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Collins on Gettleman: "He’s a liar"

jeff57 : 9/19/2019 7:50 am
Quote:
Other players released or traded by Gettleman over the years agree — Odell Beckham, Steve Smith, and especially Collins, who returns to MetLife Stadium in Week 4, for Washington’s game at the Giants.

Link - ( New Window )
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RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media  
arcarsenal : 9/19/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14587723 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.


He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?

Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?

Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media  
bw in dc : 9/19/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14587727 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?

Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?

Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.


Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
The same people that point to how good "resumes" track record  
NoGainDayne : 9/19/2019 11:20 am : link
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.

The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.

Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.

RE: RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media  
arcarsenal : 9/19/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14587735 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14587727 arcarsenal said:


Quote:



He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?

Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?

Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.



Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?


I don't believe that's been corroborated by anyone reliable. Or at least, no one I know of.
RE: ghost718  
ghost718 : 9/19/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14587700 arniefez said:
Quote:
No one gave Collins 80 million. He got a two year contract for about 32 million. He'll never see a dime past that unless it's on a new contract. That's a lot of money but people need to stop buying the NFL bullshit about contract values and learn how the business works.

Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.

As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.


Strange that you felt the need to correct that statement,are you another Big Blue Skins fan?
RE: He's like me when Lisa Degramilo  
Racer : 9/19/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14587237 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Broke up with me in 7th grade. Eventually I moved on. One day Landon will too.


+1

"If they never are required to exceed a maturity level of a 12yr old, why would they?"

-Me, probably around 2009
He is such a whiny Bitch  
ZogZerg : 9/19/2019 12:18 pm : link
Get the fuck over it already.

The GM and player relationship shouldn't be 'cozy'  
Torrag : 9/19/2019 1:02 pm : link
One evaluates the others performance in relation to their salary while factoring in both short and log term value to his organization.

I don't care if DG misleads players to get the best out of them in the short term with an eye to replacing them in the future. That's his job.
Sometimes people mistake brutal honesty with lying  
moespree : 9/19/2019 1:18 pm : link
Because brutal honesty makes you question your own opinions about yourself. Wait, how can you tell me I'm not as good as I think I am, of course I am as good as I think I am therefore you must be lying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media  
ron mexico : 9/19/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14587744 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14587735 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14587727 arcarsenal said:


Quote:



He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?

Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?

Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.



Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?



I don't believe that's been corroborated by anyone reliable. Or at least, no one I know of.


I believe Gettleman said he did get offers for LC but didn't take them because how it would have impacted the locker room.
If you read the story this part is kinda important  
ajr2456 : 9/19/2019 1:28 pm : link
Quote:
Collins didn’t bring up his Gettleman concerns with Mara and Tisch. He wanted to move on. But he later felt like he couldn’t, after how Gettleman characterized the Giants’ offseason house-cleaning moves.

“Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of.


And Collins isn’t wrong. Gettleman did talk negatively first before Collins made any comment.
By the way - the lying collins is referring to  
ron mexico : 9/19/2019 1:29 pm : link
are gettlemans comments on OBJ, not what DG said about Collins

didn't read through the whole thread, not sure if anyone pointed that out

see article below
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Don't Ignore the Message  
Matt M. : 9/19/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14587253 Jeffrey said:
Quote:
because of the messenger. Angry bitter words from Collins, Norman and others may have ulterior motives, but no one can really look at DG's performance since coming back to the Giants and not acknowledge that he has done and said many things that are seemingly inconsistent or contradictory. Eli's treatment is just the latest example of the flip-flop from this guy. Love him, hate him, trust his "plan" --I don't really care but do not ignore the reality that he has yet to prove he is right for this job and the fact that his style is very different from Reese, does not mean he will prove to be the guy who can fix this team.
What is wrong with Eli's treatment?
RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true  
Matt M. : 9/19/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14587388 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.

Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.


I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
They didn't want to franchise him because they didn't want to potentially be on the hook for the salary it carries. I don't have a problem with that decision.
.  
Banks : 9/19/2019 2:45 pm : link
19 tackles, but only 1 TFL for a team ranked 31st against the run and 25th against the pass. I haven't paid attention to them much, but based on the numbers I assume most of these tackles are not impact plays. I wanted to keep Collins, but not at that price. Nowhere near it. He isn't enough of an impact player. The fact that he doesn't shut up now makes me glad he's gone
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
jcn56 : 9/19/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:


Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.


And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.

Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.

As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
RE: I don’t want a GM who’s bros with the players like Reese was  
Photoguy : 9/19/2019 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14587303 mfsd said:
Quote:
I want a GM smart enough not to pay Landon $14 million a year

The jury is still out on the job DG is doing, but I don’t care if he’s not warm and fuzzy with these guys


I read somewhere that's why he isn't. Makes it harder to make those decisions if you're chummy with players.
RE: The same people that point to how good  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2019 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14587741 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.

The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.

Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.


Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?

It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.

That's what is being glossed over. And it wasn't like he was out of work a year or so.

I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
BigBlueShock : 9/19/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14588258 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:




Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.



And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.

Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.

This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media  
EricJ : 9/19/2019 11:07 pm : link
In comment 14587723 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.


Most people said Collins could not cover and virtually NOBODY here wanted to pay Collins the money he was asking for.

Suddenly after OBJ is traded and Peppers ends up here during the transaction... we have these people coming out of the woodwork who wanted to keep Collins now at what the Redskins paid him?



RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
jcn56 : 9/19/2019 11:31 pm : link
In comment 14588704 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 14588258 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:




Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.



And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.

Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.



This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.


You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.

So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent.
Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
RE: RE: The same people that point to how good  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2019 12:03 am : link
In comment 14588640 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14587741 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.



Really? Dishonest??

Quote:

I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.


I stated a fact, that he was out of work. How exactly is that acting like he had a lengthy stint out of work? He wasn't employed currently. That's a fact. Your portrayal of me as dishonest is the only dishonesty in our two posts.

Everything for you is so black and white. People "do" or "don't do" analytics.

Quote:

Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?

It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.


People don't get fired just for one thing. And to a point made earlier on the thread if you want to convince someone of your point convince them. If you do get fired over one thing (and everything else is grand like you seem to be implying) then you were probably a huge asshole about that one thing. Doesn't mean the person on the other end of it wasn't also one, but, you work for that person. For someone who seems to care so much about people respecting his authority... he didn't get fired respecting his superior.

He's not some white knight hero for standing up for his desire to not move on from two players to a breaking point. He's not much different than the players bashing him in the media just people with pride and irreconcilable differences with former employers.

He was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2019 1:24 am : link
working for an owner who was forced to cede control of his team!!

An owner who increasingly made poor decisions to the point that when he left, he elevated a former cheerleader to the role of head of team operations! I've posted several articles where the Charlotte beats point to the Davis and Olsen situation being the reason for his firing.

I'd also like to know how many GM's or coaches are hired while they still are working?? He was hired by the Giants immediately after a season, the first time any team will make a change at GM.

And fuck you with the black and white analytics comment. It is actually YOU who is black and white. Let me remind you once again - that you asserted for months (and possibly still do) that Gettleman didn't have anything to do with analytics - and again I showed articles about him setting up the analytics program in Charlotte. You literally claimed he didn't use analytics!!

You are absolutely a fucking joke.
Ah well I see your modicum of civility  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2019 1:36 am : link
while still completely inaccurately calling me dishonest has disintegrated.

Not going to play in the mud with you anymore.

The owner getting outed is a red herring. That owner also hired him. Should we taint Gettleman for being also liked by that owner?

Wanting to completely absolve someone of blame after getting fired is a strange stance to take. But you are quite adept at dying on these strange analytical hills because you charge in insults blazing ready to tell the world how terrible their opinions are.

You and your buddy Gettleman, making the world a better place one prideful superfluous stand at a time.
And for the last time everyone uses analytics  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2019 1:53 am : link
“Analytics is the discovery, interpretation, and communication of meaningful patterns in data”

Many would call a pivot table that you talk over analytics. The comment was always about an NFL team with probably the best talent pool in the country not having people with the right qualifications to engage in the types of analytics some teams and many many businesses engage in. And if you remember I started talking about it after they were consistently messing up timeouts which is very simple applied game theory.

You insist I was making a point no one would ever make because you miss nuance when riding on such a high horse. Comparatively to the work going on around them in this city there is plenty of evidence (by me and other posters who work in this space) that the Giants are embarrassingly behind. The debate moved on to how much they should really be pursuing advanced analytics but you’ve got this masochistic way of harping on this where I honestly feel bad for you at this point.
You are absolutely..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2019 1:55 am : link
dishonest. In how you portray things and certainly about analytics.

And the black and white in your world boils down to those who buy into your dishonest view of analytics as "getting it" while those who don't are screamed down with a ridiculous "Luddite" cry.

The real question is if you are dishonest out of a lack of intelligence, which certainly looks like the case many times.

So you can stop playing in the mud simply by stopping posting shit on the board.

It is in your control.
Awwww what’s the matter? Now you are upset that you  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2019 2:24 am : link
can’t annoy me anymore and you want me to go away?

No sorry.

Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
USAF NYG Fan : 9/20/2019 5:47 am : link
In comment 14588258 jcn56 said:
Quote:

And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.

Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.

As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.

I don't think you get it. It's not a comparison, it's an aspiration. Every damn GM/HC in the league should aspire to do what Bill does. Is your philosophy to not bother trying to do things like him? Is the only way to fix it to find a different way to do it or to do what is proven to work? Bill didn't need a LT as bad as the Giants. We know why Bill doesn't need any position as bad as any other team in the league. He has no trouble getting a replacement (GM) and/or can turn lemons into lemonade with the backups (HC).

I just don't get it. You are so sick of "comparisons" being made to Bill. I think we agree that Bill is the best at what he does so why wouldn't we want our GM/HC to emulate that?
FMiC....  
bw in dc : 9/20/2019 7:48 am : link
conveniently leaves out this portion from the Charlotte Observer why Gettleman was fired:

Quote:
In interviews with more than a dozen team and league sources, the Observer learned that Gettleman’s brusque management style – which had made him unpopular with some Carolina players from his earliest days as GM – had begun to wear thin throughout the organization.

Some staffers also didn’t like how Gettleman reshaped the roster following the 2015 Super Bowl season, leaving yawning gaps in the secondary and along the offensive line that were exposed during a 6-10 campaign last year.


So while the Olson/Davis situations were factors, there was more to the story.

Meanwhile, FMiC conveniently glosses over how DG was hired here. Accorsi, his dear old friend, was tasked by Mara to find a GM who could restore the team back to the “Giants Way” after Mara fired Reese and McAdoo for carrying out Mara’s plan to bench Eli to the letter. Accorsi spent about five minutes calling DG, booking his flight for the “interview”, and prepping him how to seal the deal with Mara.

So let’s not act like DG got scooped up in a few months because there was some great demand for DG. Let’s face it, in the world of NFL GM’s, DG is an old man. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume there was not going to be this great market for DG. At the end of the day, he was the beneficiary of fortune timing and serendipity at Jints Central...
Wait, this is news to me  
eclipz928 : 9/20/2019 7:48 am : link
Quote:
Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.

“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”

So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Eli was offering $10M for any team willing to trade  
Jimmy Googs : 9/20/2019 7:53 am : link
for Flowers
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
BigBlueShock : 9/20/2019 8:06 am : link
In comment 14589035 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14588704 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 14588258 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:




Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.



And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.

Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.



This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.



You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.

So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent. Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )

Nate Solder disagrees...
Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
RE: Wait, this is news to me  
Bill L : 9/20/2019 11:30 am : link
In comment 14589127 eclipz928 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.

“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”


So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.


Where does it say he told Flowers something?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
jcn56 : 9/20/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14589144 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:


Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )


Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:

Quote:
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.


The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.

But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
RE: Awwww what’s the matter? Now you are upset that you  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14589083 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
can’t annoy me anymore and you want me to go away?

No sorry.

Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?


What the fuck are you talking about?

A dishonest view of analytics is taking a snippet from a press conference and saying that Gettleman shuns analytics and then after being shown he implemented the analytics program in Carolina, going through a bunch of gymnastics to say "well, it isn't the right analytics".

Dishonest in analytics is also taking the view that PFF actually has something to contribute because it is "data". It isn't. It is all qualitative analysis that is done by subjective criteria. That isn't data and it is about as anti-analytics as one can get.

The funniest thing about our debates is that I'm pro-analytics and you call me a luddite. Why? Because you are a fucking moron.
Fatman...keep fighting the good fight. Not all data is good data.  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/20/2019 6:42 pm : link
Or relevant. Football is a sport that has so many moving pieces that you can' t just break down analytically. Not yet at least. Football needs to be treated like the stock market, it is a science AND an art.

When you are down 14 late in the game what do the analytics say? Go for two each time you score. Well what if your QB has the flu and his game looks off. Your kicker is perfect on the year extra points. Do you still go for it?
Not all data is good data but  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2019 6:56 pm : link
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.

What do you think analyst estimates are? Is that not data because there are qualitative inputs?

There isn't a right and wrong analytics. I've suggested that other than on field evidence (ala applied game theory) the qualifications of the people building them and yes even the culture in the building and the way the leaders speak are also good markers for if there are likely the right processes in place to build great teach. McL went as far as to look up github libraries and found no code from the Giants but many other teams.

You act like i'm just being some arbiter of analytics when unsurprisingly the people that work in analytics have brought a lot of evidence to the table and you just bombastic skeptic garbage.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league  
BigBlueShock : 9/20/2019 7:13 pm : link
In comment 14589506 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14589144 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:




Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )



Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:



Quote:


As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.




The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.

But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.

What? How the hell does that artistically prove ME wrong? It plainly states that the Pats wanted to bring him back. And offered a competitive offer as the Giants. The only difference was it was incentive based. Solder has said this. You’re acting as if the Pats had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did! Is it really shocking that another team would have to outbid New England if they wanted him? How the hell does that make the Giants incompetent and the Pats brilliant? The Pats wanted him back. The Giants didn’t have the luxury of making demands on incentives. That’s how free agency works. Stop acting like they had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did.
Right from your own snippet  
BigBlueShock : 9/20/2019 7:26 pm : link
You pulled from the article...

As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.

So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
This is absolute...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/20/2019 7:37 pm : link
bullshit:

Quote:
Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.


You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.

You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?

There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.

PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
RE: Right from your own snippet  
jcn56 : 9/20/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14590128 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
You pulled from the article...

As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.

So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...


You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.

Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
RE: This is absolute...  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/20/2019 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14590140 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
bullshit:



Quote:


Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.



You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.

You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?

There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.

PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.


God this so much. Often PFF will be the complete opposite of what the team grades are. What qualifications do the people have that do the scoring? That doesn't even deal with the obvious flaws anyone with a functioning brain can see in their plus minus scale that they explain on their site. CC was able to use his SNF platform to shoehorn PFF grades into the game, and the networks can tell the dummy on the couch eats that shit up so he has something to argue about with his friends. It has no actual bearing on its effectiveness, its a made for TV rating.
RE: RE: Right from your own snippet  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/20/2019 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14590143 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14590128 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


You pulled from the article...

As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.

So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...



You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.

Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.


Solder's play since the second half of last season has been very good. But keep banging the drum its a dog shit contract. The Patriots would have kept paying him that money because their was no reason for them to opt out the contract based on the incentives he was likely to earn, whether it was playing time based or performance.
RE: RE: Right from your own snippet  
BigBlueShock : 9/20/2019 7:52 pm : link
In comment 14590143 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14590128 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


You pulled from the article...

As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.

So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...



You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.

Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.

Did the Pats make him an offer that would have made him one of the highest paid tackles in football? Were there also multiple other teams competing for him? Simple answers. Yes or no. You hate Gettleman. We get it. Bringing up Beckham is completely fucking useless in this discussion. So because Beckham decided to double down on his nonsense after signing his contract, every move Gettleman makes is therefore terrible?

You didn’t like the hire and have been a miserable fuck ever since. Instead of making shit up like the Pats didn’t have any interest in bringing Solder back, maybe just take a break from the team? Gettleman will be gone soon and then you’ll have someone else to bitch about constantly. That’s the story of your miserable life.
And this just proves how small you think  
NoGainDayne : 9/20/2019 7:55 pm : link
the ratings are smaller questions like grading plays.

Ernie Banks started with the Patriots almost two decades ago to build value based systems. This data amongt a lot of other data is potentially useful within the spectrum of a value based or team construction analysis.

Regardless you are again trying to pull us away from the main point which is the Giants still don’t have people with the proper backgrounds to build good predictive systems like I posted in a different thread there are single members of the PFF team with far better qualifications than anyone in the Giants organization.

Christian pointed out on another thread that he knows the space well and PFF has made leaps. The issue is that we haven’t even started the process of building a team that can build advanced predictive systems and perhaps worse yet we aren’t evolving to integrate that information into our process in a unique way that could give us an advantage even if we were purchasing the best data. And that’s why you invest in these systems because they aren’t good overnight and even harder when your talent is inferior in number, experience and education.

Also just to point out where we are debating, on a thread where there is evidence of how poorly it goes for all parties involved when you challenge the all powerful DG. Especially after that quote bw posted can you honestly say that DG seems like a guy that knows how to foster real innovation?
Again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/21/2019 2:59 am : link
with this load of shit:

Quote:
The issue is that we haven’t even started the process of building a team that can build advanced predictive systems and perhaps worse yet we aren’t evolving to integrate that information into our process in a unique way that could give us an advantage even if we were purchasing the best data. And that’s why you invest in these systems because they aren’t good overnight and even harder when your talent is inferior in number, experience and education.


We have a team in place! And the offseason had several articles and mentions of how the Giants are integrating analytics into player selection for roster construction and in gameplay. But you keep beating the drum that because Tyseer Siam came from a healthcare background that he can't be part of a good analytics team. And you stick by it like a cluelessly ignorant moron.

You also said many times that Shurmur's in game decisions, specifically on 4th down showed a lack of grasping analytics. Guess what, Sherlock? This directly opposes your consistently shit take:
Quote:
How analytics have impacted the Giants' in-game strategy

There is also evidence to suggest the Giants have and continue to use analytics during their in-game process and not only in their roster-building strategy.

An analytical study pinpointed by Ben Baldwin on Twitter suggests the Giants were one of the most forward-thinking franchises in the NFL when it came to going for it on fourth down under head coach Pat Shurmur. The analytics dictate certain situations where the Giants and any other NFL offense should opt to go for it on fourth down. The Giants adhered to these analytics more than almost any NFL team in 2018.


The link to the full article is below. You might want to take a peek.
Giants Integrating Analytics - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Wait, this is news to me  
eclipz928 : 9/21/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14589501 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14589127 eclipz928 said:


Quote:




Quote:


Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.

“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”


So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.



Where does it say he told Flowers something?

It's implied from Flowers' comment about asking for clarity. Seems that he was at least given the impression that Gettleman was trying to move him.

His reasons for missing voluntary workouts could very well be bullshit, but it's clear that he wanted to be traded and that he was expecting it to happen.
Just from the OP  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/21/2019 10:35 am : link
Is DG a liar... well yes he is. All GMs are liars. Welcome to the real world Landon.
LC:  
mrvax : 9/21/2019 1:01 pm : link
Cry me a river. Just move on buddy. Move on and try to improve. That's where your energy should be spent.
...  
christian : 9/21/2019 2:38 pm : link
You don't often hear this many ex-players absolutely hate their former GM. One stop is maybe a bad situation, but this is his second stop as a GM and everyone on the way out has nothing but bad things to say about him.

For a guy wrapped around a pole about culture, maybe a good look at himself and how he treats people would be a good contribution.

I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the Giants org. What I'd like to know is what value system output that paying and then kicking money to Solder, paying Jenkins 15M this year, paying Tate, paying Martin, Omameh, Stewart and paying Manning 23M to be a stop gap, were good decisions.

Spare me the "what other choice did they have," "shoring up the culture," "coach in the locker room," lines -- were those value based decisions?
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