinion?
Unfortunately the answer to your question is yes. Its the "you're either with us or against us" mob mentality
Most here are pretty respectful and capable of seeing multiples sides, but holy cow the ones who don’t...
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...his ass is on the line THIS season, and if he goes 4-12 or worse he is gone.
I'd love to agree with you here but I think he's got longer and now especially with Jones at QB. He probably could have given himself a longer leash of he'd delayed the switch a week or two.
I was thinking more like two years ... but not to a winning record, to a Super Bowl. Okay, getting into the playoffs would keep him around, but how long it takes him to get a Super Bowl will determine his "permanent record" historically among Giants fans. And if that demographic keeps trending the way BBI comments suggests it is, he'd better hope he can get the team to take him there sooner rather than later.
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from Shurmur...
"He (DJ) has the ability to run our entire offense..."
I read deeply between the lines there...
Bingo. There is this myth perpetuated that good coaches mold their schemes to the roster they have. That list is one coach, Billy B. Everyone else has their schemes and needs their players to run it. If I remember correctly after the draft last year, Shurmur alluded to the fact he like Josh Allen. It is so painfully obvious he wants to run bootlegs all day, some RPO, maybe read option with Saquon here and there. Can 't do that with Eli.
I think it was said of Don Shula, "he can take his'n and beat your'n, and then take your'n and beat his'n".
Who says he's a great coach? Nobody thinks that.
it's hard to build a functional offense around a washed up QB.
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I don't think it's too tough to figure out that Shurmur prefers Jones and thinks he's a better fit for what he wants to do offensively.
It probably wasn't his decision to start Eli or even keep him around this year. I'm sure he has immense respect for Eli and his career, etc. But that's not 'his' guy. He and Gettleman obviously identified Jones in the draft as the guy they wanted, and now he's here.
I'm not going to make definitive assumptions about things I'm not privy to, but I don't personally believe that the coach or GM wanted to keep this going with Manning... I think that part had more to do with John Mara. Again, though... I can't prove that, so I can't say it's a fact. It's just the read I've gotten here.
There are probably RPO elements and some other things that Shurmur has in the playbook, but didn't call/felt he couldn't use because of how heavy footed Eli is at this point.
I think that's what he means when he says he's comfortable opening up the whole thing with Daniel under center.
He probably figured he could still make it work well enough with Eli, but I'm sure he stayed away from certain calls and stuck to things he felt were more in Eli's wheelhouse.
We're going to find out soon enough.
So we need to tailor the team to fit the guy with the .300 winning percentage? Perfect.
By all means start Jones. They spent the #6 pick in the whole draft on him so he needs to play. Ponder if you will that we could have made Shurmur happy with Case Keenum and spent the pick elsewhere.
Who said we needed to tailor the team to Shurmur's offense?
Obviously someone didn't want to.. otherwise Manning wouldn't have been the starter again. I think it's pretty clear which QB the coach thinks is a better fit for the playbook.
There's an obvious disconnect at the top here and like I said in that prior post, I feel fairly confident that Gettleman/Shurmur and Mara didn't have the same view on how to proceed with (or without) Eli and they probably (stupidly, I might add..) found this as some sort of middle-ground compromise.
In many cases, a new GM/HC tandem will be accompanied by a new QB. Or at least the coach will. Much like Coughlin and Eli walked into the building at the same time. But, in 2016 we promoted McAdoo whose offense was a crappy fit for Eli. Eli went from one of his best years in 2015 to suddenly looking like the end was very near. Whose decision was that?
Probably the same person who hired Pat Shurmur but also wanted Eli to remain the starting QB....
Case Keenum should never have been an option. Either they were going to give it another go with Eli or draft someone. I guess they didn't want to commit fully to either of those approaches, so they did both.
Now all of this bullshit should be in the rear view and the coach has no more excuses. He's got his QB in there now. Either we start making improvements or it's time to start looking elsewhere.
Case Keenum should never have been an option. Either they were going to give it another go with Eli or draft someone. I guess they didn't want to commit fully to either of those approaches, so they did both.
Now all of this bullshit should be in the rear view and the coach has no more excuses. He's got his QB in there now. Either we start making improvements or it's time to start looking elsewhere.
Agreed, if the team doesn't show improvement, especially the offense, then I think Shurmur should be replaced at season's end. There are some very good options available and the Giants can't afford to waste Barkley's prime.
Shouldn't that tell you that the issue ISN'T the coach?
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2 coaches in a row that wouldn’t build an offense around Eli?
Shouldn't that tell you that the issue ISN'T the coach?
Lol right. We got two coaches that were clearly flustered with having been saddled with Eli as their QB, but it is on the coaches. One coach has a pretty impressive track record as an offensive coordinator working with shit at the QB position.
Exactly....And/or I suck as a head coach and am trying to save my job anyway I can.
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from Shurmur...
"He (DJ) has the ability to run our entire offense..."
I read deeply between the lines there...
Bingo. There is this myth perpetuated that good coaches mold their schemes to the roster they have. That list is one coach, Billy B. Everyone else has their schemes and needs their players to run it. If I remember correctly after the draft last year, Shurmur alluded to the fact he like Josh Allen. It is so painfully obvious he wants to run bootlegs all day, some RPO, maybe read option with Saquon here and there. Can 't do that with Eli.
It's not a myth. Good coaches see their players strengths and put them in positions that best utilize those strengths. They also do similar when coming up with a game plan to defeat that weeks opponent.
They don't try and pound a share peg into a round hole. They figure out something that will work or they'll die on the hill with their "scheme" if they can't.
Well BB is the greatest modern coach and possibly the greatest coach ever. Maybe just maybe there's a reason for that and he's doing something right? He's figured out all these "schemes" and like a chameleon just adapts what he has to beat them.
I'm sure he drafts his kind of players but IMO those are guys who will but in to doing what it takes and don't have to be the star. Just find guys who do specific jobs really well and use them in those jobs when needed.
Look at another sport and a guy like Pat Riley. He was great with the Lakers and their running gunning Showtime but when he came to the Knicks he didn't have that kind of team so he adapted. His Knicks played a ferocious D and grinderd every game. A complete 180 degree difference and he got everything he could from those teams and was successful at it. If not for Jordan, he gets banners hung in the Garden too IMO.
Zeke you're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that and usually agree but this time I have to differ a bit.
I think maybe instead of saying everyone else and except for BB, we should be asking what the hell is BB doing the others aren't? Clearly he's on to something and doing it right, and maybe it's the other guys who need to figure it out.
Look at the 90 Defense. In the 1st playoff game vs the Bears he wasn't tied to his 3-4 scheme, instead he came out in a 4-3, baffled the Bears and shut them down. Then in the SB he came up with the all time plan to stop the Bills. All while using the players he had but adapting in the best way to get a win.
He's eating these other coaches lunches year in year out. While they're busy with their schemes and trying to be the smartest guys in the room and reinventing the wheel, BB just adapts to whatever it takes to beat them and racks up SB trophies along the way.
I think instead of looking at him as an outlier and just thinking yeah it's BB, we should be trying to figure out what he's doing and copying that. He's obviously doing it right.
Just my .02
If you could have 100 players on a roster, it is a lot easier to say you can fit your schemes to the players, but you only get 53. Gregg Williams, wherever he goes, generally looks at his defensive roster and than starts to build a scheme around that and brings in and gets rid of players that will fit that scheme. You don't want half your edge players to be 4/3 defensive ends and the other rush linebackers.
It's a limited slip differential which distributes power equally to both the right and left tires. The '64 Skylark had a regular differential, which, anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, you step on the gas, one tire spins, the other tire does nothing.