All of this QB/ new offense talk

holding back the offense. We are still going to lose because the defense is going to give up 30 a game, but at least we'll start putting up points in the 20s.

They have to learn fast. This season is on Bettcher. Coach up a bottom ranked defense and he'll get canned.

move around in the pocket like he used to. The element of mobility from Jones is going to give defenses something to think about, you’d hope.

But he is very much part of the problem.

Not sure how Jones will do, but it will be better than what we have seen. And at times it may be worse.

even though the have no WRs, but this defense has taken a step back from last year, and may cost the team more games. they cost them several last year when they gave up the lead w less than 2 mins remaining. i thought i saw some bad defenses on this team in 2009, 13, 14, and 15. those defenses look elite compared to this. hopefully it comes together but its been abysmal thus far.

Two games is too early to write off a defense (especially with this much young talent.)

with the way it was handled.

Is how during camp they couldn’t get a beat on the D they wanted to roll out.
-Tae Davis pushes goodson off the 53 yet tae is benched in week 2.
-Antonio Hamilton is out there week one, banished week 2.
-lawrence posting half the snaps yielding to pierre

Short of just letting Eli start until he didn’t want to anymore, what should have been done differently?

Starting with DeAndre Baker. Teams are going to target the weak link relentlessly, he has to find his footing or he’s going to lose his job. He’s not the only one though, the entire secondary needs to play better.

In comment 14587062 Gman11 said:

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with the way it was handled.

I’m almost as big of a Eli mark as Britt and Dep, and I agree with you. This was the best realistic way this could have been handled. No matter how it went down, outside of Eli straight wreaking havoc on the league one last time, it would have been just like this. Whether later in the season or not. At least this way we can get a good long look at DJ, and maybe just maybe DJ can do what Brady and Ben did in their first opportunity to start. I know it’s a far chance, but the season is just beginning and any give Sunday baby.

And will probably continue to be bad.

That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to improve the O.

Very young group with few pass rushers. They are probably going to need half a season to get themselves together.

However there was good reason to think the offense would be better. Even considering they have Tate and Shepard out, they haven't scored enough. It's the second year in Shurmur's offense, Eli's a veteran, he was supposed to have more arm strength this year. But it's sort of been the same old same-old. It's not that Eli's bad, it's that he's not good enough to keep Jones off the field when the team is losing anyway, Jones is the future and Eli clearly isn't going to be the QB next year.

In comment 14587022 Zeke's Alibi said:

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holding back the offense. We are still going to lose because the defense is going to give up 30 a game, but at least we'll start putting up points in the 20s.

Agree, and it was obvious. Shurmur through his comments indicates they can open the playbook more with Jones and basically said he is the better qb right now. Some here still cherry pick an instance here or there to go see Eli still has it. But whatever, that’s in the past now

Are still who they are though
Jones' mobility will certainly open up some things, but guys are are going to have to win their one on one's which isn't something they've shown much of this year.

we know the defense is going to fail. It is very young but it did show signs last week. It really doesn't matter we are just looking for signs that this ship is going to go in the right direction with Jones. So if the offense improves I think we can life with that knowing we can fix the defense by adding pieces in free agency with the cap space and the draft.

Whining about the defense is fine, but ignoring the fact that this offense doesn't even make them competitive is ridiculous.

If the defense WAS average they wouldn't get leads to protect.

if this offense can convert a few third downs and prolong drives thus keeping the defense off the field, hopefully improving their effectiveness.

I love Eli too and it's been a sad few days for me, but I thought it was time to pull the plug as well.

However, I really wonder why people have the expectations that the offense is all of a sudden going to come alive. Even if the playbook is fully unleashed and even though Daniel Jones was lights out in the preseason, regular season football is a completely different animal and he's still a rookie QB. No matter how good he turns out to be 3 years down the line, expecting him to come in and have the offense explode, especially with this group of receivers, is setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations. For every 1st down he picks up rushing, there are going to be times where he doesn't read the defense and throws a pick, or doesn't sense the passrush and fumbles, or tries to evade the rush and ends up losing more yardage than he would have just taking the sack. And that's ok! Those are the growing pains of a rookie QB.

It's definitely exciting to watch the new kid play. Rooting like hell for him and hope he's able to have an Eli Manning-esque 16 years, really hoping for our Favre-Rodgers/Montana-Young type of transition. I just think it's wise to pump the breaks on what we would expect out of this offense.

I don't see how this "situation" was handled poorly. It was time, there was no easy way to do it. Shurmur isn't always good with PR, but I thought he handled it as well as could be expected.

but at least we will move the ball after the first drive while the game is still competitive. I'm sure that is going to come with a slew of turnovers and mistakes, but at least we'll move the ball and have some watchable football on offense again. The defense is another story.

In comment 14587315 Cap'n Bluebeard said:

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I love Eli too and it's been a sad few days for me, but I thought it was time to pull the plug as well. However, I really wonder why people have the expectations that the offense is all of a sudden going to come alive. Even if the playbook is fully unleashed and even though Daniel Jones was lights out in the preseason, regular season football is a completely different animal and he's still a rookie QB. No matter how good he turns out to be 3 years down the line, expecting him to come in and have the offense explode, especially with this group of receivers, is setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations. For every 1st down he picks up rushing, there are going to be times where he doesn't read the defense and throws a pick, or doesn't sense the passrush and fumbles, or tries to evade the rush and ends up losing more yardage than he would have just taking the sack. And that's ok! Those are the growing pains of a rookie QB. It's definitely exciting to watch the new kid play. Rooting like hell for him and hope he's able to have an Eli Manning-esque 16 years, really hoping for our Favre-Rodgers/Montana-Young type of transition. I just think it's wise to pump the breaks on what we would expect out of this offense.

Perspective

In comment 14587227 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Whining about the defense is fine, but ignoring the fact that this offense doesn't even make them competitive is ridiculous. If the defense WAS average they wouldn't get leads to protect.

Average points scored in an NFL game is 24, so if you look at that our offense is just as bad as our defense. I mean our defense is clearly worse because these teams let up on the gas pedal, but on the flip side we should be scoring more points against soft defenses.

In comment 14587086 V.I.G. said:

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Is how during camp they couldn’t get a beat on the D they wanted to roll out. -Tae Davis pushes goodson off the 53 yet tae is benched in week 2.

Davis was pushing Goodson for snaps last season. It's Connely that pushed Goodson off the roster and then passed Davis on the depth chart, granted partly because Davis is a limited player.

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-Antonio Hamilton is out there week one, banished week 2.

I think Hamilton got the "split" start week 1 because of camp injuries (Baker, Ballentine, and Beal). Don't think he really earned it by his play.

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-lawrence posting half the snaps yielding to pierre

He's a big dude and even the best DTs often rotate in/out. Cox only played 80% of the D snaps last season. While Lawrence is currently well below that (45% thru 2 games), I think they'll slowly start working him into more snaps and he'll probably be playing 70-75% snaps by the end of the season.

In comment 14587102 bradshaw44 said:

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In comment 14587062 Gman11 said: Quote: with the way it was handled. I’m almost as big of a Eli mark as Britt and Dep, and I agree with you. This was the best realistic way this could have been handled. No matter how it went down, outside of Eli straight wreaking havoc on the league one last time, it would have been just like this. Whether later in the season or not. At least this way we can get a good long look at DJ, and maybe just maybe DJ can do what Brady and Ben did in their first opportunity to start. I know it’s a far chance, but the season is just beginning and any give Sunday baby.

I'm fine with the way it was handled, and I'm all in on Jones.

Looking forward to a new era.

In comment 14587227 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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If the defense WAS average they wouldn't get leads to protect.

They had the lead in both games. Granted those leads were in the 1st Quarter and the offense didn't put points up after that, but not forcing a punt after the 1st possession for an entire half is just not winning football regardless of what the offense does.

And maybe forcing a 3 and out of their own would give the offense some field position to work with. Average starting field pos. vs. Dallas: 20 yard line (including 4 times inside their own 15 and only once past their 25). Obviously much better against Buffalo when they forced a few 3 and outs and even had a decent punt return!

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if this offense can convert a few third downs and prolong drives thus keeping the defense off the field, hopefully improving their effectiveness.

Agree to an extent. However, the Giants went 3 and out ONCE against Dallas.

In comment 14587399 Cap'n Bluebeard said:

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In comment 14587227 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: If the defense WAS average they wouldn't get leads to protect. They had the lead in both games. Granted those leads were in the 1st Quarter and the offense didn't put points up after that, but not forcing a punt after the 1st possession for an entire half is just not winning football regardless of what the offense does. And maybe forcing a 3 and out of their own would give the offense some field position to work with. Average starting field pos. vs. Dallas: 20 yard line (including 4 times inside their own 15 and only once past their 25). Obviously much better against Buffalo when they forced a few 3 and outs and even had a decent punt return! Quote: if this offense can convert a few third downs and prolong drives thus keeping the defense off the field, hopefully improving their effectiveness. Agree to an extent. However, the Giants went 3 and out ONCE against Dallas.

They were 2 for 11 on third down in dallas. You can check the box score for 3rd down efficiency.

Offense isn't just about scoring points. It's about giving some rest to the defense as well as wearing down the opposing defense. There's plenty of blame to go around with this team but there's absolutely no reason to present the offense as if it's been acceptable. It hasn't.

In comment 14587349 Zeke's Alibi said:

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but at least we will move the ball after the first drive while the game is still competitive. I'm sure that is going to come with a slew of turnovers and mistakes, but at least we'll move the ball and have some watchable football on offense again. The defense is another story.

I mean, even that is a pretty optimistic outlook, no? Making a definitive statement that we WILL definitely move the ball after the first drive is based on what, exactly? That Jones is a better athlete? That's a given, but it doesn't mean our WRs are going to be any more open, or that Barkley will have any more room to run, or that Shurmur will stick with running Barkley, or that Jones will even see the receivers when they are open or be able take a hit without fumbling. And all of that is fine, it's what you would expect of the performance from any rookie QB. Growing pains are a part of the game.

I want to be clear that I'm not at all against making the change and I think it was handled about as well as can be. I expect the offense to LOOK very different under Jones since he is more athletic and the playbook and playcalling will reflect that. But I'm not so sure that the actual performance and results will be that different given a rookie QB, lack of talent at WR (especially if Shepard is still out), and the guy calling the plays.

In comment 14587086 V.I.G. said:

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Is how during camp they couldn’t get a beat on the D they wanted to roll out. -Tae Davis pushes goodson off the 53 yet tae is benched in week 2. -Antonio Hamilton is out there week one, banished week 2. -lawrence posting half the snaps yielding to pierre

I actually do think it is a bit odd. I think part of it though was the performance was sooo bad against the Cowboys they felt pressure to make changes. Hamilton was the one that was really strange to me. Baker had been running with 1s since pretty early on, even Ballentine was jumping in and getting reps with 1s...then late in camp seemingly out of nowhere Hamilton is listed as a costarter with Baker. I'm hoping it was because Baker was coming off injury and missed time in preseason...because it was strange. He played so poorly though I'm not surprised he was banished, his coverage was egregious and his "tackling" may have been even worse.

Regarding Lawrence, his snap count compared to Pierre was split week 1, but in week 2 he doubled Pierre in snaps 34 to 17. He is closer in snap counts to Tomlinson than he is to Pierre and I think it would be pretty normal for his snap counts to gradually increase as he gets acclimated to the pro game.

been good, Saquon Barkley, Engram, the WRs suck but with Shephard in the offense we'll make due. I really think Eli has been handcuffing what PS wants to run, even in the run and playaction game. DJ is going to make mistakes, but he is a much more accurate QB than Eli.

I wasn't a huge believer in Deshaun Watson when he came into the league, but he's proved to be a good qb. When he came into that offense it looked night and day and wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened here. So much so that I just picked up DJ for my fantasy team. I think as a rookie, especially early, he'll be good for 30-40 yards a game rushing and post a 2-1 type TD/Int line.

In comment 14587431 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 14587399 Cap'n Bluebeard said: Quote: In comment 14587227 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: If the defense WAS average they wouldn't get leads to protect. They had the lead in both games. Granted those leads were in the 1st Quarter and the offense didn't put points up after that, but not forcing a punt after the 1st possession for an entire half is just not winning football regardless of what the offense does. And maybe forcing a 3 and out of their own would give the offense some field position to work with. Average starting field pos. vs. Dallas: 20 yard line (including 4 times inside their own 15 and only once past their 25). Obviously much better against Buffalo when they forced a few 3 and outs and even had a decent punt return! Quote: if this offense can convert a few third downs and prolong drives thus keeping the defense off the field, hopefully improving their effectiveness. Agree to an extent. However, the Giants went 3 and out ONCE against Dallas. They were 2 for 11 on third down in dallas. You can check the box score for 3rd down efficiency. Offense isn't just about scoring points. It's about giving some rest to the defense as well as wearing down the opposing defense. There's plenty of blame to go around with this team but there's absolutely no reason to present the offense as if it's been acceptable. It hasn't.

Never said the offense was acceptable, but the narrative that the defense has been bad because the offense keeps going 3 and out and not giving them time to rest is also not really true. The Giants have been abysmal on 3rd down, no debating that at all. They also only went 3 and out once. The defense gave up drives of 11 plays 85 yards and 9 plays 93 yards (technically 103 yards since Dallas had to make up for penalties against them) before the Giants had their only 3 and out on the day. And they gave up a 7 minute 88 yard drive right after that. That's all in the first half. If they were on the field a lot, that's on them and not being able to make a stop at all. They didn't force a punt after Dallas' 1st drive again until the 4th Quarter.

They actually played better against the Bills when the Giants offense was worse and had way more 3 and outs.

Have you taken a look at the receivers?

In comment 14587528 Zeke's Alibi said:

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been good, Saquon Barkley, Engram, the WRs suck but with Shephard in the offense we'll make due. I really think Eli has been handcuffing what PS wants to run, even in the run and playaction game. DJ is going to make mistakes, but he is a much more accurate QB than Eli. I wasn't a huge believer in Deshaun Watson when he came into the league, but he's proved to be a good qb. When he came into that offense it looked night and day and wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened here. So much so that I just picked up DJ for my fantasy team. I think as a rookie, especially early, he'll be good for 30-40 yards a game rushing and post a 2-1 type TD/Int line.

Hey, I hope you're right. Daniel Jones has the potential to be a good, possibly great QB. It's possible that all of those things happen and I hope it does play out that way. I just wouldn't count on it as absolute fact. I'm certainly counting on it being more exciting by virtue of the different skillset Daniel Jones brings to the position, especially since I don't think we've had a QB this athletic since at least Hostetler, If that? I'm just not sure it will necessarily translate to more points or consistently better results, at least right off the bat. That's all.

May provide some mobility but he is far from 1/2 the second coming of RG III or Vick. I’m not sure how the offense will change but don’t expect to see to much running around from Jones or defenses will adjust to prevent that very easily. Eli being benched this early in the season is not a good thing for all concerned.