Other players released or traded by Gettleman over the years agree — Odell Beckham, Steve Smith, and especially Collins, who returns to MetLife Stadium in Week 4, for Washington’s game at the Giants.
Collins may talk too much, but this does not reflect well on Gettleman. Stuff like this:
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
Especially a guy like Collins who got paid this off-season. Dude, you got paid well more than you are worth and instead of focusing on how to make your current team better (last I checked, the Skins are 0-2 as well), you would rather throw shots at your former team.
Especially a guy like Collins who got paid this off-season. Dude, you got paid well more than you are worth and instead of focusing on how to make your current team better (last I checked, the Skins are 0-2 as well), you would rather throw shots at your former team.
If you'd read the actual article you know it's not about that.
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
Listen, he needs to move on, but Collins was one of the leaders on the team and if DG couldn't reach out to him at all during the off-season, even if it was to say "we appreciate everything you did here, but you do not fit into our future plans", that just isn't right.
Especially a guy like Collins who got paid this off-season. Dude, you got paid well more than you are worth and instead of focusing on how to make your current team better (last I checked, the Skins are 0-2 as well), you would rather throw shots at your former team.
If you'd read the actual article you know it's not about that.
Yeah, after I wrote this comment, I went back and read the article.
Should Collins move on? Well yeah, obviously. But that stands apart from the fact that we have a GM who's an insufferable douche.
Like I said earlier, if he's an insufferable douche who can deliver a winning roster than it wouldn't be much of a problem. But since he's not doing that, well... it's just not a good look.
But hey, let's stick our head in the sand and just laugh at Collins and others while the Giants' organization stays a dumpster fire year after year.
He expected, not even just wanted, to be paid an obscene amount of money even though his play never came close to 2016 again and he had some significant injuries. As some have said, the Giants didn't get rid of him. They simply didn't offer him what he wanted.I'm also guessing he signed with Washington thinking he'll stick it to the Giants 2 times a year. The Giants may be thinking they can't wait to get Barkley and Engram i space against him 2 times a year.
we Could have traded flowers before the 18 season?
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
because of the messenger. Angry bitter words from Collins, Norman and others may have ulterior motives, but no one can really look at DG's performance since coming back to the Giants and not acknowledge that he has done and said many things that are seemingly inconsistent or contradictory. Eli's treatment is just the latest example of the flip-flop from this guy. Love him, hate him, trust his "plan" --I don't really care but do not ignore the reality that he has yet to prove he is right for this job and the fact that his style is very different from Reese, does not mean he will prove to be the guy who can fix this team.
I really don't have a problem with how DG is operating, but the way he Â
handled Landon is probably my only beef I've had with him. Unless there is something I'm not seeing, LC seemed to be a guy that did everything you asked for him and more. Worked extremely hard at practice, tried to be a leader, get Eli Apple in line and than DG lumps him in with the rest of the jokers. LC should just get over it, but I'm not going to kill a professional athlete finding motivation in this situation. Those guys operate on different planets than we do. You can bet your ass we get his best game of the season twice.
The only issue is that this is consistent with what happened Â
in Carolina. At some point a GM has to have good relationships with players, malcontents or not. Communication/leadership style matters as it does in any business.
& it is part of the job. On the flip side, wasn’t it the right move to move on from Smith and Norman in Carolina? Also, DG didn’t slap the franchise tag on Collins - shouldn’t be appreciate that?
is truly handling these situations without having the balls to have a conversation with the players (beyond a quick phone call), that is pretty shitty.
He could make all the same moves and still handle it better.
about a player, often through friendly allies in the sporting press, it's all good and true, but when a player says something that reflects poorly on an organization, he's a trouble maker and good riddance.
Collins got the "Giants treatment" which is far older than he most of you commenting on this: you get rid of a player that might come back and haunt you, you trash him going out the door for being choose one: disloyal, complaining, a locker room cancer. They did it with Harrison, Collins, OBJ etc.
Just look at the way he handles himself in the media. Mocking orginazations that believe in analytics (the same orgs that have been kicking our asses for years, btw), reminding everyone how brilliant he is because he went to 7 Super Bowls (2 as a scout, LOL), and his dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagrees with him.
These comments from players merely confirm that he's an a-hole.
As others have said, be a dick all you want, but you better back it up with wins. So far, he's not looking too smart.
can't let things go, brings up old shit, blames everyone but themselves, etc, are the same personalities that kill morale and ARE NOT team players. They are the opposite of team player, they are team killers.
You see, I don't think people understand that, "liked by teammates" DOES NOT make them a team player.
We've all worked with that guy/girl. I see it all the time. The water cooler talk. I see people that are good at what they do, BUT, they also complain about their supervisor, manager, ect for everything under the sun to all their co-workers. Their co-workers, who look up to them, eat this stuff up. It undermines leaderships and kills the morale towards the organization. People lose faith in their leaders because they actually believe the class clown knows best.
I've been both the class clown and the leader. I've seen it and dealt with it. If you talk to them about it and they can't stop doing it, you cut them loose for the good of your team. They are toxic and will destroy your organization.
I've got two names for you; OBJ and Collins. Every time they open their mouth complaining about the Giants is further proof that both of these players are team killers. Both of them need to learn that the first place they should point their finger is at the mirror BEFORE ever pointing it at anybody else.
But his concerns send pretty valid, in that gettleman never spoke to him, and he felt disrespected by being lumped in with being called a distraction.
But the bigger point is, when have you heard this many players hate a former GM? I don't think I've ever seen this in the NFL and it's across 2 trans me that multiple players feel disrespected and lied to the way Gettleman has handled them. You can think whatever you want about each individual case, but stuff like that gets around the league and player circles. Everyone talks about how much cap space we will have next year, well stuff like this could hurt our chances with the top tier free agents, or at least cause is to pay an "asshole tax," if you will.
If in your industry, there was an employer that everyone who left had terrible things to say about the boss, wouldn't you be less likely to work for them, or at least require higher compensation to do so?
Collins may talk too much, but this does not reflect well on Gettleman. Stuff like this:
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
ok, so which is true? If Collins is calling DG a liar, he must have spoken with him. If he has never spoken to him, how can he know if he has lied. Either way, Collins isn't being truthful here. Ironic based on his accusation.
Collins may talk too much, but this does not reflect well on Gettleman. Stuff like this:
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
ok, so which is true? If Collins is calling DG a liar, he must have spoken with him. If he has never spoken to him, how can he know if he has lied. Either way, Collins isn't being truthful here. Ironic based on his accusation.
Uuuh... could be refering to things DG said ABOUT him... Not that hard to understand, I thought?
& it is part of the job. On the flip side, wasn’t it the right move to move on from Smith and Norman in Carolina? Also, DG didn’t slap the franchise tag on Collins - shouldn’t be appreciate that?
This is right.
RE: Is is not abundantly evident that Gettleman is an asshole? Â
Just look at the way he handles himself in the media. Mocking orginazations that believe in analytics (the same orgs that have been kicking our asses for years, btw), reminding everyone how brilliant he is because he went to 7 Super Bowls (2 as a scout, LOL), and his dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagrees with him.
These comments from players merely confirm that he's an a-hole.
As others have said, be a dick all you want, but you better back it up with wins. So far, he's not looking too smart.
I don't care if he comes off as an asshole.
My problem is he normally doesn't sound very smart. A lot of the things he says are just plain stupid. Either because he's trying to be funny, or because he thinks he's smarter than everyone in the room.
For an organization that launched Parcells to forget that you 'are what your record says you are', some humility would be in order.
I also think people expect teamwork from the players, but somehow refuse to hold the leadership of the team accountable for their behavior. Being a good leader means breaking the hard news sometimes, like telling Landon Collins to his face that although he was a good player for the team, you've decided to go a different route.
Nothing excuses Collins from acting like a jilted lover after he left, but a lot of these players seem to have the same recurring complaints about Gettleman, and now that spans two organizations. Either all of these guys are whiny assholes, or maybe they have a point about Gettleman.
And before anyone's quick to dismiss that, just remember - money talks, but trust is important. Given a similar opportunity in two different organizations, a player will use intangibles to make their decision. If they don't trust the man in charge, that decision becomes pretty simple.
divas (Norman, Smith, Collins, OBJ) that have come out and complained about DG cutting them loose. If that means other divas will think twice about signing with the Giants, GOOD! I don't want them here.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
How can Collins claim Gettleman's a liar when he said that Gettleman Â
He spoke about that in general. Isn’t Collins assuming DG was talking about him when he said he got rid of guys who were a problem. Collins FA was after that. I never thought DG even intimated Collins was a problem or part of that. That’s Collins’ take not what DG said about him.
We knew this about gettleman from his carolina days Â
Gettleman was brought here to do exactly what he's done, which is blow up the roster and start over. Anyone who is from the previous losing group who has a problem leaving, my response is "you didn't do enough to win and stay". I don't care that they hate Gettleman and felt lied to.
Now, I think all the pressure is on Gettleman and Shurmur in 2020. I think Mara will give them the grace period that it wasn't a one year turnaround. If the Giants continue to struggle in 2020 and don't make the playoffs, with 3 Gettleman drafts, a ton of cap space and Daniel Jones with game experience under his belt, then the Giants need to show him and Shurmur the door.
divas (Norman, Smith, Collins, OBJ) that have come out and complained about DG cutting them loose. If that means other divas will think twice about signing with the Giants, GOOD! I don't want them here.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
So far he's much better known as the Talent Extractor
You should care about how the leader of an organization treats his people. Before too long, there won't be any good ones left to mistreat. Even a shitty employee needs to be given the same respect as everyone else, if only to show the rest of the rank and file that you're not petty.
It’s Mara apologizing to Collins for how his exit was handled (per Collins). But, allowing Collins to be an unrestricted FA seems like a good deal for Collins & made a ton of money for it.
I think Collins ego took a hit. I’m still pissed he dropped the INT against NE in 2015. Would have gotten us to 6-4 and maybe we win the division.
Season, called one of his teammates a cancer and refused to switch to LB even though he can’t cover anyone. He’s definitely not worth 84 mil. I’m tired of hearing about him. If the giants would’ve signed him Gettleman would be get killed by the same beat writers for giving him a terrible contract
I don’t want a GM who’s bros with the players like Reese was Â
and yes the giants suck right now, but he has rebuilt the offensive line, hopefully drafted a future qb, hall of fame rb, his draft classes albeit very early are contributing..
has 60 million to spend this offseason, team really is not as far off as people think
RE: How can Collins claim Gettleman's a liar when he said that Gettleman Â
But he really only has one job and that's to put together the best possible team for his employers. And, I think that the jury is still out on that. I'm sure it's a subject of potential great debate, but personally, I think he has gotten the arrow pointing upwards, whereas his predecessor approached the team with a shovel in his hands on loam on his mind.
I could care less of his flippant or even disingenuous with the media. In fact, good for him! Yay!. Him mocking teams for "analytics' is less than insubstantial and the complaint is more in the minds of the hurt ones who take themselves far too seriously than grounded in reality. Basically, what he says in public means less than zero.
I do think he likely needs to be more communicative with his subordinates though, especially as he is moving them out (tasking some of these commenters in the article at their word). But, moving them out is well within his purview and in pretty much every case I can think of, more than justifiable.
Wrt Collins specifically, he didn't fit what they want at the price Collins wanted. As far as "lumping him in with the distractions" I didn't see DG specifically single Collins out in this vein. Not sure why he has to specifically say "except for Landon" in his every sentence either. On the subject itself, I actually would think that running to the papers to disparage a teammate (even if the teammate was an abominable teammate) is a distraction for the GM to deal with .
Gettleman was brought here to do exactly what he's done, which is blow up the roster and start over. Anyone who is from the previous losing group who has a problem leaving, my response is "you didn't do enough to win and stay". I don't care that they hate Gettleman and felt lied to.
Now, I think all the pressure is on Gettleman and Shurmur in 2020. I think Mara will give them the grace period that it wasn't a one year turnaround. If the Giants continue to struggle in 2020 and don't make the playoffs, with 3 Gettleman drafts, a ton of cap space and Daniel Jones with game experience under his belt, then the Giants need to show him and Shurmur the door.
I think Gettleman gets 2020, but I’m not so sure about Shurmur. I think PS has to prove himself in the next 14 games.
divas (Norman, Smith, Collins, OBJ) that have come out and complained about DG cutting them loose. If that means other divas will think twice about signing with the Giants, GOOD! I don't want them here.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
So far he's much better known as the Talent Extractor
You should care about how the leader of an organization treats his people. Before too long, there won't be any good ones left to mistreat. Even a shitty employee needs to be given the same respect as everyone else, if only to show the rest of the rank and file that you're not petty.
I see a leader sending a message to the team that no one person is above the team. I see one that won't overlook shit behavior because of talent. There was a cancer on this team and he's cutting it out. As for how the team is playing now, recovery takes time.
Would Bill Belichick have tolerated any of this? I guarantee that Antonio Brown will either straighten up and fly right or Bill will cut him loose.
Smith and Norman were never much after they were released. Will that trend continue with Collins? It looks like it already started when he was still here.
What this boils down to was Landon Collins needed someone to give him a big hug and he didn't get that. The NFL is a business. You are a grown man, Landon. Try acting like one.
Collins is currently number NINE in league in tackles
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
divas (Norman, Smith, Collins, OBJ) that have come out and complained about DG cutting them loose. If that means other divas will think twice about signing with the Giants, GOOD! I don't want them here.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
So far he's much better known as the Talent Extractor
You should care about how the leader of an organization treats his people. Before too long, there won't be any good ones left to mistreat. Even a shitty employee needs to be given the same respect as everyone else, if only to show the rest of the rank and file that you're not petty.
I see a leader sending a message to the team that no one person is above the team. I see one that won't overlook shit behavior because of talent. There was a cancer on this team and he's cutting it out. As for how the team is playing now, recovery takes time.
Would Bill Belichick have tolerated any of this? I guarantee that Antonio Brown will either straighten up and fly right or Bill will cut him loose.
You know what else Bill Belichick wouldn't do?
He wouldn't give up a 4th to overpaid an at best mediocre Alec Ogletree. He wouldn't give Solder the highest paying contract for an LT.
BBI needs to stop the WWBD - because Belichick is in his own league. He's earned the right to be different, he's got the results to prove it.
Gettleman doesn't have to be best buds with these guys - but being straight up and telling someone they're out isn't too much to ask either.
Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Collins is currently number NINE in league in tackles
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
Wow - he's NUMBER NINE in tackles after two games.
Guess where his defense ranks? 30th. They can't stop anyone. Neither could the Giants for most of the time he was here. We had a good defense one of the four years he played here - but sure, he's certainly the missing link.
Some of these takes... oy vey.
I would temper everything because we only are seeing one side Â
expressed by bitter people, many of whom have had their own public issues and there's no really verification as to whether or not they have a propensity for truth-telling.
Collins may talk too much, but this does not reflect well on Gettleman. Stuff like this:
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
ok, so which is true? If Collins is calling DG a liar, he must have spoken with him. If he has never spoken to him, how can he know if he has lied. Either way, Collins isn't being truthful here. Ironic based on his accusation.
Uuuh... could be refering to things DG said ABOUT him... Not that hard to understand, I thought?
and what did DG say about him?
RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
Listen, he needs to move on, but Collins was one of the leaders on the team and if DG couldn't reach out to him at all during the off-season, even if it was to say "we appreciate everything you did here, but you do not fit into our future plans", that just isn't right.
Yes. DG has shown time and time again to be completely unprofessional. He is a terrible representative of the Giants and would not last a day in a real job in the real world.
Collins is currently number NINE in league in tackles
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
Wow - he's NUMBER NINE in tackles after two games.
Guess where his defense ranks? 30th. They can't stop anyone. Neither could the Giants for most of the time he was here. We had a good defense one of the four years he played here - but sure, he's certainly the missing link.
Some of these takes... oy vey.
I do think that we all recognize that Landon is very skilled and an excellent tackler. That ranking doesn't surprise me at all. The concern here was that he was poor in coverage and that our scheme needed something that...wasn't that. How have his cover skills been in the first 2 games? That doesn't show up in the tackle stats.
RE: RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
well he gave the Eagles a 4th round comp pick for Tate...so lets not make it like DG is a master here.
Collins was very good in the box, but he couldn’t Â
cover my grandmother who’s been dead for quite some time. I would never pay an in the box S anywhere close to $14 mill AND we should get a 3rd in compensation.
Smart move by DG
RE: RE: RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
well he gave the Eagles a 4th round comp pick for Tate...so lets not make it like DG is a master here.
You also apparently don't understand how the formula works.
He didn't "give" the Eagles anything.
I thought that they were offered a third for Collins last season? Â
should go be a beat in D.C. I mean he goes as far as reaching out to Flowers for a blurb. Give me a break, the Giants make the first meaningful QB move in over a decade, and this idiot is trying to shit-stir up a story on the GM? Obviously next week would have been more appropriate. I guess he didn't want the other idiot Pat Leonard to beat him to it.
RE: I thought that they were offered a third for Collins last season? Â
he's angry that Gettleman lied to him and also angry that he didn't say anything to him. Both can't be true so which is it?
Also Gettleman never called him a problem to my recollection - that's people just stirring the pot. He's been pretty respectful of all the guys that have left individually, though he has made illusions to changing the culture (which I suspect is much more of a reflection of the Eli Apple/Snacks/Flowers group than LC).
Loved Collins as a Giant, wish we could have brought him back, but not at that contract (which he should be thanking DG for letting him get w/o franchise tag drama). I'll take the 3rd and cap room. If you go back 12-18 months I probably posted that I wanted him back or tagged so I guess that makes me a liar in his book too.
We're talking Resume Dave here. The guy who is so insecure he has to remind everyone who will listen about all of his Canton achievements. The same guy who consistently contradicts himself publicly and looks and sounds like a complete incompetent fool doing it.
So this type of behavior - lack of professionalism - dealing with players is just par for the course. Gettleman is a bonafide jackass.
Regardless, what's done is done. Hopefully, he hasn't created enough stench around the organization that give free agents pause to come here.
Like we all know, Gettleman will be judged by two moves when the dust settles - the selection of Barkley and the selection of Jones.
We're talking Resume Dave here. The guy who is so insecure he has to remind everyone who will listen about all of his Canton achievements. The same guy who consistently contradicts himself publicly and looks and sounds like a complete incompetent fool doing it.
So this type of behavior - lack of professionalism - dealing with players is just par for the course. Gettleman is a bonafide jackass.
Regardless, what's done is done. Hopefully, he hasn't created enough stench around the organization that give free agents pause to come here.
Like we all know, Gettleman will be judged by two moves when the dust settles - the selection of Barkley and the selection of Jones.
There's no lack of surprise with this post - that's for sure.
RE: RE: RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
well he gave the Eagles a 4th round comp pick for Tate...so lets not make it like DG is a master here.
Not that it matters in the context of this discussion as DG didnt know Tate would be suspended for 4 games; but I read somewhere the suspension does screw up the Eagles plan on getting a decent compensation pick for Tate
needs to tip his hand when it comes to player contracts, trades, movement on and off the team
he has to do what's best for the Giants
many of you used to excoriate Reese for tipping his hand -- and yet there were players unhappy with him too -- like Shockey, like Strahan, like Osi --
this contract stuff is about jockeying for position -- you can't be showing your hand all the time
I think Collins is sour grapes because he didn't get what he wanted. By the way -- OBJ was sour grapes and he did get what he wanted. It all seems to point to the "bad culture" that was manifest here. A lot of young spoiled millionaire brats that find ways to feel disrespected because their ego didn't get stroked as part of a business decision. Sheesh!
There's a real lack of thick skin in all this, in my humble opinion, jstfu and grow a set
Collins is too sensitive.
Collins is not worth the contract he got from the skins, good to not pay him that.
Collins led the giants defense to the only relevant Giants season in 6 years- people like to pretend 2016 didnt happen because the 2 best players were collins and obj and the coach everyone hates was actually great in key situations.
Gettleman is not a great communicator and its obvious a lot of ex players dont enjoy him- which as a fan who cares but it doesnt mean they are wrong on his personality.
gettleman has made some good decisions... and gettleman has made some bad decisions... jury is still out and dependent on Jones.
Only the Redkins can give a guy 80 million dollars Â
And I'll be honest,for a guy who wanted to remain a Giant this bad.Where we constantly gotta hear these type of comments.It sure didn't take long for him to sign with the team in which his childhood idol played for.That deal was done rather quickly.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
He wouldn't give up a 4th to overpaid an at best mediocre Alec Ogletree. He wouldn't give Solder the highest paying contract for an LT.
BBI needs to stop the WWBD - because Belichick is in his own league. He's earned the right to be different, he's got the results to prove it.
Gettleman doesn't have to be best buds with these guys - but being straight up and telling someone they're out isn't too much to ask either.
No. BBI, the Giants, and every other team in the league NEEDS to say WWBD because "Belichick is in his own league". What's the argument here, we shouldn't try to do what works? He's gotten results BECAUSE he does it differently.
What I agree with you on is that he's earned the ability to get players cheaper than other teams because he wins. Therefore, he gets player's at a discount because they want to win. Bill isn't desperate for an ILB or LT. He's never desperate for any position because he's that good at what he does so he, again, doesn't have to overpay.
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
1. Collins has always talked too much
2. He does one thing very well
3. Does anyone here think DG should have shelled out 84mil for a one dimensional player.
4. Collins should thank the DG for not franchising him
5. Collins is showing you why DG didn’t want to franchise him
6. Why can’t the young man move on. The Giants did (easily)
It doesn't seem hard to imagine though that Gettleman is probably a tough nut to deal with in closed door conversations. He probably talks a lot and brings up all ranges of possibilities so nobody can pin him down on his thoughts on any particular topic. And when pressed he probably just falls back to some general statement that he is going to do what's best for the Giants.
And he probably does it all with some sense of superiority coming thru in his tone. Imagine this is what pisses the players/agents off the most. This may or may not actually be a successful approach in dealing with player's and their contracts.
In the end, the only thing that matters is whether the teams he puts on the field are successful.
Collins is currently number NINE in league in tackles
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
You can’t make a lot of tackles when they throw the ball to the guy you’re covering all the time. The redskins defense hasn’t been any good so far
No one gave Collins 80 million. He got a two year contract for about 32 million. He'll never see a dime past that unless it's on a new contract. That's a lot of money but people need to stop buying the NFL bullshit about contract values and learn how the business works.
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
RE: RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
No one gave Collins 80 million. He got a two year contract for about 32 million. He'll never see a dime past that unless it's on a new contract. That's a lot of money but people need to stop buying the NFL bullshit about contract values and learn how the business works.
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
Strange that you felt the need to correct that statement,are you another Big Blue Skins fan?
Because brutal honesty makes you question your own opinions about yourself. Wait, how can you tell me I'm not as good as I think I am, of course I am as good as I think I am therefore you must be lying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
Collins didn’t bring up his Gettleman concerns with Mara and Tisch. He wanted to move on. But he later felt like he couldn’t, after how Gettleman characterized the Giants’ offseason house-cleaning moves.
“Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of.
And Collins isn’t wrong. Gettleman did talk negatively first before Collins made any comment.
because of the messenger. Angry bitter words from Collins, Norman and others may have ulterior motives, but no one can really look at DG's performance since coming back to the Giants and not acknowledge that he has done and said many things that are seemingly inconsistent or contradictory. Eli's treatment is just the latest example of the flip-flop from this guy. Love him, hate him, trust his "plan" --I don't really care but do not ignore the reality that he has yet to prove he is right for this job and the fact that his style is very different from Reese, does not mean he will prove to be the guy who can fix this team.
What is wrong with Eli's treatment?
RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
They didn't want to franchise him because they didn't want to potentially be on the hook for the salary it carries. I don't have a problem with that decision.
19 tackles, but only 1 TFL for a team ranked 31st against the run and 25th against the pass. I haven't paid attention to them much, but based on the numbers I assume most of these tackles are not impact plays. I wanted to keep Collins, but not at that price. Nowhere near it. He isn't enough of an impact player. The fact that he doesn't shut up now makes me glad he's gone
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
RE: I don’t want a GM who’s bros with the players like Reese was Â
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
That's what is being glossed over. And it wasn't like he was out of work a year or so.
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.
Most people said Collins could not cover and virtually NOBODY here wanted to pay Collins the money he was asking for.
Suddenly after OBJ is traded and Peppers ends up here during the transaction... we have these people coming out of the woodwork who wanted to keep Collins now at what the Redskins paid him?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
Really? Dishonest??
Quote:
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
I stated a fact, that he was out of work. How exactly is that acting like he had a lengthy stint out of work? He wasn't employed currently. That's a fact. Your portrayal of me as dishonest is the only dishonesty in our two posts.
Everything for you is so black and white. People "do" or "don't do" analytics.
Quote:
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
People don't get fired just for one thing. And to a point made earlier on the thread if you want to convince someone of your point convince them. If you do get fired over one thing (and everything else is grand like you seem to be implying) then you were probably a huge asshole about that one thing. Doesn't mean the person on the other end of it wasn't also one, but, you work for that person. For someone who seems to care so much about people respecting his authority... he didn't get fired respecting his superior.
He's not some white knight hero for standing up for his desire to not move on from two players to a breaking point. He's not much different than the players bashing him in the media just people with pride and irreconcilable differences with former employers.
working for an owner who was forced to cede control of his team!!
An owner who increasingly made poor decisions to the point that when he left, he elevated a former cheerleader to the role of head of team operations! I've posted several articles where the Charlotte beats point to the Davis and Olsen situation being the reason for his firing.
I'd also like to know how many GM's or coaches are hired while they still are working?? He was hired by the Giants immediately after a season, the first time any team will make a change at GM.
And fuck you with the black and white analytics comment. It is actually YOU who is black and white. Let me remind you once again - that you asserted for months (and possibly still do) that Gettleman didn't have anything to do with analytics - and again I showed articles about him setting up the analytics program in Charlotte. You literally claimed he didn't use analytics!!
while still completely inaccurately calling me dishonest has disintegrated.
Not going to play in the mud with you anymore.
The owner getting outed is a red herring. That owner also hired him. Should we taint Gettleman for being also liked by that owner?
Wanting to completely absolve someone of blame after getting fired is a strange stance to take. But you are quite adept at dying on these strange analytical hills because you charge in insults blazing ready to tell the world how terrible their opinions are.
You and your buddy Gettleman, making the world a better place one prideful superfluous stand at a time.
“Analytics is the discovery, interpretation, and communication of meaningful patterns in data”
Many would call a pivot table that you talk over analytics. The comment was always about an NFL team with probably the best talent pool in the country not having people with the right qualifications to engage in the types of analytics some teams and many many businesses engage in. And if you remember I started talking about it after they were consistently messing up timeouts which is very simple applied game theory.
You insist I was making a point no one would ever make because you miss nuance when riding on such a high horse. Comparatively to the work going on around them in this city there is plenty of evidence (by me and other posters who work in this space) that the Giants are embarrassingly behind. The debate moved on to how much they should really be pursuing advanced analytics but you’ve got this masochistic way of harping on this where I honestly feel bad for you at this point.
dishonest. In how you portray things and certainly about analytics.
And the black and white in your world boils down to those who buy into your dishonest view of analytics as "getting it" while those who don't are screamed down with a ridiculous "Luddite" cry.
The real question is if you are dishonest out of a lack of intelligence, which certainly looks like the case many times.
So you can stop playing in the mud simply by stopping posting shit on the board.
It is in your control.
Awwww what’s the matter? Now you are upset that you Â
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
I don't think you get it. It's not a comparison, it's an aspiration. Every damn GM/HC in the league should aspire to do what Bill does. Is your philosophy to not bother trying to do things like him? Is the only way to fix it to find a different way to do it or to do what is proven to work? Bill didn't need a LT as bad as the Giants. We know why Bill doesn't need any position as bad as any other team in the league. He has no trouble getting a replacement (GM) and/or can turn lemons into lemonade with the backups (HC).
I just don't get it. You are so sick of "comparisons" being made to Bill. I think we agree that Bill is the best at what he does so why wouldn't we want our GM/HC to emulate that?
conveniently leaves out this portion from the Charlotte Observer why Gettleman was fired:
Quote:
In interviews with more than a dozen team and league sources, the Observer learned that Gettleman’s brusque management style – which had made him unpopular with some Carolina players from his earliest days as GM – had begun to wear thin throughout the organization.
Some staffers also didn’t like how Gettleman reshaped the roster following the 2015 Super Bowl season, leaving yawning gaps in the secondary and along the offensive line that were exposed during a 6-10 campaign last year.
So while the Olson/Davis situations were factors, there was more to the story.
Meanwhile, FMiC conveniently glosses over how DG was hired here. Accorsi, his dear old friend, was tasked by Mara to find a GM who could restore the team back to the “Giants Way” after Mara fired Reese and McAdoo for carrying out Mara’s plan to bench Eli to the letter. Accorsi spent about five minutes calling DG, booking his flight for the “interview”, and prepping him how to seal the deal with Mara.
So let’s not act like DG got scooped up in a few months because there was some great demand for DG. Let’s face it, in the world of NFL GM’s, DG is an old man. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume there was not going to be this great market for DG. At the end of the day, he was the beneficiary of fortune timing and serendipity at Jints Central...
Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Eli was offering $10M for any team willing to trade Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent. Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Where does it say he told Flowers something?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
Quote:
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
RE: Awwww what’s the matter? Now you are upset that you Â
can’t annoy me anymore and you want me to go away?
No sorry.
Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
What the fuck are you talking about?
A dishonest view of analytics is taking a snippet from a press conference and saying that Gettleman shuns analytics and then after being shown he implemented the analytics program in Carolina, going through a bunch of gymnastics to say "well, it isn't the right analytics".
Dishonest in analytics is also taking the view that PFF actually has something to contribute because it is "data". It isn't. It is all qualitative analysis that is done by subjective criteria. That isn't data and it is about as anti-analytics as one can get.
The funniest thing about our debates is that I'm pro-analytics and you call me a luddite. Why? Because you are a fucking moron.
Fatman...keep fighting the good fight. Not all data is good data. Â
Or relevant. Football is a sport that has so many moving pieces that you can' t just break down analytically. Not yet at least. Football needs to be treated like the stock market, it is a science AND an art.
When you are down 14 late in the game what do the analytics say? Go for two each time you score. Well what if your QB has the flu and his game looks off. Your kicker is perfect on the year extra points. Do you still go for it?
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
What do you think analyst estimates are? Is that not data because there are qualitative inputs?
There isn't a right and wrong analytics. I've suggested that other than on field evidence (ala applied game theory) the qualifications of the people building them and yes even the culture in the building and the way the leaders speak are also good markers for if there are likely the right processes in place to build great teach. McL went as far as to look up github libraries and found no code from the Giants but many other teams.
You act like i'm just being some arbiter of analytics when unsurprisingly the people that work in analytics have brought a lot of evidence to the table and you just bombastic skeptic garbage.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
Quote:
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
What? How the hell does that artistically prove ME wrong? It plainly states that the Pats wanted to bring him back. And offered a competitive offer as the Giants. The only difference was it was incentive based. Solder has said this. You’re acting as if the Pats had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did! Is it really shocking that another team would have to outbid New England if they wanted him? How the hell does that make the Giants incompetent and the Pats brilliant? The Pats wanted him back. The Giants didn’t have the luxury of making demands on incentives. That’s how free agency works. Stop acting like they had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
God this so much. Often PFF will be the complete opposite of what the team grades are. What qualifications do the people have that do the scoring? That doesn't even deal with the obvious flaws anyone with a functioning brain can see in their plus minus scale that they explain on their site. CC was able to use his SNF platform to shoehorn PFF grades into the game, and the networks can tell the dummy on the couch eats that shit up so he has something to argue about with his friends. It has no actual bearing on its effectiveness, its a made for TV rating.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Solder's play since the second half of last season has been very good. But keep banging the drum its a dog shit contract. The Patriots would have kept paying him that money because their was no reason for them to opt out the contract based on the incentives he was likely to earn, whether it was playing time based or performance.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Did the Pats make him an offer that would have made him one of the highest paid tackles in football? Were there also multiple other teams competing for him? Simple answers. Yes or no. You hate Gettleman. We get it. Bringing up Beckham is completely fucking useless in this discussion. So because Beckham decided to double down on his nonsense after signing his contract, every move Gettleman makes is therefore terrible?
You didn’t like the hire and have been a miserable fuck ever since. Instead of making shit up like the Pats didn’t have any interest in bringing Solder back, maybe just take a break from the team? Gettleman will be gone soon and then you’ll have someone else to bitch about constantly. That’s the story of your miserable life.
the ratings are smaller questions like grading plays.
Ernie Banks started with the Patriots almost two decades ago to build value based systems. This data amongt a lot of other data is potentially useful within the spectrum of a value based or team construction analysis.
Regardless you are again trying to pull us away from the main point which is the Giants still don’t have people with the proper backgrounds to build good predictive systems like I posted in a different thread there are single members of the PFF team with far better qualifications than anyone in the Giants organization.
Christian pointed out on another thread that he knows the space well and PFF has made leaps. The issue is that we haven’t even started the process of building a team that can build advanced predictive systems and perhaps worse yet we aren’t evolving to integrate that information into our process in a unique way that could give us an advantage even if we were purchasing the best data. And that’s why you invest in these systems because they aren’t good overnight and even harder when your talent is inferior in number, experience and education.
Also just to point out where we are debating, on a thread where there is evidence of how poorly it goes for all parties involved when you challenge the all powerful DG. Especially after that quote bw posted can you honestly say that DG seems like a guy that knows how to foster real innovation?
The issue is that we haven’t even started the process of building a team that can build advanced predictive systems and perhaps worse yet we aren’t evolving to integrate that information into our process in a unique way that could give us an advantage even if we were purchasing the best data. And that’s why you invest in these systems because they aren’t good overnight and even harder when your talent is inferior in number, experience and education.
We have a team in place! And the offseason had several articles and mentions of how the Giants are integrating analytics into player selection for roster construction and in gameplay. But you keep beating the drum that because Tyseer Siam came from a healthcare background that he can't be part of a good analytics team. And you stick by it like a cluelessly ignorant moron.
You also said many times that Shurmur's in game decisions, specifically on 4th down showed a lack of grasping analytics. Guess what, Sherlock? This directly opposes your consistently shit take:
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How analytics have impacted the Giants' in-game strategy
There is also evidence to suggest the Giants have and continue to use analytics during their in-game process and not only in their roster-building strategy.
An analytical study pinpointed by Ben Baldwin on Twitter suggests the Giants were one of the most forward-thinking franchises in the NFL when it came to going for it on fourth down under head coach Pat Shurmur. The analytics dictate certain situations where the Giants and any other NFL offense should opt to go for it on fourth down. The Giants adhered to these analytics more than almost any NFL team in 2018.
Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Where does it say he told Flowers something?
It's implied from Flowers' comment about asking for clarity. Seems that he was at least given the impression that Gettleman was trying to move him.
His reasons for missing voluntary workouts could very well be bullshit, but it's clear that he wanted to be traded and that he was expecting it to happen.
You don't often hear this many ex-players absolutely hate their former GM. One stop is maybe a bad situation, but this is his second stop as a GM and everyone on the way out has nothing but bad things to say about him.
For a guy wrapped around a pole about culture, maybe a good look at himself and how he treats people would be a good contribution.
I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the Giants org. What I'd like to know is what value system output that paying and then kicking money to Solder, paying Jenkins 15M this year, paying Tate, paying Martin, Omameh, Stewart and paying Manning 23M to be a stop gap, were good decisions.
Spare me the "what other choice did they have," "shoring up the culture," "coach in the locker room," lines -- were those value based decisions?
It’s not in his job description to be buddy buddy with the players.
This X ten
Essentially they’re just whining because they expected to be treated like celebrities, and DG didn’t give them a bouquet of flowers as a parting gift
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
In the end I don’t care, I just find it odd that he keeps talking about it.
If you'd read the actual article you know it's not about that.
Instead we pay Ogletree a ton who can’t do either.
Btw, I just looked at his contract and he had a 6mil roster bonus this year.
Listen, he needs to move on, but Collins was one of the leaders on the team and if DG couldn't reach out to him at all during the off-season, even if it was to say "we appreciate everything you did here, but you do not fit into our future plans", that just isn't right.
Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't mean for her to do that
😳
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Especially a guy like Collins who got paid this off-season. Dude, you got paid well more than you are worth and instead of focusing on how to make your current team better (last I checked, the Skins are 0-2 as well), you would rather throw shots at your former team.
If you'd read the actual article you know it's not about that.
Yeah, after I wrote this comment, I went back and read the article.
Should Collins move on? Well yeah, obviously. But that stands apart from the fact that we have a GM who's an insufferable douche.
Like I said earlier, if he's an insufferable douche who can deliver a winning roster than it wouldn't be much of a problem. But since he's not doing that, well... it's just not a good look.
But hey, let's stick our head in the sand and just laugh at Collins and others while the Giants' organization stays a dumpster fire year after year.
Is it possible that maybe not all of them were so rotten? Maybe it just made it easier to justify blowing the whole thing up?
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
He could make all the same moves and still handle it better.
He should be fined accordingly.
Collins got the "Giants treatment" which is far older than he most of you commenting on this: you get rid of a player that might come back and haunt you, you trash him going out the door for being choose one: disloyal, complaining, a locker room cancer. They did it with Harrison, Collins, OBJ etc.
These comments from players merely confirm that he's an a-hole.
As others have said, be a dick all you want, but you better back it up with wins. So far, he's not looking too smart.
You see, I don't think people understand that, "liked by teammates" DOES NOT make them a team player.
We've all worked with that guy/girl. I see it all the time. The water cooler talk. I see people that are good at what they do, BUT, they also complain about their supervisor, manager, ect for everything under the sun to all their co-workers. Their co-workers, who look up to them, eat this stuff up. It undermines leaderships and kills the morale towards the organization. People lose faith in their leaders because they actually believe the class clown knows best.
I've been both the class clown and the leader. I've seen it and dealt with it. If you talk to them about it and they can't stop doing it, you cut them loose for the good of your team. They are toxic and will destroy your organization.
I've got two names for you; OBJ and Collins. Every time they open their mouth complaining about the Giants is further proof that both of these players are team killers. Both of them need to learn that the first place they should point their finger is at the mirror BEFORE ever pointing it at anybody else.
But the bigger point is, when have you heard this many players hate a former GM? I don't think I've ever seen this in the NFL and it's across 2 trans me that multiple players feel disrespected and lied to the way Gettleman has handled them. You can think whatever you want about each individual case, but stuff like that gets around the league and player circles. Everyone talks about how much cap space we will have next year, well stuff like this could hurt our chances with the top tier free agents, or at least cause is to pay an "asshole tax," if you will.
If in your industry, there was an employer that everyone who left had terrible things to say about the boss, wouldn't you be less likely to work for them, or at least require higher compensation to do so?
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
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Collins may talk too much, but this does not reflect well on Gettleman. Stuff like this:
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
ok, so which is true? If Collins is calling DG a liar, he must have spoken with him. If he has never spoken to him, how can he know if he has lied. Either way, Collins isn't being truthful here. Ironic based on his accusation.
Uuuh... could be refering to things DG said ABOUT him... Not that hard to understand, I thought?
Because he's an asshole and his track record as a GM is very questionable?
This is right.
These comments from players merely confirm that he's an a-hole.
As others have said, be a dick all you want, but you better back it up with wins. So far, he's not looking too smart.
I don't care if he comes off as an asshole.
My problem is he normally doesn't sound very smart. A lot of the things he says are just plain stupid. Either because he's trying to be funny, or because he thinks he's smarter than everyone in the room.
For an organization that launched Parcells to forget that you 'are what your record says you are', some humility would be in order.
I also think people expect teamwork from the players, but somehow refuse to hold the leadership of the team accountable for their behavior. Being a good leader means breaking the hard news sometimes, like telling Landon Collins to his face that although he was a good player for the team, you've decided to go a different route.
Nothing excuses Collins from acting like a jilted lover after he left, but a lot of these players seem to have the same recurring complaints about Gettleman, and now that spans two organizations. Either all of these guys are whiny assholes, or maybe they have a point about Gettleman.
And before anyone's quick to dismiss that, just remember - money talks, but trust is important. Given a similar opportunity in two different organizations, a player will use intangibles to make their decision. If they don't trust the man in charge, that decision becomes pretty simple.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
Now, I think all the pressure is on Gettleman and Shurmur in 2020. I think Mara will give them the grace period that it wasn't a one year turnaround. If the Giants continue to struggle in 2020 and don't make the playoffs, with 3 Gettleman drafts, a ton of cap space and Daniel Jones with game experience under his belt, then the Giants need to show him and Shurmur the door.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
So far he's much better known as the Talent Extractor
You should care about how the leader of an organization treats his people. Before too long, there won't be any good ones left to mistreat. Even a shitty employee needs to be given the same respect as everyone else, if only to show the rest of the rank and file that you're not petty.
I think Collins ego took a hit. I’m still pissed he dropped the INT against NE in 2015. Would have gotten us to 6-4 and maybe we win the division.
The jury is still out on the job DG is doing, but I don’t care if he’s not warm and fuzzy with these guys
has 60 million to spend this offseason, team really is not as far off as people think
I was about to post the same thought. Collins definitely claimed the Giants never spoke to him or his agent about a new contract.
Butt still hurt over this one huh? It would be a riot if she reads BBI and saw this.
The jury is still out on the job DG is doing, but I don’t care if he’s not warm and fuzzy with these guys
This.
Collins really, REALLY needs to let it go.
I could care less of his flippant or even disingenuous with the media. In fact, good for him! Yay!. Him mocking teams for "analytics' is less than insubstantial and the complaint is more in the minds of the hurt ones who take themselves far too seriously than grounded in reality. Basically, what he says in public means less than zero.
I do think he likely needs to be more communicative with his subordinates though, especially as he is moving them out (tasking some of these commenters in the article at their word). But, moving them out is well within his purview and in pretty much every case I can think of, more than justifiable.
Wrt Collins specifically, he didn't fit what they want at the price Collins wanted. As far as "lumping him in with the distractions" I didn't see DG specifically single Collins out in this vein. Not sure why he has to specifically say "except for Landon" in his every sentence either. On the subject itself, I actually would think that running to the papers to disparage a teammate (even if the teammate was an abominable teammate) is a distraction for the GM to deal with .
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Broke up with me in 7th grade. Eventually I moved on. One day Landon will too.
Butt still hurt over this one huh? It would be a riot if she reads BBI and saw this.
Still cry myself to sleep over it once a week :-) And no, I'm fairly certain she doesn't even know the Giants are a professional sports team.
Now, I think all the pressure is on Gettleman and Shurmur in 2020. I think Mara will give them the grace period that it wasn't a one year turnaround. If the Giants continue to struggle in 2020 and don't make the playoffs, with 3 Gettleman drafts, a ton of cap space and Daniel Jones with game experience under his belt, then the Giants need to show him and Shurmur the door.
I think Gettleman gets 2020, but I’m not so sure about Shurmur. I think PS has to prove himself in the next 14 games.
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In comment 14587237 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Broke up with me in 7th grade. Eventually I moved on. One day Landon will too.
Butt still hurt over this one huh? It would be a riot if she reads BBI and saw this.
Still cry myself to sleep over it once a week :-) And no, I'm fairly certain she doesn't even know the Giants are a professional sports team.
Pics or GTFO...
The jury is still out on the job DG is doing, but I don’t care if he’s not warm and fuzzy with these guys
Reese was bros with the players? Tell that to Shockey. He kept his distance too.
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divas (Norman, Smith, Collins, OBJ) that have come out and complained about DG cutting them loose. If that means other divas will think twice about signing with the Giants, GOOD! I don't want them here.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
So far he's much better known as the Talent Extractor
You should care about how the leader of an organization treats his people. Before too long, there won't be any good ones left to mistreat. Even a shitty employee needs to be given the same respect as everyone else, if only to show the rest of the rank and file that you're not petty.
I see a leader sending a message to the team that no one person is above the team. I see one that won't overlook shit behavior because of talent. There was a cancer on this team and he's cutting it out. As for how the team is playing now, recovery takes time.
Would Bill Belichick have tolerated any of this? I guarantee that Antonio Brown will either straighten up and fly right or Bill will cut him loose.
Not when those former players are ticking time bombs.
What this boils down to was Landon Collins needed someone to give him a big hug and he didn't get that. The NFL is a business. You are a grown man, Landon. Try acting like one.
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
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In comment 14587291 USAF NYG Fan said:
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divas (Norman, Smith, Collins, OBJ) that have come out and complained about DG cutting them loose. If that means other divas will think twice about signing with the Giants, GOOD! I don't want them here.
Dave Gettleman, Diva Remover. I'm good with that.
So far he's much better known as the Talent Extractor
You should care about how the leader of an organization treats his people. Before too long, there won't be any good ones left to mistreat. Even a shitty employee needs to be given the same respect as everyone else, if only to show the rest of the rank and file that you're not petty.
I see a leader sending a message to the team that no one person is above the team. I see one that won't overlook shit behavior because of talent. There was a cancer on this team and he's cutting it out. As for how the team is playing now, recovery takes time.
Would Bill Belichick have tolerated any of this? I guarantee that Antonio Brown will either straighten up and fly right or Bill will cut him loose.
You know what else Bill Belichick wouldn't do?
He wouldn't give up a 4th to overpaid an at best mediocre Alec Ogletree. He wouldn't give Solder the highest paying contract for an LT.
BBI needs to stop the WWBD - because Belichick is in his own league. He's earned the right to be different, he's got the results to prove it.
Gettleman doesn't have to be best buds with these guys - but being straight up and telling someone they're out isn't too much to ask either.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
Wow - he's NUMBER NINE in tackles after two games.
Guess where his defense ranks? 30th. They can't stop anyone. Neither could the Giants for most of the time he was here. We had a good defense one of the four years he played here - but sure, he's certainly the missing link.
Some of these takes... oy vey.
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In comment 14587217 madeinstars said:
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Collins may talk too much, but this does not reflect well on Gettleman. Stuff like this:
"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
And:
Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of."
Is just a bad look. All in all it paints a picture as Gettleman as a real cowardly douchebag.
Now I can handle a cowardly douchebag as a GM, if he delivers wins, but if he can't even do that...
ok, so which is true? If Collins is calling DG a liar, he must have spoken with him. If he has never spoken to him, how can he know if he has lied. Either way, Collins isn't being truthful here. Ironic based on his accusation.
Uuuh... could be refering to things DG said ABOUT him... Not that hard to understand, I thought?
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
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"If you can’t pay me, you can’t keep me, or I’m not what you’re looking for with your future, all right. Just let me know. It’s all good. I haven’t talked to this man not one time. The handling of it was horrible.”
Listen, he needs to move on, but Collins was one of the leaders on the team and if DG couldn't reach out to him at all during the off-season, even if it was to say "we appreciate everything you did here, but you do not fit into our future plans", that just isn't right.
Yes. DG has shown time and time again to be completely unprofessional. He is a terrible representative of the Giants and would not last a day in a real job in the real world.
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Collins is currently number NINE in league in tackles
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
Wow - he's NUMBER NINE in tackles after two games.
Guess where his defense ranks? 30th. They can't stop anyone. Neither could the Giants for most of the time he was here. We had a good defense one of the four years he played here - but sure, he's certainly the missing link.
Some of these takes... oy vey.
I do think that we all recognize that Landon is very skilled and an excellent tackler. That ranking doesn't surprise me at all. The concern here was that he was poor in coverage and that our scheme needed something that...wasn't that. How have his cover skills been in the first 2 games? That doesn't show up in the tackle stats.
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that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
well he gave the Eagles a 4th round comp pick for Tate...so lets not make it like DG is a master here.
Smart move by DG
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In comment 14587388 mikeinbloomfield said:
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that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
well he gave the Eagles a 4th round comp pick for Tate...so lets not make it like DG is a master here.
You also apparently don't understand how the formula works.
He didn't "give" the Eagles anything.
But for Collins it is an indicator of how good he is?
How good does Washington's D look with one of the highest priced defensive backfields in the NFL?
IIRC, they weren't even offered a 3rd from anyone - I believe it was a 4th.
But for Collins it is an indicator of how good he is?
How good does Washington's D look with one of the highest priced defensive backfields in the NFL?
9th in the NFL in tackles in 2 games... for the 30th ranked defense in football. This is supposed to tell us that Landon Collins is sorely missed.
I mean, there's reaching and then there's this. It's amazing, isn't it?
Also Gettleman never called him a problem to my recollection - that's people just stirring the pot. He's been pretty respectful of all the guys that have left individually, though he has made illusions to changing the culture (which I suspect is much more of a reflection of the Eli Apple/Snacks/Flowers group than LC).
Loved Collins as a Giant, wish we could have brought him back, but not at that contract (which he should be thanking DG for letting him get w/o franchise tag drama). I'll take the 3rd and cap room. If you go back 12-18 months I probably posted that I wanted him back or tagged so I guess that makes me a liar in his book too.
So this type of behavior - lack of professionalism - dealing with players is just par for the course. Gettleman is a bonafide jackass.
Regardless, what's done is done. Hopefully, he hasn't created enough stench around the organization that give free agents pause to come here.
Like we all know, Gettleman will be judged by two moves when the dust settles - the selection of Barkley and the selection of Jones.
I wonder who they were from and what they were for. First time I'd heard this rumor.
So this type of behavior - lack of professionalism - dealing with players is just par for the course. Gettleman is a bonafide jackass.
Regardless, what's done is done. Hopefully, he hasn't created enough stench around the organization that give free agents pause to come here.
Like we all know, Gettleman will be judged by two moves when the dust settles - the selection of Barkley and the selection of Jones.
There's no lack of surprise with this post - that's for sure.
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In comment 14587388 mikeinbloomfield said:
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that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Maybe familiarize yourself with the comp pick formula. The Patriots have been utilizing this for years.
We didn't get "zero" for Collins.
well he gave the Eagles a 4th round comp pick for Tate...so lets not make it like DG is a master here.
Not that it matters in the context of this discussion as DG didnt know Tate would be suspended for 4 games; but I read somewhere the suspension does screw up the Eagles plan on getting a decent compensation pick for Tate
he has to do what's best for the Giants
many of you used to excoriate Reese for tipping his hand -- and yet there were players unhappy with him too -- like Shockey, like Strahan, like Osi --
this contract stuff is about jockeying for position -- you can't be showing your hand all the time
I think Collins is sour grapes because he didn't get what he wanted. By the way -- OBJ was sour grapes and he did get what he wanted. It all seems to point to the "bad culture" that was manifest here. A lot of young spoiled millionaire brats that find ways to feel disrespected because their ego didn't get stroked as part of a business decision. Sheesh!
There's a real lack of thick skin in all this, in my humble opinion, jstfu and grow a set
You should be more concerned with the fact that you've made determinations after just two games.
Awful take.
Collins is not worth the contract he got from the skins, good to not pay him that.
Collins led the giants defense to the only relevant Giants season in 6 years- people like to pretend 2016 didnt happen because the 2 best players were collins and obj and the coach everyone hates was actually great in key situations.
Gettleman is not a great communicator and its obvious a lot of ex players dont enjoy him- which as a fan who cares but it doesnt mean they are wrong on his personality.
gettleman has made some good decisions... and gettleman has made some bad decisions... jury is still out and dependent on Jones.
And I'll be honest,for a guy who wanted to remain a Giant this bad.Where we constantly gotta hear these type of comments.It sure didn't take long for him to sign with the team in which his childhood idol played for.That deal was done rather quickly.
He wouldn't give up a 4th to overpaid an at best mediocre Alec Ogletree. He wouldn't give Solder the highest paying contract for an LT.
BBI needs to stop the WWBD - because Belichick is in his own league. He's earned the right to be different, he's got the results to prove it.
Gettleman doesn't have to be best buds with these guys - but being straight up and telling someone they're out isn't too much to ask either.
No. BBI, the Giants, and every other team in the league NEEDS to say WWBD because "Belichick is in his own league". What's the argument here, we shouldn't try to do what works? He's gotten results BECAUSE he does it differently.
What I agree with you on is that he's earned the ability to get players cheaper than other teams because he wins. Therefore, he gets player's at a discount because they want to win. Bill isn't desperate for an ILB or LT. He's never desperate for any position because he's that good at what he does so he, again, doesn't have to overpay.
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
Zero return except for the a 3rd round draft choice and $84m in cap space.
2. He does one thing very well
3. Does anyone here think DG should have shelled out 84mil for a one dimensional player.
4. Collins should thank the DG for not franchising him
5. Collins is showing you why DG didn’t want to franchise him
6. Why can’t the young man move on. The Giants did (easily)
It doesn't seem hard to imagine though that Gettleman is probably a tough nut to deal with in closed door conversations. He probably talks a lot and brings up all ranges of possibilities so nobody can pin him down on his thoughts on any particular topic. And when pressed he probably just falls back to some general statement that he is going to do what's best for the Giants.
And he probably does it all with some sense of superiority coming thru in his tone. Imagine this is what pisses the players/agents off the most. This may or may not actually be a successful approach in dealing with player's and their contracts.
In the end, the only thing that matters is whether the teams he puts on the field are successful.
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
You can’t make a lot of tackles when they throw the ball to the guy you’re covering all the time. The redskins defense hasn’t been any good so far
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
This! I'm surprised this doesn't get talked about more.
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
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He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
I don't believe that's been corroborated by anyone reliable. Or at least, no one I know of.
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
Strange that you felt the need to correct that statement,are you another Big Blue Skins fan?
+1
"If they never are required to exceed a maturity level of a 12yr old, why would they?"
-Me, probably around 2009
I don't care if DG misleads players to get the best out of them in the short term with an eye to replacing them in the future. That's his job.
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In comment 14587727 arcarsenal said:
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He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
I don't believe that's been corroborated by anyone reliable. Or at least, no one I know of.
I believe Gettleman said he did get offers for LC but didn't take them because how it would have impacted the locker room.
“Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of.
And Collins isn’t wrong. Gettleman did talk negatively first before Collins made any comment.
didn't read through the whole thread, not sure if anyone pointed that out
see article below
Link - ( New Window )
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
The jury is still out on the job DG is doing, but I don’t care if he’s not warm and fuzzy with these guys
I read somewhere that's why he isn't. Makes it harder to make those decisions if you're chummy with players.
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
That's what is being glossed over. And it wasn't like he was out of work a year or so.
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
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Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
Most people said Collins could not cover and virtually NOBODY here wanted to pay Collins the money he was asking for.
Suddenly after OBJ is traded and Peppers ends up here during the transaction... we have these people coming out of the woodwork who wanted to keep Collins now at what the Redskins paid him?
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In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:
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Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent.
Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
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also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
Really? Dishonest??
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
I stated a fact, that he was out of work. How exactly is that acting like he had a lengthy stint out of work? He wasn't employed currently. That's a fact. Your portrayal of me as dishonest is the only dishonesty in our two posts.
Everything for you is so black and white. People "do" or "don't do" analytics.
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
People don't get fired just for one thing. And to a point made earlier on the thread if you want to convince someone of your point convince them. If you do get fired over one thing (and everything else is grand like you seem to be implying) then you were probably a huge asshole about that one thing. Doesn't mean the person on the other end of it wasn't also one, but, you work for that person. For someone who seems to care so much about people respecting his authority... he didn't get fired respecting his superior.
He's not some white knight hero for standing up for his desire to not move on from two players to a breaking point. He's not much different than the players bashing him in the media just people with pride and irreconcilable differences with former employers.
An owner who increasingly made poor decisions to the point that when he left, he elevated a former cheerleader to the role of head of team operations! I've posted several articles where the Charlotte beats point to the Davis and Olsen situation being the reason for his firing.
I'd also like to know how many GM's or coaches are hired while they still are working?? He was hired by the Giants immediately after a season, the first time any team will make a change at GM.
And fuck you with the black and white analytics comment. It is actually YOU who is black and white. Let me remind you once again - that you asserted for months (and possibly still do) that Gettleman didn't have anything to do with analytics - and again I showed articles about him setting up the analytics program in Charlotte. You literally claimed he didn't use analytics!!
You are absolutely a fucking joke.
Not going to play in the mud with you anymore.
The owner getting outed is a red herring. That owner also hired him. Should we taint Gettleman for being also liked by that owner?
Wanting to completely absolve someone of blame after getting fired is a strange stance to take. But you are quite adept at dying on these strange analytical hills because you charge in insults blazing ready to tell the world how terrible their opinions are.
You and your buddy Gettleman, making the world a better place one prideful superfluous stand at a time.
Many would call a pivot table that you talk over analytics. The comment was always about an NFL team with probably the best talent pool in the country not having people with the right qualifications to engage in the types of analytics some teams and many many businesses engage in. And if you remember I started talking about it after they were consistently messing up timeouts which is very simple applied game theory.
You insist I was making a point no one would ever make because you miss nuance when riding on such a high horse. Comparatively to the work going on around them in this city there is plenty of evidence (by me and other posters who work in this space) that the Giants are embarrassingly behind. The debate moved on to how much they should really be pursuing advanced analytics but you’ve got this masochistic way of harping on this where I honestly feel bad for you at this point.
And the black and white in your world boils down to those who buy into your dishonest view of analytics as "getting it" while those who don't are screamed down with a ridiculous "Luddite" cry.
The real question is if you are dishonest out of a lack of intelligence, which certainly looks like the case many times.
So you can stop playing in the mud simply by stopping posting shit on the board.
It is in your control.
No sorry.
Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
I don't think you get it. It's not a comparison, it's an aspiration. Every damn GM/HC in the league should aspire to do what Bill does. Is your philosophy to not bother trying to do things like him? Is the only way to fix it to find a different way to do it or to do what is proven to work? Bill didn't need a LT as bad as the Giants. We know why Bill doesn't need any position as bad as any other team in the league. He has no trouble getting a replacement (GM) and/or can turn lemons into lemonade with the backups (HC).
I just don't get it. You are so sick of "comparisons" being made to Bill. I think we agree that Bill is the best at what he does so why wouldn't we want our GM/HC to emulate that?
Some staffers also didn’t like how Gettleman reshaped the roster following the 2015 Super Bowl season, leaving yawning gaps in the secondary and along the offensive line that were exposed during a 6-10 campaign last year.
So while the Olson/Davis situations were factors, there was more to the story.
Meanwhile, FMiC conveniently glosses over how DG was hired here. Accorsi, his dear old friend, was tasked by Mara to find a GM who could restore the team back to the “Giants Way” after Mara fired Reese and McAdoo for carrying out Mara’s plan to bench Eli to the letter. Accorsi spent about five minutes calling DG, booking his flight for the “interview”, and prepping him how to seal the deal with Mara.
So let’s not act like DG got scooped up in a few months because there was some great demand for DG. Let’s face it, in the world of NFL GM’s, DG is an old man. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume there was not going to be this great market for DG. At the end of the day, he was the beneficiary of fortune timing and serendipity at Jints Central...
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
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In comment 14588258 jcn56 said:
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In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:
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Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent. Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
Nate Solder disagrees...
Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
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Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Where does it say he told Flowers something?
Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
No sorry.
Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
What the fuck are you talking about?
A dishonest view of analytics is taking a snippet from a press conference and saying that Gettleman shuns analytics and then after being shown he implemented the analytics program in Carolina, going through a bunch of gymnastics to say "well, it isn't the right analytics".
Dishonest in analytics is also taking the view that PFF actually has something to contribute because it is "data". It isn't. It is all qualitative analysis that is done by subjective criteria. That isn't data and it is about as anti-analytics as one can get.
The funniest thing about our debates is that I'm pro-analytics and you call me a luddite. Why? Because you are a fucking moron.
When you are down 14 late in the game what do the analytics say? Go for two each time you score. Well what if your QB has the flu and his game looks off. Your kicker is perfect on the year extra points. Do you still go for it?
What do you think analyst estimates are? Is that not data because there are qualitative inputs?
There isn't a right and wrong analytics. I've suggested that other than on field evidence (ala applied game theory) the qualifications of the people building them and yes even the culture in the building and the way the leaders speak are also good markers for if there are likely the right processes in place to build great teach. McL went as far as to look up github libraries and found no code from the Giants but many other teams.
You act like i'm just being some arbiter of analytics when unsurprisingly the people that work in analytics have brought a lot of evidence to the table and you just bombastic skeptic garbage.
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Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
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As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
What? How the hell does that artistically prove ME wrong? It plainly states that the Pats wanted to bring him back. And offered a competitive offer as the Giants. The only difference was it was incentive based. Solder has said this. You’re acting as if the Pats had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did! Is it really shocking that another team would have to outbid New England if they wanted him? How the hell does that make the Giants incompetent and the Pats brilliant? The Pats wanted him back. The Giants didn’t have the luxury of making demands on incentives. That’s how free agency works. Stop acting like they had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
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Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
God this so much. Often PFF will be the complete opposite of what the team grades are. What qualifications do the people have that do the scoring? That doesn't even deal with the obvious flaws anyone with a functioning brain can see in their plus minus scale that they explain on their site. CC was able to use his SNF platform to shoehorn PFF grades into the game, and the networks can tell the dummy on the couch eats that shit up so he has something to argue about with his friends. It has no actual bearing on its effectiveness, its a made for TV rating.
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You pulled from the article...
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Solder's play since the second half of last season has been very good. But keep banging the drum its a dog shit contract. The Patriots would have kept paying him that money because their was no reason for them to opt out the contract based on the incentives he was likely to earn, whether it was playing time based or performance.
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You pulled from the article...
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Did the Pats make him an offer that would have made him one of the highest paid tackles in football? Were there also multiple other teams competing for him? Simple answers. Yes or no. You hate Gettleman. We get it. Bringing up Beckham is completely fucking useless in this discussion. So because Beckham decided to double down on his nonsense after signing his contract, every move Gettleman makes is therefore terrible?
You didn’t like the hire and have been a miserable fuck ever since. Instead of making shit up like the Pats didn’t have any interest in bringing Solder back, maybe just take a break from the team? Gettleman will be gone soon and then you’ll have someone else to bitch about constantly. That’s the story of your miserable life.
Ernie Banks started with the Patriots almost two decades ago to build value based systems. This data amongt a lot of other data is potentially useful within the spectrum of a value based or team construction analysis.
Regardless you are again trying to pull us away from the main point which is the Giants still don’t have people with the proper backgrounds to build good predictive systems like I posted in a different thread there are single members of the PFF team with far better qualifications than anyone in the Giants organization.
Christian pointed out on another thread that he knows the space well and PFF has made leaps. The issue is that we haven’t even started the process of building a team that can build advanced predictive systems and perhaps worse yet we aren’t evolving to integrate that information into our process in a unique way that could give us an advantage even if we were purchasing the best data. And that’s why you invest in these systems because they aren’t good overnight and even harder when your talent is inferior in number, experience and education.
Also just to point out where we are debating, on a thread where there is evidence of how poorly it goes for all parties involved when you challenge the all powerful DG. Especially after that quote bw posted can you honestly say that DG seems like a guy that knows how to foster real innovation?
We have a team in place! And the offseason had several articles and mentions of how the Giants are integrating analytics into player selection for roster construction and in gameplay. But you keep beating the drum that because Tyseer Siam came from a healthcare background that he can't be part of a good analytics team. And you stick by it like a cluelessly ignorant moron.
You also said many times that Shurmur's in game decisions, specifically on 4th down showed a lack of grasping analytics. Guess what, Sherlock? This directly opposes your consistently shit take:
There is also evidence to suggest the Giants have and continue to use analytics during their in-game process and not only in their roster-building strategy.
An analytical study pinpointed by Ben Baldwin on Twitter suggests the Giants were one of the most forward-thinking franchises in the NFL when it came to going for it on fourth down under head coach Pat Shurmur. The analytics dictate certain situations where the Giants and any other NFL offense should opt to go for it on fourth down. The Giants adhered to these analytics more than almost any NFL team in 2018.
The link to the full article is below. You might want to take a peek.
Giants Integrating Analytics - ( New Window )
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Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Where does it say he told Flowers something?
It's implied from Flowers' comment about asking for clarity. Seems that he was at least given the impression that Gettleman was trying to move him.
His reasons for missing voluntary workouts could very well be bullshit, but it's clear that he wanted to be traded and that he was expecting it to happen.
For a guy wrapped around a pole about culture, maybe a good look at himself and how he treats people would be a good contribution.
I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the Giants org. What I'd like to know is what value system output that paying and then kicking money to Solder, paying Jenkins 15M this year, paying Tate, paying Martin, Omameh, Stewart and paying Manning 23M to be a stop gap, were good decisions.
Spare me the "what other choice did they have," "shoring up the culture," "coach in the locker room," lines -- were those value based decisions?